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FW: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Question

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  • Mike Beedle
    ... Ron, Well said, I strongly agree. Separating people just gets us back to the past - the reductionist, hierarchical, highly-specialized approaches that
    Message 1 of 28 , Dec 2, 2004
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      Ron wisely commented:
      >Agile thinking might be more of a continuous space than a discrete one.

      Ron,

      Well said, I strongly agree. Separating people just gets us "back to the
      past" - the reductionist, hierarchical, highly-specialized approaches that
      got us here in the first place. It is human to classify, to put things in
      boxes... but sometimes that hurts us.

      Agile is about being whole.

      This is also why separating threads by "project management", "requirements",
      "design", "testing", ... etc. would also be the exact antithesis of Scrum
      and Agile.

      Agile is about all-at-once development, everyone-at-once (experts, good,
      average, or newbie) and (analysts, managers, developers, testers), people
      wearing many hats (everyone doing everything), and doing whatever it takes
      to fulfill your goals (not just playing a role).

      Agile is full of continuums, overlapping, inter-disciplinary techniques i.e.
      patterns, emergence from basic rules, and diversity. And it is about --lots
      of interaction--. The Scrum list is a melting pot of diverse
      contributors... it is agile the way it is -- a little bit at the "edge of
      chaos", as anything agile should be.

      This is also why I think "separating the wheat from the chaff" is a mistake.
      The chaff is the "chaos" that keeps us together, what makes friendships,
      what gets respect from one another at the personal level, what makes us
      laugh, and share mundane -- but important stories.

      In my opinion, general Scrum questions, practitioners questions, discussions
      of Scrum or Agile history, comparisons of agile methods, newbie questions,
      jokes, stories, opinions and even strong opinions, ... all have its place.

      I don't think we want to become such a list that every article on the Scrum
      list looks like a refereed article to be submitted to a conference. This
      would make us look rather academic... rather dull, rather standard. I do
      not advocate that direction. I prefer freedom, diversity, interaction, ...
      and... wholeness.

      My fear is that the managers in this list are trying to "manage the
      list"....

      My vote is:

      just let it be,

      The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to manage it,
      classify it, organize it, specialize it or put hierarchies on it.

      Yes, I fully trust self-organization,

      - Mike

      "All nature is but art unknown to thee,
      All chance, direction which thou canst not see;
      All discord, harmony not understood;
      All partial evil, universal good;
      And, spite of pride, in erring reason's spite,
      One truth is clear, Whatever is, is right."

      --Alexander Pope, An Essay on Man, Epistle i, 1. 284
    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Mike. We agree! That s scary! Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Show me the features!
      Message 2 of 28 , Dec 2, 2004
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        On Thursday, December 2, 2004, at 1:00:59 PM, Mike Beedle wrote:

        > The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to manage it,
        > classify it, organize it, specialize it or put hierarchies on it.

        > Yes, I fully trust self-organization,

        Mike. We agree! That's scary!

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Show me the features!
      • mike.dwyer1@comcast.net
        Mike / Ron. I need some help. How do we, as theoreticians, practitioners, advocates and participants share and pass our experiences to a growing community of
        Message 3 of 28 , Dec 2, 2004
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          Mike / Ron.
          I need some help.
           
          How do we, as theoreticians, practitioners, advocates and participants share and pass our experiences to a growing community of people who have heard what we are saying?
           
          How do we in one and at the same time, keep the pushing ourselves and each other as well as mentor and grow those who come to listen, learn and ask questions?
           
          Most important how do we involve the 'lurkers' so that they can, through their niave questions, check to make sure we are not wearing the emperor's clothes.
          --
          Mike Dwyer

          "I Keep six faithful serving-men
          Who serve me well and true:
          Their names are What and Where and When
          And How and Why and Who." - Kipling
           
          -------------- Original message --------------

          >
          >
          > Ron wisely commented:
          > >Agile thinking might be more of a continuous space than a discrete one.
          >
          > Ron,
          >
          > Well said, I strongly agree. Separating people just gets us "back to the
          > past" - the reductionist, hierarchical, highly-specialized approaches that
          > got us here in the first place. It is human to classify, to put things in
          > boxes... but sometimes that hurts us.
          >
          > Agile is about being whole.
          >
          > This is also why separating threads by "project management", "requirements",
          > "design", "testing", ... etc. would also be the exact antithesis of Scrum
          > and Agile.
          >
          > Agile is about all-at-once development, everyone-at-once (experts, good,
          > average, or newbie) and (analysts, managers, developers, testers), people
          > wearing many hats (everyone doing everything), and doing whatever it takes
          > to fulfill your goals (not just playing a role).
          >
          > Agile is full of continuums, overlapping, inter-disciplinary techniques i.e.
          > patterns, emergence from basic rules, and diversity. And it is about --lots
          > of interaction--. The Scrum list is a melting pot of diverse
          > contributors... it is agile the way it is -- a little bit at the "edge of
          > chaos", as anything agile should be.
          >
          > This is also why I think "separating the wheat from the chaff" is a mistake.
          > The chaff is the "chaos" that keeps us together, what makes friendships,
          > what gets respect from one another at the personal level, what makes us
          > laugh, and share mundane -- but important stories.
          >
          > In my opinion, general Scrum questions, practitioners questions, discussions
          > of Scrum or Agile history, comparisons of agile methods, newbie questions,
          > jokes, stories, opinions and even strong opinions, ... all have its place.
          >
          > I don't think we want to become such a list that every article on the Scrum
          > list looks like a refereed article to be submitted to a conference. This
          > would make us look rather academic... rather dull, rather standard. I do
          > not advocate that direction. I prefer freedom, diversity, interaction, ...
          > and... wholeness.
          >
          > My fear is that the managers in this list are trying to "manage the
          > list"....
          >
          > My vote is:
          >
          > just let it be,
          >
          > The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to manage it,
          > classify it, organize it, specialize it or put hierarchies on it.
          >
          > Yes, I fully trust self-organization,
          >
          > - Mike
          >
          > "All nature is but art unknown to thee,
          > All chance, direction which thou canst not see;
          > All discord, harmony not understood;
          > All partial evil, universal good;
          > And, spite of pride, in erring reason's spite,
          > One truth is clear, Whatever is, is right."
          >
          > --Alexander Pope, An Essay on Man, Epistle i, 1. 284
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Drew Miller
          Mike, Let me begin by saying that I share your opinion regarding compartmentalizing this list s people, ideas, and material. I think it is a bad idea. I am a
          Message 4 of 28 , Dec 2, 2004
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            Mike,

            Let me begin by saying that I share your opinion regarding compartmentalizing this list's people, ideas, and material. I think it is a bad idea. I am a lurker, a first-time poster, and have only one sprint under my belt (and in that one I was an engineer rather than a manager). I think I fit the profile that this discussion was intended to help.

            Having said all that, something you wrote in your post disturbed me. Naturally, it may be that I simply misconstrued your meaning (which is easy to do with this medium). Specifically:

            >The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to manage it,
            >classify it, organize it, specialize it or put hierarchies on it.

            Aren't those things, despite the fact that we both think they are bad, possible outcomes of self-organization? It almost seems that you are saying one hand, "The list will self-organize and I trust in that," but on the other hand, "do not self-organize this way." Certainly as members of the group we have a voice. But shouldn't we allow and participate in those things if this group collectively decided to do them, and let the mistakes bear themselves out? Or do some voices count more than others, and can said voices inhibit the remainder's organizational intentions? Who decides who those voices are? How can you make that decision without inhibiting self-organization?

            Regards,

            Drew Miller
            drew.miller@...
            A code grunt that longs to be a project manager
          • Michael Spayd
            Very subtle, Drew. Nicely done! Michael -- Michael K. Spayd COGILITY, LLC Business Mind, Social Heart michael.spayd@gmail.com 720.300.5286
            Message 5 of 28 , Dec 2, 2004
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              Very subtle, Drew. Nicely done!

              Michael


              --
              Michael K. Spayd
              COGILITY, LLC
              "Business Mind, Social Heart"
              michael.spayd@...
              720.300.5286

              On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:12:40 -0500, Drew Miller <drew.miller@...> wrote:
              > Mike,
              >
              > Let me begin by saying that I share your opinion regarding
              > compartmentalizing this list's people, ideas, and material. I think it is a
              > bad idea. I am a lurker, a first-time poster, and have only one sprint under
              > my belt (and in that one I was an engineer rather than a manager). I think I
              > fit the profile that this discussion was intended to help.
              >
              > Having said all that, something you wrote in your post disturbed me.
              > Naturally, it may be that I simply misconstrued your meaning (which is easy
              > to do with this medium). Specifically:
              >
              > >The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to manage it,
              > >classify it, organize it, specialize it or put hierarchies on it.
              >
              > Aren't those things, despite the fact that we both think they are bad,
              > possible outcomes of self-organization? It almost seems that you are saying
              > one hand, "The list will self-organize and I trust in that," but on the
              > other hand, "do not self-organize this way." Certainly as members of the
              > group we have a voice. But shouldn't we allow and participate in those
              > things if this group collectively decided to do them, and let the mistakes
              > bear themselves out? Or do some voices count more than others, and can said
              > voices inhibit the remainder's organizational intentions? Who decides who
              > those voices are? How can you make that decision without inhibiting
              > self-organization?
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Drew Miller
              > drew.miller@...
              > A code grunt that longs to be a project manager
              >
            • Deb
              Drew, I hereby (on no authority but my own) award you the Golden Pig of the Week. Notable mentions this week: - Boris Gloger for piloting the ScrumHelpDesk. -
              Message 6 of 28 , Dec 2, 2004
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                Drew, I hereby (on no authority but my own) award you the Golden Pig
                of the Week.

                Notable mentions this week:
                - Boris Gloger for piloting the ScrumHelpDesk.
                - Michael Spayed for piloting ScrumForums.com

                One good way to know is to try, and then inspect-and-adapt, as Drew
                has reminded us. (You see? We stand to benefit by inviting our lurkers
                in more often!)

                Oink!
                deb

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Michael Spayd
                <michael.spayd@g...> wrote:
                > Very subtle, Drew. Nicely done!
                >
                > Michael
                >
                >
                > --
                > Michael K. Spayd
                > COGILITY, LLC
                > "Business Mind, Social Heart"
                > michael.spayd@g...
                > 720.300.5286
                >
                > On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:12:40 -0500, Drew Miller <drew.miller@m...>
                wrote:
                > > Mike,
                > >
                > > Let me begin by saying that I share your opinion regarding
                > > compartmentalizing this list's people, ideas, and material. I
                think it is a
                > > bad idea. I am a lurker, a first-time poster, and have only one
                sprint under
                > > my belt (and in that one I was an engineer rather than a manager).
                I think I
                > > fit the profile that this discussion was intended to help.
                > >
                > > Having said all that, something you wrote in your post disturbed me.
                > > Naturally, it may be that I simply misconstrued your meaning
                (which is easy
                > > to do with this medium). Specifically:
                > >
                > > >The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to
                manage it,
                > > >classify it, organize it, specialize it or put hierarchies on it.
                > >
                > > Aren't those things, despite the fact that we both think they are bad,
                > > possible outcomes of self-organization? It almost seems that you
                are saying
                > > one hand, "The list will self-organize and I trust in that," but
                on the
                > > other hand, "do not self-organize this way." Certainly as members
                of the
                > > group we have a voice. But shouldn't we allow and participate in those
                > > things if this group collectively decided to do them, and let the
                mistakes
                > > bear themselves out? Or do some voices count more than others, and
                can said
                > > voices inhibit the remainder's organizational intentions? Who
                decides who
                > > those voices are? How can you make that decision without inhibiting
                > > self-organization?
                > >
                > > Regards,
                > >
                > > Drew Miller
                > > drew.miller@m...
                > > A code grunt that longs to be a project manager
                > >
              • Deb
                ... Self-organisation happens on the edge of chaos doesn t it? This necessitates that we keep close to the chaos, or drift away from Agility. Good reminder,
                Message 7 of 28 , Dec 2, 2004
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                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Beedle" <beedlem@e...>
                  wrote:
                  > ... I think "separating the wheat from the chaff" is a mistake.
                  > The chaff is the "chaos" that keeps us together, what makes friendships,
                  > what gets respect from one another at the personal level, what makes us
                  > laugh, and share mundane -- but important stories.

                  Self-organisation happens "on the edge of chaos" doesn't it? This
                  necessitates that we keep close to the chaos, or drift away from
                  Agility. Good reminder, thanks. That said, I still think newbies need
                  a safe place to ask questions, and it seems clear that this list is
                  not it, right now.

                  For other purposes, this list is great - not always predictable,
                  different levels mixed together, experts freely sharing experience,
                  jokes to break the tension. Even arguments (read
                  http://tinyurl.com/6kdy6 for why some of us find this useful).

                  But I do HATE yahoogroups - all the threads mixed together on one
                  page. I'd like to read one thread, with *all* its divergent
                  subthreads, all in one place, as on the Forums I see elsewhere. RSS
                  with (more) full entries would be great too. (Yahoo RSS only shows a
                  few words)

                  Or am I a wimp? :-)

                  >
                  > In my opinion, general Scrum questions, practitioners questions,
                  discussions
                  > of Scrum or Agile history, comparisons of agile methods, newbie
                  questions,
                  > jokes, stories, opinions and even strong opinions, ... all have its
                  place.
                  >
                  > I don't think we want to become such a list that every article on
                  the Scrum
                  > list looks like a refereed article to be submitted to a conference.
                  This
                  > would make us look rather academic... rather dull, rather standard.
                  I do
                  > not advocate that direction. I prefer freedom, diversity,
                  interaction, ...
                  > and... wholeness.
                  >
                  > My fear is that the managers in this list are trying to "manage the
                  > list"....
                  >
                  > My vote is:
                  >
                  > just let it be,
                  >
                  > The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to
                  manage it,
                  > classify it, organize it, specialize it or put hierarchies on it.
                  >
                  > Yes, I fully trust self-organization,
                  >
                  > - Mike
                  >
                  > "All nature is but art unknown to thee,
                  > All chance, direction which thou canst not see;
                  > All discord, harmony not understood;
                  > All partial evil, universal good;
                  > And, spite of pride, in erring reason's spite,
                  > One truth is clear, Whatever is, is right."
                  >
                  > --Alexander Pope, An Essay on Man, Epistle i, 1. 284
                • Deb
                  Is someone keeping a hardcopy of this? ;- deb ... manage it,
                  Message 8 of 28 , Dec 2, 2004
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                    Is someone keeping a hardcopy of this? ;->

                    deb

                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                    <ronjeffries@X...> wrote:
                    > On Thursday, December 2, 2004, at 1:00:59 PM, Mike Beedle wrote:
                    >
                    > > The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to
                    manage it,
                    > > classify it, organize it, specialize it or put hierarchies on it.
                    >
                    > > Yes, I fully trust self-organization,
                    >
                    > Mike. We agree! That's scary!
                    >
                    > Ron Jeffries
                    > www.XProgramming.com
                    > Show me the features!
                  • Deb
                    ... are bad, ... those
                    Message 9 of 28 , Dec 2, 2004
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                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <deborah@h...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Drew, I hereby (on no authority but my own) award you the Golden Pig
                      > of the Week.
                      >
                      > Notable mentions this week:
                      > - Boris Gloger for piloting the ScrumHelpDesk.
                      > - Michael Spayed for piloting ScrumForums.com
                      >
                      > One good way to know is to try, and then inspect-and-adapt, as Drew
                      > has reminded us. (You see? We stand to benefit by inviting our lurkers
                      > in more often!)
                      >
                      > Oink!
                      > deb
                      >
                      > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Michael Spayd
                      > <michael.spayd@g...> wrote:
                      > > Very subtle, Drew. Nicely done!
                      > >
                      > > Michael
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --
                      > > Michael K. Spayd
                      > > COGILITY, LLC
                      > > "Business Mind, Social Heart"
                      > > michael.spayd@g...
                      > > 720.300.5286
                      > >
                      > > On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:12:40 -0500, Drew Miller <drew.miller@m...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > > Mike,
                      > > >
                      > > > Let me begin by saying that I share your opinion regarding
                      > > > compartmentalizing this list's people, ideas, and material. I
                      > think it is a
                      > > > bad idea. I am a lurker, a first-time poster, and have only one
                      > sprint under
                      > > > my belt (and in that one I was an engineer rather than a manager).
                      > I think I
                      > > > fit the profile that this discussion was intended to help.
                      > > >
                      > > > Having said all that, something you wrote in your post disturbed me.
                      > > > Naturally, it may be that I simply misconstrued your meaning
                      > (which is easy
                      > > > to do with this medium). Specifically:
                      > > >
                      > > > >The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to
                      > manage it,
                      > > > >classify it, organize it, specialize it or put hierarchies on it.
                      > > >
                      > > > Aren't those things, despite the fact that we both think they
                      are bad,
                      > > > possible outcomes of self-organization? It almost seems that you
                      > are saying
                      > > > one hand, "The list will self-organize and I trust in that," but
                      > on the
                      > > > other hand, "do not self-organize this way." Certainly as members
                      > of the
                      > > > group we have a voice. But shouldn't we allow and participate in
                      those
                      > > > things if this group collectively decided to do them, and let the
                      > mistakes
                      > > > bear themselves out? Or do some voices count more than others, and
                      > can said
                      > > > voices inhibit the remainder's organizational intentions? Who
                      > decides who
                      > > > those voices are? How can you make that decision without inhibiting
                      > > > self-organization?
                      > > >
                      > > > Regards,
                      > > >
                      > > > Drew Miller
                      > > > drew.miller@m...
                      > > > A code grunt that longs to be a project manager
                      > > >
                    • Deb
                      Oops. Michael Spayed is a great contributor... but it s - Michael Bannen who deserves the honorable mention for ScrumForums.com, this week. Thanks Michael and
                      Message 10 of 28 , Dec 2, 2004
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                        Oops.

                        Michael Spayed is a great contributor... but it's
                        - Michael Bannen
                        who deserves the honorable mention for ScrumForums.com, this week.

                        Thanks Michael and Michael for your contributions!
                        deb

                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <deborah@h...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Drew, I hereby (on no authority but my own) award you the Golden Pig
                        > of the Week.
                        >
                        > Notable mentions this week:
                        > - Boris Gloger for piloting the ScrumHelpDesk.
                        > - Michael Spayed for piloting ScrumForums.com
                        >
                        > One good way to know is to try, and then inspect-and-adapt, as Drew
                        > has reminded us. (You see? We stand to benefit by inviting our lurkers
                        > in more often!)
                        >
                        > Oink!
                        > deb
                        >
                        > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Michael Spayd
                        > <michael.spayd@g...> wrote:
                        > > Very subtle, Drew. Nicely done!
                        > >
                        > > Michael
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --
                        > > Michael K. Spayd
                        > > COGILITY, LLC
                        > > "Business Mind, Social Heart"
                        > > michael.spayd@g...
                        > > 720.300.5286
                        > >
                        > > On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:12:40 -0500, Drew Miller <drew.miller@m...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > > Mike,
                        > > >
                        > > > Let me begin by saying that I share your opinion regarding
                        > > > compartmentalizing this list's people, ideas, and material. I
                        > think it is a
                        > > > bad idea. I am a lurker, a first-time poster, and have only one
                        > sprint under
                        > > > my belt (and in that one I was an engineer rather than a manager).
                        > I think I
                        > > > fit the profile that this discussion was intended to help.
                        > > >
                        > > > Having said all that, something you wrote in your post disturbed me.
                        > > > Naturally, it may be that I simply misconstrued your meaning
                        > (which is easy
                        > > > to do with this medium). Specifically:
                        > > >
                        > > > >The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to
                        > manage it,
                        > > > >classify it, organize it, specialize it or put hierarchies on it.
                        > > >
                        > > > Aren't those things, despite the fact that we both think they
                        are bad,
                        > > > possible outcomes of self-organization? It almost seems that you
                        > are saying
                        > > > one hand, "The list will self-organize and I trust in that," but
                        > on the
                        > > > other hand, "do not self-organize this way." Certainly as members
                        > of the
                        > > > group we have a voice. But shouldn't we allow and participate in
                        those
                        > > > things if this group collectively decided to do them, and let the
                        > mistakes
                        > > > bear themselves out? Or do some voices count more than others, and
                        > can said
                        > > > voices inhibit the remainder's organizational intentions? Who
                        > decides who
                        > > > those voices are? How can you make that decision without inhibiting
                        > > > self-organization?
                        > > >
                        > > > Regards,
                        > > >
                        > > > Drew Miller
                        > > > drew.miller@m...
                        > > > A code grunt that longs to be a project manager
                        > > >
                      • Chuck Hinson
                        Deb wrote: [...] ... No, you re just not using the right tools. Subscribe to the mailing list and you can read this stuff in your favorite email client. I
                        Message 11 of 28 , Dec 2, 2004
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                          Deb wrote:

                          [...]
                          >
                          > But I do HATE yahoogroups - all the threads mixed together on one
                          > page. I'd like to read one thread, with *all* its divergent
                          > subthreads, all in one place, as on the Forums I see elsewhere. RSS
                          > with (more) full entries would be great too. (Yahoo RSS only shows a
                          > few words)
                          >
                          > Or am I a wimp? :-)
                          >

                          No, you're just not using the right tools. Subscribe to the mailing
                          list and you can read this stuff in your favorite email client. I
                          personally use Mozilla's mail client which does a mostly fine job with
                          threading (as I'm sure just about any other non-web-based email client
                          would do)

                          --Chuck
                        • Mike Dwyer
                          Drew: Congratulations for jumping into the pool. Regarding your closing comment, A code grunt that longs to be a project manager Why? No tricks here I want
                          Message 12 of 28 , Dec 2, 2004
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                            Drew:
                            Congratulations for jumping into the pool.

                            Regarding your closing comment, "A code grunt that longs to be a project
                            manager"

                            Why? No tricks here I want to know what draws skilled people such as you to
                            want this life.


                            Michael F. Dwyer

                            Mike.Dwyer1@...



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Drew Miller [mailto:drew.miller@...]
                            Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 4:13 PM
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: FW: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Question


                            Mike,

                            Let me begin by saying that I share your opinion regarding
                            compartmentalizing this list's people, ideas, and material. I think it is a
                            bad idea. I am a lurker, a first-time poster, and have only one sprint under
                            my belt (and in that one I was an engineer rather than a manager). I think I
                            fit the profile that this discussion was intended to help.

                            Having said all that, something you wrote in your post disturbed me.
                            Naturally, it may be that I simply misconstrued your meaning (which is easy
                            to do with this medium). Specifically:

                            >The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to manage it,
                            >classify it, organize it, specialize it or put hierarchies on it.

                            Aren't those things, despite the fact that we both think they are bad,
                            possible outcomes of self-organization? It almost seems that you are saying
                            one hand, "The list will self-organize and I trust in that," but on the
                            other hand, "do not self-organize this way." Certainly as members of the
                            group we have a voice. But shouldn't we allow and participate in those
                            things if this group collectively decided to do them, and let the mistakes
                            bear themselves out? Or do some voices count more than others, and can said
                            voices inhibit the remainder's organizational intentions? Who decides who
                            those voices are? How can you make that decision without inhibiting
                            self-organization?

                            Regards,

                            Drew Miller
                            drew.miller@...
                            A code grunt that longs to be a project manager
                          • Michael Bannen
                            Michael Bannen :) ... From: Deb [mailto:deborah@hartmann.net] Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 8:32 PM To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com Subject: FW:
                            Message 13 of 28 , Dec 3, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Message
                              Michael Bannen :)
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Deb [mailto:deborah@...]
                              Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 8:32 PM
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: FW: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Question


                              Drew, I hereby (on no authority but my own) award you the Golden Pig
                              of the Week.

                              Notable mentions this week:
                              - Boris Gloger for piloting the ScrumHelpDesk.
                              - Michael Spayed for piloting ScrumForums.com

                              One good way to know is to try, and then inspect-and-adapt, as Drew
                              has reminded us. (You see? We stand to benefit by inviting our lurkers
                              in more often!)

                              Oink!
                              deb

                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Michael Spayd
                              <michael.spayd@g...> wrote:
                              > Very subtle, Drew. Nicely done!
                              >
                              > Michael
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              > Michael K. Spayd
                              > COGILITY, LLC
                              > "Business Mind, Social Heart"
                              > michael.spayd@g...
                              > 720.300.5286
                              >
                              > On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:12:40 -0500, Drew Miller <drew.miller@m...>
                              wrote:
                              > > Mike,
                              > >
                              > > Let me begin by saying that I share your opinion regarding
                              > > compartmentalizing this list's people, ideas, and material. I
                              think it is a
                              > > bad idea. I am a lurker, a first-time poster, and have only one
                              sprint under
                              > > my belt (and in that one I was an engineer rather than a manager).
                              I think I
                              > > fit the profile that this discussion was intended to help.
                              > >
                              > > Having said all that, something you wrote in your post disturbed me.
                              > > Naturally, it may be that I simply misconstrued your meaning
                              (which is easy
                              > > to do with this medium). Specifically:
                              > >
                              > > >The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to
                              manage it,
                              > > >classify it, organize it, specialize it or put hierarchies on it.
                              > >
                              > > Aren't those things, despite the fact that we both think they are bad,
                              > > possible outcomes of self-organization? It almost seems that you
                              are saying
                              > > one hand, "The list will self-organize and I trust in that," but
                              on the
                              > > other hand, "do not self-organize this way." Certainly as members
                              of the
                              > > group we have a voice. But shouldn't we allow and participate in those
                              > > things if this group collectively decided to do them, and let the
                              mistakes
                              > > bear themselves out? Or do some voices count more than others, and
                              can said
                              > > voices inhibit the remainder's organizational intentions? Who
                              decides who
                              > > those voices are? How can you make that decision without inhibiting
                              > > self-organization?
                              > >
                              > > Regards,
                              > >
                              > > Drew Miller
                              > > drew.miller@m...
                              > > A code grunt that longs to be a project manager
                              > >





                              To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



                            • Drew Miller
                              ... Why do I long to be a project manager? There are so many reasons. I will pick four and explain them. Please note that these are not necessarily the most
                              Message 14 of 28 , Dec 3, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Mike Dwyer wrote:

                                >Regarding your closing comment, "A code grunt that longs to be a project
                                >manager"
                                >
                                >Why? No tricks here I want to know what draws skilled people such as you to
                                >want this life.

                                Why do I long to be a project manager? There are so many reasons. I will pick four and explain them. Please note that these are not necessarily the most important reasons but are the ones that came to my mind first.

                                I am fascinated by systems. I don't think truth is subjective. I believe there is a single, correct solution for any given problem. I think we view things subjectively and avoid absolutes because we aren't capable of understanding that single, correct solution. I don't think we ever will be capable. That could quickly turn into a philosophical discussion so I will leave it at that. But believing as I do, how can I not want to play with systems in the hope that I will improve them and increase my understanding? How can I not work toward that single, correct solution? I think software development has to be approached in the same way that a scientist approaches a problem which is not completely understood: through continual, iterative experimentation with adjustment based on empirical observation. I don't want to be part of the experiment. I want to conduct the experiment.

                                I am fascinated by team dynamics. People are just awesome. To me there is something beautiful about taking a group of people who have different personalities, work habits, goals, agendas, etc. and guiding them toward a common end. I think there are too few people who understand the difference between leading a group of people and managing a group of people. I think I do, at least to some extent, and therefore want to be the leader. On a more selfish level, I also want the opportunity to take a step back sometimes and simply admire people interacting with one another. It's just that cool.

                                I love to teach. I don't care about teaching new technical platforms, patterns, practices, and other things that ultimately benefit production. These things are important and I do them now. I want to teach people to think critically. I want to teach people to think differently. Most of all, I want to teach people to think more. I can't effectively do that when I am responsible for production myself.

                                I am not very skilled. I know I am not the greatest programmer. My success in this business is due to critical thinking, leadership, and lots of effort. I am chosen for difficult projects not because I am the best engineer, but because I grasp problems quickly, will lead a team of people in solving the problems, am honest despite pressure to be otherwise, and completely commit myself. I think these qualities are needed by project managers. I want to spend more time on those things and less time, or rather no time at all, developing product.

                                These reasons (and the others that I have not mentioned) really just support and lead to the one reason that matters most to me: I think I would benefit my employer better by managing projects rather than developing product. I take the employer/employee relationship very seriously. It is a point of personal pride and ethics to provide the best possible value to anyone who pays for my services.

                                Regards,

                                Drew Miller
                                <drew.miller@...>
                                A code grunt who longs to be a project manager
                              • Michael Vizdos
                                So Drew... The reasons you listed... I am sure people will pick those apart. They are your reasons though, which make them valid to me... Question: What is
                                Message 15 of 28 , Dec 4, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  So Drew...
                                   
                                  The "reasons" you listed... I am sure people will pick those apart.  They are your reasons though, which make them valid to me...
                                   
                                  Question:
                                   
                                  What is stopping you from becoming a project manager? 
                                   
                                  If you are in a position at your current employer, start working *with* the PM's and see where you can help out.  If you are not currently employed -- be flexible and *find* the position -- they ARE out there.  Network. 
                                   
                                  One of the things I have found *very* successful is attaching yourself to rising stars and working with them on a mentoring program one-on-one with them; both people usually gain something from the other in these relationships.   For more info on the different types of mentors I work with check out www.michaelvizdos.com (this section is towards the bottom of the page -- I just started the site and it will evolve). Think about the people on this list and approach some of them off-line to see if they are interested in working with you; you will never find one if you do not ask.
                                   
                                  The other thing is READ READ READ -- everything from groups like this to the industry rags (even ones tertiary to project management).
                                   
                                  Remember... Scrum is the, "Art of the possible."  Time to step up and do something about it.
                                   
                                  For more info contact me directly or continue this thread on the list -- it may lead to some additional interesting threads.
                                   
                                  BTW -- PLEASE take this thread as a "kick start" in case this is what you are looking for.  If not, please forgive me and keep doing what you are doing (smile).
                                   
                                  Thank you,

                                  - Michael Vizdos
                                    President
                                    Ronin International, Inc.
                                    Certified Scrum Master
                                    
                                    www.ronin-intl.com
                                    www.agilemodeling.com
                                    www.enterpriseunifiedprocess.com
                                    www.agiledata.org

                                  Keep in touch with Ronin International -- For more information see groups.yahoo.com/group/ronin-news/ or send a blank email to: ronin-news-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                   


                                  From: Drew Miller [mailto:drew.miller@...]
                                  Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 11:45 PM
                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Another Question

                                  Mike Dwyer wrote:

                                  >Regarding your closing comment, "A
                                  code grunt that longs to be a project
                                  >manager"
                                  >
                                  >Why? No
                                  tricks here I want to know what draws skilled people such as you to
                                  >want
                                  this life.

                                  Why do I long to be a project manager? There are so many reasons. I will pick four and explain them. Please note that these are not necessarily the most important reasons but are the ones that came to my mind first.

                                  I am fascinated by systems. I don't think truth is subjective. I believe there is a single, correct solution for any given problem. I think we view things subjectively and avoid absolutes because we aren't capable of understanding that single, correct solution. I don't think we ever will be capable. That could quickly turn into a philosophical discussion so I will leave it at that.  But believing as I do, how can I not want to play with systems in the hope that I will improve them and increase my understanding? How can I not work toward that single, correct solution? I think software development has to be approached in the same way that a scientist approaches a problem which is not completely understood: through continual, iterative experimentation with adjustment based on empirical observation. I don't want to be part of the experiment. I want to conduct the experiment.

                                  I am fascinated by team dynamics. People are just awesome. To me there is something beautiful about taking a group of people who have different personalities, work habits, goals, agendas, etc. and guiding them toward a common end. I think there are too few people who understand the difference between leading a group of people and managing a group of people. I think I do, at least to some extent, and therefore want to be the leader. On a more selfish level, I also want the opportunity to take a step back sometimes and simply admire people interacting with one another. It's just that cool.

                                  I love to teach. I don't care about teaching new technical platforms, patterns, practices, and other things that ultimately benefit production. These things are important and I do them now. I want to teach people to think critically. I want to teach people to think differently. Most of all, I want to teach people to think more. I can't effectively do that when I am responsible for production myself.

                                  I am not very skilled. I know I am not the greatest programmer. My success in this business is due to critical thinking, leadership, and lots of effort. I am chosen for difficult projects not because I am the best engineer, but because I grasp problems quickly, will lead a team of people in solving the problems, am honest despite pressure to be otherwise, and completely commit myself. I think these qualities are needed by project managers. I want to spend more time on those things and less time, or rather no time at all, developing product.

                                  These reasons (and the others that I have not mentioned) really just support and lead to the one reason that matters most to me: I think I would benefit my employer better by managing projects rather than developing product. I take the employer/employee relationship very seriously. It is a point of personal pride and ethics to provide the best possible value to anyone who pays for my services.

                                  Regards,

                                  Drew Miller
                                  <drew.miller@...>
                                  A code grunt who longs to be a project manager


                                  To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



                                • Mike Dwyer
                                  Thanks; I too am fascinated by systems, but after while I came to realize that I don t know enough to gauge whether there is one right way or even if I would
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Dec 4, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thanks;

                                    I too am fascinated by systems, but after while I came to realize that I
                                    don't know enough to gauge whether there is one right way or even if I would
                                    know the 'truth' if it hit me. So I become a Bayesian in my approach. In
                                    essence I had no idea what is correct - truth - and probably never will.
                                    The only thing I can do is confirm that what I am doing today is less wrong
                                    than what I did yesterday.

                                    After a couple of years I came to realize that I was not very good at
                                    spotting the degrees of wrong in many of the things I worked on. Then I
                                    came to understand that the people around me had the same problem. We
                                    pooled our ignorance and began to collaborate and recognized we, in fact,
                                    were the experiment.

                                    Well here we were, rats in a self designed maze that we had a bad habit of
                                    changing everytime we mapped a path to the cheese. Plans, scenarios,
                                    processes, protocols, ouija boards were all tried by various leaders and
                                    teachers that emerged. The problems still remained. We didn't have it
                                    right and we kept on changing stuff.

                                    Somewhere along the line a bunch of us huddled in the corners, paid lip
                                    service to the grand schemes being followed and just did stuff that made
                                    sense. We stopped paying attention to expecting failure and measuring the
                                    degrees to which we did not. We stopped doing anything that didn't move us
                                    forward (at least in the direction the people paying us wanted to go).

                                    About 3 years ago, the ones were out scrumming and messing with XP, DSDD,
                                    (and other acronyms desperately needing to buy a vowel)got together came up
                                    with a common set of Principals and called it Agile.

                                    As to the rest of us? Well when we hear about this, we are suspicious that
                                    it is another ploy. Then we listen and some of us stick our hands in the
                                    air and ask people like you why in the world do you want to do this!

                                    Michael F. Dwyer

                                    Mike.Dwyer1@...



                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Drew Miller [mailto:drew.miller@...]
                                    Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:45 AM
                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Another Question


                                    Mike Dwyer wrote:

                                    >Regarding your closing comment, "A code grunt that longs to be a project
                                    >manager"
                                    >
                                    >Why? No tricks here I want to know what draws skilled people such as you to
                                    >want this life.

                                    Why do I long to be a project manager? There are so many reasons. I will
                                    pick four and explain them. Please note that these are not necessarily the
                                    most important reasons but are the ones that came to my mind first.

                                    I am fascinated by systems. I don't think truth is subjective. I believe
                                    there is a single, correct solution for any given problem. I think we view
                                    things subjectively and avoid absolutes because we aren't capable of
                                    understanding that single, correct solution. I don't think we ever will be
                                    capable. That could quickly turn into a philosophical discussion so I will
                                    leave it at that. But believing as I do, how can I not want to play with
                                    systems in the hope that I will improve them and increase my understanding?
                                    How can I not work toward that single, correct solution? I think software
                                    development has to be approached in the same way that a scientist approaches
                                    a problem which is not completely understood: through continual, iterative
                                    experimentation with adjustment based on empirical observation. I don't want
                                    to be part of the experiment. I want to conduct the experiment.

                                    I am fascinated by team dynamics. People are just awesome. To me there is
                                    something beautiful about taking a group of people who have different
                                    personalities, work habits, goals, agendas, etc. and guiding them toward a
                                    common end. I think there are too few people who understand the difference
                                    between leading a group of people and managing a group of people. I think I
                                    do, at least to some extent, and therefore want to be the leader. On a more
                                    selfish level, I also want the opportunity to take a step back sometimes and
                                    simply admire people interacting with one another. It's just that cool.

                                    I love to teach. I don't care about teaching new technical platforms,
                                    patterns, practices, and other things that ultimately benefit production.
                                    These things are important and I do them now. I want to teach people to
                                    think critically. I want to teach people to think differently. Most of all,
                                    I want to teach people to think more. I can't effectively do that when I am
                                    responsible for production myself.

                                    I am not very skilled. I know I am not the greatest programmer. My success
                                    in this business is due to critical thinking, leadership, and lots of
                                    effort. I am chosen for difficult projects not because I am the best
                                    engineer, but because I grasp problems quickly, will lead a team of people
                                    in solving the problems, am honest despite pressure to be otherwise, and
                                    completely commit myself. I think these qualities are needed by project
                                    managers. I want to spend more time on those things and less time, or rather
                                    no time at all, developing product.

                                    These reasons (and the others that I have not mentioned) really just support
                                    and lead to the one reason that matters most to me: I think I would benefit
                                    my employer better by managing projects rather than developing product. I
                                    take the employer/employee relationship very seriously. It is a point of
                                    personal pride and ethics to provide the best possible value to anyone who
                                    pays for my services.

                                    Regards,

                                    Drew Miller
                                    <drew.miller@...>
                                    A code grunt who longs to be a project manager



                                    To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                    scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  • Drew Miller
                                    Michael, Thanks for your response. I am currently employed. If I wasn t committed to my current employer I would simply find a consulting gig elsewhere as a
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Dec 4, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      So Drew...
                                       
                                      The "reasons" you listed... I am sure people will pick those apart.  They are your reasons though, which make them valid to me...
                                       
                                      Question:
                                       
                                      What is stopping you from becoming a project manager? 
                                       
                                      If you are in a position at your current employer, start working *with* the PM's and see where you can help out.  If you are not currently employed -- be flexible and *find* the position -- they ARE out there.  Network. 
                                       
                                      One of the things I have found *very* successful is attaching yourself to rising stars and working with them on a mentoring program one-on-one with them; both people usually gain something from the other in these relationships.   For more info on the different types of mentors I work with check out www.michaelvizdos.com (this section is towards the bottom of the page -- I just started the site and it will evolve). Think about the people on this list and approach some of them off-line to see if they are interested in working with you; you will never find one if you do not ask.
                                       
                                      The other thing is READ READ READ -- everything from groups like this to the industry rags (even ones tertiary to project management).
                                       
                                      Remember... Scrum is the, "Art of the possible."  Time to step up and do something about it.
                                       
                                      For more info contact me directly or continue this thread on the list -- it may lead to some additional interesting threads.
                                       
                                      BTW -- PLEASE take this thread as a "kick start" in case this is what you are looking for.  If not, please forgive me and keep doing what you are doing (smile).
                                       
                                      Thank you,

                                      - Michael Vizdos
                                        President
                                        Ronin International, Inc.
                                        Certified Scrum Master
                                        
                                        www.ronin-intl.com
                                        www.agilemodeling.com
                                        www.enterpriseunifiedprocess.com
                                        www.agiledata.org

                                      Keep in touch with Ronin International -- For more information see groups.yahoo.com/group/ronin-news/ or send a blank email to: ronin-news-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                       


                                      From: Drew Miller [mailto:drew.miller@...]
                                      Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 11:45 PM
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Another Question

                                      Mike Dwyer wrote:

                                      >Regarding your closing comment, "A
                                      code grunt that longs to be a project
                                      >manager"
                                      >
                                      >Why? No
                                      tricks here I want to know what draws skilled people such as you to
                                      >want
                                      this life.

                                      Why do I long to be a project manager? There are so many reasons. I will pick four and explain them. Please note that these are not necessarily the most important reasons but are the ones that came to my mind first.

                                      I am fascinated by systems. I don't think truth is subjective. I believe there is a single, correct solution for any given problem. I think we view things subjectively and avoid absolutes because we aren't capable of understanding that single, correct solution. I don't think we ever will be capable. That could quickly turn into a philosophical discussion so I will leave it at that.  But believing as I do, how can I not want to play with systems in the hope that I will improve them and increase my understanding? How can I not work toward that single, correct solution? I think software development has to be approached in the same way that a scientist approaches a problem which is not completely understood: through continual, iterative experimentation with adjustment based on empirical observation. I don't want to be part of the experiment. I want to conduct the experiment.

                                      I am fascinated by team dynamics. People are just awesome. To me there is something beautiful about taking a group of people who have different personalities, work habits, goals, agendas, etc. and guiding them toward a common end. I think there are too few people who understand the difference between leading a group of people and managing a group of people. I think I do, at least to some extent, and therefore want to be the leader. On a more selfish level, I also want the opportunity to take a step back sometimes and simply admire people interacting with one another. It's just that cool.

                                      I love to teach. I don't care about teaching new technical platforms, patterns, practices, and other things that ultimately benefit production. These things are important and I do them now. I want to teach people to think critically. I want to teach people to think differently. Most of all, I want to teach people to think more. I can't effectively do that when I am responsible for production myself.

                                      I am not very skilled. I know I am not the greatest programmer. My success in this business is due to critical thinking, leadership, and lots of effort. I am chosen for difficult projects not because I am the best engineer, but because I grasp problems quickly, will lead a team of people in solving the problems, am honest despite pressure to be otherwise, and completely commit myself. I think these qualities are needed by project managers. I want to spend more time on those things and less time, or rather no time at all, developing product.

                                      These reasons (and the others that I have not mentioned) really just support and lead to the one reason that matters most to me: I think I would benefit my employer better by managing projects rather than developing product. I take the employer/employee relationship very seriously. It is a point of personal pride and ethics to provide the best possible value to anyone who pays for my services.

                                      Regards,

                                      Drew Miller
                                      <drew.miller@...>
                                      A code grunt who longs to be a project manager


                                      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                                      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...





                                      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                                      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



                                    • Mike Beedle
                                      Ron, Yes, it seems scary these days, but I am sure we agree on a large number of other things. And in fact, through the last few years (4, 5, maybe more+), I
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Dec 4, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Ron,

                                        Yes, it seems scary these days, but I am sure we agree on a large number of
                                        other things. And in fact, through the last few years (4, 5, maybe more+),
                                        I think we tend to agree on most things.

                                        - Mike

                                        Appearances are deceptive.



                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                        Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 1:27 PM
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: FW: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Question


                                        On Thursday, December 2, 2004, at 1:00:59 PM, Mike Beedle wrote:

                                        > The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to manage it,
                                        > classify it, organize it, specialize it or put hierarchies on it.

                                        > Yes, I fully trust self-organization,

                                        Mike. We agree! That's scary!

                                        Ron Jeffries
                                        www.XProgramming.com
                                        Show me the features!





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                                        scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      • Mike Beedle
                                        ... Drew: I don t have any power over the list -- I only get a vote, a *single and equal vote*, as far as I know. Remember I wrote: My vote is:
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Dec 4, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Drew wrote:
                                          > Having said all that, something you wrote in your post disturbed me.

                                          Mb wrote:
                                          >The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to
                                          > manage it, classify it, organize it, specialize it or
                                          > put hierarchies on it.

                                          Drew wrote:
                                          >Aren't those things, despite the fact that we both think they are bad,
                                          >possible outcomes of self-organization? It almost seems that you are saying
                                          >one hand, "The list will self-organize and I trust in that," but on the
                                          >other hand, "do not self-organize this way." Certainly as members of the
                                          >group we have a voice.

                                          Drew:

                                          I don't have any power over the list -- I only get a vote, a *single and
                                          equal vote*, as far as I know. Remember I wrote:

                                          <mb wrote>
                                          My vote is:

                                          just let it be,

                                          The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need
                                          to manage it, classify it, organize it, specialize it or
                                          put hierarchies on it.
                                          <mb wrote>

                                          If the other members of the list disagree, and there is enough "mass" to do
                                          something else, it will happen, otherwise it won't.

                                          Drew wrote:
                                          >But shouldn't we allow and participate in those things if this group
                                          >collectively decided to do them, and let the mistakes bear themselves out?

                                          Sure, it happens. I mean, it is now like anyone has the power to "stop
                                          people from trying things". I certainly don't.

                                          Anyone can create a new group like Boris did, and run with it.

                                          We will see how that works. If it works, he will validate the idea, ... if
                                          it doesn't work as well we will try to figure out what happened.


                                          Drew wrote:
                                          >Or do some voices count more than others, and can said voices inhibit the
                                          >remainder's organizational intentions? Who decides who those voices are?
                                          >How can you make that decision without inhibiting self-organization?

                                          It obviously didn't inhibit yours. In fact, no one that I know, including
                                          myself has that much power as to silent others.

                                          Basically the way it works is: you get a vote if you speak you mind. (Alan
                                          Kay says that "point of view is worth 80 IQ points".)

                                          So you are now empowered with voting, *just like everyone else*, since you
                                          spoke your mind, and therefore you get a vote. That's the way it works.

                                          - Mike
                                        • Mike Beedle
                                          ...   Mike: I ll take a quick dab at this. Writing books, case studies, publishing web sites, articles, posting on this and other Scrum lists, calling other
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Dec 4, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Mike Dwyer wrote:
                                            >How do we, as theoreticians, practitioners, advocates and participants
                                            >share and pass our experiences to a growing community of people who have
                                            >heard what we are saying?
                                             
                                            Mike:

                                            I'll take a quick dab at this.

                                            Writing books, case studies, publishing web sites, articles, posting on this
                                            and other Scrum lists, calling other Scrum practitioners on the phone,
                                            creating and attending conferences, attending training courses, doing sales
                                            presentations, etc.

                                            Mike Dwyer wrote:
                                            >How do we in one and at the same time, keep the pushing ourselves and each
                                            >other as well as mentor and grow those who come to listen, learn and ask
                                            >questions?
                                             
                                            Keep sending and answering questions that everyone can see. Having very
                                            experienced, experienced and new comers interacting so that *knowledge* and
                                            experience can be transmitted across a wide-range of participants (across
                                            management hierarchies, functional specialty, level of expertise, etc.)

                                            Mike Dwyer wrote:
                                            >Most important how do we involve the 'lurkers' so that they can, through
                                            >their niave questions, check to make sure we are not wearing the emperor's
                                            >clothes.

                                            Keep the discussions interesting and active, and making sure they are
                                            exposed to very many opinions.

                                            I think it is awfully pretentious, I think, to try to classify people into
                                            buckets.

                                            Who is to say that we are not going to learn from a new comer?

                                            Who is to say who is an "expert"?

                                            Who is to say who is a "theoretician"?

                                            I think these are all questions with "blurry" or at least overlapping
                                            answers?

                                            - Mike
                                          • Mike Beedle
                                            Yes, Drew, nicely done.... Always question everyone and voice your opinion. I always question those who appear to have authority, sell something , are on a
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                              Yes, Drew, nicely done....

                                              Always question everyone and voice your opinion.

                                              I always question those who appear to have authority, "sell something", are
                                              on a crusade to do something, or make unjustified claims.

                                              Please feel free to question what I propose, what I do, or what I publish --
                                              this will keep me honest,

                                              - Mike

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: Michael Spayd [mailto:michael.spayd@...]
                                              Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 7:45 PM
                                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: FW: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Question


                                              Very subtle, Drew. Nicely done!

                                              Michael


                                              --
                                              Michael K. Spayd
                                              COGILITY, LLC
                                              "Business Mind, Social Heart"
                                              michael.spayd@...
                                              720.300.5286

                                              On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:12:40 -0500, Drew Miller <drew.miller@...> wrote:
                                              > Mike,
                                              >
                                              > Let me begin by saying that I share your opinion regarding
                                              > compartmentalizing this list's people, ideas, and material. I think it is
                                              a
                                              > bad idea. I am a lurker, a first-time poster, and have only one sprint
                                              under
                                              > my belt (and in that one I was an engineer rather than a manager). I think
                                              I
                                              > fit the profile that this discussion was intended to help.
                                              >
                                              > Having said all that, something you wrote in your post disturbed me.
                                              > Naturally, it may be that I simply misconstrued your meaning (which is
                                              easy
                                              > to do with this medium). Specifically:
                                              >
                                              > >The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to manage
                                              it,
                                              > >classify it, organize it, specialize it or put hierarchies on it.
                                              >
                                              > Aren't those things, despite the fact that we both think they are bad,
                                              > possible outcomes of self-organization? It almost seems that you are
                                              saying
                                              > one hand, "The list will self-organize and I trust in that," but on the
                                              > other hand, "do not self-organize this way." Certainly as members of the
                                              > group we have a voice. But shouldn't we allow and participate in those
                                              > things if this group collectively decided to do them, and let the mistakes
                                              > bear themselves out? Or do some voices count more than others, and can
                                              said
                                              > voices inhibit the remainder's organizational intentions? Who decides who
                                              > those voices are? How can you make that decision without inhibiting
                                              > self-organization?
                                              >
                                              > Regards,
                                              >
                                              > Drew Miller
                                              > drew.miller@...
                                              > A code grunt that longs to be a project manager
                                              >



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                                            • Mike Beedle
                                              ... Deb, That s the only way to know: TEST, or experiment if you prefer. Good luck to Boris and Michael with ScrumHelpDesk and ScrumForums.com!!! - Mike
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                                Deb wrote:
                                                >Notable mentions this week:
                                                > - Boris Gloger for piloting the ScrumHelpDesk.
                                                > - Michael Spayed for piloting ScrumForums.com
                                                >
                                                >One good way to know is to try, and then inspect-and-adapt, as Drew
                                                >has reminded us. (You see? We stand to benefit by inviting our lurkers
                                                >in more often!)

                                                Deb,

                                                That's the only way to know: TEST, or experiment if you prefer.

                                                Good luck to Boris and Michael with ScrumHelpDesk and ScrumForums.com!!!

                                                - Mike
                                              • Mike Beedle
                                                Deb, Yes, I know -- there were recent fireworks that may lead everyone to believe Ron and I disagree on a lot of things but remember: appearances are
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                                  Deb,

                                                  Yes, I know -- there were recent fireworks that may lead everyone to believe
                                                  Ron and I disagree on a lot of things but remember: "appearances are
                                                  deceptive".

                                                  Contrary to this appearance, I strongly believe Ron and I agree on most
                                                  things, certainly we certainly agree on what Agile is, and on what works in
                                                  "real projects".

                                                  - Mike

                                                  "The truth arises from the disagreement amongst friends"

                                                  -- DavidHume


                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: Deb [mailto:deborah@...]
                                                  Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 8:55 PM
                                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [OT] FW: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Question

                                                  Is someone keeping a hardcopy of this? ;->

                                                  deb

                                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                                                  <ronjeffries@X...> wrote:
                                                  > On Thursday, December 2, 2004, at 1:00:59 PM, Mike Beedle wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > The list will figure itself what to do next -- we don't need to
                                                  manage it,
                                                  > > classify it, organize it, specialize it or put hierarchies on it.
                                                  >
                                                  > > Yes, I fully trust self-organization,
                                                  >
                                                  > Mike. We agree! That's scary!
                                                  >
                                                  > Ron Jeffries
                                                  > www.XProgramming.com
                                                  > Show me the features!






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                                                • Ron Jeffries
                                                  ... True. I m not really fat and old. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Know what I pray for? The strength to change what I can, the inability to accept what I
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Dec 4, 2004
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    On Saturday, December 4, 2004, at 1:21:42 PM, Mike Beedle wrote:

                                                    > Appearances are deceptive.

                                                    True. I'm not really fat and old.

                                                    Ron Jeffries
                                                    www.XProgramming.com
                                                    Know what I pray for? The strength to change what I can, the inability to
                                                    accept what I can't and the incapacity to tell the difference. --Calvin and Hobbes
                                                  • Mike Dwyer
                                                    Thanks MikeB. I guess it is blurrier than I thought. Sorry for the confusion. This statement was not an attempt to put buckets around people but to express
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                                      Thanks MikeB.

                                                       

                                                      I guess it is blurrier than I thought.

                                                      Sorry for the confusion.  This statement was not an attempt to put buckets around people but to express the roles that I find people presenting to the forum through their individual input. 

                                                       

                                                      >How do we, as theoreticians, practitioners, advocates and >participants share and pass our experiences to a growing community of >people who have heard what we are saying?

                                                       

                                                      Again I must have missed the target which was to point out that as each of us choose the role we are taking in our response, we somehow need to remember that people are reading them from an diverse set of needs and expectations.  All I mean by this is that we, collectively, have to be as unambiguous as possible so that what we are communicating is heard through the role we are taking in the communication.

                                                       

                                                      >How do we in one and at the same time, keep the pushing ourselves and >each other as well as mentor and grow those who come to listen, learn >and ask questions?

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      Finally I am pretty disappointed in myself for leading you to believe that I was in any way dismissing the value of the ‘lurkers’ – as I meant to show the value I felt we were missing from them with the allusion to the “Emperors New Clothes”.

                                                       

                                                      >Most important how do we involve the 'lurkers' so that they can, >through their niave questions, check to make sure we are not wearing >the emperor's clothes.

                                                       

                                                      Hope this helps.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      Michael F. Dwyer

                                                       

                                                      Mike.Dwyer1@...

                                                       

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
                                                      Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 1:48 PM
                                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: RE: FW: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Question

                                                       

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      Mike Dwyer wrote:

                                                      >How do we, as theoreticians, practitioners, advocates and participants

                                                      >share and pass our experiences to a growing community of people who have

                                                      >heard what we are saying?

                                                       

                                                      Mike:

                                                       

                                                      I'll take a quick dab at this.

                                                       

                                                      Writing books, case studies, publishing web sites, articles, posting on this

                                                      and other Scrum lists, calling other Scrum practitioners on the phone,

                                                      creating and attending conferences, attending training courses, doing sales

                                                      presentations, etc.

                                                       

                                                      Mike Dwyer wrote:

                                                      >How do we in one and at the same time, keep the pushing ourselves and each

                                                      >other as well as mentor and grow those who come to listen, learn and ask

                                                      >questions?

                                                       

                                                      Keep sending and answering questions that everyone can see.  Having very

                                                      experienced, experienced and new comers interacting so that *knowledge* and

                                                      experience can be transmitted across a wide-range of participants (across

                                                      management hierarchies, functional specialty, level of expertise, etc.)

                                                       

                                                      Mike Dwyer wrote:

                                                      >Most important how do we involve the 'lurkers' so that they can, through

                                                      >their niave questions, check to make sure we are not wearing the emperor's

                                                      >clothes.

                                                       

                                                      Keep the discussions interesting and active, and making sure they are

                                                      exposed to very many opinions.

                                                       

                                                      I think it is awfully pretentious, I think, to try to classify people into

                                                      buckets.

                                                       

                                                      Who is to say that we are not going to learn from a new comer?

                                                       

                                                      Who is to say who is an "expert"?

                                                       

                                                      Who is to say who is a "theoretician"?

                                                       

                                                      I think these are all questions with "blurry" or at least overlapping

                                                      answers?

                                                       

                                                      - Mike

                                                       

                                                       

                                                       

                                                       

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                                                    • Mike Dwyer
                                                      What happens to the result if we move from an NAND GATE to an XOR GATE? 8^) I, on the otherhand, can answer TRUE to at least one of these statements. Michael
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                                        What happens to the result if we move from an NAND GATE to an XOR GATE?

                                                        8^)
                                                        I, on the otherhand, can answer TRUE to at least one of these statements.

                                                        Michael F. Dwyer

                                                        Mike.Dwyer1@...



                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                                        Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 4:26 PM
                                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: Re: FW: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Question


                                                        On Saturday, December 4, 2004, at 1:21:42 PM, Mike Beedle wrote:

                                                        > Appearances are deceptive.

                                                        True. I'm not really fat and old.

                                                        Ron Jeffries
                                                        www.XProgramming.com
                                                        Know what I pray for? The strength to change what I can, the inability to
                                                        accept what I can't and the incapacity to tell the difference. --Calvin and
                                                        Hobbes





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                                                      • Gary F
                                                        ... It s more complicated than that. Not every client can do so reliably, and many start to break at strange edits to the subject line. If you re reading an
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Dec 7, 2004
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          --- Chuck Hinson <cmhinson@...> wrote:
                                                          > Deb wrote:
                                                          > [...]
                                                          > > But I do HATE yahoogroups - all the threads mixed together on one
                                                          > > page. I'd like to read one thread, with *all* its divergent
                                                          > > subthreads, all in one place, as on the Forums I see elsewhere. RSS

                                                          > No, you're just not using the right tools. Subscribe to the mailing
                                                          > list and you can read this stuff in your favorite email client. I
                                                          > personally use Mozilla's mail client which does a mostly fine job

                                                          It's more complicated than that. Not every client can do so reliably,
                                                          and many start to break at strange edits to the subject line. If
                                                          you're reading an email client, you're likely to respond with it, which
                                                          potentially opens that account up to spam harvesting. (Yahoo online is
                                                          free, Yahoo POP accounts aren't. Maybe you know of some free POP
                                                          services.)

                                                          Finally, there's the issue of archives. Either you have to spend time
                                                          managing your own copies, or you delete things relatively quickly and
                                                          then have to go back to Yahoo's archives to read older notes. And even
                                                          though Yahoo groups does allow threading (a relatively new feature I
                                                          think, which may explain why Deb missed it), it's nevertheless a
                                                          relatively poor implementation. This, for me, is the compelling
                                                          argument against Yahoo groups.

                                                          Gary



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                                                        • Chuck Hinson
                                                          ... Yes, some clients don t do threading well. Mozilla seems to do a pretty good job with all the mailing list mail that I get. As far as spam harvesting
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Dec 7, 2004
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                                                            Gary F wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > --- Chuck Hinson <cmhinson@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            >>Deb wrote:
                                                            >>[...]
                                                            >>
                                                            >>>But I do HATE yahoogroups - all the threads mixed together on one
                                                            >>>page. I'd like to read one thread, with *all* its divergent
                                                            >>>subthreads, all in one place, as on the Forums I see elsewhere. RSS
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >>No, you're just not using the right tools. Subscribe to the mailing
                                                            >>list and you can read this stuff in your favorite email client. I
                                                            >>personally use Mozilla's mail client which does a mostly fine job
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > It's more complicated than that. Not every client can do so reliably,
                                                            > and many start to break at strange edits to the subject line. If
                                                            > you're reading an email client, you're likely to respond with it, which
                                                            > potentially opens that account up to spam harvesting. (Yahoo online is
                                                            > free, Yahoo POP accounts aren't. Maybe you know of some free POP
                                                            > services.)

                                                            Yes, some clients don't do threading well. Mozilla seems to do a pretty
                                                            good job with all the mailing list mail that I get.

                                                            As far as spam harvesting goes... when I did a quick check before
                                                            signing up with my first yahoo group, it appeared that yahoo did a
                                                            pretty good job hiding email addresses. I admit that it was a very
                                                            shallow check, so if you can determine what my real email address is
                                                            from this posting (using the yahoo UI), please let me know.

                                                            >
                                                            > Finally, there's the issue of archives. Either you have to spend time
                                                            > managing your own copies, or you delete things relatively quickly and
                                                            > then have to go back to Yahoo's archives to read older notes. And even
                                                            > though Yahoo groups does allow threading (a relatively new feature I
                                                            > think, which may explain why Deb missed it), it's nevertheless a
                                                            > relatively poor implementation. This, for me, is the compelling
                                                            > argument against Yahoo groups.

                                                            Yes, archives can be a problem. I usually keep the last 4 -6 months in
                                                            my email client since I seldom go back to look at old posts - especially
                                                            in high-traffic groups.

                                                            I don't disagree that yahoogroups has a sucky interface, but as for all
                                                            of the other issues, I'm not sure there's any better alternative. Almost
                                                            every mailing list has a web-based archive and thus may have the same
                                                            issues with UI and spam. And IMHO, a dedicated mail client (even one
                                                            that occasional misthreads) with a two- or three-paned interface is far
                                                            better than any of the web-based discussion forums that I've visited.

                                                            In any case, use what works for you. I just thought Deb might find it
                                                            useful to know that there are other ways to read this group.

                                                            --Chuck
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