RE: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Question
- Hi all,Been following the thread through this morning. This is something I see on a lot of different discussion groups. Part of the way I learn is through repetition and having people ask "basic" questions in a different light (this is just one way for me). It is still amazing what I can learn from what some people consider those "basic" questions.Maybe the answer is to listen and learn from all the people in this group -- without getting into any perceived intimidating threads. As for the lurkers out there, thanks for reading all these threads. In a word -- participate :). If you feel somewhat intimidated about asking this group -- email anyone directly and I am sure you will receive some great replies (and suggestions to move the question to this group).As with any self-organizing team, we'll see where this leads!- Michael VizdosFrom: mike.dwyer1@... [mailto:mike.dwyer1@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [scrumdevelopment] QuestionDawn;How do we (the community) help you folks. IMHO one of the keys to SCRUM and Agile is incremental improvement and if you need help we need to understand how best to support you.--
"I Keep six faithful serving-men
Who serve me well and true:
Their names are What and Where and When
And How and Why and Who." - Kipling
-------------- Original message --------------
> My name is Dawn Bauleke, and I'm a lurker. (Hi, Dawn!)
> I attended the San Jose class and heck YES I'm intimidated by the list - mainly
> because so many are the contributors I have read, perused the sites of, marveled
> at the knowledge of, but have not (yet) MET. But you just called me on it, so
> here I am, answering.
> Sometime, perhaps, I'll get the nerve to post a question. I should mention that
> I'm not exactly known for being shy or retiring - eh, Ken? Yarrr! That's in
> person. And that's when I'm actively learning or am comfortable with the
> subject matter (having *earned* some kind of 'expert status' myself).
> Yes, I'm a newbie to Scrum. The company I work for is new at having *any*
> particular methodology, with management ranging from command & control to
> waterfall to seat-of-the-pants and now Scrum. A few of us have been
> implementing Scrum since we got back from class in July - with varying degrees
> of success. So far the main thing I've found is that the honesty of scrum is
> paramount, personally important and *addictive*, and Ken, you're right, it's NOT
> easy. AND I hope I'm never asked to give it up.
> Back to the question: I but simply lurk because I find that many of the issues
> we are encountering *are* being addressed here without me having to ask the
> questions. AND I do find that a lot of the postings get into the niceties of
> precision and do appear to be debating nits and showing off knowledge - which is
> somewhat intimidating and off-putting - and IMO that happens in all lists.
> Once in awhile, though, there is that gem that hits *precisely* the issue I am
> dealing with - and those that do, my friends, get passed around our limited
> group of new scrum masters - as we do try to share the learnings, and not all of
> us have the time to review this ever-more-active list.
> Having said that, now I'm going to retreat into the lurker's alley for awhile
> *********** QUOTE ***********
> On 11/30/2004 at 10:00 PM quoth Michael Spayd:
> >Greetings all:
> >I decided to chime in here since, for me, the posts thus far do not
> >adequately acknowledge what Ken was saying. His words were that
> >newcomers experience this list as a *somewhat hostile environment for
> >learning* and *confrontational* to the point of scaring them off.
> >I have been involved fairly intensively with all manner of agile
> >methodologies for five years. I have taught agile to hundreds of
> >people, I have coached quite a few teams, yada, yada, yada. My point
> >is that even as an oldcomer (??) I can feel intimidated by the TONE of
> >this--and other--lists.
> >It is not the answers themselves, or the different and potentially
> >contradictory responses I would get, or displays of brilliance, or
> >anything else to do with being a newbie. I think it is something else.
> >I know that it is very easy to get into being slightly smug and having
> >a mildly arrogant tone when we are debating nits and being precise and
> >displaying our wisdom. I know that I do it. It takes quite a bit of
> >self-discipline for me not to do this (I edited this post like crazy,
> >for instance :-)). The bottom line is that when I come off this way it
> >can put others off. Some don't think anything of it, but others do.
> >The net result is that I myself would not particularly want to ask a
> >*real* question of this list. I wouldn't feel particularly safe doing
> >that. It is much safer to give answers and opinions. At least it is
> >for me. And that is not an environment where it is easy to collaborate
> >or to learn.
> >I don't particularly have an answer for Ken's issue . I just wanted to
> >acknowledge what is true for me. I don't think the issue is just for
> >newbies. Maybe we should ask the hundreds of lurkers what they
> >Michael K. Spayd
> >COGILITY, LLC
> >"Business Mind, Social Heart"
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 7:37 PM
> >> To: firstname.lastname@example.org
> >> Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Question
> >> I often refer Scrum newsters to ScrumDevelopment egroup to get
> >> answers to "has anybody else run into this?" and "how do I do this?"
> >> I've been getting feedback that they are intimidated from posting
> >> and participating since they feel that ScrumDevelopment is a
> >> somewhat hostile environment for learning. Some of the conversations
> >> and threads are pretty confrontational as well as picking of
> >> methodological nits, and this has scared and turned them off.
> >> I watched the XP yahoo group become unusable to the purposes that I
> >> describe above, and I'd sure like to avoid that happening to our
> >> egroup. Any suggestions?
> >> Ken
> >To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
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> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> *********** END QUOTE *************
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- --- Dawn <dawn@...> wrote:
>A number of people have mentioned the confusion and balkanization that
> Dividing into multiple forums as was suggested does feel unnatural
> and, as
> somebody pointed out, would result in confusion as to what list would
> the best experience. AND would result in a lot of good information
would result from multiple forums. I disagree.
Confusion as to the appropriate forum is essentially the same problem
as with confusion as to what keyword to put into the subject. People
who are using the keywords as filters are in the same situation as
people who only subscribe to a subset of the lists/forums.
The (bad) balkanization problem is a result of both divisions that
aren't well defined and the technology. Mailing lists and news groups
are particularly prone to this problem, but other online forums can
reduce or even eliminate the problem. Many bboards allow discussions
to be moved from one forum (really a subforum) to another.
Personally, my favorite is the Propsero technology, use by many
services and available at DelphiForums for individuals and groups.
See, for example, Inifinite Loops (general programming discussion) at
http://forums.delphiforums.com/infinite_loops/messages or the About
Linux forum at http://forums.about.com/ab-linux/messages .
My point is that these are all problems that can be solved. To borrow
from Ken Schwaber's first exercise at the Scrum class, we should be
looking at this issue from the "yes, and..." perspective, not the "yes,
but ..." perspective.
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