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RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: "metaphor" article

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  • Clarke Ching
    Hi everyone, I missed the start of this thread so odds are I m completely off target here. I recently discovered an analogoy or metaphor (what s the
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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      Hi everyone,
       
      I missed the start of this thread so odds are I'm completely off target here.
       
      I recently discovered an analogoy or metaphor (what's the difference?) for the waterfall way of doing things. 
       
      I'm sure there are many things wrong with it and I may be accussed of sharing too much informaiton ... but ... take a look.
       
      Warning: it involves dried apricots, the band Simple Minds and rather hurried taxi trip:
       
       
      Clarke
    • Karl Scotland
      ... Now that s a particularly interesting one to me, being in the digital TV domain! Do you have any more info? Links? Tried google with no luck! Karl
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
        >
        > Do a google search on "software is like" and you're sure to
        > find that it's like just about everything, including:
        >
        > Like TiVo

        Now that's a particularly interesting one to me, being in the digital TV
        domain! Do you have any more info? Links? Tried google with no luck!

        Karl
      • Mike Cohn
        I checked that metaphor more and it was a bit of false match on software is like.. Here s a link: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041116/165431_1.html The statement
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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          I checked that metaphor more and it was a bit of false match on "software is
          like.."

          Here's a link: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041116/165431_1.html

          The statement it makes is that our "software is like tivo for streaming
          media." So it's a description of their product, not the software process
          itself.

          --Mike

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Karl Scotland [mailto:kscotland@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 8:43 AM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Help - looking for recent "metaphor" article



          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
          >
          > Do a google search on "software is like" and you're sure to
          > find that it's like just about everything, including:
          >
          > Like TiVo

          Now that's a particularly interesting one to me, being in the digital TV
          domain! Do you have any more info? Links? Tried google with no luck!

          Karl



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        • aacockburn
          ... target ... difference?) for ... of ... rather ... Fascinating analogy! However, for the analogy to be meaningful, you would want the reader to infer that
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Clarke Ching" <lists@c...>
            wrote:
            > Hi everyone,
            >
            > I missed the start of this thread so odds are I'm completely off
            target
            > here.
            >
            > I recently discovered an analogoy or metaphor (what's the
            difference?) for
            > the waterfall way of doing things.
            >
            > I'm sure there are many things wrong with it and I may be accussed
            of
            > sharing too much informaiton ... but ... take a look.
            >
            > Warning: it involves dried apricots, the band Simple Minds and
            rather
            > hurried taxi trip:
            >
            > http://www.clarkeching.com/2004/11/simple_minds_dr.html
            >
            > Clarke


            Fascinating analogy! However, for the analogy to be meaningful, you
            would want the reader to infer that if you eat 5 dried apricots you
            go to the bathroom for a 3 minute visit, and if you eat 10 dried
            apricots you go to the bathroom for a 8 minute visit, and if you eat
            20 dried apricots you run to the bathroom and stay in there for half
            an hour.

            I'm not sure dried apricots have that effect. That is the effect of
            doing / not doing incremental integration and testing though, which
            is what you're working to communicate.

            And I am stumped over one thing --- don't they have bathrooms at
            Simple Minds concerts? ;-)
          • Deb
            So, it seems the short answer is: Nobody recognises the article I m looking for, from my description. Oh well. I had started reading it and somehow lost track
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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              So, it seems the short answer is:
              Nobody recognises the article I'm looking for, from my description.
              Oh well. I had started reading it and somehow lost track of it.
              Well, if anyone spots it on the web, please let me know.
              Thanks!
              deb

              PS: didn't find the link I wanted, but there has been lots of
              interesting conversation on the topic - bonus! :-)

              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Cohn" <mike@m...>
              wrote:
              > I checked that metaphor more and it was a bit of false match
              on "software is
              > like.."
              >
              > Here's a link: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041116/165431_1.html
              >
              > The statement it makes is that our "software is like tivo for
              streaming
              > media." So it's a description of their product, not the software
              process
              > itself.
              >
              > --Mike
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Karl Scotland [mailto:kscotland@t...]
              > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 8:43 AM
              > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Help - looking for
              recent "metaphor" article
              >
              >
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@m...]
              > >
              > > Do a google search on "software is like" and you're sure to
              > > find that it's like just about everything, including:
              > >
              > > Like TiVo
              >
              > Now that's a particularly interesting one to me, being in the
              digital TV
              > domain! Do you have any more info? Links? Tried google with no
              luck!
              >
              > Karl
              >
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
            • woynam
              Given the recent string of hot threads, I d propose the following: Agile software development is like teen sex: - Everybody is talking about it - Most are
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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                Given the recent string of "hot" threads, I'd propose the following:

                Agile software development is like teen sex:

                - Everybody is talking about it
                - Most are not doing it
                - Those that are doing it, are doing it wrong

                ;-)

                Mark

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <deborah@h...> wrote:
                >
                > I recently saw a blog or article somewhere (???) recently, where
                > someone in this crowd was reflecting on suitable metaphors for what
                we
                > do. Specifically, I believe it was an alternative to the
                manufacturing
                > metaphor. Might have been following OOPSLA in Vancouver?
                >
                > Can anyone suggest what I might be looking for and where I can find
                > it? I've searched my blogs and the Agile Alliance library to no
                avail...
                >
                > I think I've reached saturation... or old timers disease is
                starting :-)
                > deb
              • Hubert Smits
                Hi Todd, While building an Internet Bank in Scotland the metaphore used by the team was that of a production line. On a production line a car (for example)
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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                  Hi Todd,

                  While building an Internet Bank in Scotland the metaphore used by the
                  team was that of a production line. On a production line a car (for
                  example) goes from station to station. Each station adds a nut or bolt
                  and at the end of the line a car rolls of. The process in the bank,
                  and the IT system supporting it was based on this idea: every station
                  adds something to the product (a mortgage or a loan). E.g. a station
                  provides information (rates, payback periods etc). Then a station
                  takes details of the customer and the desired product. Next one does a
                  credit check. Then paperwork is printed. Paperwork checked. Money
                  released. Postings made to the GL etc. etc.

                  Is that a metaphor you were looking for?

                  --Hubert


                  On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:47:34 -0800, todd <todd@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Joseph Pelrine wrote:
                  >
                  > > At 20:50 27.11.2004, you wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >I think any thing of any complexity becomes its own metaphor. Saying
                  > > >software is like X doesn't add much light. It reflects more of the story
                  > > >teller than the story.
                  > >
                  > > I beg to disagree.
                  >
                  > No need to beg. I don't really disagree with much of what you said, yet
                  > i have not seen
                  > useful broad scale software related metaphors. Perhaps you can share
                  > some you like?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Dion Stewart
                  Deb, Could these be it? http://www.domaindrivendesign.org/wiki/?page=SoftwareDevelopmentIsLike http://domaindrivendesign.org/articles/blog/
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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                    Deb,

                    Could these be it?

                    http://www.domaindrivendesign.org/wiki/?page=SoftwareDevelopmentIsLike

                    http://domaindrivendesign.org/articles/blog/
                    evans_eric_software_is_not_like_that.html

                    Dion


                    On Wednesday, December 1, 2004, at 01:20 PM, Deb wrote:

                    > So, it seems the short answer is:
                    > Nobody recognises the article I'm looking for, from my description.
                    > Oh well. I had started reading it and somehow lost track of it.
                    > Well, if anyone spots it on the web, please let me know.
                    > Thanks!
                    > deb
                  • Mike Dwyer
                    15 yards, woyman unnecessary metaphor. Penalty to be taken from the time your users ask for another insane last minute change. (^8 Michael F. Dwyer
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
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                      15 yards, woyman unnecessary metaphor. Penalty to be taken from the time
                      your users ask for another insane last minute change.

                      (^8

                      Michael F. Dwyer

                      Mike.Dwyer1@...



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: woynam [mailto:woyna@...]
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:23 PM
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Help - looking for recent "metaphor" article



                      Given the recent string of "hot" threads, I'd propose the following:

                      Agile software development is like teen sex:

                      - Everybody is talking about it
                      - Most are not doing it
                      - Those that are doing it, are doing it wrong

                      ;-)

                      Mark

                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <deborah@h...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I recently saw a blog or article somewhere (???) recently, where
                      > someone in this crowd was reflecting on suitable metaphors for what
                      we
                      > do. Specifically, I believe it was an alternative to the
                      manufacturing
                      > metaphor. Might have been following OOPSLA in Vancouver?
                      >
                      > Can anyone suggest what I might be looking for and where I can find
                      > it? I've searched my blogs and the Agile Alliance library to no
                      avail...
                      >
                      > I think I've reached saturation... or old timers disease is
                      starting :-)
                      > deb






                      To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
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                    • Karl Scotland
                      Ah. That s a shame. Mind you, it makes me wonder whether I could come up with a tv related metaphor that would really work where I am, or whether it might be
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
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                        Ah. That's a shame.
                        Mind you, it makes me wonder whether I could come up with a tv related
                        metaphor that would really work where I am, or whether it might be a bit
                        contrived.

                        Karl

                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                        >
                        > I checked that metaphor more and it was a bit of false match
                        > on "software is like.."
                        >
                        > Here's a link: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041116/165431_1.html
                        >
                        > The statement it makes is that our "software is like tivo for
                        > streaming media." So it's a description of their product,
                        > not the software process itself.
                        >
                        > --Mike
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Karl Scotland [mailto:kscotland@...]
                        >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                        > >
                        > > Do a google search on "software is like" and you're sure to
                        > > find that it's like just about everything, including:
                        > >
                        > > Like TiVo
                        >
                        > Now that's a particularly interesting one to me, being in the
                        > digital TV domain! Do you have any more info? Links? Tried
                        > google with no luck!
                        >
                      • Joseph Pelrine
                        ... How about starting with something like writing software is like working for the BBC , and see how far that analogy gets you ;-) Cheers -- Joseph Pelrine [
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
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                          At 09:51 02.12.2004, you wrote:

                          >Ah. That's a shame.
                          >Mind you, it makes me wonder whether I could come up with a tv related
                          >metaphor that would really work where I am, or whether it might be a bit
                          >contrived.

                          How about starting with something like "writing software is like working
                          for the BBC", and see how far that analogy gets you ;-)

                          Cheers

                          --
                          Joseph Pelrine [ | ]
                          MetaProg GmbH
                          Email: jpelrine@...
                          Web: http://www.metaprog.com

                          You don't become enormously successful without encountering some really
                          interesting problems.
                          - Mark Victor Hansen
                        • Karl Scotland
                          ... That could get me into a whole lot of trouble as I m now working for a competitor (in so far as the BBC has competitors :) Karl
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
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                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Joseph Pelrine [mailto:jpelrine@...]
                            >
                            > How about starting with something like "writing software is
                            > like working
                            > for the BBC", and see how far that analogy gets you ;-)

                            That could get me into a whole lot of trouble as I'm now working for a
                            competitor (in so far as the BBC has competitors :)

                            Karl
                          • todd
                            Hubert, i think there are a lot of tactical metaphors like you describe. They help us bootstrap from one domain to another. But what about your software do i
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
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                              Hubert, i think there are a lot of tactical metaphors like you describe.
                              They
                              help us bootstrap from one domain to another. But what about your software
                              do i really know now?

                              If you are describing the system to a muggle then you have given them a
                              hand up
                              in understanding.

                              As a software developer i see a universe of choices, decisions, options,
                              and implementations
                              that could lead to an infinite set of concrete systems. When i dig into
                              the real system it
                              forms its own domain. In time you will be using your system as the
                              source domain for other metaphoric
                              mappings. It's a cyclic folding and unfolding and of mappings. Pick a
                              different
                              point in the cycle and you will see and understand something differently.

                              Where is the true metaphor? That's like looking at a hologram and saying
                              where is
                              the true image. It is implicate in all parts of the system.

                              Hubert Smits wrote:

                              > Hi Todd,
                              >
                              > While building an Internet Bank in Scotland the metaphore used by the
                              > team was that of a production line. On a production line a car (for
                              > example) goes from station to station. Each station adds a nut or bolt
                              > and at the end of the line a car rolls of. The process in the bank,
                              > and the IT system supporting it was based on this idea: every station
                              > adds something to the product (a mortgage or a loan). E.g. a station
                              > provides information (rates, payback periods etc). Then a station
                              > takes details of the customer and the desired product. Next one does a
                              > credit check. Then paperwork is printed. Paperwork checked. Money
                              > released. Postings made to the GL etc. etc.
                              >
                              > Is that a metaphor you were looking for?
                              >
                              > --Hubert
                              >
                              >
                              > On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:47:34 -0800, todd <todd@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Joseph Pelrine wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > At 20:50 27.11.2004, you wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > >I think any thing of any complexity becomes its own metaphor. Saying
                              > > > >software is like X doesn't add much light. It reflects more of
                              > the story
                              > > > >teller than the story.
                              > > >
                              > > > I beg to disagree.
                              > >
                              > > No need to beg. I don't really disagree with much of what you said, yet
                              > > i have not seen
                              > > useful broad scale software related metaphors. Perhaps you can share
                              > > some you like?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                              > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
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                            • mike.dwyer1@comcast.net
                              The Stone s you can t always get what you want is what I keep on hearing when business people ask for somethings. John Sebastian s Did you ever have to make
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
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                                The Stone's "you can't always get what you want" is what I keep on hearing when business people ask for somethings.
                                 
                                John Sebastian's "Did you ever have to make up your mind." are the words I sing to folks who want to collapse a 9 month project into 1 month.
                                 
                                But the question is are these metaphors or just something simile-r to them.
                                 
                                --
                                Mike Dwyer

                                "I Keep six faithful serving-men
                                Who serve me well and true:
                                Their names are What and Where and When
                                And How and Why and Who." - Kipling
                                 
                                -------------- Original message --------------

                                >
                                > Ah. That's a shame.
                                > Mind you, it makes me wonder whether I could come up with a tv related
                                > metaphor that would really work where I am, or whether it might be a bit
                                > contrived.
                                >
                                > Karl
                                >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                                > >
                                > > I checked that metaphor more and it was a bit of false match
                                > > on "software is like.."
                                > >
                                > > Here's a link: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041116/165431_1.html
                                > >
                                > > The statement it makes is that our "software is like tivo for
                                > > streaming media." So it's a description of their product,
                                > > not the software process itself.
                                > >
                                > > --Mike
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: Karl Scotland [mailto:kscotland@...]
                                > >
                                > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                                > > >
                                > > > Do a google search on "software is like" and you're sure to
                                > > > find that it's like just about everything, including:
                                > > >
                                > > > Like TiVo
                                > >
                                > > Now that's a particularly interesting one to me, being in the
                                > > digital TV domain! Do you have any more info? Links? Tried
                                > > google with no luck!
                                > >
                                >
                                >
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