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Steve Denning

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  • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
    Are any of you following Denning s recent articles on Forbes?  He is killing it for Agile. I especially like the bottom link...
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 17, 2012
      Are any of you following Denning's recent articles on Forbes?  He is "killing it" for Agile.

      I especially like the bottom link...

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/04/29/scrum-is-a-major-management-discovery/
      http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/04/09/the-best-kept-management-secret-on-the-planet-agile/
      http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/04/11/why-cant-the-c-suite-grasp-agile-management/
      http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/04/17/the-case-against-agile-ten-perennial-management-objections/

      Anyone have opinions on Steve's work?  I'm not familiar with it other than passing references to his book.
       
      -------
      Charles Bradley
      http://www.ScrumCrazy.com


    • Derek Neighbors
      #2, #4 & #6 seem to have some merit. #2 - If a C Level executive isn t willing to see a culture change then Agile probably is a bad decision. #4 - We have to
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 17, 2012
        #2, #4 & #6 seem to have some merit.

        #2 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to see a culture change then Agile probably is a bad decision.
        #4 - We have to stop propagating the confirmation biased bullshit that because person X is doing Agile well that distributed teams are "good enough".  Yes you can do Agile in a distributed environment.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
        #6 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to move from individual to team concept Agile is probably a bad idea.

        So why these 3 objections might not be a knock against Agile, if a C Level executive knows they are not willing to make change then perhaps they are not ready for Agile yet.  That is not to say that Agile wouldn't help their company, but ultimately they are not ready.

        Why do we have this predisposition to shove Agile down peoples throats kicking and screaming?  There are plenty of organizations out there they are ready and willing.

        I think that executives don't get Agile because the manifesto itself is flawed.  It is focused solely on the team and talks only about software.  If it was updated to discuss the organization and talk about delivery of product (not just software) then perhaps larger organizations management could see it as something other than a stick to fix their broken software teams.

        Derek Neighbors
        Integrum Technologies


        On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:

      • Steve
        ... Agreed. In my courses, although I present/discuss the Manifesto as written, I stress that if you replace the word software with the word solution ,
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 18, 2012
          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Derek Neighbors <derek@...> wrote:
          > I think that executives don't get Agile because the manifesto itself is flawed. It is focused solely on the team and talks only about software. If it was updated to discuss the organization and talk about delivery of product (not just software) then perhaps larger organizations management could see it as something other than a stick to fix their broken software teams.

          Agreed. In my courses, although I present/discuss the Manifesto as written, I stress that if you replace the word 'software' with the word 'solution', then you can see that this can apply to many (if not most) problem solving projects.

          Maybe 'we' should lobby the Agile Alliance for an update ('inspect and adapt'?)
        • RonJeffries
          Hi Steve, ... The Agile Alliance does not own the Agile Manifesto. Its authors do. The Agile Manifesto is not a how-to manual, it is a report on values and
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 18, 2012
            Hi Steve,

            On Apr 18, 2012, at 4:42 AM, Steve wrote:

            Maybe 'we' should lobby the Agile Alliance for an update ('inspect and adapt'?)

            The Agile Alliance does not own the Agile Manifesto. Its authors do. 
            The Agile Manifesto is not a how-to manual, it is a report on values and principles held by 17 people a decade ago. Most of those people met at the Agile conference last year and reported that we still hold those same values and principles.

            There is no need for an updated Manifesto. If we see value in the ideas of the Manifesto, or in ideas we find anywhere else, we are free to use them anywhere. Have fun!

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            There's no word for accountability in Finnish. 
            Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has been subtracted. 
            --Pasi Sahlberg

          • Stephen Denning
            In my courses, although I present/discuss the Manifesto as written, I stress that if you replace the word software with the word solution , then you can
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 18, 2012
              "In my courses, although I present/discuss the Manifesto as written, I stress that if you replace the word 'software' with the word 'solution', then you can see that this can apply to many (if not most) problem solving projects. Maybe 'we' should lobby the Agile Alliance for an update ('inspect and adapt'?)"

              Actually, Kent Beck did a pretty good job of applying "inspect and adapt" to the Manifesto as discussed here:
              http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/05/04/innovation-applying-inspect-adapt-to-the-agile-manifesto/

              However I agree with Ron Jeffries's comment just posted. I am not sure about the feasibility or even the wisdom of issuing an update to the Manifesto itself. It's an important historical document that served a particular purpose at a particular place and time and continues to live and inspire. It's kind of like Magna Carta or Martin Luther's 95 Theses. These are historical landmarks. You can't really update them, even though you can see that there are things that could be added or said differently.

              To my mind, the more important challenge now is to forge a broader coalition to extend the spirit of Agile to management more generally.

              In any event, this is one of the questions that we will be discussing on the (free) monthly mashup on "Making the Entire Organization Agile" that Peter Stevens and I are holding today Wednesday April 18 at noon ET US in case you would like to join the discussion and participate. Register at https://www4.gotomeeting.com/register/845892863

              Steve Denning
              Forbes blog: http://blogs.forbes.com/stevedenning/
              The Leader's Guide to Radical Management
              http://www.stevedenning.com/Books/radical-management.aspx
              Twitter: @stevedenning
              Email: steve@...
              Web: http://stevedenning.com

            • Peter Stevens
              Hi Derek, I don t think the manifesto is flawed, not at all: in 73 words it defined a movement and an identity that unites people today, and its influence
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 18, 2012
                Hi Derek,

                I don't think the manifesto is flawed, not at all: in 73 words it defined a movement and an identity that unites people today, and its influence extends even beyond software.

                Nor do I don't think this is about shoving anything down anybody's throat. I do believe the agile mindset should become the standard way of thinking, even at the top levels of a large organization. This change is necessary because classically managed companies are suffering and dying.

                How many agile transitions have been initiated at the middle management level, only to encounter apathy, resistance or worse from levels above or departments on either side of the teams making the transition? How many successful transitions have eventually wilted in the face of apathy or resistance from the rest of the organization? This fate is shared by virtually all creative initiatives in the face of command-and-control management. For agile development to thrive, the rest of the organization must be agile as well.

                Modern management was invented by Taylor, Ford and Sloan and hasn't really changed much since the 1950's. Manage the company by managing the financial results, directive command-and-control to get people to show up and do their work, and focus on utilization, output and efficiency: all these are were developed to mass produce cars and were largely adopted by large organizations throughout the world.

                Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy. The results show that profitability is stagnating (or worse) and even top companies are folding faster than ever before. A change is necessary.

                Agile is the vanguard of a general change in management, beyond "just" software. At the moment, it is seldom on the radar screens of today's MBA trained managers.

                The purpose of Stoos (which Steve Denning and I participated in) is to build that bridge from Agile to general management. A big A-ha moment for one of the MBA professors at the Stoos Gathering was 'look at all this wonderful literature, arguing for and reporting on what I have been trying to get people to do for years - how come I've never heard of any of it?!'

                Best,

                Peter

                On 17.04.12 21:44, Derek Neighbors wrote:  

                #2, #4 & #6 seem to have some merit.


                #2 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to see a culture change then Agile probably is a bad decision.
                #4 - We have to stop propagating the confirmation biased bullshit that because person X is doing Agile well that distributed teams are "good enough".  Yes you can do Agile in a distributed environment.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
                #6 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to move from individual to team concept Agile is probably a bad idea.

                So why these 3 objections might not be a knock against Agile, if a C Level executive knows they are not willing to make change then perhaps they are not ready for Agile yet.  That is not to say that Agile wouldn't help their company, but ultimately they are not ready.

                Why do we have this predisposition to shove Agile down peoples throats kicking and screaming?  There are plenty of organizations out there they are ready and willing.

                I think that executives don't get Agile because the manifesto itself is flawed.  It is focused solely on the team and talks only about software.  If it was updated to discuss the organization and talk about delivery of product (not just software) then perhaps larger organizations management could see it as something other than a stick to fix their broken software teams.

                Derek Neighbors
                Integrum Technologies


                On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:



                -- 
                Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                blog:          http://scrum-breakfast.com
                
              • Kurt Häusler
                ... No. People like Deming, Goldratt, Ohno, (and several others that I am not yet that familiar with) are the vanguards of general change in management (to the
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 18, 2012
                  On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Peter Stevens <peterstev@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Agile is the vanguard of a general change in management, beyond "just" software. At the moment, it is seldom on the radar screens of today's MBA trained managers.

                  No. People like Deming, Goldratt, Ohno, (and several others that I am
                  not yet that familiar with) are the vanguards of general change in
                  management (to the extent that there is yet much of a change), perhaps
                  being joined by some more recent ideas like rightshifting, beyong
                  budgeting, radical management, the "Stoos" movement etc . Agile is
                  just a realization of that change in the world of software.

                  I don't have an MBA, but I recently finished a post-graduate
                  management degree, and while Agile is great for developing and
                  delivering software, its nothing that anyone outside of software
                  development needs to be interested in. Agile should only be discussed
                  in relation to software development. However we certainly did pay
                  attention to agile-like ideas that are useful outside software
                  development, like systems and complexity thinking, servant leadership,
                  intrinsic motivation, Deming, TOC, the TPS, high trust cultures etc.

                  I wish people would stop trying to push Agile software development
                  down managers throats as if were somehow a better basis for an
                  organisational value system than all those good things that aren't so
                  software specific. It just makes the whole thing more confusing and
                  difficult.

                  Why push rocks uphill, and try and convince managers that Agile
                  software development is somehow the right thing to base their whole
                  organisation on? Why not just show them e.g. Deming's System of
                  Profound Knowledge, or explain servant leadership or systems thinking
                  instead?
                • srinivas chillara
                  Well said Peter! Though I must point out that this sentence on it s own, prima facie, is a bit confusing: Not only is the foundation of modern management
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 18, 2012
                    Well said Peter! Though I must point out that this sentence on it's own, prima facie, is a bit confusing:
                    "Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy."
                    How modern is "modern management"!?! It seems medieval.  How times have changed and how much more they should?

                    cheers
                    Srinivas




                    From: Peter Stevens <peterstev@...>
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 4:47 PM
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning

                     
                    Hi Derek,

                    I don't think the manifesto is flawed, not at all: in 73 words it defined a movement and an identity that unites people today, and its influence extends even beyond software.

                    Nor do I don't think this is about shoving anything down anybody's throat. I do believe the agile mindset should become the standard way of thinking, even at the top levels of a large organization. This change is necessary because classically managed companies are suffering and dying.

                    How many agile transitions have been initiated at the middle management level, only to encounter apathy, resistance or worse from levels above or departments on either side of the teams making the transition? How many successful transitions have eventually wilted in the face of apathy or resistance from the rest of the organization? This fate is shared by virtually all creative initiatives in the face of command-and-control management. For agile development to thrive, the rest of the organization must be agile as well.

                    Modern management was invented by Taylor, Ford and Sloan and hasn't really changed much since the 1950's. Manage the company by managing the financial results, directive command-and-control to get people to show up and do their work, and focus on utilization, output and efficiency: all these are were developed to mass produce cars and were largely adopted by large organizations throughout the world.

                    Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy. The results show that profitability is stagnating (or worse) and even top companies are folding faster than ever before. A change is necessary.

                    Agile is the vanguard of a general change in management, beyond "just" software. At the moment, it is seldom on the radar screens of today's MBA trained managers.

                    The purpose of Stoos (which Steve Denning and I participated in) is to build that bridge from Agile to general management. A big A-ha moment for one of the MBA professors at the Stoos Gathering was 'look at all this wonderful literature, arguing for and reporting on what I have been trying to get people to do for years - how come I've never heard of any of it?!'

                    Best,

                    Peter

                    On 17.04.12 21:44, Derek Neighbors wrote:
                     
                    #2, #4 & #6 seem to have some merit.

                    #2 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to see a culture change then Agile probably is a bad decision.
                    #4 - We have to stop propagating the confirmation biased bullshit that because person X is doing Agile well that distributed teams are "good enough".  Yes you can do Agile in a distributed environment.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
                    #6 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to move from individual to team concept Agile is probably a bad idea.

                    So why these 3 objections might not be a knock against Agile, if a C Level executive knows they are not willing to make change then perhaps they are not ready for Agile yet.  That is not to say that Agile wouldn't help their company, but ultimately they are not ready.

                    Why do we have this predisposition to shove Agile down peoples throats kicking and screaming?  There are plenty of organizations out there they are ready and willing.

                    I think that executives don't get Agile because the manifesto itself is flawed.  It is focused solely on the team and talks only about software.  If it was updated to discuss the organization and talk about delivery of product (not just software) then perhaps larger organizations management could see it as something other than a stick to fix their broken software teams.

                    Derek Neighbors
                    Integrum Technologies


                    On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:



                    -- 
                    Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                    blog:          http://scrum-breakfast.com
                    


                  • lszyrmer
                    Kurt, There are two rather big reasons: 1. Because product lifecycles in most industries are shrinking, and agile techniques help companies respond much more
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 18, 2012
                      Kurt,

                      There are two rather big reasons:
                      1. Because product lifecycles in most industries are shrinking, and agile techniques help companies respond much more effectively. Management, including project management, doesn't function in a vacuum. Marketing and what customers actually want is what drives sales which keeps companies going. Finance helps make sure that the company is making money. While agile seems focussed on producing software, it's more about getting cross functional involvement and open communication to produce great products quickly.
                      2. Software is embedded in many non-software businesses, so the economics of software creation affects most of them. For example, a vet doesn't care how his software is made, but his business can be significantly improved if the software running his practice has relevant features he requested, and it works well. It's just become so transparent and ubiquitous that it's easy to forget how business looked, even in the 80s before the Internet. (Library "card catalogs" used to be everywhere). The people (Goldratt, Ohno) you cited were primarily from a manufacturing background, which is important, but rapidly becoming a much smaller part of the global economy.

                      I guess what I'm saying is that software within a business underlies its competitive advantage, so an executive (ourside of software) will be more effective he/she really understands the agile angle. By this I mean not only the values but also the various framework tools, e.g. embedded real options.

                      Luke


                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Häusler <kurt.haeusler@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Peter Stevens <peterstev@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Agile is the vanguard of a general change in management, beyond "just" software. At the moment, it is seldom on the radar screens of today's MBA trained managers.
                      >
                      > No. People like Deming, Goldratt, Ohno, (and several others that I am
                      > not yet that familiar with) are the vanguards of general change in
                      > management (to the extent that there is yet much of a change), perhaps
                      > being joined by some more recent ideas like rightshifting, beyong
                      > budgeting, radical management, the "Stoos" movement etc . Agile is
                      > just a realization of that change in the world of software.
                      >
                      > I don't have an MBA, but I recently finished a post-graduate
                      > management degree, and while Agile is great for developing and
                      > delivering software, its nothing that anyone outside of software
                      > development needs to be interested in. Agile should only be discussed
                      > in relation to software development. However we certainly did pay
                      > attention to agile-like ideas that are useful outside software
                      > development, like systems and complexity thinking, servant leadership,
                      > intrinsic motivation, Deming, TOC, the TPS, high trust cultures etc.
                      >
                      > I wish people would stop trying to push Agile software development
                      > down managers throats as if were somehow a better basis for an
                      > organisational value system than all those good things that aren't so
                      > software specific. It just makes the whole thing more confusing and
                      > difficult.
                      >
                      > Why push rocks uphill, and try and convince managers that Agile
                      > software development is somehow the right thing to base their whole
                      > organisation on? Why not just show them e.g. Deming's System of
                      > Profound Knowledge, or explain servant leadership or systems thinking
                      > instead?
                      >
                    • Peter Stevens
                      This was great! Two responses - one says right on, the other says total nonsense! Cool. On 18.04.12 08:04, srinivas chillara wrote:   Well said Peter! Though
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 18, 2012
                        This was great! Two responses - one says right on, the other says total nonsense! Cool.

                        On 18.04.12 08:04, srinivas chillara wrote:  
                        Well said Peter! Though I must point out that this sentence on it's own, prima facie, is a bit confusing:
                        "Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy."
                        How modern is "modern management"!?! It seems medieval.  How times have changed and how much more they should?

                        cheers
                        Srinivas




                        From: Peter Stevens <peterstev@...>
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 4:47 PM
                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning

                         
                        Hi Derek,

                        I don't think the manifesto is flawed, not at all: in 73 words it defined a movement and an identity that unites people today, and its influence extends even beyond software.

                        Nor do I don't think this is about shoving anything down anybody's throat. I do believe the agile mindset should become the standard way of thinking, even at the top levels of a large organization. This change is necessary because classically managed companies are suffering and dying.

                        How many agile transitions have been initiated at the middle management level, only to encounter apathy, resistance or worse from levels above or departments on either side of the teams making the transition? How many successful transitions have eventually wilted in the face of apathy or resistance from the rest of the organization? This fate is shared by virtually all creative initiatives in the face of command-and-control management. For agile development to thrive, the rest of the organization must be agile as well.

                        Modern management was invented by Taylor, Ford and Sloan and hasn't really changed much since the 1950's. Manage the company by managing the financial results, directive command-and-control to get people to show up and do their work, and focus on utilization, output and efficiency: all these are were developed to mass produce cars and were largely adopted by large organizations throughout the world.

                        Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy. The results show that profitability is stagnating (or worse) and even top companies are folding faster than ever before. A change is necessary.

                        Agile is the vanguard of a general change in management, beyond "just" software. At the moment, it is seldom on the radar screens of today's MBA trained managers.

                        The purpose of Stoos (which Steve Denning and I participated in) is to build that bridge from Agile to general management. A big A-ha moment for one of the MBA professors at the Stoos Gathering was 'look at all this wonderful literature, arguing for and reporting on what I have been trying to get people to do for years - how come I've never heard of any of it?!'

                        Best,

                        Peter

                        On 17.04.12 21:44, Derek Neighbors wrote:
                         
                        #2, #4 & #6 seem to have some merit.

                        #2 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to see a culture change then Agile probably is a bad decision.
                        #4 - We have to stop propagating the confirmation biased bullshit that because person X is doing Agile well that distributed teams are "good enough".  Yes you can do Agile in a distributed environment.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
                        #6 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to move from individual to team concept Agile is probably a bad idea.

                        So why these 3 objections might not be a knock against Agile, if a C Level executive knows they are not willing to make change then perhaps they are not ready for Agile yet.  That is not to say that Agile wouldn't help their company, but ultimately they are not ready.

                        Why do we have this predisposition to shove Agile down peoples throats kicking and screaming?  There are plenty of organizations out there they are ready and willing.

                        I think that executives don't get Agile because the manifesto itself is flawed.  It is focused solely on the team and talks only about software.  If it was updated to discuss the organization and talk about delivery of product (not just software) then perhaps larger organizations management could see it as something other than a stick to fix their broken software teams.

                        Derek Neighbors
                        Integrum Technologies


                        On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:



                        -- 
                        Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                        blog:          http://scrum-breakfast.com
                        




                        -- 
                        Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                        blog:          http://scrum-breakfast.com
                        
                      • Peter Stevens
                        Modern management is the decentralized organization. Taylor invented empiricism Ford invented mass production Sloan invented the decentralized organization
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 18, 2012
                          "Modern" management is the decentralized organization.
                          • Taylor invented empiricism
                          • Ford invented mass production
                          • Sloan invented the decentralized organization (manage an enterprise by the financial results of its subsidiaries).

                          And yes, many organizations do resemble feudal hierarchies.

                          Modern management made the 20th century possible, but the vision of the machine as model people should emulate has faded. We are not machines and neither are corporations (although you will find people who argue that a corporation is/should be a machine).

                          Today it looks like a network model is a more accurate model of an organization, both internally and in its environment. So management needs to change accordingly.

                          Best,

                          Peter


                          On 18.04.12 08:04, srinivas chillara wrote:  
                          Well said Peter! Though I must point out that this sentence on it's own, prima facie, is a bit confusing:
                          "Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy."
                          How modern is "modern management"!?! It seems medieval.  How times have changed and how much more they should?

                          cheers
                          Srinivas




                          From: Peter Stevens <peterstev@...>
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 4:47 PM
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning

                           
                          Hi Derek,

                          I don't think the manifesto is flawed, not at all: in 73 words it defined a movement and an identity that unites people today, and its influence extends even beyond software.

                          Nor do I don't think this is about shoving anything down anybody's throat. I do believe the agile mindset should become the standard way of thinking, even at the top levels of a large organization. This change is necessary because classically managed companies are suffering and dying.

                          How many agile transitions have been initiated at the middle management level, only to encounter apathy, resistance or worse from levels above or departments on either side of the teams making the transition? How many successful transitions have eventually wilted in the face of apathy or resistance from the rest of the organization? This fate is shared by virtually all creative initiatives in the face of command-and-control management. For agile development to thrive, the rest of the organization must be agile as well.

                          Modern management was invented by Taylor, Ford and Sloan and hasn't really changed much since the 1950's. Manage the company by managing the financial results, directive command-and-control to get people to show up and do their work, and focus on utilization, output and efficiency: all these are were developed to mass produce cars and were largely adopted by large organizations throughout the world.

                          Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy. The results show that profitability is stagnating (or worse) and even top companies are folding faster than ever before. A change is necessary.

                          Agile is the vanguard of a general change in management, beyond "just" software. At the moment, it is seldom on the radar screens of today's MBA trained managers.

                          The purpose of Stoos (which Steve Denning and I participated in) is to build that bridge from Agile to general management. A big A-ha moment for one of the MBA professors at the Stoos Gathering was 'look at all this wonderful literature, arguing for and reporting on what I have been trying to get people to do for years - how come I've never heard of any of it?!'

                          Best,

                          Peter

                          On 17.04.12 21:44, Derek Neighbors wrote:
                           
                          #2, #4 & #6 seem to have some merit.

                          #2 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to see a culture change then Agile probably is a bad decision.
                          #4 - We have to stop propagating the confirmation biased bullshit that because person X is doing Agile well that distributed teams are "good enough".  Yes you can do Agile in a distributed environment.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
                          #6 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to move from individual to team concept Agile is probably a bad idea.

                          So why these 3 objections might not be a knock against Agile, if a C Level executive knows they are not willing to make change then perhaps they are not ready for Agile yet.  That is not to say that Agile wouldn't help their company, but ultimately they are not ready.

                          Why do we have this predisposition to shove Agile down peoples throats kicking and screaming?  There are plenty of organizations out there they are ready and willing.

                          I think that executives don't get Agile because the manifesto itself is flawed.  It is focused solely on the team and talks only about software.  If it was updated to discuss the organization and talk about delivery of product (not just software) then perhaps larger organizations management could see it as something other than a stick to fix their broken software teams.

                          Derek Neighbors
                          Integrum Technologies


                          On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:



                          -- 
                          Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                          blog:          http://scrum-breakfast.com
                          




                          -- 
                          Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                          blog:          http://scrum-breakfast.com
                          
                        • srinivas chillara
                          Well, I can see Kurt s point as well. And I don t think he s saying total nonsense (I certainly am, not) Basically not everything we as a community bring are
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 18, 2012
                            Well, I can see Kurt's point as well. And I don't think he's saying "total nonsense" (I certainly am, not)
                            Basically not everything we as a community bring are new ideas(to the evolved managers outside IT), but some of then are; and we as a community have bringing a certain combination(s) of ideas. So we should reach out to beyond IT;
                            Cross-pollination, anyone!

                            cheers
                            Srinivas
                            ceezone.wordpress.com



                            From: Peter Stevens <peterstev@...>
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 6:10 PM
                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning

                             
                            This was great! Two responses - one says right on, the other says total nonsense! Cool.

                            On 18.04.12 08:04, srinivas chillara wrote:
                             
                            Well said Peter! Though I must point out that this sentence on it's own, prima facie, is a bit confusing:
                            "Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy."
                            How modern is "modern management"!?! It seems medieval.  How times have changed and how much more they should?

                            cheers
                            Srinivas




                            From: Peter Stevens <peterstev@...>
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 4:47 PM
                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning

                             
                            Hi Derek,

                            I don't think the manifesto is flawed, not at all: in 73 words it defined a movement and an identity that unites people today, and its influence extends even beyond software.

                            Nor do I don't think this is about shoving anything down anybody's throat. I do believe the agile mindset should become the standard way of thinking, even at the top levels of a large organization. This change is necessary because classically managed companies are suffering and dying.

                            How many agile transitions have been initiated at the middle management level, only to encounter apathy, resistance or worse from levels above or departments on either side of the teams making the transition? How many successful transitions have eventually wilted in the face of apathy or resistance from the rest of the organization? This fate is shared by virtually all creative initiatives in the face of command-and-control management. For agile development to thrive, the rest of the organization must be agile as well.

                            Modern management was invented by Taylor, Ford and Sloan and hasn't really changed much since the 1950's. Manage the company by managing the financial results, directive command-and-control to get people to show up and do their work, and focus on utilization, output and efficiency: all these are were developed to mass produce cars and were largely adopted by large organizations throughout the world.

                            Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy. The results show that profitability is stagnating (or worse) and even top companies are folding faster than ever before. A change is necessary.

                            Agile is the vanguard of a general change in management, beyond "just" software. At the moment, it is seldom on the radar screens of today's MBA trained managers.

                            The purpose of Stoos (which Steve Denning and I participated in) is to build that bridge from Agile to general management. A big A-ha moment for one of the MBA professors at the Stoos Gathering was 'look at all this wonderful literature, arguing for and reporting on what I have been trying to get people to do for years - how come I've never heard of any of it?!'

                            Best,

                            Peter

                            On 17.04.12 21:44, Derek Neighbors wrote:
                             
                            #2, #4 & #6 seem to have some merit.

                            #2 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to see a culture change then Agile probably is a bad decision.
                            #4 - We have to stop propagating the confirmation biased bullshit that because person X is doing Agile well that distributed teams are "good enough".  Yes you can do Agile in a distributed environment.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
                            #6 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to move from individual to team concept Agile is probably a bad idea.

                            So why these 3 objections might not be a knock against Agile, if a C Level executive knows they are not willing to make change then perhaps they are not ready for Agile yet.  That is not to say that Agile wouldn't help their company, but ultimately they are not ready.

                            Why do we have this predisposition to shove Agile down peoples throats kicking and screaming?  There are plenty of organizations out there they are ready and willing.

                            I think that executives don't get Agile because the manifesto itself is flawed.  It is focused solely on the team and talks only about software.  If it was updated to discuss the organization and talk about delivery of product (not just software) then perhaps larger organizations management could see it as something other than a stick to fix their broken software teams.

                            Derek Neighbors
                            Integrum Technologies


                            On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:



                            -- 
                            Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                            blog:          http://scrum-breakfast.com
                            




                            -- 
                            Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                            blog:          http://scrum-breakfast.com
                            


                          • srinivas chillara
                            Modern, but not quite avant garde , aye!?! cheers Srinivas ceezone.wordpress.com ________________________________ From: Peter Stevens
                            Message 13 of 21 , Apr 18, 2012
                              Modern, but not quite "avant garde", aye!?!

                              cheers
                              Srinivas
                              ceezone.wordpress.com


                              From: Peter Stevens <peterstev@...>
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 6:16 PM
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning

                               
                              "Modern" management is the decentralized organization.
                              • Taylor invented empiricism
                              • Ford invented mass production
                              • Sloan invented the decentralized organization (manage an enterprise by the financial results of its subsidiaries).
                              And yes, many organizations do resemble feudal hierarchies.
                              Modern management made the 20th century possible, but the vision of the machine as model people should emulate has faded. We are not machines and neither are corporations (although you will find people who argue that a corporation is/should be a machine).
                              Today it looks like a network model is a more accurate model of an organization, both internally and in its environment. So management needs to change accordingly.
                              Best,
                              Peter

                              On 18.04.12 08:04, srinivas chillara wrote:
                               
                              Well said Peter! Though I must point out that this sentence on it's own, prima facie, is a bit confusing:
                              "Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy."
                              How modern is "modern management"!?! It seems medieval.  How times have changed and how much more they should?

                              cheers
                              Srinivas




                              From: Peter Stevens <peterstev@...>
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 4:47 PM
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning

                               
                              Hi Derek,

                              I don't think the manifesto is flawed, not at all: in 73 words it defined a movement and an identity that unites people today, and its influence extends even beyond software.

                              Nor do I don't think this is about shoving anything down anybody's throat. I do believe the agile mindset should become the standard way of thinking, even at the top levels of a large organization. This change is necessary because classically managed companies are suffering and dying.

                              How many agile transitions have been initiated at the middle management level, only to encounter apathy, resistance or worse from levels above or departments on either side of the teams making the transition? How many successful transitions have eventually wilted in the face of apathy or resistance from the rest of the organization? This fate is shared by virtually all creative initiatives in the face of command-and-control management. For agile development to thrive, the rest of the organization must be agile as well.

                              Modern management was invented by Taylor, Ford and Sloan and hasn't really changed much since the 1950's. Manage the company by managing the financial results, directive command-and-control to get people to show up and do their work, and focus on utilization, output and efficiency: all these are were developed to mass produce cars and were largely adopted by large organizations throughout the world.

                              Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy. The results show that profitability is stagnating (or worse) and even top companies are folding faster than ever before. A change is necessary.

                              Agile is the vanguard of a general change in management, beyond "just" software. At the moment, it is seldom on the radar screens of today's MBA trained managers.

                              The purpose of Stoos (which Steve Denning and I participated in) is to build that bridge from Agile to general management. A big A-ha moment for one of the MBA professors at the Stoos Gathering was 'look at all this wonderful literature, arguing for and reporting on what I have been trying to get people to do for years - how come I've never heard of any of it?!'

                              Best,

                              Peter

                              On 17.04.12 21:44, Derek Neighbors wrote:
                               
                              #2, #4 & #6 seem to have some merit.

                              #2 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to see a culture change then Agile probably is a bad decision.
                              #4 - We have to stop propagating the confirmation biased bullshit that because person X is doing Agile well that distributed teams are "good enough".  Yes you can do Agile in a distributed environment.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
                              #6 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to move from individual to team concept Agile is probably a bad idea.

                              So why these 3 objections might not be a knock against Agile, if a C Level executive knows they are not willing to make change then perhaps they are not ready for Agile yet.  That is not to say that Agile wouldn't help their company, but ultimately they are not ready.

                              Why do we have this predisposition to shove Agile down peoples throats kicking and screaming?  There are plenty of organizations out there they are ready and willing.

                              I think that executives don't get Agile because the manifesto itself is flawed.  It is focused solely on the team and talks only about software.  If it was updated to discuss the organization and talk about delivery of product (not just software) then perhaps larger organizations management could see it as something other than a stick to fix their broken software teams.

                              Derek Neighbors
                              Integrum Technologies


                              On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:



                              -- 
                              Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                              blog:          http://scrum-breakfast.com
                              




                              -- 
                              Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                              blog:          http://scrum-breakfast.com
                              


                            • Kurt Häusler
                              Yeah the ideas themselves are great. Delivering them to (non software development) management in a bucket with Agile Software Development written on the side
                              Message 14 of 21 , Apr 18, 2012
                                Yeah the ideas themselves are great. Delivering them to (non software
                                development) management in a bucket with "Agile Software Development"
                                written on the side is confusing though. They can't be blamed for
                                thinking the message is not for them.

                                On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:49 PM, srinivas chillara <ceezone@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Well, I can see Kurt's point as well. And I don't think he's saying "total
                                > nonsense" (I certainly am, not)
                                > Basically not everything we as a community bring are new ideas(to the
                                > evolved managers outside IT), but some of then are; and we as a community
                                > have bringing a certain combination(s) of ideas. So we should reach out to
                                > beyond IT;
                                > Cross-pollination, anyone!
                                >
                                > cheers
                                > Srinivas
                                > ceezone.wordpress.com
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: Peter Stevens <peterstev@...>
                                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 6:10 PM
                                >
                                > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning
                                >
                                >
                                > This was great! Two responses - one says right on, the other says total
                                > nonsense! Cool.
                                >
                                > On 18.04.12 08:04, srinivas chillara wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Well said Peter! Though I must point out that this sentence on it's own,
                                > prima facie, is a bit confusing:
                                > "Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile
                                > values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy."
                                > How modern is "modern management"!?! It seems medieval.  How times have
                                > changed and how much more they should?
                                >
                                > cheers
                                > Srinivas
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: Peter Stevens <peterstev@...>
                                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 4:47 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi Derek,
                                >
                                > I don't think the manifesto is flawed, not at all: in 73 words it defined
                                > a movement and an identity that unites people today, and its influence
                                > extends even beyond software.
                                >
                                > Nor do I don't think this is about shoving anything down anybody's throat.
                                > I do believe the agile mindset should become the standard way of thinking,
                                > even at the top levels of a large organization. This change is necessary
                                > because classically managed companies are suffering and dying.
                                >
                                > How many agile transitions have been initiated at the middle management
                                > level, only to encounter apathy, resistance or worse from levels above or
                                > departments on either side of the teams making the transition? How many
                                > successful transitions have eventually wilted in the face of apathy or
                                > resistance from the rest of the organization? This fate is shared by
                                > virtually all creative initiatives in the face of command-and-control
                                > management. For agile development to thrive, the rest of the organization
                                > must be agile as well.
                                >
                                > Modern management was invented by Taylor, Ford and Sloan and hasn't really
                                > changed much since the 1950's. Manage the company by managing the financial
                                > results, directive command-and-control to get people to show up and do their
                                > work, and focus on utilization, output and efficiency: all these are were
                                > developed to mass produce cars and were largely adopted by large
                                > organizations throughout the world.
                                >
                                > Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile
                                > values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy. The results
                                > show that profitability is stagnating (or worse) and even top companies are
                                > folding faster than ever before. A change is necessary.
                                >
                                > Agile is the vanguard of a general change in management, beyond "just"
                                > software. At the moment, it is seldom on the radar screens of today's MBA
                                > trained managers.
                                >
                                > The purpose of Stoos (which Steve Denning and I participated in) is to
                                > build that bridge from Agile to general management. A big A-ha moment for
                                > one of the MBA professors at the Stoos Gathering was 'look at all this
                                > wonderful literature, arguing for and reporting on what I have been trying
                                > to get people to do for years - how come I've never heard of any of it?!'
                                >
                                > Best,
                                >
                                > Peter
                                >
                                > On 17.04.12 21:44, Derek Neighbors wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > #2, #4 & #6 seem to have some merit.
                                >
                                > #2 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to see a culture change then
                                > Agile probably is a bad decision.
                                > #4 - We have to stop propagating the confirmation biased bullshit that
                                > because person X is doing Agile well that distributed teams are "good
                                > enough".  Yes you can do Agile in a distributed environment.  Just because
                                > you can do something doesn't mean you should.
                                > #6 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to move from individual to team
                                > concept Agile is probably a bad idea.
                                >
                                > So why these 3 objections might not be a knock against Agile, if a C Level
                                > executive knows they are not willing to make change then perhaps they are
                                > not ready for Agile yet.  That is not to say that Agile wouldn't help their
                                > company, but ultimately they are not ready.
                                >
                                > Why do we have this predisposition to shove Agile down peoples throats
                                > kicking and screaming?  There are plenty of organizations out there they are
                                > ready and willing.
                                >
                                > I think that executives don't get Agile because the manifesto itself is
                                > flawed.  It is focused solely on the team and talks only about software.  If
                                > it was updated to discuss the organization and talk about delivery of
                                > product (not just software) then perhaps larger organizations management
                                > could see it as something other than a stick to fix their broken software
                                > teams.
                                >
                                > Derek Neighbors
                                > Integrum Technologies
                                >
                                >
                                > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                                > <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Are any of you following Denning's recent articles on Forbes?  He is
                                > "killing it" for Agile.
                                >
                                > I especially like the bottom link...
                                >
                                >
                                > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/04/29/scrum-is-a-major-management-discovery/
                                >
                                > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/04/09/the-best-kept-management-secret-on-the-planet-agile/
                                >
                                > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/04/11/why-cant-the-c-suite-grasp-agile-management/
                                >
                                > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/04/17/the-case-against-agile-ten-perennial-management-objections/
                                >
                                > Anyone have opinions on Steve's work?  I'm not familiar with it other than
                                > passing references to his book.
                                >
                                > -------
                                > Charles Bradley
                                > http://www.ScrumCrazy.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --
                                > Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                                > blog: http://scrum-breakfast.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --
                                > Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                                > blog: http://scrum-breakfast.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Kurt Häusler
                                Heh I was just thinking, maybe the label on the bucket should be Postmodern Management or something. I googled it, and yes the term has been used. Didn t
                                Message 15 of 21 , Apr 18, 2012
                                  Heh I was just thinking, maybe the label on the bucket should be
                                  "Postmodern Management" or something. I googled it, and yes the term
                                  has been used. Didn't read the details though.

                                  I like the term "avant-garde management" though.

                                  On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:52 PM, srinivas chillara <ceezone@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Modern, but not quite "avant garde", aye!?!
                                  >
                                  > cheers
                                  > Srinivas
                                  > ceezone.wordpress.com
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: Peter Stevens <peterstev@...>
                                  > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 6:16 PM
                                  >
                                  > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "Modern" management is the decentralized organization.
                                  >
                                  > Taylor invented empiricism
                                  > Ford invented mass production
                                  > Sloan invented the decentralized organization (manage an enterprise by the
                                  > financial results of its subsidiaries).
                                  >
                                  > And yes, many organizations do resemble feudal hierarchies.
                                  > Modern management made the 20th century possible, but the vision of the
                                  > machine as model people should emulate has faded. We are not machines and
                                  > neither are corporations (although you will find people who argue that a
                                  > corporation is/should be a machine).
                                  > Today it looks like a network model is a more accurate model of an
                                  > organization, both internally and in its environment. So management needs to
                                  > change accordingly.
                                  > Best,
                                  > Peter
                                  >
                                  > On 18.04.12 08:04, srinivas chillara wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Well said Peter! Though I must point out that this sentence on it's own,
                                  > prima facie, is a bit confusing:
                                  > "Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile
                                  > values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy."
                                  > How modern is "modern management"!?! It seems medieval.  How times have
                                  > changed and how much more they should?
                                  >
                                  > cheers
                                  > Srinivas
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: Peter Stevens <peterstev@...>
                                  > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 4:47 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi Derek,
                                  >
                                  > I don't think the manifesto is flawed, not at all: in 73 words it defined
                                  > a movement and an identity that unites people today, and its influence
                                  > extends even beyond software.
                                  >
                                  > Nor do I don't think this is about shoving anything down anybody's throat.
                                  > I do believe the agile mindset should become the standard way of thinking,
                                  > even at the top levels of a large organization. This change is necessary
                                  > because classically managed companies are suffering and dying.
                                  >
                                  > How many agile transitions have been initiated at the middle management
                                  > level, only to encounter apathy, resistance or worse from levels above or
                                  > departments on either side of the teams making the transition? How many
                                  > successful transitions have eventually wilted in the face of apathy or
                                  > resistance from the rest of the organization? This fate is shared by
                                  > virtually all creative initiatives in the face of command-and-control
                                  > management. For agile development to thrive, the rest of the organization
                                  > must be agile as well.
                                  >
                                  > Modern management was invented by Taylor, Ford and Sloan and hasn't really
                                  > changed much since the 1950's. Manage the company by managing the financial
                                  > results, directive command-and-control to get people to show up and do their
                                  > work, and focus on utilization, output and efficiency: all these are were
                                  > developed to mass produce cars and were largely adopted by large
                                  > organizations throughout the world.
                                  >
                                  > Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile
                                  > values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy. The results
                                  > show that profitability is stagnating (or worse) and even top companies are
                                  > folding faster than ever before. A change is necessary.
                                  >
                                  > Agile is the vanguard of a general change in management, beyond "just"
                                  > software. At the moment, it is seldom on the radar screens of today's MBA
                                  > trained managers.
                                  >
                                  > The purpose of Stoos (which Steve Denning and I participated in) is to
                                  > build that bridge from Agile to general management. A big A-ha moment for
                                  > one of the MBA professors at the Stoos Gathering was 'look at all this
                                  > wonderful literature, arguing for and reporting on what I have been trying
                                  > to get people to do for years - how come I've never heard of any of it?!'
                                  >
                                  > Best,
                                  >
                                  > Peter
                                  >
                                  > On 17.04.12 21:44, Derek Neighbors wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > #2, #4 & #6 seem to have some merit.
                                  >
                                  > #2 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to see a culture change then
                                  > Agile probably is a bad decision.
                                  > #4 - We have to stop propagating the confirmation biased bullshit that
                                  > because person X is doing Agile well that distributed teams are "good
                                  > enough".  Yes you can do Agile in a distributed environment.  Just because
                                  > you can do something doesn't mean you should.
                                  > #6 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to move from individual to team
                                  > concept Agile is probably a bad idea.
                                  >
                                  > So why these 3 objections might not be a knock against Agile, if a C Level
                                  > executive knows they are not willing to make change then perhaps they are
                                  > not ready for Agile yet.  That is not to say that Agile wouldn't help their
                                  > company, but ultimately they are not ready.
                                  >
                                  > Why do we have this predisposition to shove Agile down peoples throats
                                  > kicking and screaming?  There are plenty of organizations out there they are
                                  > ready and willing.
                                  >
                                  > I think that executives don't get Agile because the manifesto itself is
                                  > flawed.  It is focused solely on the team and talks only about software.  If
                                  > it was updated to discuss the organization and talk about delivery of
                                  > product (not just software) then perhaps larger organizations management
                                  > could see it as something other than a stick to fix their broken software
                                  > teams.
                                  >
                                  > Derek Neighbors
                                  > Integrum Technologies
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                                  > <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Are any of you following Denning's recent articles on Forbes?  He is
                                  > "killing it" for Agile.
                                  >
                                  > I especially like the bottom link...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/04/29/scrum-is-a-major-management-discovery/
                                  >
                                  > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/04/09/the-best-kept-management-secret-on-the-planet-agile/
                                  >
                                  > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/04/11/why-cant-the-c-suite-grasp-agile-management/
                                  >
                                  > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/04/17/the-case-against-agile-ten-perennial-management-objections/
                                  >
                                  > Anyone have opinions on Steve's work?  I'm not familiar with it other than
                                  > passing references to his book.
                                  >
                                  > -------
                                  > Charles Bradley
                                  > http://www.ScrumCrazy.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                                  > blog: http://scrum-breakfast.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                                  > blog: http://scrum-breakfast.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • srinivas chillara
                                  Thanks Kurt; However I remember this www.processimpact.com/articles/no_new_models.pdf A bit funny, since Wiegers was possibly mistaken, we did need Scrum and
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Apr 18, 2012
                                    Thanks Kurt;
                                    However I remember this www.processimpact.com/articles/no_new_models.pdf


                                    A bit funny, sinceWiegers was possibly mistaken, we did need Scrum and kanban.

                                    cheers
                                    Srinivas
                                    ceezone.wordpress.com



                                    From: Kurt Häusler <kurt.haeusler@...>
                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 6:27 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning

                                     
                                    Heh I was just thinking, maybe the label on the bucket should be
                                    "Postmodern Management" or something. I googled it, and yes the term
                                    has been used. Didn't read the details though.

                                    I like the term "avant-garde management" though.

                                    On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:52 PM, srinivas chillara <ceezone@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Modern, but not quite "avant garde", aye!?!
                                    >
                                    > cheers
                                    > Srinivas
                                    > ceezone.wordpress.com
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: Peter Stevens <peterstev@...>
                                    > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 6:16 PM
                                    >
                                    > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > "Modern" management is the decentralized organization.
                                    >
                                    > Taylor invented empiricism
                                    > Ford invented mass production
                                    > Sloan invented the decentralized organization (manage an enterprise by the
                                    > financial results of its subsidiaries).
                                    >
                                    > And yes, many organizations do resemble feudal hierarchies.
                                    > Modern management made the 20th century possible, but the vision of the
                                    > machine as model people should emulate has faded. We are not machines and
                                    > neither are corporations (although you will find people who argue that a
                                    > corporation is/should be a machine).
                                    > Today it looks like a network model is a more accurate model of an
                                    > organization, both internally and in its environment. So management needs to
                                    > change accordingly.
                                    > Best,
                                    > Peter
                                    >
                                    > On 18.04.12 08:04, srinivas chillara wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Well said Peter! Though I must point out that this sentence on it's own,
                                    > prima facie, is a bit confusing:
                                    > "Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile
                                    > values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy."
                                    > How modern is "modern management"!?! It seems medieval.  How times have
                                    > changed and how much more they should?
                                    >
                                    > cheers
                                    > Srinivas
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: Peter Stevens <peterstev@...>
                                    > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 4:47 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Derek,
                                    >
                                    > I don't think the manifesto is flawed, not at all: in 73 words it defined
                                    > a movement and an identity that unites people today, and its influence
                                    > extends even beyond software.
                                    >
                                    > Nor do I don't think this is about shoving anything down anybody's throat.
                                    > I do believe the agile mindset should become the standard way of thinking,
                                    > even at the top levels of a large organization. This change is necessary
                                    > because classically managed companies are suffering and dying.
                                    >
                                    > How many agile transitions have been initiated at the middle management
                                    > level, only to encounter apathy, resistance or worse from levels above or
                                    > departments on either side of the teams making the transition? How many
                                    > successful transitions have eventually wilted in the face of apathy or
                                    > resistance from the rest of the organization? This fate is shared by
                                    > virtually all creative initiatives in the face of command-and-control
                                    > management. For agile development to thrive, the rest of the organization
                                    > must be agile as well.
                                    >
                                    > Modern management was invented by Taylor, Ford and Sloan and hasn't really
                                    > changed much since the 1950's. Manage the company by managing the financial
                                    > results, directive command-and-control to get people to show up and do their
                                    > work, and focus on utilization, output and efficiency: all these are were
                                    > developed to mass produce cars and were largely adopted by large
                                    > organizations throughout the world.
                                    >
                                    > Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile
                                    > values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy. The results
                                    > show that profitability is stagnating (or worse) and even top companies are
                                    > folding faster than ever before. A change is necessary.
                                    >
                                    > Agile is the vanguard of a general change in management, beyond "just"
                                    > software. At the moment, it is seldom on the radar screens of today's MBA
                                    > trained managers.
                                    >
                                    > The purpose of Stoos (which Steve Denning and I participated in) is to
                                    > build that bridge from Agile to general management. A big A-ha moment for
                                    > one of the MBA professors at the Stoos Gathering was 'look at all this
                                    > wonderful literature, arguing for and reporting on what I have been trying
                                    > to get people to do for years - how come I've never heard of any of it?!'
                                    >
                                    > Best,
                                    >
                                    > Peter
                                    >
                                    > On 17.04.12 21:44, Derek Neighbors wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > #2, #4 & #6 seem to have some merit.
                                    >
                                    > #2 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to see a culture change then
                                    > Agile probably is a bad decision.
                                    > #4 - We have to stop propagating the confirmation biased bullshit that
                                    > because person X is doing Agile well that distributed teams are "good
                                    > enough".  Yes you can do Agile in a distributed environment.  Just because
                                    > you can do something doesn't mean you should.
                                    > #6 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to move from individual to team
                                    > concept Agile is probably a bad idea.
                                    >
                                    > So why these 3 objections might not be a knock against Agile, if a C Level
                                    > executive knows they are not willing to make change then perhaps they are
                                    > not ready for Agile yet.  That is not to say that Agile wouldn't help their
                                    > company, but ultimately they are not ready.
                                    >
                                    > Why do we have this predisposition to shove Agile down peoples throats
                                    > kicking and screaming?  There are plenty of organizations out there they are
                                    > ready and willing.
                                    >
                                    > I think that executives don't get Agile because the manifesto itself is
                                    > flawed.  It is focused solely on the team and talks only about software.  If
                                    > it was updated to discuss the organization and talk about delivery of
                                    > product (not just software) then perhaps larger organizations management
                                    > could see it as something other than a stick to fix their broken software
                                    > teams.
                                    >
                                    > Derek Neighbors
                                    > Integrum Technologies
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                                    > <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Are any of you following Denning's recent articles on Forbes?  He is
                                    > "killing it" for Agile.
                                    >
                                    > I especially like the bottom link...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/04/29/scrum-is-a-major-management-discovery/
                                    >
                                    > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/04/09/the-best-kept-management-secret-on-the-planet-agile/
                                    >
                                    > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/04/11/why-cant-the-c-suite-grasp-agile-management/
                                    >
                                    > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/04/17/the-case-against-agile-ten-perennial-management-objections/
                                    >
                                    > Anyone have opinions on Steve's work?  I'm not familiar with it other than
                                    > passing references to his book.
                                    >
                                    > -------
                                    > Charles Bradley
                                    > http://www.ScrumCrazy.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                                    > blog: http://scrum-breakfast.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                                    > blog: http://scrum-breakfast.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                  • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                                    Wieger was greatly mistaken. (Just heavily skimmed the paper) I don t really know how much more command and control you can get than No New models.   IMO,
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Apr 18, 2012
                                      Wieger was greatly mistaken. (Just heavily skimmed the paper)

                                      I don't really know how much more command and control you can get than "No New models."
                                       
                                      IMO, what Wieger failed to understand is that, in the modern world, good models need more than credibility to thrive.  They also need:
                                      a) to continually evolve, and
                                      b) they need shepherds and evangelists.

                                      If you don't have a and b, the model will either die or be relegated to small niche(or historical) status. 

                                      As I write this, it scares me a little that I can replace the word "models" with "religions" and my statement still seems to work.  I can also just replace "models" with "ideas"(or cars, or people) I guess.  I'm scaring myself.  :-)

                                      -------
                                      Charles Bradley
                                      http://www.ScrumCrazy.com




                                      From: srinivas chillara <ceezone@...>
                                      To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 7:15 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning



                                      Thanks Kurt;
                                      However I remember this www.processimpact.com/articles/no_new_models.pdf


                                      A bit funny, sinceWiegers was possibly mistaken, we did need Scrum and kanban.

                                      cheers
                                      Srinivas
                                      ceezone.wordpress.com



                                      From: Kurt Häusler <kurt.haeusler@...>
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 6:27 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning

                                       
                                      Heh I was just thinking, maybe the label on the bucket should be
                                      "Postmodern Management" or something. I googled it, and yes the term
                                      has been used. Didn't read the details though.

                                      I like the term "avant-garde management" though.

                                      On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:52 PM, srinivas chillara <ceezone@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Modern, but not quite "avant garde", aye!?!
                                      >
                                      > cheers
                                      > Srinivas
                                      > ceezone.wordpress.com
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > From: Peter Stevens <peterstev@...>
                                      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 6:16 PM
                                      >
                                      > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > "Modern" management is the decentralized organization.
                                      >
                                      > Taylor invented empiricism
                                      > Ford invented mass production
                                      > Sloan invented the decentralized organization (manage an enterprise by the
                                      > financial results of its subsidiaries).
                                      >
                                      > And yes, many organizations do resemble feudal hierarchies.
                                      > Modern management made the 20th century possible, but the vision of the
                                      > machine as model people should emulate has faded. We are not machines and
                                      > neither are corporations (although you will find people who argue that a
                                      > corporation is/should be a machine).
                                      > Today it looks like a network model is a more accurate model of an
                                      > organization, both internally and in its environment. So management needs to
                                      > change accordingly.
                                      > Best,
                                      > Peter
                                      >
                                      > On 18.04.12 08:04, srinivas chillara wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Well said Peter! Though I must point out that this sentence on it's own,
                                      > prima facie, is a bit confusing:
                                      > "Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile
                                      > values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy."
                                      > How modern is "modern management"!?! It seems medieval.  How times have
                                      > changed and how much more they should?
                                      >
                                      > cheers
                                      > Srinivas
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > From: Peter Stevens <peterstev@...>
                                      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2012 4:47 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Steve Denning
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hi Derek,
                                      >
                                      > I don't think the manifesto is flawed, not at all: in 73 words it defined
                                      > a movement and an identity that unites people today, and its influence
                                      > extends even beyond software.
                                      >
                                      > Nor do I don't think this is about shoving anything down anybody's throat.
                                      > I do believe the agile mindset should become the standard way of thinking,
                                      > even at the top levels of a large organization. This change is necessary
                                      > because classically managed companies are suffering and dying.
                                      >
                                      > How many agile transitions have been initiated at the middle management
                                      > level, only to encounter apathy, resistance or worse from levels above or
                                      > departments on either side of the teams making the transition? How many
                                      > successful transitions have eventually wilted in the face of apathy or
                                      > resistance from the rest of the organization? This fate is shared by
                                      > virtually all creative initiatives in the face of command-and-control
                                      > management. For agile development to thrive, the rest of the organization
                                      > must be agile as well.
                                      >
                                      > Modern management was invented by Taylor, Ford and Sloan and hasn't really
                                      > changed much since the 1950's. Manage the company by managing the financial
                                      > results, directive command-and-control to get people to show up and do their
                                      > work, and focus on utilization, output and efficiency: all these are were
                                      > developed to mass produce cars and were largely adopted by large
                                      > organizations throughout the world.
                                      >
                                      > Not only is the foundation of modern management incompatible with Agile
                                      > values, it doesn't work very well in today's creative economy. The results
                                      > show that profitability is stagnating (or worse) and even top companies are
                                      > folding faster than ever before. A change is necessary.
                                      >
                                      > Agile is the vanguard of a general change in management, beyond "just"
                                      > software. At the moment, it is seldom on the radar screens of today's MBA
                                      > trained managers.
                                      >
                                      > The purpose of Stoos (which Steve Denning and I participated in) is to
                                      > build that bridge from Agile to general management. A big A-ha moment for
                                      > one of the MBA professors at the Stoos Gathering was 'look at all this
                                      > wonderful literature, arguing for and reporting on what I have been trying
                                      > to get people to do for years - how come I've never heard of any of it?!'
                                      >
                                      > Best,
                                      >
                                      > Peter
                                      >
                                      > On 17.04.12 21:44, Derek Neighbors wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > #2, #4 & #6 seem to have some merit.
                                      >
                                      > #2 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to see a culture change then
                                      > Agile probably is a bad decision.
                                      > #4 - We have to stop propagating the confirmation biased bullshit that
                                      > because person X is doing Agile well that distributed teams are "good
                                      > enough".  Yes you can do Agile in a distributed environment.  Just because
                                      > you can do something doesn't mean you should.
                                      > #6 - If a C Level executive isn't willing to move from individual to team
                                      > concept Agile is probably a bad idea.
                                      >
                                      > So why these 3 objections might not be a knock against Agile, if a C Level
                                      > executive knows they are not willing to make change then perhaps they are
                                      > not ready for Agile yet.  That is not to say that Agile wouldn't help their
                                      > company, but ultimately they are not ready.
                                      >
                                      > Why do we have this predisposition to shove Agile down peoples throats
                                      > kicking and screaming?  There are plenty of organizations out there they are
                                      > ready and willing.
                                      >
                                      > I think that executives don't get Agile because the manifesto itself is
                                      > flawed.  It is focused solely on the team and talks only about software.  If
                                      > it was updated to discuss the organization and talk about delivery of
                                      > product (not just software) then perhaps larger organizations management
                                      > could see it as something other than a stick to fix their broken software
                                      > teams.
                                      >
                                      > Derek Neighbors
                                      > Integrum Technologies
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                                      > <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Are any of you following Denning's recent articles on Forbes?  He is
                                      > "killing it" for Agile.
                                      >
                                      > I especially like the bottom link...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/04/29/scrum-is-a-major-management-discovery/
                                      >
                                      > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/04/09/the-best-kept-management-secret-on-the-planet-agile/
                                      >
                                      > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/04/11/why-cant-the-c-suite-grasp-agile-management/
                                      >
                                      > http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/04/17/the-case-against-agile-ten-perennial-management-objections/
                                      >
                                      > Anyone have opinions on Steve's work?  I'm not familiar with it other than
                                      > passing references to his book.
                                      >
                                      > -------
                                      > Charles Bradley
                                      > http://www.ScrumCrazy.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                                      > blog: http://scrum-breakfast.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                                      > blog: http://scrum-breakfast.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >






                                    • Steve
                                      Ron and Steve - Thanks for that insight. Steve; apologies for not dialling in; your post got to me after the time. But the problem remains; if you quoute or
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Apr 19, 2012
                                        Ron and Steve - Thanks for that insight.

                                        Steve; apologies for not dialling in; your post got to me after the time.

                                        But the 'problem' remains; if you quoute or direct many senior business execs to the Manifesto, they see 'software' and do not believe that the concepts can apply to business in general.

                                        I understand the desire to keep the Manifesto as is for historical reasons but is there not a need for some sort of updated version (relly liked Kent's 'update' concepts although still software centric - thanks for the link Steve).

                                        If there is a need, then the Agile Alliance would be the obvious 'authority' to 'own' it.

                                        Thoughts?
                                      • woynam
                                        How about simply creating a new Agile Management Manifesto? We ll pick a nice little spot to get together for drinks and discussion, and them publish the
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Apr 19, 2012
                                          How about simply creating a new Agile Management Manifesto?

                                          We'll pick a nice little spot to get together for drinks and discussion, and them publish the paper.

                                          Tahiti anyone?

                                          Mark

                                          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <steve@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Ron and Steve - Thanks for that insight.
                                          >
                                          > Steve; apologies for not dialling in; your post got to me after the time.
                                          >
                                          > But the 'problem' remains; if you quoute or direct many senior business execs to the Manifesto, they see 'software' and do not believe that the concepts can apply to business in general.
                                          >
                                          > I understand the desire to keep the Manifesto as is for historical reasons but is there not a need for some sort of updated version (relly liked Kent's 'update' concepts although still software centric - thanks for the link Steve).
                                          >
                                          > If there is a need, then the Agile Alliance would be the obvious 'authority' to 'own' it.
                                          >
                                          > Thoughts?
                                          >
                                        • Steve
                                          ... I m in - do you think the Agile Alliance will subsidise the fares ;^)
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Apr 19, 2012
                                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "woynam" <woyna@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > How about simply creating a new Agile Management Manifesto?
                                            >
                                            > We'll pick a nice little spot to get together for drinks and discussion, and them publish the paper.
                                            >
                                            > Tahiti anyone?

                                            I'm in - do you think the Agile Alliance will subsidise the fares ;^)
                                          • Peter Stevens
                                            Hi Kurt, (Apologies if I overstated your reaction - you started with No. and Srinivas started with Well said Peter - This super contrast left me with a big
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Apr 19, 2012
                                              Hi Kurt,

                                              (Apologies if I overstated your reaction - you started with "No." and Srinivas started with "Well said Peter" - This super contrast left me with a big :-D )

                                              I really do believe agile is on the vanguard of a transformation of management.

                                              There are two levels to Agile - one is about engineering practices, the other is about values. Let's leave the engineering practices aside for a moment. I agree with you, that is about software and not easily applicable outside of software. In this context I am referring to Agile as a management framework.

                                              What management principles does Agile implement? Servant leadership, delegation, intrinsic motivation, high trust cultures, PDCA, and much more. These are all things that one (should) routinely encounter in an Agile project and exactly what the management gurus have been saying we should do. It is not that Agile invented these things, but Agile is where these things are being systematically applied, where there is a large body of knowledge on how to do it, and where there is a lot of experience on what happens when you do it. AFAIK this is only community where these principles are systematically applied. All this has happened under the noses of and often in the face of resistance from classical management. Steve Denning documented this thoroughly in his recent post. If you read a text book on management, you don't learn about agile, or scrum, or kanban. Maybe a little bit about lean. This has to change.

                                              So yes Agile is on the vanguard. Not by talking or teaching at prestigious business schools, but by actually doing all the things management gurus have been saying managers should do for the last 50 years. Rod Collins, former CEO of Blue Cross Federal Employees Division and author of Leadership in a Wiki World believes the next generation of top managers will come from the agile ranks, simply because these are the people who 'get it':
                                              • Agile, Lean, Scrum, Kanban - all are examples effective approaches to organization in a complex, networked world. None of them are compatible with the hierarchical, command-and-control management approach that was perfected by General Motors in the 20's. More fundamentally, thinking is not compatible with following orders.
                                              • Beyond Budgeting - rethinking finances as the guiding instrument of corporate planning and control. BTW Professor Franz Röösli, Chair of the BB Roundtable, was an initiator of the Stoos Gathering.
                                              • Radical Management - a rethinking of management based on agile principles. Strongly influenced by Scrum, The Ultimate Question (delighting the customer as the ultimate goal of an organization), and the Innovators Dilemma (why established companies often fail to respond to disruptive innovations). RM adds storytelling as a change leadership tool (which, when I started employing it, has done wonders for the acceptance of Scrum in the agile transitions I have coached).
                                              • Stoos - a movement to catalyze a widespread change in management by building a common identity and networking between compatible approaches. People who identify themselves with Agile, Scrum, Kanban, Radical Management, Beyond Budgeting and others were all present at the first Stoos gathering.
                                              Where do we go from here? A number of Stoos events are planned, most notably the Stoos Stampede and the StoosXchange. A number of Stoos Satellites have formed around the world to build local communities. Having said this, most of the resonance is coming from the Agile community. Franz Röösli and I will attend Gary Hamel's MIX Mashup. Our hope is to get agile on managements radar screen.

                                              If you're not already a member, I'd encourage you to join the Stoos network to keep abreast of what is happening.

                                              Best,

                                              Peter










                                              On 18.04.12 07:58, Kurt Häusler wrote:  

                                              On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Peter Stevens <peterstev@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Agile is the vanguard of a general change in management, beyond "just" software. At the moment, it is seldom on the radar screens of today's MBA trained managers.

                                              No. People like Deming, Goldratt, Ohno, (and several others that I am
                                              not yet that familiar with) are the vanguards of general change in
                                              management (to the extent that there is yet much of a change), perhaps
                                              being joined by some more recent ideas like rightshifting, beyong
                                              budgeting, radical management, the "Stoos" movement etc . Agile is
                                              just a realization of that change in the world of software.

                                              I don't have an MBA, but I recently finished a post-graduate
                                              management degree, and while Agile is great for developing and
                                              delivering software, its nothing that anyone outside of software
                                              development needs to be interested in. Agile should only be discussed
                                              in relation to software development. However we certainly did pay
                                              attention to agile-like ideas that are useful outside software
                                              development, like systems and complexity thinking, servant leadership,
                                              intrinsic motivation, Deming, TOC, the TPS, high trust cultures etc.

                                              I wish people would stop trying to push Agile software development
                                              down managers throats as if were somehow a better basis for an
                                              organisational value system than all those good things that aren't so
                                              software specific. It just makes the whole thing more confusing and
                                              difficult.

                                              Why push rocks uphill, and try and convince managers that Agile
                                              software development is somehow the right thing to base their whole
                                              organisation on? Why not just show them e.g. Deming's System of
                                              Profound Knowledge, or explain servant leadership or systems thinking
                                              instead?



                                              -- 
                                              Peter Stevens, Scrum Trainer & Coach
                                              blog:          http://scrum-breakfast.com
                                              
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