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Boy Scout Rule

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  • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
    I ve heard people say that the boy scout rule was essentially this: 1.  Leave the campground as good or better than you found it and I ve also heard them
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 13, 2012
      I've heard people say that the boy scout rule was essentially this:
      1.  "Leave the campground as good or better than you found it"
      and I've also heard them say
      2.  "Leave the campground better than you found it"

      I tried searching the interwebs for the real Boy Scout Rule and had no luck.  I found a whole lot about "Leave No Trace"... but that seems different to me and not on point.

      Anyone know if the original reference to the Boy Scout Rule (in the Boy Scouts, not in software dev) is more like #1 or more like #2?
       
      -------
      Charles Bradley
      http://www.ScrumCrazy.com


    • RonJeffries
      Hi Charles, ... Why ruin a good story by insisting on the truth? Number 2 is the better advice. :) Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com I m really pissed off by
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 13, 2012
        Hi Charles,

        On Apr 13, 2012, at 8:30 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I wrote:

        Anyone know if the original reference to the Boy Scout Rule (in the Boy Scouts, not in software dev) is more like #1 or more like #2?

        Why ruin a good story by insisting on the truth? Number 2 is the better advice. :)

        Ron Jeffries
        I'm really pissed off by what people are passing off as "agile" these days.
        You may have a red car, but that does not make it a Ferrari.
          -- Steve Hayes

      • Adam Sroka
        I remember the rule from when I was in the Boy Scouts in the mid-80s. I don t remember what we called it (I m pretty sure it wasn t The Boy Scout Rule, ) but
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 13, 2012
          I remember the rule from when I was in the Boy Scouts in the mid-80s. I don't remember what we called it (I'm pretty sure it wasn't "The Boy Scout Rule,") but I do remember it coming up every time we were packing up. 

          We were also a troop on a military base where some of our fathers had all kinds of different experience. So, I wasn't always sure which ideas were purely Boy Scout ideas, aside from what was in the book. We got exposed to all kinds of stuff, but always in a really safe way. 

          But I do remember "leave the camp grounds cleaner than you found them" or something very close to that exact wording being promoted as a sort of a motto. It was 25 years ago give or take so some of the details are fuzzy. 

          On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
           

          I've heard people say that the boy scout rule was essentially this:
          1.  "Leave the campground as good or better than you found it"
          and I've also heard them say
          2.  "Leave the campground better than you found it"

          I tried searching the interwebs for the real Boy Scout Rule and had no luck.  I found a whole lot about "Leave No Trace"... but that seems different to me and not on point.

          Anyone know if the original reference to the Boy Scout Rule (in the Boy Scouts, not in software dev) is more like #1 or more like #2?
           
          -------
          Charles Bradley
          http://www.ScrumCrazy.com



        • Sean Corfield
          On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM ... It seems the scouts have adopted the larger Leave No Trace movement:
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 13, 2012
            On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM
            I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
            >
            > I tried searching the interwebs for the real Boy Scout Rule and had no luck.  I found a whole lot about "Leave No Trace"... but that seems different to me and not on point.

            It seems the scouts have adopted the larger Leave No Trace movement:
            http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/resources/LeavenoTrace.aspx
            --
            Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
            An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
            World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/

            "Perfection is the enemy of the good."
            -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)
          • Edson Chavez
            Hi, the real quote is : Try and leave this world a little better than you found it. is part of the last message of Baden Powell founded the Scout movement.
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 13, 2012
              Hi, the real quote is : 

              "Try and leave this world a little better than you found it." 

              is part of the last message of Baden Powell founded the Scout movement.



              regards.

              Edson 'Grubhart'
              http://www.sindominio.net/ayuda/preguntas-inteligentes.html
              http://soyfreakytambiengeek.blogspot.com/ <-- Mi Blog ^^
              @Grubhart   <-- Twitter!!


              El 13 de abril de 2012 20:01, Sean Corfield <seancorfield@...> escribió:
               

              On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM
              I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
              >
              > I tried searching the interwebs for the real Boy Scout Rule and had no luck.  I found a whole lot about "Leave No Trace"... but that seems different to me and not on point.

              It seems the scouts have adopted the larger Leave No Trace movement:
              http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/resources/LeavenoTrace.aspx
              --
              Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
              An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
              World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/

              "Perfection is the enemy of the good."
              -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)


            • Dave Smith
              Charles, My scouting days followed the first version. We would spend at least a half hour cleaning up a campsite at the end of a weekend camp out. And there
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 13, 2012
                Charles,

                My scouting days followed the first version. We would spend at least a half hour cleaning up a campsite at the end of a weekend camp out. And there was always stray junk to be picked up.

                I was wondering about this in light of that instruction being picked up and echoed by Agilistas, and asked one of my Scout Master friends. He says that the current dictum is "leave no trace". It seems that people took "as good or better" too literally, and tried to improve upon nature, leaving things too clean.

                The intent "Leave no trace" is to let the next people who come along have a fresh experience with nature. Nature leaves weeds and dead branches. Software, however, is not an artefact of nature. It's more like a kitchen. Therefore, the first version of the rule applies.

                Regards,
                Dave

                On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:


                I've heard people say that the boy scout rule was essentially this:
                1.  "Leave the campground as good or better than you found it"
                and I've also heard them say
                2.  "Leave the campground better than you found it"

                I tried searching the interwebs for the real Boy Scout Rule and had no luck.  I found a whole lot about "Leave No Trace"... but that seems different to me and not on point.

                Anyone know if the original reference to the Boy Scout Rule (in the Boy Scouts, not in software dev) is more like #1 or more like #2?
                 
                -------
                Charles Bradley
                http://www.ScrumCrazy.com





              • Adrian Howard
                Hi Charles, ... Although there are more modern reinterpretations - this is from Bayden Powell s original Scouting for Boys : Cleaning Camp Ground
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 14, 2012
                  Hi Charles,

                  On 14 Apr 2012, at 01:30, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I wrote:

                  > I've heard people say that the boy scout rule was essentially this:
                  > 1. "Leave the campground as good or better than you found it"
                  > and I've also heard them say
                  > 2. "Leave the campground better than you found it"

                  Although there are more modern reinterpretations - this is from Bayden Powell's original "Scouting for Boys":

                  <quote>
                  Cleaning Camp Ground

                  Never forget that the state of an old camp ground, after the camp has finished, tells exactly whether the Patrol or Troop which has used it was a smart one or not. No Scouts who are any good ever leave a camp ground dirty.

                  They sweep up and bury or burn every scrap of rubbish. Farmers then don't have the trouble of having to clean their ground after you leave, and they are, therefore, all the more willing to let you use it again.

                  It is a big disgrace for any Troop or Patrol or lone camper to leave the camp ground dirty and untidy.

                  Remember the only two things you leave behind you on breaking up camp:

                  1. Nothing
                  2. Your thanks to the owner of the ground
                  </quote>

                  Cheers,

                  Adrian
                  --
                  http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
                  t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward del.icio.us/adrianh
                • Douglas D. Lara
                  Hi, this mention was made by Robert Martin in his book Clean Code . One of the best software craftsmanship books out there imo. If you re not a developer, you
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 14, 2012

                    Hi, this mention was made by Robert Martin in his book "Clean Code". One of the best software craftsmanship books out there imo. If you're not a developer, you should encourage every coder you know (not just the ones that work with you) to get a copy!

                    Regards,
                    Douglas.

                    On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Adrian Howard <adrianh@...> wrote:
                     

                    Hi Charles,



                    On 14 Apr 2012, at 01:30, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I wrote:

                    > I've heard people say that the boy scout rule was essentially this:
                    > 1. "Leave the campground as good or better than you found it"
                    > and I've also heard them say
                    > 2. "Leave the campground better than you found it"

                    Although there are more modern reinterpretations - this is from Bayden Powell's original "Scouting for Boys":

                    <quote>
                    Cleaning Camp Ground

                    Never forget that the state of an old camp ground, after the camp has finished, tells exactly whether the Patrol or Troop which has used it was a smart one or not. No Scouts who are any good ever leave a camp ground dirty.

                    They sweep up and bury or burn every scrap of rubbish. Farmers then don't have the trouble of having to clean their ground after you leave, and they are, therefore, all the more willing to let you use it again.

                    It is a big disgrace for any Troop or Patrol or lone camper to leave the camp ground dirty and untidy.

                    Remember the only two things you leave behind you on breaking up camp:

                    1. Nothing
                    2. Your thanks to the owner of the ground
                    </quote>

                    Cheers,

                    Adrian
                    --
                    http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
                    t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward del.icio.us/adrianh




                    --
                    Douglas D. Lara
                    douglas.lara@...
                  • Bret Wortman
                    I was a scout in the 70s and whether it was official or not, I remember being told on many occasions, by my scoutmasters and my parents alike, to always leave
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 16, 2012
                      I was a scout in the 70s and whether it was official or not, I remember being told on many occasions, by my scoutmasters and my parents alike, to always leave a place better than it was when I found it. That applied to campsites, our meeting rooms, my dad's toolbox, the kitchen, our play room, the back yard....

                      Official or not, it's great advice and I've been giving it to my own kids since their birth and have been leaking those words to our teams subtly over the past few years as well. I've started to hear those words being shared amongst the team members without them coming from me now, which is pretty cool. "Hey, man, just leave it better than it was."


                      Bret Wortman



                      On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 7:32 AM, Adrian Howard <adrianh@...> wrote:
                       

                      Hi Charles,



                      On 14 Apr 2012, at 01:30, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I wrote:

                      > I've heard people say that the boy scout rule was essentially this:
                      > 1. "Leave the campground as good or better than you found it"
                      > and I've also heard them say
                      > 2. "Leave the campground better than you found it"

                      Although there are more modern reinterpretations - this is from Bayden Powell's original "Scouting for Boys":

                      <quote>
                      Cleaning Camp Ground

                      Never forget that the state of an old camp ground, after the camp has finished, tells exactly whether the Patrol or Troop which has used it was a smart one or not. No Scouts who are any good ever leave a camp ground dirty.

                      They sweep up and bury or burn every scrap of rubbish. Farmers then don't have the trouble of having to clean their ground after you leave, and they are, therefore, all the more willing to let you use it again.

                      It is a big disgrace for any Troop or Patrol or lone camper to leave the camp ground dirty and untidy.

                      Remember the only two things you leave behind you on breaking up camp:

                      1. Nothing
                      2. Your thanks to the owner of the ground
                      </quote>

                      Cheers,

                      Adrian
                      --
                      http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
                      t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward del.icio.us/adrianh


                    • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                      Ron, ... This from the same guy who doesn t like using the term bug to describe software defects.   ... Charles Bradley http://www.ScrumCrazy.com ... Ron,
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 18, 2012
                        Ron,

                        > Why ruin a good story by insisting on the truth?

                        This from the same guy who doesn't like using the term "bug" to describe software defects.
                         
                        -------
                        Charles Bradley
                        http://www.ScrumCrazy.com




                        From: RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...>
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 6:32 PM
                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Boy Scout Rule



                        Hi Charles,

                        On Apr 13, 2012, at 8:30 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I wrote:

                        Anyone know if the original reference to the Boy Scout Rule (in the Boy Scouts, not in software dev) is more like #1 or more like #2?

                        Why ruin a good story by insisting on the truth? Number 2 is the better advice. :)

                        Ron Jeffries
                        I'm really pissed off by what people are passing off as "agile" these days.
                        You may have a red car, but that does not make it a Ferrari.
                          -- Steve Hayes

                      • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                        P.S.  ;-) (forgot to do that)   ... Charles Bradley http://www.ScrumCrazy.com ... P.S. ;-) (forgot to do that) ------- Charles Bradley
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 18, 2012
                          P.S.  ;-) (forgot to do that)
                           
                          -------
                          Charles Bradley
                          http://www.ScrumCrazy.com




                          From: Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...>
                          To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 10:11 PM
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Boy Scout Rule



                          Ron,

                          > Why ruin a good story by insisting on the truth?

                          This from the same guy who doesn't like using the term "bug" to describe software defects.
                           
                          -------
                          Charles Bradley
                          http://www.ScrumCrazy.com




                          From: RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...>
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 6:32 PM
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Boy Scout Rule



                          Hi Charles,

                          On Apr 13, 2012, at 8:30 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I wrote:

                          Anyone know if the original reference to the Boy Scout Rule (in the Boy Scouts, not in software dev) is more like #1 or more like #2?

                          Why ruin a good story by insisting on the truth? Number 2 is the better advice. :)

                          Ron Jeffries
                          I'm really pissed off by what people are passing off as "agile" these days.
                          You may have a red car, but that does not make it a Ferrari.
                            -- Steve Hayes





                        • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                          Thanks to everyone who took the time and gave very thoughtful replies and memories on this thread.  One of the very few small regrets of my childhood was not
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 18, 2012
                            Thanks to everyone who took the time and gave very thoughtful replies and memories on this thread.  One of the very few small regrets of my childhood was not trying out the scouts.  I intend to try with my son (but, of course, would never push it on him.)

                            I'm going to try to take Ron's advice and not let the truth get in the way of a good story.  I also believe that the "Leave it better" version is more in line with the Boy Scout's mindset, and specifically more in line with the Founder of the Boy Scout's posthumous message to the Scouts.  How did he give a posthumous message, you ask?  Because he learned to "Be Prepared" of course!  Anyway, in it, he says "....Try and leave this world a little better than you found it..." 
                            (bottom of page)

                            What an amazing example of "crowdsourcing," long before crowdsourcing was a cool, hip term. 

                            The "leave it better" version is also in line with the thought leaders in programming, who I guess started the concept in software.

                            I also understand that the "leave it better" version requires some judgement in terms of not letting your "cleanup tasks" explode the time you spend on every normal coding task.
                             
                            -------
                            Charles Bradley
                            http://www.ScrumCrazy.com




                            From: Bret Wortman <bret@...>
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 6:39 AM
                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Boy Scout Rule



                            I was a scout in the 70s and whether it was official or not, I remember being told on many occasions, by my scoutmasters and my parents alike, to always leave a place better than it was when I found it. That applied to campsites, our meeting rooms, my dad's toolbox, the kitchen, our play room, the back yard....

                            Official or not, it's great advice and I've been giving it to my own kids since their birth and have been leaking those words to our teams subtly over the past few years as well. I've started to hear those words being shared amongst the team members without them coming from me now, which is pretty cool. "Hey, man, just leave it better than it was."


                            Bret Wortman



                            On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 7:32 AM, Adrian Howard <adrianh@...> wrote:
                             
                            Hi Charles,


                            On 14 Apr 2012, at 01:30, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I wrote:

                            > I've heard people say that the boy scout rule was essentially this:
                            > 1. "Leave the campground as good or better than you found it"
                            > and I've also heard them say
                            > 2. "Leave the campground better than you found it"

                            Although there are more modern reinterpretations - this is from Bayden Powell's original "Scouting for Boys":

                            <quote>
                            Cleaning Camp Ground

                            Never forget that the state of an old camp ground, after the camp has finished, tells exactly whether the Patrol or Troop which has used it was a smart one or not. No Scouts who are any good ever leave a camp ground dirty.

                            They sweep up and bury or burn every scrap of rubbish. Farmers then don't have the trouble of having to clean their ground after you leave, and they are, therefore, all the more willing to let you use it again.

                            It is a big disgrace for any Troop or Patrol or lone camper to leave the camp ground dirty and untidy.

                            Remember the only two things you leave behind you on breaking up camp:

                            1. Nothing
                            2. Your thanks to the owner of the ground
                            </quote>

                            Cheers,

                            Adrian
                            --
                            http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
                            t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward del.icio.us/adrianh






                          • Steve Ropa
                            Don t forget to follow it up with Clean Coders. The two books together should be required reading for anyone who wants to practice the craft of programming.
                            Message 13 of 13 , May 8 3:16 PM

                              Don’t forget to follow it up with Clean Coders.  The two books together should be required reading for anyone who wants to practice the craft of programming.

                               

                              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Douglas D. Lara
                              Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:48 PM
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Boy Scout Rule

                               

                               

                               

                              Hi, this mention was made by Robert Martin in his book "Clean Code". One of the best software craftsmanship books out there imo. If you're not a developer, you should encourage every coder you know (not just the ones that work with you) to get a copy!

                               

                              Regards,

                              Douglas.

                              On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Adrian Howard <adrianh@...> wrote:

                               

                              Hi Charles,



                              On 14 Apr 2012, at 01:30, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I wrote:

                              > I've heard people say that the boy scout rule was essentially this:
                              > 1. "Leave the campground as good or better than you found it"
                              > and I've also heard them say
                              > 2. "Leave the campground better than you found it"

                              Although there are more modern reinterpretations - this is from Bayden Powell's original "Scouting for Boys":

                              <quote>
                              Cleaning Camp Ground

                              Never forget that the state of an old camp ground, after the camp has finished, tells exactly whether the Patrol or Troop which has used it was a smart one or not. No Scouts who are any good ever leave a camp ground dirty.

                              They sweep up and bury or burn every scrap of rubbish. Farmers then don't have the trouble of having to clean their ground after you leave, and they are, therefore, all the more willing to let you use it again.

                              It is a big disgrace for any Troop or Patrol or lone camper to leave the camp ground dirty and untidy.

                              Remember the only two things you leave behind you on breaking up camp:

                              1. Nothing
                              2. Your thanks to the owner of the ground
                              </quote>

                              Cheers,

                              Adrian
                              --
                              http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
                              t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward del.icio.us/adrianh



                               

                              --
                              Douglas D. Lara
                              douglas.lara@...

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