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Help - looking for recent "metaphor" article

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  • Deb
    I recently saw a blog or article somewhere (???) recently, where someone in this crowd was reflecting on suitable metaphors for what we do. Specifically, I
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 27, 2004
      I recently saw a blog or article somewhere (???) recently, where
      someone in this crowd was reflecting on suitable metaphors for what we
      do. Specifically, I believe it was an alternative to the manufacturing
      metaphor. Might have been following OOPSLA in Vancouver?

      Can anyone suggest what I might be looking for and where I can find
      it? I've searched my blogs and the Agile Alliance library to no avail...

      I think I've reached saturation... or old timers disease is starting :-)
      deb
    • Mike Cohn
      Many metaphors have been proposed. I m not sure which one you re thinking of specificically. My favorite is the one espoused in the book Artful Making that
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 27, 2004
        Many metaphors have been proposed. I'm not sure which one you're thinking of
        specificically. My favorite is the one espoused in the book "Artful Making"
        that relates software development to putting on a Broadway play. It's a
        wonderful book. I remember a Kent Beck presentation that said software is
        like growing plants and Roy Miller has a book to that effect (Growing
        Software)

        Do a google search on "software is like" and you're sure to find that it's
        like just about everything, including:

        A car (and source code is like opening the hood)
        Driving a bus
        Like sex (it's better when it's free)
        Like TiVo
        Like blood

        I think we've been compared to just about everything there is.

        --Mike

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Deb [mailto:deborah@...]
        Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:38 AM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Help - looking for recent "metaphor" article



        I recently saw a blog or article somewhere (???) recently, where
        someone in this crowd was reflecting on suitable metaphors for what we
        do. Specifically, I believe it was an alternative to the manufacturing
        metaphor. Might have been following OOPSLA in Vancouver?

        Can anyone suggest what I might be looking for and where I can find
        it? I've searched my blogs and the Agile Alliance library to no avail...

        I think I've reached saturation... or old timers disease is starting :-)
        deb






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        scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
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      • todd
        I think any thing of any complexity becomes its own metaphor. Saying software is like X doesn t add much light. It reflects more of the story teller than the
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 27, 2004
          I think any thing of any complexity becomes its own metaphor. Saying
          software is like X doesn't add much light. It reflects more of the story
          teller than the story.

          Mike Cohn wrote:

          > Many metaphors have been proposed. I'm not sure which one you're
          > thinking of
          > specificically. My favorite is the one espoused in the book "Artful
          > Making"
          > that relates software development to putting on a Broadway play. It's a
          > wonderful book. I remember a Kent Beck presentation that said software is
          > like growing plants and Roy Miller has a book to that effect (Growing
          > Software)
          >
          > Do a google search on "software is like" and you're sure to find that it's
          > like just about everything, including:
          >
          > A car (and source code is like opening the hood)
          > Driving a bus
          > Like sex (it's better when it's free)
          > Like TiVo
          > Like blood
          >
          > I think we've been compared to just about everything there is.
          >
          > --Mike
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Deb [mailto:deborah@...]
          > Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:38 AM
          > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Help - looking for recent "metaphor" article
          >
          >
          >
          > I recently saw a blog or article somewhere (???) recently, where
          > someone in this crowd was reflecting on suitable metaphors for what we
          > do. Specifically, I believe it was an alternative to the manufacturing
          > metaphor. Might have been following OOPSLA in Vancouver?
          >
          > Can anyone suggest what I might be looking for and where I can find
          > it? I've searched my blogs and the Agile Alliance library to no avail...
          >
          > I think I've reached saturation... or old timers disease is starting :-)
          > deb
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Christian Edward Gruber
          Two things that come to mind, is an article in a recent Economist magazine that discussed metaphor. You ld have to look it up at their site. The other is a
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 27, 2004
            Two things that come to mind, is an article in a recent Economist
            magazine that discussed metaphor. You'ld have to look it up at their
            site. The other is a Kuro5hin.org article called "The Software
            Construction Analogy is Broken"
            [http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/3/13/211831/159%5d, written by a CSM.

            Both of these are more about how the current modes are insufficient or
            wrong, and less on better models. It might be noted that in an
            impirical process, a model or analogy for the process isn't required,
            since you're "discovering" not "defining".

            regards,
            Christian Gruber

            --
            -------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Christian E. Gruber President, Israfil Consulting Services Corp.
            (905) 640-1119 (office) cgruber@...
            (416) 930-6023 (cell) http://www.israfil.net


            Mike Cohn wrote:

            >Many metaphors have been proposed. I'm not sure which one you're thinking of
            >specificically. My favorite is the one espoused in the book "Artful Making"
            >that relates software development to putting on a Broadway play. It's a
            >wonderful book. I remember a Kent Beck presentation that said software is
            >like growing plants and Roy Miller has a book to that effect (Growing
            >Software)
            >
            >Do a google search on "software is like" and you're sure to find that it's
            >like just about everything, including:
            >
            >A car (and source code is like opening the hood)
            >Driving a bus
            >Like sex (it's better when it's free)
            >Like TiVo
            >Like blood
            >
            >I think we've been compared to just about everything there is.
            >
            >--Mike
            >
            >-----Original Message-----
            >From: Deb [mailto:deborah@...]
            >Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:38 AM
            >To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Help - looking for recent "metaphor" article
            >
            >
            >
            >I recently saw a blog or article somewhere (???) recently, where
            >someone in this crowd was reflecting on suitable metaphors for what we
            >do. Specifically, I believe it was an alternative to the manufacturing
            >metaphor. Might have been following OOPSLA in Vancouver?
            >
            >Can anyone suggest what I might be looking for and where I can find
            >it? I've searched my blogs and the Agile Alliance library to no avail...
            >
            >I think I've reached saturation... or old timers disease is starting :-)
            >deb
            >
            >
          • Joseph Pelrine
            ... I beg to disagree. A metaphor is a model whose goal is to provide a simple intuitive mapping of concepts from one domain to another. It seems, though, that
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 29, 2004
              At 20:50 27.11.2004, you wrote:

              >I think any thing of any complexity becomes its own metaphor. Saying
              >software is like X doesn't add much light. It reflects more of the story
              >teller than the story.

              I beg to disagree. A metaphor is a model whose goal is to provide a simple
              intuitive mapping of concepts from one domain to another. It seems, though,
              that the "simple" aspect of metaphor is discomforting to some people. They
              tend to feel that it insults their intelligence to have things defined in
              simple terms. They often need to feel that they themselves, and their
              issues, are special and unique (which they rightly are), and cannot be
              described in simplistic terms. Just as you can add increasingly more detail
              to a map, until it actually becomes the terrain it describes, you can add
              more detail to a metaphor or model. Unfortunately, because the model is
              based on subjective human perception, it doesn't become the terrain itself;
              it becomes (if I may use a metaphor) a parallel, individual universe, often
              existing outside of consensus reality.

              We use metaphors every day - ask any psychologist. Human beings act not on
              the world, but on a model of how they perceive the world to be. Your
              actions towards a person are influenced by your subjective perception of
              their feelings towards you. These actions and reactions oftentimes are not
              rational. In fact, to quote David Snowden, we only think rationally if
              we're autistic. Normally, the human mind uses a subconscious first-fit
              pattern-matching algorithm to choose approriate actions and reactions. One
              aspect of intelligence is our ability to realize this fact, and to be able
              to look beyond the model into the real world. Actions based solely on
              subconscious first-fit pattern-matching often exhibit a behaviour
              incongruent to the issue at hand, and are normally described as being
              neurotic. The motion towards building a parallel, private universe (as
              described above) and basing actions upon it, goes in the direction of
              psychotic and schizophrenic behaviour.

              That being said, metaphor and archetypal narrative have been used for ages
              to pass on wisdom, to allow an egoless expression of pride, or allow a
              confession of failure without an attibution of blame. A classical example
              are the Nasrudin stories of the Sufi culture. A more modern example is
              Dilbert. I've even heard of companies who design their own Dilbert-like
              cartoon characters, let their graphics people draw a few different views of
              them, and then put together their own cartoons describing events that have
              happened.

              just a few cents worth...

              --
              Joseph Pelrine [ | ]
              MetaProg GmbH
              Email: jpelrine@...
              Web: http://www.metaprog.com

              You don't become enormously successful without encountering some really
              interesting problems.
              - Mark Victor Hansen
            • todd
              ... No need to beg. I don t really disagree with much of what you said, yet i have not seen useful broad scale software related metaphors. Perhaps you can
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 29, 2004
                Joseph Pelrine wrote:

                > At 20:50 27.11.2004, you wrote:
                >
                > >I think any thing of any complexity becomes its own metaphor. Saying
                > >software is like X doesn't add much light. It reflects more of the story
                > >teller than the story.
                >
                > I beg to disagree.

                No need to beg. I don't really disagree with much of what you said, yet
                i have not seen
                useful broad scale software related metaphors. Perhaps you can share
                some you like?
              • Joseph Pelrine
                ... Hmmm...I think you ve brought up an interesting point here. Much of the value of metaphor has to do with its simplicity and immediateness. There are
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 30, 2004
                  At 07:47 30.11.2004, you wrote:


                  >Joseph Pelrine wrote:
                  >
                  > > At 20:50 27.11.2004, you wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >I think any thing of any complexity becomes its own metaphor. Saying
                  > > >software is like X doesn't add much light. It reflects more of the story
                  > > >teller than the story.
                  > >
                  > > I beg to disagree.
                  >
                  >No need to beg. I don't really disagree with much of what you said, yet
                  >i have not seen
                  >useful broad scale software related metaphors. Perhaps you can share
                  >some you like?

                  Hmmm...I think you've brought up an interesting point here. Much of the
                  value of metaphor has to do with its' simplicity and immediateness. There
                  are boundary conditions at which not only does a specific metaphor cease
                  working, but also where metaphor as a tool no longer works. I would argue
                  that software is a sufficiently bounded domain, applicable to metaphor, but
                  what about the other side of the metaphor equation? If I apply my own
                  definition of metaphor being a simple intuitive mapping of concepts from
                  one domain to another (or, metaphorically speaking, eat my own dog food
                  ;-), the domain being mapped to needs to be sufficiently non-trivial
                  ("building software is like flipping a coin" doesn't quite make it), but
                  not complexer than the original domain ("building software is like flying
                  to the moon" tends to add complexity and not reduce it). the question then
                  becomes "What shall we map software development to?"....

                  ...which, I guess, gets us back to your original question.

                  One example of a metaphor that seems to work quite effectively for me is
                  the about agile processes being parts of your bicycle (I posted that here
                  on Nov. 13). I personally can't find "the one and only" good example of
                  what building software as a whole is like. Maybe that's because every
                  effort is so special that any attempt at generalization will end up being
                  too abstract. I really don't know. I'll think about it, though.

                  Cheers

                  --
                  Joseph Pelrine [ | ]
                  MetaProg GmbH
                  Email: jpelrine@...
                  Web: http://www.metaprog.com

                  You don't become enormously successful without encountering some really
                  interesting problems.
                  - Mark Victor Hansen
                • aacockburn
                  ... I am on record as defending the idea of software development as a (finite, resource-limited) cooperative game (of invention and communication) . IMHO it
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, todd <todd@p...> wrote:
                    > Joseph Pelrine wrote:
                    > > >I think any thing of any complexity becomes its own metaphor.
                    >
                    > useful broad scale software related metaphors? Perhaps you can
                    > share some you like?

                    I am on record as defending the idea of "software development as a
                    (finite, resource-limited) cooperative game (of invention and
                    communication)". IMHO it scales very nicely and covers everything but
                    the individual craft aspect, which is neatly hit by
                    Naur's "programming as theory building."

                    Both are written up in detail in the Agile Software Development book,
                    and also online at
                    http://alistair.cockburn.us/crystal/articles/cgm/cooperativegamemanife
                    sto.html
                    http://alistair.cockburn.us/crystal/articles/sdacg/softwaredevelopment
                    asacooperativegame.html
                    http://alistair.cockburn.us/crystal/articles/crystal/books/asd/extract
                    s/asdapp2/asdapp2naurehnmusashi.htm
                    and
                    http://alistair.cockburn.us/crystal/articles/teoseatsoecg/theendofsoft
                    wareengineering.htm

                    I've also written about software development as community poetry
                    writing
                    (http://alistair.cockburn.us/crystal/articles/sdacpw/softwaredevelopme
                    ntascommunitypoetrywriting.html), but that was strictly to highlight
                    certain aspects of software developmet that don't get enough
                    attention, not as an explanatory model.

                    Alistair
                  • Clarke Ching
                    Hi everyone, I missed the start of this thread so odds are I m completely off target here. I recently discovered an analogoy or metaphor (what s the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
                      Hi everyone,
                       
                      I missed the start of this thread so odds are I'm completely off target here.
                       
                      I recently discovered an analogoy or metaphor (what's the difference?) for the waterfall way of doing things. 
                       
                      I'm sure there are many things wrong with it and I may be accussed of sharing too much informaiton ... but ... take a look.
                       
                      Warning: it involves dried apricots, the band Simple Minds and rather hurried taxi trip:
                       
                       
                      Clarke
                    • Karl Scotland
                      ... Now that s a particularly interesting one to me, being in the digital TV domain! Do you have any more info? Links? Tried google with no luck! Karl
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                        >
                        > Do a google search on "software is like" and you're sure to
                        > find that it's like just about everything, including:
                        >
                        > Like TiVo

                        Now that's a particularly interesting one to me, being in the digital TV
                        domain! Do you have any more info? Links? Tried google with no luck!

                        Karl
                      • Mike Cohn
                        I checked that metaphor more and it was a bit of false match on software is like.. Here s a link: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041116/165431_1.html The statement
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
                          I checked that metaphor more and it was a bit of false match on "software is
                          like.."

                          Here's a link: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041116/165431_1.html

                          The statement it makes is that our "software is like tivo for streaming
                          media." So it's a description of their product, not the software process
                          itself.

                          --Mike

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Karl Scotland [mailto:kscotland@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 8:43 AM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Help - looking for recent "metaphor" article



                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                          >
                          > Do a google search on "software is like" and you're sure to
                          > find that it's like just about everything, including:
                          >
                          > Like TiVo

                          Now that's a particularly interesting one to me, being in the digital TV
                          domain! Do you have any more info? Links? Tried google with no luck!

                          Karl



                          To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • aacockburn
                          ... target ... difference?) for ... of ... rather ... Fascinating analogy! However, for the analogy to be meaningful, you would want the reader to infer that
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Clarke Ching" <lists@c...>
                            wrote:
                            > Hi everyone,
                            >
                            > I missed the start of this thread so odds are I'm completely off
                            target
                            > here.
                            >
                            > I recently discovered an analogoy or metaphor (what's the
                            difference?) for
                            > the waterfall way of doing things.
                            >
                            > I'm sure there are many things wrong with it and I may be accussed
                            of
                            > sharing too much informaiton ... but ... take a look.
                            >
                            > Warning: it involves dried apricots, the band Simple Minds and
                            rather
                            > hurried taxi trip:
                            >
                            > http://www.clarkeching.com/2004/11/simple_minds_dr.html
                            >
                            > Clarke


                            Fascinating analogy! However, for the analogy to be meaningful, you
                            would want the reader to infer that if you eat 5 dried apricots you
                            go to the bathroom for a 3 minute visit, and if you eat 10 dried
                            apricots you go to the bathroom for a 8 minute visit, and if you eat
                            20 dried apricots you run to the bathroom and stay in there for half
                            an hour.

                            I'm not sure dried apricots have that effect. That is the effect of
                            doing / not doing incremental integration and testing though, which
                            is what you're working to communicate.

                            And I am stumped over one thing --- don't they have bathrooms at
                            Simple Minds concerts? ;-)
                          • Deb
                            So, it seems the short answer is: Nobody recognises the article I m looking for, from my description. Oh well. I had started reading it and somehow lost track
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
                              So, it seems the short answer is:
                              Nobody recognises the article I'm looking for, from my description.
                              Oh well. I had started reading it and somehow lost track of it.
                              Well, if anyone spots it on the web, please let me know.
                              Thanks!
                              deb

                              PS: didn't find the link I wanted, but there has been lots of
                              interesting conversation on the topic - bonus! :-)

                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Cohn" <mike@m...>
                              wrote:
                              > I checked that metaphor more and it was a bit of false match
                              on "software is
                              > like.."
                              >
                              > Here's a link: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041116/165431_1.html
                              >
                              > The statement it makes is that our "software is like tivo for
                              streaming
                              > media." So it's a description of their product, not the software
                              process
                              > itself.
                              >
                              > --Mike
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Karl Scotland [mailto:kscotland@t...]
                              > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 8:43 AM
                              > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Help - looking for
                              recent "metaphor" article
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@m...]
                              > >
                              > > Do a google search on "software is like" and you're sure to
                              > > find that it's like just about everything, including:
                              > >
                              > > Like TiVo
                              >
                              > Now that's a particularly interesting one to me, being in the
                              digital TV
                              > domain! Do you have any more info? Links? Tried google with no
                              luck!
                              >
                              > Karl
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • woynam
                              Given the recent string of hot threads, I d propose the following: Agile software development is like teen sex: - Everybody is talking about it - Most are
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
                                Given the recent string of "hot" threads, I'd propose the following:

                                Agile software development is like teen sex:

                                - Everybody is talking about it
                                - Most are not doing it
                                - Those that are doing it, are doing it wrong

                                ;-)

                                Mark

                                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <deborah@h...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I recently saw a blog or article somewhere (???) recently, where
                                > someone in this crowd was reflecting on suitable metaphors for what
                                we
                                > do. Specifically, I believe it was an alternative to the
                                manufacturing
                                > metaphor. Might have been following OOPSLA in Vancouver?
                                >
                                > Can anyone suggest what I might be looking for and where I can find
                                > it? I've searched my blogs and the Agile Alliance library to no
                                avail...
                                >
                                > I think I've reached saturation... or old timers disease is
                                starting :-)
                                > deb
                              • Hubert Smits
                                Hi Todd, While building an Internet Bank in Scotland the metaphore used by the team was that of a production line. On a production line a car (for example)
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
                                  Hi Todd,

                                  While building an Internet Bank in Scotland the metaphore used by the
                                  team was that of a production line. On a production line a car (for
                                  example) goes from station to station. Each station adds a nut or bolt
                                  and at the end of the line a car rolls of. The process in the bank,
                                  and the IT system supporting it was based on this idea: every station
                                  adds something to the product (a mortgage or a loan). E.g. a station
                                  provides information (rates, payback periods etc). Then a station
                                  takes details of the customer and the desired product. Next one does a
                                  credit check. Then paperwork is printed. Paperwork checked. Money
                                  released. Postings made to the GL etc. etc.

                                  Is that a metaphor you were looking for?

                                  --Hubert


                                  On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:47:34 -0800, todd <todd@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Joseph Pelrine wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > At 20:50 27.11.2004, you wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > >I think any thing of any complexity becomes its own metaphor. Saying
                                  > > >software is like X doesn't add much light. It reflects more of the story
                                  > > >teller than the story.
                                  > >
                                  > > I beg to disagree.
                                  >
                                  > No need to beg. I don't really disagree with much of what you said, yet
                                  > i have not seen
                                  > useful broad scale software related metaphors. Perhaps you can share
                                  > some you like?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Dion Stewart
                                  Deb, Could these be it? http://www.domaindrivendesign.org/wiki/?page=SoftwareDevelopmentIsLike http://domaindrivendesign.org/articles/blog/
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
                                    Deb,

                                    Could these be it?

                                    http://www.domaindrivendesign.org/wiki/?page=SoftwareDevelopmentIsLike

                                    http://domaindrivendesign.org/articles/blog/
                                    evans_eric_software_is_not_like_that.html

                                    Dion


                                    On Wednesday, December 1, 2004, at 01:20 PM, Deb wrote:

                                    > So, it seems the short answer is:
                                    > Nobody recognises the article I'm looking for, from my description.
                                    > Oh well. I had started reading it and somehow lost track of it.
                                    > Well, if anyone spots it on the web, please let me know.
                                    > Thanks!
                                    > deb
                                  • Mike Dwyer
                                    15 yards, woyman unnecessary metaphor. Penalty to be taken from the time your users ask for another insane last minute change. (^8 Michael F. Dwyer
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 1, 2004
                                      15 yards, woyman unnecessary metaphor. Penalty to be taken from the time
                                      your users ask for another insane last minute change.

                                      (^8

                                      Michael F. Dwyer

                                      Mike.Dwyer1@...



                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: woynam [mailto:woyna@...]
                                      Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:23 PM
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Help - looking for recent "metaphor" article



                                      Given the recent string of "hot" threads, I'd propose the following:

                                      Agile software development is like teen sex:

                                      - Everybody is talking about it
                                      - Most are not doing it
                                      - Those that are doing it, are doing it wrong

                                      ;-)

                                      Mark

                                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <deborah@h...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I recently saw a blog or article somewhere (???) recently, where
                                      > someone in this crowd was reflecting on suitable metaphors for what
                                      we
                                      > do. Specifically, I believe it was an alternative to the
                                      manufacturing
                                      > metaphor. Might have been following OOPSLA in Vancouver?
                                      >
                                      > Can anyone suggest what I might be looking for and where I can find
                                      > it? I've searched my blogs and the Agile Alliance library to no
                                      avail...
                                      >
                                      > I think I've reached saturation... or old timers disease is
                                      starting :-)
                                      > deb






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                                    • Karl Scotland
                                      Ah. That s a shame. Mind you, it makes me wonder whether I could come up with a tv related metaphor that would really work where I am, or whether it might be
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
                                        Ah. That's a shame.
                                        Mind you, it makes me wonder whether I could come up with a tv related
                                        metaphor that would really work where I am, or whether it might be a bit
                                        contrived.

                                        Karl

                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                                        >
                                        > I checked that metaphor more and it was a bit of false match
                                        > on "software is like.."
                                        >
                                        > Here's a link: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041116/165431_1.html
                                        >
                                        > The statement it makes is that our "software is like tivo for
                                        > streaming media." So it's a description of their product,
                                        > not the software process itself.
                                        >
                                        > --Mike
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: Karl Scotland [mailto:kscotland@...]
                                        >
                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                                        > >
                                        > > Do a google search on "software is like" and you're sure to
                                        > > find that it's like just about everything, including:
                                        > >
                                        > > Like TiVo
                                        >
                                        > Now that's a particularly interesting one to me, being in the
                                        > digital TV domain! Do you have any more info? Links? Tried
                                        > google with no luck!
                                        >
                                      • Joseph Pelrine
                                        ... How about starting with something like writing software is like working for the BBC , and see how far that analogy gets you ;-) Cheers -- Joseph Pelrine [
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
                                          At 09:51 02.12.2004, you wrote:

                                          >Ah. That's a shame.
                                          >Mind you, it makes me wonder whether I could come up with a tv related
                                          >metaphor that would really work where I am, or whether it might be a bit
                                          >contrived.

                                          How about starting with something like "writing software is like working
                                          for the BBC", and see how far that analogy gets you ;-)

                                          Cheers

                                          --
                                          Joseph Pelrine [ | ]
                                          MetaProg GmbH
                                          Email: jpelrine@...
                                          Web: http://www.metaprog.com

                                          You don't become enormously successful without encountering some really
                                          interesting problems.
                                          - Mark Victor Hansen
                                        • Karl Scotland
                                          ... That could get me into a whole lot of trouble as I m now working for a competitor (in so far as the BBC has competitors :) Karl
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: Joseph Pelrine [mailto:jpelrine@...]
                                            >
                                            > How about starting with something like "writing software is
                                            > like working
                                            > for the BBC", and see how far that analogy gets you ;-)

                                            That could get me into a whole lot of trouble as I'm now working for a
                                            competitor (in so far as the BBC has competitors :)

                                            Karl
                                          • todd
                                            Hubert, i think there are a lot of tactical metaphors like you describe. They help us bootstrap from one domain to another. But what about your software do i
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
                                              Hubert, i think there are a lot of tactical metaphors like you describe.
                                              They
                                              help us bootstrap from one domain to another. But what about your software
                                              do i really know now?

                                              If you are describing the system to a muggle then you have given them a
                                              hand up
                                              in understanding.

                                              As a software developer i see a universe of choices, decisions, options,
                                              and implementations
                                              that could lead to an infinite set of concrete systems. When i dig into
                                              the real system it
                                              forms its own domain. In time you will be using your system as the
                                              source domain for other metaphoric
                                              mappings. It's a cyclic folding and unfolding and of mappings. Pick a
                                              different
                                              point in the cycle and you will see and understand something differently.

                                              Where is the true metaphor? That's like looking at a hologram and saying
                                              where is
                                              the true image. It is implicate in all parts of the system.

                                              Hubert Smits wrote:

                                              > Hi Todd,
                                              >
                                              > While building an Internet Bank in Scotland the metaphore used by the
                                              > team was that of a production line. On a production line a car (for
                                              > example) goes from station to station. Each station adds a nut or bolt
                                              > and at the end of the line a car rolls of. The process in the bank,
                                              > and the IT system supporting it was based on this idea: every station
                                              > adds something to the product (a mortgage or a loan). E.g. a station
                                              > provides information (rates, payback periods etc). Then a station
                                              > takes details of the customer and the desired product. Next one does a
                                              > credit check. Then paperwork is printed. Paperwork checked. Money
                                              > released. Postings made to the GL etc. etc.
                                              >
                                              > Is that a metaphor you were looking for?
                                              >
                                              > --Hubert
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:47:34 -0800, todd <todd@...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Joseph Pelrine wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > > At 20:50 27.11.2004, you wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > >I think any thing of any complexity becomes its own metaphor. Saying
                                              > > > >software is like X doesn't add much light. It reflects more of
                                              > the story
                                              > > > >teller than the story.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I beg to disagree.
                                              > >
                                              > > No need to beg. I don't really disagree with much of what you said, yet
                                              > > i have not seen
                                              > > useful broad scale software related metaphors. Perhaps you can share
                                              > > some you like?
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
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                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
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                                            • mike.dwyer1@comcast.net
                                              The Stone s you can t always get what you want is what I keep on hearing when business people ask for somethings. John Sebastian s Did you ever have to make
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
                                                The Stone's "you can't always get what you want" is what I keep on hearing when business people ask for somethings.
                                                 
                                                John Sebastian's "Did you ever have to make up your mind." are the words I sing to folks who want to collapse a 9 month project into 1 month.
                                                 
                                                But the question is are these metaphors or just something simile-r to them.
                                                 
                                                --
                                                Mike Dwyer

                                                "I Keep six faithful serving-men
                                                Who serve me well and true:
                                                Their names are What and Where and When
                                                And How and Why and Who." - Kipling
                                                 
                                                -------------- Original message --------------

                                                >
                                                > Ah. That's a shame.
                                                > Mind you, it makes me wonder whether I could come up with a tv related
                                                > metaphor that would really work where I am, or whether it might be a bit
                                                > contrived.
                                                >
                                                > Karl
                                                >
                                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                                > > From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                                                > >
                                                > > I checked that metaphor more and it was a bit of false match
                                                > > on "software is like.."
                                                > >
                                                > > Here's a link: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041116/165431_1.html
                                                > >
                                                > > The statement it makes is that our "software is like tivo for
                                                > > streaming media." So it's a description of their product,
                                                > > not the software process itself.
                                                > >
                                                > > --Mike
                                                > >
                                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                                > > From: Karl Scotland [mailto:kscotland@...]
                                                > >
                                                > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                > > > From: Mike Cohn [mailto:mike@...]
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Do a google search on "software is like" and you're sure to
                                                > > > find that it's like just about everything, including:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Like TiVo
                                                > >
                                                > > Now that's a particularly interesting one to me, being in the
                                                > > digital TV domain! Do you have any more info? Links? Tried
                                                > > google with no luck!
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
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