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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Can the team replace the Scrum Master?

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  • Pierre Neis
    Theoretically yes Pierre Neis Mobile Device ... Theoretically yes Pierre Neis Mobile Device Le 14 févr. 2012 à 09:10, Joshua Partogi
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 14, 2012
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      Theoretically yes 

       Pierre Neis
      Mobile Device

      Le 14 févr. 2012 à 09:10, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> a écrit :

       

      Hi,

      In related to the discussion on the other thread about whether a Scrum Master should have a technical knowledge in software development, can the team decide to replace the Scrum Master if they found that the Scrum Master is not effective? Also considering that the team now has full authority with the project at tactical level.

      Thanks heaps.

      --
      @jpartogi

    • Abhilash c
      Scrum Master doesn t have any authority over the feature team. It helps to reinforce this idea if the team has the power to choose/replace the Scrum Master.
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 14, 2012
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        Scrum Master doesn't have any "authority" over the feature team. It helps to reinforce this idea if the team has the power to choose/replace the Scrum Master. But how will you define the effectiveness? The teams ( & the company's) perception about the role is very important before some action is taken. Agile enthusiasts should help creating a correct job profile for the scrum master.

         
        Regards
        Abhilash


        On 14 February 2012 13:40, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
         

        Hi,

        In related to the discussion on the other thread about whether a Scrum Master should have a technical knowledge in software development, can the team decide to replace the Scrum Master if they found that the Scrum Master is not effective? Also considering that the team now has full authority with the project at tactical level.

        Thanks heaps.

        --
        @jpartogi


      • Pierre Neis
        Ron Project Management is 2 parts: - product - process Management position is only a role not a function. If you consider PM as only blaming then this not PM.
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 14, 2012
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          Ron

          Project Management is 2 parts:
          - product
          - process

          Management position is only a role not a function.

          If you consider PM as only blaming then this not PM.
          If you consider that a project without purpose is a project then you're wrong.
          If you consider engineering as project then you're wrong.

          According that we want to create a system where social dynamics are managing then you're right. A system can be seen as a Cloud, a project is then like an Application.

          If you want to start Scrum in a company (not a start'up) where you can find a lot of different cultures (Management, Engineering, etc) and where people are convinced that a dedicated team is not possible and that a project manager is in place just to manage resources timesheets, then you have to start to teach them Project Management.
          When this is done, you got a loom to start agile and scrum.

          In other emerging countries, where there is not PM culture, companies are starting agile and scrum. And step by step, they want to know more about management (i.e. PM).

          But this is my POV.

          Following the discussions about agile on different forums, I think that we all are talking about the same thing.

          Making the same in PM forums, I've collecting facts that nobody is closer to real PM that agile and scrum people.

          Pierre E.  NEIScsp

          Operational Excellence Consultant @ coPROcess S.A. │ Scrum & Lean Coach   

          M: +352 / 661 727 867│ Meet with me: http://meetwith.me/pierreneis

          Owner of the "Product Owner's Help Desk"


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          Save a tree - kill a beaver


          On 14 February 2012 13:26, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
           

          Hi Joshua,

          On Feb 14, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:

          > Nice. This is quite contrary to popular beliefs where a Project Management cannot be replaced by the team. In related to Nicholas' comment, has anyone been in a situation where the team want to replace the SM but the management is reluctant to replace the SM

          Scrum Master is not, repeat not, a "project management" position.

          R


        • Abhilash c
          I have seen few occasions when the team wanted to replace the SM but management didn t allow. In one of teams @ my company , the SM was new to the job. Team
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 14, 2012
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            I have seen few occasions when the team wanted to replace the SM but management didn't allow. In one of teams @ my company , the SM was new to the job. Team was resisting the outsider. Being new to the SM job also didn't help our new guy. Management didn't allow the team to change (or choose) the SM. Over a period of time our new SM improved a lot & team also started adjusting to the new guy.
             
            Personally I believe an SM ( or anyone else) should be removed from the team if they become a serious impediment to the development of the team.  A good SM will not wait for the teams feedback; if he/she feels that they have become an impediment to the teams further progress  then they should voluntary move out of the team. Such decisions shouldn't be based on someones feelings but should be based on metrics.
             
            Abhilash

            On 14 February 2012 17:53, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
             

            Nice. This is quite contrary to popular beliefs where a Project Management cannot be replaced by the team. In related to Nicholas' comment, has anyone been in a situation where the team want to replace the SM but the management is reluctant to replace the SM? 



            On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
             

            Hi Nicholas,



            On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:36 PM, Nicholas <nxidis@...> wrote:

            > I think it works best when the team and product owner have a large voice in the selection but, I think management has to play a role too because the Scrum Master has a delivery responsibility. I could see some teams turning it into a popularity contest and the politics of the selection might take on a life of its own - a bad thing

            Um, well, no. The Scrum Master does not have delivery responsibility.
            The Product Owner has the sole delivery responsibility. The Scrum
            Master is a servant leader whose responsibilities are to the team, not
            to the larger organization.

            Therefore, if the team finds the SM is not serving them well, they
            should replace the SM.

            Regards,

            Ron



            --
            @jpartogi


          • Pierre Neis
            Here a best world example. Assumptions: each PO works in pair with her/his SM and vice versa Story: Senior Management didn t choose a SM because they choose
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 15, 2012
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              Here a "best world" example.

              Assumptions: each PO works in pair with her/his SM and vice versa

              Story:
              Senior Management didn't choose a SM because they choose a project. According to that, the 1st person chosen is the PO. Else wise, it's a Change Coach Manager coming from HR Department.

              1. We want to do this project because we are the sponsors
              2. We choose the right person who can manage that (or a team of 2)
              3. This person can select the team and the methodology to deliver on time and on scope (a/o budget) the project
              4. the rest ist well known Scrum (if you want to deliver in batches)

              If your organization is mature, they want to have 4 eyes management: PO+SM.

              If you're wanting that this adoption is emerging bottom-up then it takes much longer to settle up your Scrum.

              Pierre E.  NEIScsp

              Operational Excellence Consultant @ coPROcess S.A. │ Scrum & Lean Coach   

              M: +352 / 661 727 867│ Meet with me: http://meetwith.me/pierreneis

              Owner of the "Product Owner's Help Desk"


              Blogger Twitter LinkedIn SlideShare
              Contact me: Google Talk pierreneis@... Skype pierre.neis
              TwitterLatest tweet: @YvesHanoulle @chrissbaumann @lassekoskela +1 consider my friend the manager Follow @elPedroMajor Reply Retweet   13:24 Feb-14
              Save a tree - kill a beaver


              On 15 February 2012 09:34, Michael James <mj4scrum@...> wrote:
               

              On Feb 14, 2012, at 3:36 AM, Nicholas wrote:

              I think it works best when the team and product owner have a large voice in the selection but, I think management has to play a role too because the Scrum Master has a delivery responsibility.

              Not sure what you mean by "delivery responsibility," but it seems to clash with the definition of ScrumMaster I learned from Ken Schwaber.  A huge part of the ScrumMaster's job is to address impediments caused by the outer organization, which may involve asking management* to change some of its habits.

              I could see some teams turning it into a popularity contest and the politics of the selection might take on a life of its own - a bad thing. 

              From what I've seen, people are respected by their immediate collaborators for good reasons, such as being good at doing their jobs and helping others do their jobs.  People may be good at impressing bosses for similar reasons, or less good reasons.  Who would you believe if my boss said I was a great guy, but the people who actually worked with me didn't trust me?

              --mj

              * As an aside, the idea of a "management" caste isn't a necessary part of an unimpeded organization.



            • Abhilash c
              i have heard this many times :(. If team feels that they need a technical SM then i believe that rather than removing the SM we should question the technical
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 15, 2012
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                i have heard this many times :(. If team feels that they need a technical SM then i believe that rather than removing the SM we should question the technical capacity of the tech lead in the team. The primary job of the SM is to work on the impediments and help create a self sustaining team. If SM starts providing all the technical solutions, analysis and guidance then he/she will be the biggest impediment preventing the team from self organising and sustaining

                On 15 February 2012 21:41, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                 

                Hi George,

                The team have a Scrum Master, but he is a former traditional project manager with no technical background. In some cases the SM cannot help the team with technical impediments. That is why the team is thinking to replace the SM with someone who is more technical.



                On Wednesday, February 15, 2012, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
                >  
                >
                > Joshua,
                >
                > On 2/14/12 3:10 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
                >>
                >> In related to the discussion on the other thread about whether a Scrum
                >> Master should have a technical knowledge in software development, can
                >> the team decide to replace the Scrum Master if they found that the Scrum
                >> Master is not effective? Also considering that the team now has full
                >> authority with the project at tactical level.
                >
                > If the Scrum Master is not effective, then it seems the team already
                > does not have a Scrum Master.
                >
                > In what ways is the team finding the Scrum Master ineffective? What is
                > the team currently doing about that?
                >
                > - George
                >
                > P.S. I've also known teams who wanted to get rid of their Scrum Master
                > so they could continue to not do Scrum at all.
                >
                > --
                > ----------------------------------------------------------
                > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                > ----------------------------------------------------------
                >
                >

                --
                @jpartogi


              • Ram Srinivasan
                Joshua: Looks like you have a quality issue here. Is there an agreement between the stakeholders on definition of done ? TDD is a good practice, but what is
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 15, 2012
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                  Joshua:

                  Looks like you have a quality issue here. Is there an agreement between the stakeholders on "definition of done"?  TDD is a good practice, but what is the cause for the bugs that keep showing up? I don't exactly know your context, but might be the cause is something else, did you think about it ? Incompetent team? PO who is not fully committed? Something else? If I were you, I would do a root cause analysis

                  If you are a part of this dev team, why don't you suggest ATDD/TDD during your retrospectives ? I might be wrong, but the picture I get from this email chain is that even if the SM suggests a technical practice, the team might discount it as the SM does not have a technical background.

                  I had been SM for teams which did not practice TDD initially, but regardless, a good scrum master should solve problems for the team (either by helping the team solve the problem, or by using his positional authority ) or bubble up problems which he cannot solve to PO or management

                  Cheers,
                  Ram

                  --
                  Sent from a phone that often corrects words I tapped (or "swyped" )  to words I may not have meant.

                  On Feb 16, 2012 7:56 AM, "Joshua Partogi" <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                   

                  Hi George,

                  One obvious technical impediment is bugs that keeps showing up. The team doesn't know anything things TDD and neither does the Scrum Master. The SM cannot suggest any improvement in related to this during sprint retro as he doesn't have tecnical background.

                  On Wednesday, February 15, 2012, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
                  > Joshua,
                  >
                  > On 2/15/12 11:11 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Hi George,
                  >>
                  >> The team have a Scrum Master, but he is a former traditional project
                  >> manager with no technical background. In some cases the SM cannot help
                  >> the team with technical impediments. That is why the team is thinking to
                  >> replace the SM with someone who is more technical.
                  >
                  > Can you give me an example or three of a "technical impediment?" Several
                  > possibilities come to mind, but I'd rather not assume what you mean.
                  >
                  >  - George
                  >
                  > --
                  >  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >   * George Dinwiddie *                      http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                  >   Software Development                    http://www.idiacomputing.com
                  >   Consultant and Coach                    http://www.agilemaryland.org
                  >  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  --
                  @jpartogi

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