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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum without ScrumMaster

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  • Robin Paterson
    Hi Jess, Reading your post, it appears to me that you, like some of the recent posters here, are looking for problems where none exist, and not really
    Message 1 of 112 , Dec 26, 2011
      Hi Jess,
          Reading your post, it appears to me that you, like some of the recent posters here, are looking for problems where none exist, and not really understanding the solutions before openly criticising them.

          As intellectual property is in my domain, I'm interested in your questions - "who owns the scrum name", and "is the process part of the public domain".  However, as with the earlier posters, the questions you pose reflect your underlying lack of knowledge in the domains of both scrum and IP.

          "Who owns the scrum name"
          From an IP perspective, nobody "owns" a name.  There are four, and only four, mechanisms to protect IP: trade & service marks, copyright, patents, and trade secrets.  We all know the name, so it's not a trade secret.  The name itself isn't a method for doing something, so we're not talking about a patent.  It's a single word, so we're not looking at copyright, so that leaves trade & service marks.  As we're talking about a method of achieving an improvement in business, someone could, potentially, in association with the process itself, obtain a trademark for the word "scrum".  However, as there's no such thing as a global trademark, the effort required to trademark "scrum" around the world makes this significantly more effort than it's worth.  In fact, even trying to get a scrum trademark in a single location is hardly worth the effort.  If I was really interested though, I could look on government IP sites worldwide to see if the trademark had been registered in a particular location, as Peter has demonstrated in his post.

          From a practitioner perspective, who cares?  As George Dinwiddie once said on this forum, "call it sploosh".  It's just a name.  However, given the amount of work done in this field, coupled with two key books on the process, "Agile Project Management with Scrum" - Ken Schwaber, & "Agile Software Development with Scrum" - Ken Schwaber, Mike Beedle - when someone refers to "scrum" in the context of software development (on this group, for example), then the process to which they refer is the one described in these books, and the Scrum Guide (scrum.org) (and countless other books).

          "is the process in the public domain"
          From an IP perspective, if the process is publicly documented, people are using it, and it's not protected, then it's in the public domain.  You can protect a process using either a patent or a trade secret.  Scrum isn't a trade secret, obviously.  As with trademarks, there's no such thing as a global patent.  Scrum isn't patented.  [I'm happy to discuss business method patents, and licensing, but not in this group, as it has nothing to do with scrum]

          From a practitioner perspective, who cares?  The process is described in a number of places, and nowhere is licensing, fees, or registration mentioned.  Visit scrum.org, read the Scrum Guide, or the two books above.

          I'm running out of steam a little now.  It's Christmas, I'm supposed to be on holiday, but I'm still somewhat taken aback by the ignorance and arrogance you've vividly displayed in your post.  The people in this group don't have to help anyone, but they choose to do so - it's entirely voluntary though.  If you're not going to take the time to listen, and inform yourself, don't be surprised when, ultimately, nobody is interested in helping you.

          Don't get me wrong, I like diverse questions, and I see merit in your questions - contrast, for example, Stage-Gate (http://www.stage-gate.com/trademark.php).  My point remains though, an extremely valuable life skill is knowing which questions to ask, and how to ask them.  Your post is one of the finest examples I've seen in some time of how not to ask a question in a public forum.

          Kind regards,
      -R.


      On 22/12/2011 16:39, jessicacp23 wrote:
       



      All,

      For already a few days but there has not been any response to Rroy43's first email about who ultimately owns the Scrum name and my question as to whether Scrum as a process is actually part of the public domain or not.

      It is strange that most of the people in this forum, many of whom I guess should be Scrum experts and trainers, but all seem to have wanted to avoid to clarify this, even though there seems to have been such a huge amount of postings going on about how much Scrum is good.

      This seems to look like one of those situations where Laurent Bossavit had rightly mentioned before: "do like I said, but not like I do" when he was talking about the heavy monitoring and control on this forum, which is on Scrum, but according to which Scrum teams should be self-organized.

      Now when it comes to transparency, it looks like it is the same thing again since we all have been told that Scrum teams should be all about transparency but when it comes to create transparency about Scrum's own status, then it is rather a big silence.

      Jess

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "jessicacp23" <jessicacp23@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi Rroy43,
      >
      > A very good question...From what I had heard, it looks like Scrum, the process framework as we know it, is actually part of the public domain.
      >
      > I am not speaking necessarily only about the name trademark, which seems to be owned by the Scrum Alliance (even though that will be interesting to have this confirmed as well), but especially about the Scrum process content itself...
      >
      > It would be nice if someone can clarify this for us.
      >
      > Jessica
      >
      > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "rroy43@" <rroy43@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Wondering who legally owns the "Scrum" brand name? Scrum alliance or Scrum.org?
      > >
      > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Pierre Neis <pierreneis@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Scrum without Scrum Master is Agile Development.
      > > >
      > > > According to the latest version on the Scrum Guide, having a Scrum Master
      > > > is prerequisite to Scrum, like Product Owner and Development Team.
      > > >
      > > > I agree with your feedback, sometimes it is not necessary to do Scrum.
      > > >
      > > > But, the hidden power of Scrum is the balance between SPO & SM, between
      > > > Product Management and Process Management.
      > > >
      > > > *Pierre E. NEIS*, *csp*
      > > >
      > > > *Head of Lean Competence Centre @ coPROcess S.A. **â"‚ Scrum & Lean Coach *
      > > >
      > > > *M*: +352 / 661 727 867 - *Skype*: pierre.neis
      > > > *Meet with* me: http://meetwith.me/pierreneis
      > > >
      > > > *
      > > > *
      > > >
      > > > [image: Blogger] <http://managingagile.blogspot.com> [image:
      > > > Twitter]<http://twitter.com/elpedromajor> [image:
      > > > LinkedIn] <http://lu.linkedin.com/in/pierreneis> [image:
      > > > SlideShare]<http://www.slideshare.net/PierreNeis>
      > > > Contact me: [image: Google Talk] pierreneis@ [image: Skype]pierre.neis
      > > > “"If you think you know everything about baseball, your dead wrong!" -
      > > > Julian "JUNEBUG"
      > > > Bussells<http://www.quotesdaddy.com/quote/1392067/julian-junebug-bussells/if-you-think-you-know-everything-about-baseball-your>
      > > > ” Get this email app!
      > > > <http://www.wisestamp.com/apps/quotes?utm_source=extension&utm_medium=email&utm_term=quotes&utm_campaign=apps>
      > > >
      > > > [image: Twitter] <http://twitter.com/elPedroMajor>Latest tweet: a Daily
      > > > NEIS's world! is out! http://t.co/YpLxwEdT â–¸ Top stories today via @stdout
      > > > @davidchilcott Follow @elPedroMajor <http://twitter.com/elPedroMajor> Reply
      > > > <http://twitter.com/?status=@elPedroMajor%20&in_reply_to_status_id=148010499710263300&in_reply_to=elPedroMajor>
      > > > Retweet
      > > > <http://twitter.com/?status=RT%20%40elPedroMajor%3A%20a%20Daily%20NEIS's%20world!%20is%20out!%20http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FYpLxwEdT%20%E2%96%B8%20Top%20stories%20today%20via%20%40stdout%20%40davidchilcott>
      > > > 13:03 Dec-17<http://twitter.com/elPedroMajor/statuses/148010499710263296>
      > > > Get a signature like this.
      > > > <http://r1.wisestamp.com/r/landing?promo=17&dest=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wisestamp.com%2Femail-install%3Futm_source%3Dextension%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_campaign%3Dpromo_17>
      > > > CLICK
      > > > HERE.<http://r1.wisestamp.com/r/landing?promo=17&dest=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wisestamp.com%2Femail-install%3Futm_source%3Dextension%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_campaign%3Dpromo_17>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On 17 December 2011 05:08, quang7889 <quang7889@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > **
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi Ron,
      > > > >
      > > > > Glad to hear that you are such an experienced software professional!
      > > > >
      > > > > This is why I am not surprised why you were so affirmative that many
      > > > > project teams could be successful without a ScrumMaster or could out growth
      > > > > the need of a ScrumMaster, as I had seen many times.
      > > > >
      > > > > I like this type of adaptation to real-life situations in the trenches,
      > > > > similarly to all the (positive) Scrum-buts which Jurgen Appollo, famous
      > > > > author of Management 3.0 in Mike Cohn's book series, talks with so much
      > > > > sense about on his blog below.
      > > > >
      > > > > http://www.noop.nl/2009/09/scrumbuts-are-the-best-part-of-scrum.html
      > > > >
      > > > > Q.
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@>
      > > > > wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Q,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > On Dec 16, 2011, at 4:47 PM, quang7889 wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > Are you one of the people who drafted the Agile Manifesto?
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I have that honor, yes.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Ron Jeffries
      > > > > > www.XProgramming.com
      > > > > > I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
      > > > > > will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
      > > > > > I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
      > > > > > Why pay now when we can pay later?
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >


    • Robin Paterson
      Hi Jess, Reading your post, it appears to me that you, like some of the recent posters here, are looking for problems where none exist, and not really
      Message 112 of 112 , Dec 26, 2011
        Hi Jess,
            Reading your post, it appears to me that you, like some of the recent posters here, are looking for problems where none exist, and not really understanding the solutions before openly criticising them.

            As intellectual property is in my domain, I'm interested in your questions - "who owns the scrum name", and "is the process part of the public domain".  However, as with the earlier posters, the questions you pose reflect your underlying lack of knowledge in the domains of both scrum and IP.

            "Who owns the scrum name"
            From an IP perspective, nobody "owns" a name.  There are four, and only four, mechanisms to protect IP: trade & service marks, copyright, patents, and trade secrets.  We all know the name, so it's not a trade secret.  The name itself isn't a method for doing something, so we're not talking about a patent.  It's a single word, so we're not looking at copyright, so that leaves trade & service marks.  As we're talking about a method of achieving an improvement in business, someone could, potentially, in association with the process itself, obtain a trademark for the word "scrum".  However, as there's no such thing as a global trademark, the effort required to trademark "scrum" around the world makes this significantly more effort than it's worth.  In fact, even trying to get a scrum trademark in a single location is hardly worth the effort.  If I was really interested though, I could look on government IP sites worldwide to see if the trademark had been registered in a particular location, as Peter has demonstrated in his post.

            From a practitioner perspective, who cares?  As George Dinwiddie once said on this forum, "call it sploosh".  It's just a name.  However, given the amount of work done in this field, coupled with two key books on the process, "Agile Project Management with Scrum" - Ken Schwaber, & "Agile Software Development with Scrum" - Ken Schwaber, Mike Beedle - when someone refers to "scrum" in the context of software development (on this group, for example), then the process to which they refer is the one described in these books, and the Scrum Guide (scrum.org) (and countless other books).

            "is the process in the public domain"
            From an IP perspective, if the process is publicly documented, people are using it, and it's not protected, then it's in the public domain.  You can protect a process using either a patent or a trade secret.  Scrum isn't a trade secret, obviously.  As with trademarks, there's no such thing as a global patent.  Scrum isn't patented.  [I'm happy to discuss business method patents, and licensing, but not in this group, as it has nothing to do with scrum]

            From a practitioner perspective, who cares?  The process is described in a number of places, and nowhere is licensing, fees, or registration mentioned.  Visit scrum.org, read the Scrum Guide, or the two books above.

            I'm running out of steam a little now.  It's Christmas, I'm supposed to be on holiday, but I'm still somewhat taken aback by the ignorance and arrogance you've vividly displayed in your post.  The people in this group don't have to help anyone, but they choose to do so - it's entirely voluntary though.  If you're not going to take the time to listen, and inform yourself, don't be surprised when, ultimately, nobody is interested in helping you.

            Don't get me wrong, I like diverse questions, and I see merit in your questions - contrast, for example, Stage-Gate (http://www.stage-gate.com/trademark.php).  My point remains though, an extremely valuable life skill is knowing which questions to ask, and how to ask them.  Your post is one of the finest examples I've seen in some time of how not to ask a question in a public forum.

            Kind regards,
        -R.


        On 22/12/2011 16:39, jessicacp23 wrote:
         



        All,

        For already a few days but there has not been any response to Rroy43's first email about who ultimately owns the Scrum name and my question as to whether Scrum as a process is actually part of the public domain or not.

        It is strange that most of the people in this forum, many of whom I guess should be Scrum experts and trainers, but all seem to have wanted to avoid to clarify this, even though there seems to have been such a huge amount of postings going on about how much Scrum is good.

        This seems to look like one of those situations where Laurent Bossavit had rightly mentioned before: "do like I said, but not like I do" when he was talking about the heavy monitoring and control on this forum, which is on Scrum, but according to which Scrum teams should be self-organized.

        Now when it comes to transparency, it looks like it is the same thing again since we all have been told that Scrum teams should be all about transparency but when it comes to create transparency about Scrum's own status, then it is rather a big silence.

        Jess

        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "jessicacp23" <jessicacp23@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi Rroy43,
        >
        > A very good question...From what I had heard, it looks like Scrum, the process framework as we know it, is actually part of the public domain.
        >
        > I am not speaking necessarily only about the name trademark, which seems to be owned by the Scrum Alliance (even though that will be interesting to have this confirmed as well), but especially about the Scrum process content itself...
        >
        > It would be nice if someone can clarify this for us.
        >
        > Jessica
        >
        > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "rroy43@" <rroy43@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Wondering who legally owns the "Scrum" brand name? Scrum alliance or Scrum.org?
        > >
        > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Pierre Neis <pierreneis@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Scrum without Scrum Master is Agile Development.
        > > >
        > > > According to the latest version on the Scrum Guide, having a Scrum Master
        > > > is prerequisite to Scrum, like Product Owner and Development Team.
        > > >
        > > > I agree with your feedback, sometimes it is not necessary to do Scrum.
        > > >
        > > > But, the hidden power of Scrum is the balance between SPO & SM, between
        > > > Product Management and Process Management.
        > > >
        > > > *Pierre E. NEIS*, *csp*
        > > >
        > > > *Head of Lean Competence Centre @ coPROcess S.A. **â"‚ Scrum & Lean Coach *
        > > >
        > > > *M*: +352 / 661 727 867 - *Skype*: pierre.neis
        > > > *Meet with* me: http://meetwith.me/pierreneis
        > > >
        > > > *
        > > > *
        > > >
        > > > [image: Blogger] <http://managingagile.blogspot.com> [image:
        > > > Twitter]<http://twitter.com/elpedromajor> [image:
        > > > LinkedIn] <http://lu.linkedin.com/in/pierreneis> [image:
        > > > SlideShare]<http://www.slideshare.net/PierreNeis>
        > > > Contact me: [image: Google Talk] pierreneis@ [image: Skype]pierre.neis
        > > > “"If you think you know everything about baseball, your dead wrong!" -
        > > > Julian "JUNEBUG"
        > > > Bussells<http://www.quotesdaddy.com/quote/1392067/julian-junebug-bussells/if-you-think-you-know-everything-about-baseball-your>
        > > > ” Get this email app!
        > > > <http://www.wisestamp.com/apps/quotes?utm_source=extension&utm_medium=email&utm_term=quotes&utm_campaign=apps>
        > > >
        > > > [image: Twitter] <http://twitter.com/elPedroMajor>Latest tweet: a Daily
        > > > NEIS's world! is out! http://t.co/YpLxwEdT â–¸ Top stories today via @stdout
        > > > @davidchilcott Follow @elPedroMajor <http://twitter.com/elPedroMajor> Reply
        > > > <http://twitter.com/?status=@elPedroMajor%20&in_reply_to_status_id=148010499710263300&in_reply_to=elPedroMajor>
        > > > Retweet
        > > > <http://twitter.com/?status=RT%20%40elPedroMajor%3A%20a%20Daily%20NEIS's%20world!%20is%20out!%20http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FYpLxwEdT%20%E2%96%B8%20Top%20stories%20today%20via%20%40stdout%20%40davidchilcott>
        > > > 13:03 Dec-17<http://twitter.com/elPedroMajor/statuses/148010499710263296>
        > > > Get a signature like this.
        > > > <http://r1.wisestamp.com/r/landing?promo=17&dest=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wisestamp.com%2Femail-install%3Futm_source%3Dextension%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_campaign%3Dpromo_17>
        > > > CLICK
        > > > HERE.<http://r1.wisestamp.com/r/landing?promo=17&dest=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wisestamp.com%2Femail-install%3Futm_source%3Dextension%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_campaign%3Dpromo_17>
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > On 17 December 2011 05:08, quang7889 <quang7889@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > **
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Hi Ron,
        > > > >
        > > > > Glad to hear that you are such an experienced software professional!
        > > > >
        > > > > This is why I am not surprised why you were so affirmative that many
        > > > > project teams could be successful without a ScrumMaster or could out growth
        > > > > the need of a ScrumMaster, as I had seen many times.
        > > > >
        > > > > I like this type of adaptation to real-life situations in the trenches,
        > > > > similarly to all the (positive) Scrum-buts which Jurgen Appollo, famous
        > > > > author of Management 3.0 in Mike Cohn's book series, talks with so much
        > > > > sense about on his blog below.
        > > > >
        > > > > http://www.noop.nl/2009/09/scrumbuts-are-the-best-part-of-scrum.html
        > > > >
        > > > > Q.
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@>
        > > > > wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Q,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > On Dec 16, 2011, at 4:47 PM, quang7889 wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > Are you one of the people who drafted the Agile Manifesto?
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I have that honor, yes.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Ron Jeffries
        > > > > > www.XProgramming.com
        > > > > > I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
        > > > > > will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
        > > > > > I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
        > > > > > Why pay now when we can pay later?
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >


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