Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: When managers estimate on behalf of the team in sprint planning
- Do they really? If the team doesn't like a manager** for a valid reason, but his boss doesn't care about that reason and loves that manager, what will happen to the manager? I'm sure you can see the point I'm getting at. In just about every case I've ever seen, where a manager manages a dev team, a manager has a large impact over the future of the team members, and the individual team members have much less impact over the future of the manager. And there's the rub. The incentives are not closely aligned to Dev Team self organization.You can seem more of my thoughts on Managers and Scrum here(including links to other resources on the same topic):http://www.scrumcrazy.com/The+Role+of+Managers+in+ScrumFranklin was a great guy, but that quote is generally an apples to oranges comparison.I'm not sure anyone here on this thread has so far advocated that managers are no longer needed, but I think I and others have advocated that they are no longer needed at the SPM*. :-)
*one exception might be a team and manager *very* new to Scrum, or a manager that is playing the role of SM/PO, which is kind of an anti-pattern in itself)
** By managers, here, I'm speaking of those that *largely* determine (raises, team assignments, performance reviews, vacation, etc) the future of Scrum team members.-------
Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
Experienced Scrum Coach
My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
From: woynam <woyna@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2011 1:42 PM
Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: When managers estimate on behalf of the team in sprint planning
Sure, and the team members have a large impact on the manager's future with the company, too. :-)
As Franklin said, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately".
It's better to have the knowledgeable managers involved, and educate them if they don't follow the rules, then alienate them by telling them that they're no longer needed. Yea, that will sure get them on board.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
> Mark, do your managers have a large impact on your future with the company? Large impact on other Scrum team members' future with the company?
> Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
> Experienced Scrum Coach
> My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
> >From: woynam <woyna@...>
> >To: email@example.com
> >Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2011 12:34 PM
> >Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: When managers estimate on behalf of the team in sprint planning
> >In a perfect world, yes. However, based on the estimates provided by the team at the meeting, the PO may have to juggle the PBIs around, and it's useful to have the stakeholders around if possible.
> >Frankly, I'm quite stunned. Agility is based on collaboration, and having knowledgeable people available to lend a hand sounds like a winning solution to me. Alienating stakeholders by kicking them out of the meeting, and then potentially building the wrong thing because the PO didn't quite understand the requirements seems like the antithesis of collaboration.
> >I'm not saying there aren't bad managers out there, but one should first try to educate them instead of sticking a sign on the club's door that reads "No Managers Allowed".
> >Our managers average over 10 years of experience in our domain. I wouldn't dream of leaving them out of the conversation.
> >--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@> wrote:
> >> Hi Mark ...
> >> On Nov 1, 2011, at 2:24 PM, woynam wrote:
> >> > For a stakeholder, the review meeting is too late to influence the direction of the Sprint, as it's in the past.
> >> I'd suggest that the planning meeting is also too late to influence the Sprint. There is one product owner, not many.
> >> Backlog grooming is where one goes to influence a future Sprint, it seems to me.
> >> Ron Jeffries
> >> www.XProgramming.com
> >> If another does not intend offense, it is wrong for me to seek it;
> >> if another does indeed intend offense, it is foolish for me to permit it.
> >> -- Kelly Easterley
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- Well said, David and MJ, couldn't agree more.The best situation I've ever seen wrt manager involvement is a manager I coached once. I'm not bragging -- I've only been able to make this work well with one of a handful of (functional) managers I've consulted for. Same record with traditional PM's (only one out of a few really "got it").He:a) Took the time to truly understand and embrace Scrum and truly accept coaching from me, andb) Stepped quickly away from the Scrum events(except the Review) once he understood the essence of Scrum (didn't take long), andc) Strongly encouraged the team members to be Scrum team players and for them to self organize. He was extremely flexible with solutions and gave the team a chance to find their own way in terms of self organization. In short, he made it clear that his view of each team member's performance was how well they performed at being a good "Scrum team player." I've been reading some of the "Freakanomics" types of books lately -- as they would say -- the incentives need to be aligned.I would argue that this person already had very good leadership and delegation(servant leader) skills, as well as a long history in software development, and those traits helped greatly, IMO. Same goes for the traditional PM that "got it", except she didn't have a long history in software dev. In a way, the ones that get it are ones that already have good leadership skills. The rest have to pick those up while implementing Scrum from a guide book, if they want to succeed with Scrum.But it only happened once in a handful of times. I've seen the authority vs. self organization problem reduced, but I've never seen it fully eliminated. MJ was right, we're probably a decade away, but in the meantime, the key is to minimize the problem as much as possible without alienating one's self as a change agent. In summary, get that manager out of the Scrum events(except the Review and maybe Release Planning) if there is any feasible way of doing so.-------
Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
Experienced Scrum Coach
My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
From: Michael James <mj4scrum@...>
To: "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: When managers estimate on behalf of the team in sprint planningThe part the "do 'Scrum' but leave our static management roles/titles in place" crowd isn't getting is that the worker's behavior is affected by the power dynamic whether or not the manager abuses it. I've seen the same effect you're describing even on teams with the nicest, most cool bosses. When management seems to be someone else's responsibility, teams don't step up the same way. Even during a Scrum class it's beneficial for the instructor to leave the room sometimes.This is a natural, predictable effect of static hierarchies and defined management roles. One way of knowing for sure this is happening in an organization is everyone claiming it never happens.
On Nov 2, 2011, at 6:43 AM, David A Barrett <dave.barrett@...> wrote:I'd like to remind everyone that this issue was raised as a problem, so the manager's involvement was already proven to be disruptive to the Scrum process. My take on the initial post, though, was that it was presented like a minor glitch. A, "Hey guys, how are you dealing with this common occurrence?" kind of question.
To my mind it's a deal breaker. You fix it ASAP. If it was me, I'd call an immediate end to the current Sprint with the tainted estimates, grab the PO and the Team (and not the manager) and have a Sprint planning meeting this morning.
Even in the best organizations, functional managers can have a chilling effect on an open dialogue within a Team. It seems likely to me that this would be the case here, as the manager hasn't been able to let go and let his subordinates assume authority and responsibility appropriate to their jobs. So should the Team be "denied the experience and expertise of the manager", as someone else put it? You don't even need to get the scales out to weigh the pros and cons of this one: keep the manager away from the estimating process. The accuracy of the estimates is way, way, way, way, way less important than the Team's ownership of the estimates, ownership of the Sprint objectives and commitment to completing the tasks.
Is it a difficult situation? Sure it is, and I can personally relate to it. My own boss was constantly dropping little nuggets of negativism on my Team when we were starting out with Scrum. To say that it had a chilling effect on the Team would be understating it - it was freezing. Any "open" discussion with our boss present was stifled and extremely restrained, and the minute he left the room people would start to open up, speak their minds, suggest ideas, honestly critique ideas and generally contribute the way you wanted them to. Obviously, something needed to be done and it doesn't matter how good your relationship with you boss is, trotting into his office and telling him off is always nerve wracking. I ended up telling him that he demoralising the Team, and that if he wanted to vent his negativity I'm perfectly happy if he does it privately to me but to stow it in the meetings. On the other hand, the damage was done (even years later the Team is still somewhat restrained when he's present), so I stopped inviting him to most of the meetings.
The stakeholders thing is a red herring. Chickens are chickens and as such don't have the right to expect to be included in the planning meeting. End of story. If the Team wants their input, they can ask for it.
Am I suggesting that the Team take an "Us and Them" attitude and build walls to keep the muggles away? No. I'm simply saying that estimating is one of those things that Team gets to have all for itself - actually *must* have all for itself - and in many organizations that's a shocking about-face from past practices and corporate culture. So it probably wouldn't hurt to go a little overboard to make the point.
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