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Re: [scrumdevelopment] agile versus iterative

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  • Dave Rooney
    A very simple test: 1) Are the company s customers delighted with the product, i.e. they actually get excited about the next version? 2) Are the company s
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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      A very simple test:

      1) Are the company's customers delighted with the product, i.e. they actually get excited about the next version?

      2) Are the company's employees delighted with how they build the product, i.e. they can't wait to get to work in the morning?

      If you can answer 'yes' to both of those questions, the development method used is somewhat irrelevant.

      Dave Rooney | Agile Coach and Co-founder
      Westboro Systems - Agile Coaching, Training, Organizational Transformation.
      Blog | Twitter | LinkedIn


      On 2011-10-11, at 10:45 AM, Jean Richardson wrote:

       

      Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice several months ago.  Since then, there has been a change of management and the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks, meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change, (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the daily work and seems to put the “Scrum Master” (quotes intentional) in a more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.

       

      It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively within an iterative development model—but it was definitely no longer agile.  Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I’d better check my own thinking out.  I remembered a blog post I’d seen (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/) that talked about a “test” for agility.  But, when I returned to the source, it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum. 

       

      Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?

       

      --- Jean

       

      <image003.jpg>


      Jean Richardson

      Azure Gate Consulting

      ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work

       

      AzureGate.net

      (503) 788-8998

      Jean@...

       

       

       



    • Alan Dayley
      I am not being facetious when I suggest you look at the Agile Manifesto and its principles. The four value statements and principles make a great check list
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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        I am not being facetious when I suggest you look at the Agile Manifesto and its principles.  The four value statements and principles make a great "check list" of measuring how a team, department or company is doing with being Agile.

        I suppose you could create a series of questions answered with "yes/no" or "1-5, 5=mostly true" that would measure agains the manifesto.  I find just asking "Do we do this?" to each point is enough for excellent conversation.

        Alan 

        On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jean Richardson <jean@...> wrote:
         

        Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice several months ago.  Since then, there has been a change of management and the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks, meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change, (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the daily work and seems to put the “Scrum Master” (quotes intentional) in a more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.

         

        It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively within an iterative development model—but it was definitely no longer agile.  Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I’d better check my own thinking out.  I remembered a blog post I’d seen (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/) that talked about a “test” for agility.  But, when I returned to the source, it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum. 

         

        Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?

         

        --- Jean

         

        gate.site.jpg


        Jean Richardson

        Azure Gate Consulting

        ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work

         

        AzureGate.net

        (503) 788-8998

        Jean@...

         

         

         


      • Michael James
        Does everyone say they re happy? is a useful measurement, but I think it s not a measure of Agility, which does have some specific definitions (such as the
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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          "Does everyone say they're happy?" is a useful measurement, but I think it's not a measure of Agility, which does have some specific definitions (such as the Agile Manifesto).  You're kind of suggesting Jean shouldn't be asking the question in the first place.  As Ford discovered during the development of the Model A, the more adapted you are to a particular situation, the less *adaptable* you are for future situations.  We could make everyone claim to be happy temporarily with management-defined processes and management-defined roles rather than team self organization, but not be well positioned for the future's inevitable changes.

          Since Jean already suggested some answers would be "no" (most people don't enjoy adversarial relationships), and suggested debunking their claim of being Agile may be part of the solution,  I'd check out Mike Cohn's site called http://ComparativeAgility.com .  I've been curious about this for a while.

          --mj

          On Oct 11, 2011, at 7:48 AM, Dave Rooney wrote:

           

          A very simple test:

          1) Are the company's customers delighted with the product, i.e. they actually get excited about the next version?

          2) Are the company's employees delighted with how they build the product, i.e. they can't wait to get to work in the morning?

          If you can answer 'yes' to both of those questions, the development method used is somewhat irrelevant.

          Dave Rooney | Agile Coach and Co-founder
          Westboro Systems - Agile Coaching, Training, Organizational Transformation.
          Blog | Twitter | LinkedIn


          On 2011-10-11, at 10:45 AM, Jean Richardson wrote:

           

          Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice several months ago.  Since then, there has been a change of management and the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks, meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change, (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the daily work and seems to put the “Scrum Master” (quotes intentional) in a more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.

           

          It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively within an iterative development model—but it was definitely no longer agile.  Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I’d better check my own thinking out.  I remembered a blog post I’d seen (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/) that talked about a “test” for agility.  But, when I returned to the source, it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum. 

           

          Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?

           

          --- Jean

           

          <image003.jpg>


          Jean Richardson

          Azure Gate Consulting

          ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work

           

          AzureGate.net

          (503) 788-8998

          Jean@...

           

           

           





        • Michael Mallete
          I don t think are we technically still Agile is the right question to ask. If what you are doing is fairly effective, what drives you to question the
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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            I don't think "are we technically still Agile" is the right question to ask. If what you are doing is fairly effective, what drives you to question the process? Then perhaps you can make your own checklist by then, e.g.,

            1. team members are not engaged - how to solve this?
            2. project timelines are always impossible to meet - how to solve this?
            3. the QA team is always the bottleneck - how to solve this?

            etc. 

            Then eventually, you would see that most answers can be traced back to standard Agile practices. Then again, if anything, Agile is not dogmatic. I have to agree that in the end, it's all about happy customers and motivated people.

            On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 10:45 PM, Jean Richardson <jean@...> wrote:
             

            Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice several months ago.  Since then, there has been a change of management and the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks, meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change, (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the daily work and seems to put the “Scrum Master” (quotes intentional) in a more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.

             

            It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively within an iterative development model—but it was definitely no longer agile.  Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I’d better check my own thinking out.  I remembered a blog post I’d seen (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/) that talked about a “test” for agility.  But, when I returned to the source, it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum. 

             

            Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?

             

            --- Jean

             

            gate.site.jpg


            Jean Richardson

            Azure Gate Consulting

            ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work

             

            AzureGate.net

            (503) 788-8998

            Jean@...

             

             

             


          • Michael James
            ... Oh yeah, I think it was Clinton Keith who suggested using the What we say? vs. What we do? exercise for the four values or twelve principles, perhaps
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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              On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:07 AM, Alan Dayley wrote:

              I suppose you could create a series of questions answered with "yes/no" or "1-5, 5=mostly true" that would measure agains the manifesto.  I find just asking "Do we do this?" to each point is enough for excellent conversation.

              Oh yeah, I think it was Clinton Keith who suggested using the "What we say?"  vs.  "What we do?" exercise for the four values or twelve principles, perhaps having people stand in a number line or vote anonymously.  Usually the employees actually doing the work will reveal quite a different picture than the managers claiming the company is already Agile.

              --mj
            • Bob
              +1 Have your management review Deming s 14 Principles Here s a link: http://www.box.net/shared/gl0oym53b6j0me1id5n5 Bob Schatz
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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                +1

                Have your management review Deming's 14 Principles

                Here's a link: http://www.box.net/shared/gl0oym53b6j0me1id5n5

                Bob Schatz
              • Joe
                Hi Jean, First, after thinking and working in agile for many years, I am convinced that lean-agile-scrum is the way to go. But the results we want were
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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                  Hi Jean,

                  First, after thinking and working in agile for many years, I am convinced that lean-agile-scrum is the way to go.

                  But the results we want were well-stated by Dave Rooney below.

                  I would add a few comments:
                  1. According to Peter Drucker, the main test is: Are we satisfying the customers? (as well as we might ... which is never perfectly)

                  2. Is our company appropriately profitable? (Drucker would call this a constraint. But some of us sometimes forget that it is an important constraint.)

                  3. Are the workers (and I include management in this) happy, fulfilled, satisfied, having more fun than a human being ought to have?

                  4. Is everything as beautiful and elegant as it can be? (A nod to Steve Jobs.) We might add: Are things operating in sufficient harmony with our values about work, life, people and the universe? (The easy version: Is anyone being encouraged to break any of those famous 10 suggestions from long ago? If not, then good.)

                  One might argue that items 2-4 are all necessary to achieve item #1.

                  Then, let's add this:

                  There are many ideas around lean-agile-scrum that we can use to compare to the 'present state of the company' and ask: Would not we achieve higher success if we did or tried these things?

                  In this regard, I like:
                  * Agile Manifesto & principles +1
                  * Deming +1
                  * Taiichi Ohno +1 (see: Toyota Production System)
                  * Takeuchi and Nonaka +1 (Start: The New New Product Development Game article.)
                  and many other explicators of lean-agile-scrum.

                  I am guessing your managers could stand to read Daniel Pink's book (Drive) on motivation about now. Just a guess.

                  I might use a checklist. I have one here, based on Henrik Kneiberg's: http://agileconsortium.pbworks.com/w/page/44303272/Joe%27s%20Unofficial%20Scrum%20Checklist

                  ...but frankly, getting better every day is far more important than any checklist.

                  [Note: If they don't know WHY they are doing it, they are not likely to continue doing. And not likely to do it well.]

                  This is why the Scrum impediment list is so important. And why the Retrospective is so important. They are key to the basic discipline of getting better every day. Which, by-n-by, can become like brushing teeth. Kinda boring if you don't watch out.

                  Yes, on some days we go backwards, as you saw. But on average, I think over the last 10,000 years we are getting better. Not everyone agrees. In any case, we have a lot more 'getting better' to do. 'As you from crimes would pardoned be, let your indulgence set me free.'--The Tempest.

                  Thanks,
                  Joe

                  LeanAgileTraining.com

                  PS. I don't think there is any 'widely-accepted' measure of agility. Maybe a few that are more accepted than others. For example, the Scrum-Butt or Nokia Test (google that). In any case, the key thing is to get some people to think different (Steve Jobs again) and then act. Pick your poison for those people. It just might be a single-malt.


                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Dave Rooney <daverooneyca@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > A very simple test:
                  >
                  > 1) Are the company's customers delighted with the product, i.e. they actually get excited about the next version?
                  >
                  > 2) Are the company's employees delighted with how they build the product, i.e. they can't wait to get to work in the morning?
                  >
                  > If you can answer 'yes' to both of those questions, the development method used is somewhat irrelevant.
                  >
                  > Dave Rooney | Agile Coach and Co-founder
                  > Westboro Systems - Agile Coaching, Training, Organizational Transformation.
                  > Blog | Twitter | LinkedIn
                  >
                  >
                  > On 2011-10-11, at 10:45 AM, Jean Richardson wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice several months ago. Since then, there has been a change of management and the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks, meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change, (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the daily work and seems to put the "Scrum Master" (quotes intentional) in a more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively within an iterative development model—but it was definitely no longer agile. Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I'd better check my own thinking out. I remembered a blog post I'd seen (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/) that talked about a "test" for agility. But, when I returned to the source, it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- Jean
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > <image003.jpg>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Jean Richardson
                  > >
                  > > Azure Gate Consulting
                  > >
                  > > ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > AzureGate.net
                  > >
                  > > (503) 788-8998
                  > >
                  > > Jean@...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Joe
                  Jean, I want to propose a totally different approach to addressing your problem. If I understand, the key problem is that a few managers changed, and were
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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                    Jean,

                    I want to propose a totally different approach to addressing your problem.

                    If I understand, the key problem is that a few managers changed, and were stupid. I am sure it is more than this, but this is the core.

                    So, the question is how to change their minds.

                    I don't think a checklist will get much traction with them.

                    I think the following have a better chance:

                    1. The New New Product Development Game by Takeuchi and Nonaka.
                    2. Agile Project Management with Scrum, by Schwaber.
                    3. Toyota Production System by Taiichi Ohno.
                    4. A visit from a senior coach, like Jeff Sutherland.
                    5. A bunch of 'moves' taken from Fearless Change by Rising & Manns.
                    6. Daniel Pink's Drive. With a pointed discussion: what did you learn from it?
                    7. A visit to another company that is 'doing it right'. And getting more success.

                    This is all about changing people's heads. It sounds like you have to find some people who basically agree with you (one ideally a manager too), and together "work on 'em" (the other guys...I am betting they are guys).

                    I am expecting this mind-change will take time. I bet they are pretty sure they are right. I am guessing they will have to feel some pain before they will change their ideas. But you might get lucky.

                    Does this line of discussion seem more useful to you?

                    Thanks,
                    Joe

                    LeanAgileTraining.com


                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Richardson" <jean@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice
                    > several months ago. Since then, there has been a change of management and
                    > the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks,
                    > meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change,
                    > (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the
                    > daily work and seems to put the "Scrum Master" (quotes intentional) in a
                    > more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively
                    > within an iterative development model-but it was definitely no longer agile.
                    > Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted
                    > with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I'd
                    > better check my own thinking out. I remembered a blog post I'd seen
                    > (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/)
                    > that talked about a "test" for agility. But, when I returned to the source,
                    > it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an
                    > objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- Jean
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > gate.site.jpg
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Jean Richardson
                    >
                    > Azure Gate Consulting
                    >
                    > ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > AzureGate.net
                    >
                    > (503) 788-8998
                    >
                    > Jean@...
                    >
                  • Dan Rawsthorne
                    I would simply ask the question of whether or not somebody was actually making sure the project was inspecting and adapting; were expectations being modified
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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                      I would simply ask the question of whether or not "somebody" was actually making sure the project was inspecting and adapting; were expectations being modified to conform to reality? In this case it would seem to have to be management external to the team that was doing this, so, is it happening? In particular:
                       1. Are performance expectations being modified to conform to actual performance? Is actual performance being measured in a meaningful way?
                       2. Are the project's requirements being modified to conform or adapt to Stakeholder needs and expectations? Are ALL relevant Stakeholders being consulted and "kept in the loop"?

                      This is a simple start, but should suss out major portions of the truth...

                      Dan  ;-)

                      Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST

                      Author of Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals,

                           http://www.amazon.com/dp/1461160286


                      On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jean Richardson <jean@...> wrote:
                       

                      Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice several months ago.  Since then, there has been a change of management and the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks, meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change, (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the daily work and seems to put the “Scrum Master” (quotes intentional) in a more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.

                       

                      It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively within an iterative development model—but it was definitely no longer agile.  Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I’d better check my own thinking out.  I remembered a blog post I’d seen (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/) that talked about a “test” for agility.  But, when I returned to the source, it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum. 

                       

                      Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?

                       

                      --- Jean

                       

                      gate.site.jpg


                      Jean Richardson

                      Azure Gate Consulting

                      ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work

                       

                      AzureGate.net

                      (503) 788-8998

                      Jean@...

                       

                       

                       


                    • ashish_wrt
                      1) Are they doing demo and reviews regularly and using that feedback to improve their product? 2) Is the quality of feedback in demos and reviews good? -
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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                        1) Are they doing demo and reviews regularly and using that feedback to improve their product?
                        2) Is the quality of feedback in demos and reviews good? - http://www.bringingagility.com/quality-of-feedback-is-very-important/
                        3) "Our highest priority is to satisfy the customer through early and continuous delivery
                        of valuable software." - Is that happening? Is that management's focus?
                        4) look at other statements in agile manifesto - http://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html
                        How many of these principles are being followed.

                        As others mentioned - finally- Is customer happy and is team motivated?

                        that should give you your answer.

                        Ashish
                        http://www.agilewrap.com
                        http://www.bringingagility.com

                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Richardson" <jean@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice
                        > several months ago. Since then, there has been a change of management and
                        > the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks,
                        > meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change,
                        > (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the
                        > daily work and seems to put the "Scrum Master" (quotes intentional) in a
                        > more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively
                        > within an iterative development model-but it was definitely no longer agile.
                        > Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted
                        > with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I'd
                        > better check my own thinking out. I remembered a blog post I'd seen
                        > (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/)
                        > that talked about a "test" for agility. But, when I returned to the source,
                        > it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an
                        > objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- Jean
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > gate.site.jpg
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Jean Richardson
                        >
                        > Azure Gate Consulting
                        >
                        > ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > AzureGate.net
                        >
                        > (503) 788-8998
                        >
                        > Jean@...
                        >
                      • Jean Richardson
                        See below. From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Rooney Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 7:49 AM
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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                          See below.

                           

                          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Rooney
                          Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 7:49 AM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] agile versus iterative

                           

                           

                          A very simple test:

                           

                          1)      Are the company's customers delighted with the product, i.e. they actually get excited about the next version?

                          No, they’re mostly relieved it’s finally done enough that they can use it.

                           

                          2)      Are the company's employees delighted with how they build the product, i.e. they can't wait to get to work in the morning?

                          No, they don’t seem too happy, just glad they finally got a working release out.

                           

                          If you can answer 'yes' to both of those questions, the development method used is somewhat irrelevant.

                           

                           

                          Dave Rooney | Agile Coach and Co-founder
                          Westboro Systems - Agile Coaching, Training, Organizational Transformation.
                          Blog | Twitter | LinkedIn

                           

                           

                          On 2011-10-11, at 10:45 AM, Jean Richardson wrote:



                           

                           

                          Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice several months ago.  Since then, there has been a change of management and the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks, meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change, (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the daily work and seems to put the “Scrum Master” (quotes intentional) in a more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.

                           

                          It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively within an iterative development model—but it was definitely no longer agile.  Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I’d better check my own thinking out.  I remembered a blog post I’d seen (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/) that talked about a “test” for agility.  But, when I returned to the source, it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum. 

                           

                          Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?

                           

                          --- Jean

                           

                          <image003.jpg>


                          Jean Richardson

                          Azure Gate Consulting

                          ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work

                           

                          AzureGate.net

                          (503) 788-8998

                          Jean@...

                           

                           

                           

                           

                           

                        • Jean Richardson
                          Alan, this is the direction I would go alright. When I m helping to launch a new Scrum team I do a Scrum Immersion Day with them, and in that day one key
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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                            Alan, this is the direction I would go alright.  When I’m helping to launch a new Scrum team I do a Scrum Immersion Day with them, and in that day one key theme is that the Manifesto and Principles embody agile:  Scrum is an implementation.

                             

                            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan Dayley
                            Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:07 AM
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] agile versus iterative

                             

                             

                            I am not being facetious when I suggest you look at the Agile Manifesto and its principles.  The four value statements and principles make a great "check list" of measuring how a team, department or company is doing with being Agile.

                             

                            I suppose you could create a series of questions answered with "yes/no" or "1-5, 5=mostly true" that would measure agains the manifesto.  I find just asking "Do we do this?" to each point is enough for excellent conversation.

                             

                            Alan 

                            On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jean Richardson <jean@...> wrote:

                             

                            Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice several months ago.  Since then, there has been a change of management and the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks, meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change, (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the daily work and seems to put the “Scrum Master” (quotes intentional) in a more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.

                             

                            It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively within an iterative development model—but it was definitely no longer agile.  Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I’d better check my own thinking out.  I remembered a blog post I’d seen (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/) that talked about a “test” for agility.  But, when I returned to the source, it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum. 

                             

                            Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?

                             

                            --- Jean

                             

                            gate.site.jpg


                            Jean Richardson

                            Azure Gate Consulting

                            ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work

                             

                            AzureGate.net

                            (503) 788-8998

                            Jean@...

                             

                             

                             

                             

                          • Jean Richardson
                            Michael - Thanks for this. Is should have known to look to Cohn for this kind of thinking. I ll dig in on this site. One of the things I m concerned about is
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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                              Michael –

                               

                              Thanks for this.  Is should have known to look to Cohn for this kind of thinking.  I’ll dig in on this site.

                               

                              One of the things I’m concerned about is whether the Team really can respond to change in the future.  I’m also concerned that they are being disempowered individually and collectively by the current way of working.  Much of what Scrum offers human beings seems to have been removed from the process as it has evolved.

                               

                              I’m at PNSQC this week and have initiated several conversations about leaderless groups (self-organization and self-management) and included the personal accountability piece in my own presentation on the fly today.  I just feel it’s so high team we start talking about this stuff in grounded and powerful, actionable ways.

                               

                              --- Jean

                               

                              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael James
                              Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:17 AM
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] agile versus iterative

                               

                               

                              "Does everyone say they're happy?" is a useful measurement, but I think it's not a measure of Agility, which does have some specific definitions (such as the Agile Manifesto).  You're kind of suggesting Jean shouldn't be asking the question in the first place.  As Ford discovered during the development of the Model A, the more adapted you are to a particular situation, the less *adaptable* you are for future situations.  We could make everyone claim to be happy temporarily with management-defined processes and management-defined roles rather than team self organization, but not be well positioned for the future's inevitable changes.

                               

                              Since Jean already suggested some answers would be "no" (most people don't enjoy adversarial relationships), and suggested debunking their claim of being Agile may be part of the solution,  I'd check out Mike Cohn's site called http://ComparativeAgility.com .  I've been curious about this for a while.

                               

                              --mj

                               

                              On Oct 11, 2011, at 7:48 AM, Dave Rooney wrote:



                               

                               

                              A very simple test:

                               

                              1) Are the company's customers delighted with the product, i.e. they actually get excited about the next version?

                               

                              2) Are the company's employees delighted with how they build the product, i.e. they can't wait to get to work in the morning?

                               

                              If you can answer 'yes' to both of those questions, the development method used is somewhat irrelevant.

                               

                              Dave Rooney | Agile Coach and Co-founder
                              Westboro Systems - Agile Coaching, Training, Organizational Transformation.
                              Blog | Twitter | LinkedIn

                               

                               

                              On 2011-10-11, at 10:45 AM, Jean Richardson wrote:



                               

                               

                              Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice several months ago.  Since then, there has been a change of management and the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks, meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change, (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the daily work and seems to put the “Scrum Master” (quotes intentional) in a more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.

                               

                              It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively within an iterative development model—but it was definitely no longer agile.  Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I’d better check my own thinking out.  I remembered a blog post I’d seen (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/) that talked about a “test” for agility.  But, when I returned to the source, it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum. 

                               

                              Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?

                               

                              --- Jean

                               

                              <image003.jpg>


                              Jean Richardson

                              Azure Gate Consulting

                              ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work

                               

                              AzureGate.net

                              (503) 788-8998

                              Jean@...

                               

                               

                               

                               

                               

                               

                               

                            • Jean Richardson
                              This is a government organization. There s often a lot of NIH around business guidelines like the below. I m skeptical about the NIH argument in an
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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                                This is a government organization.  There’s often a lot of NIH around business guidelines like the below.  I’m skeptical about the NIH argument in an organization which has SO MUCH influence over our lives.  I’ll spend some time with the link below.

                                 

                                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob
                                Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:30 AM
                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: agile versus iterative

                                 

                                 

                                +1

                                Have your management review Deming's 14 Principles

                                Here's a link: http://www.box.net/shared/gl0oym53b6j0me1id5n5

                                Bob Schatz

                              • Jean Richardson
                                Joe, good stuff, but let me throw this into the mix: This culture has strong faith in the great man myth. There is a belief that new initiatives last only
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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                                  Joe, good stuff, but let me throw this into the mix: 

                                   

                                  This culture has strong faith in the “great man myth.”  There is a belief that new initiatives last only as long as the champion, who must be a strong leader/manager, is in the environment.  Team members are seen as powerless and appropriately so because they cannot be trusted. What I’m beginning to consider is the necessity of a strong Scrum Master—as well as what that means.  What does the Scrum Master *really* value?

                                   

                                  From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe
                                  Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:34 AM
                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: agile versus iterative

                                   

                                   

                                  Jean,

                                  I want to propose a totally different approach to addressing your problem.

                                  If I understand, the key problem is that a few managers changed, and were stupid. I am sure it is more than this, but this is the core.

                                  So, the question is how to change their minds.

                                  I don't think a checklist will get much traction with them.

                                  I think the following have a better chance:

                                  1. The New New Product Development Game by Takeuchi and Nonaka.
                                  2. Agile Project Management with Scrum, by Schwaber.
                                  3. Toyota Production System by Taiichi Ohno.
                                  4. A visit from a senior coach, like Jeff Sutherland.
                                  5. A bunch of 'moves' taken from Fearless Change by Rising & Manns.
                                  6. Daniel Pink's Drive. With a pointed discussion: what did you learn from it?
                                  7. A visit to another company that is 'doing it right'. And getting more success.

                                  This is all about changing people's heads. It sounds like you have to find some people who basically agree with you (one ideally a manager too), and together "work on 'em" (the other guys...I am betting they are guys).

                                  I am expecting this mind-change will take time. I bet they are pretty sure they are right. I am guessing they will have to feel some pain before they will change their ideas. But you might get lucky.

                                  Does this line of discussion seem more useful to you?

                                  Thanks,
                                  Joe

                                  LeanAgileTraining.com

                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Richardson" <jean@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice
                                  > several months ago. Since then, there has been a change of management and
                                  > the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks,
                                  > meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change,
                                  > (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the
                                  > daily work and seems to put the "Scrum Master" (quotes intentional) in a
                                  > more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively
                                  > within an iterative development model-but it was definitely no longer agile.
                                  > Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted
                                  > with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I'd
                                  > better check my own thinking out. I remembered a blog post I'd seen
                                  > (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/)
                                  > that talked about a "test" for agility. But, when I returned to the source,
                                  > it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an
                                  > objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- Jean
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > gate.site.jpg
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Jean Richardson
                                  >
                                  > Azure Gate Consulting
                                  >
                                  > ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > AzureGate.net
                                  >
                                  > (503) 788-8998
                                  >
                                  > Jean@...
                                  >

                                • Jean Richardson
                                  Dan - Well, I would say, if performance is constrained to minimally sufficient software quality, the answer is yes. If requirements modification according
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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                                    Dan –

                                     

                                    Well, I would say, if “performance” is constrained to minimally sufficient software quality, the answer is “yes.”  If requirements modification according to changing stakeholder needs is constrained to skillful application of change control, the answer is “yes,” if a qualified “yes.”

                                     

                                    Having experience in both agile and plan-driven methods, I’d have to say that #1 and #2 can absolutely be done on a plan-driven (predictive model) project where change control is properly applied.  I can also say that this does not require a self-organizing team, just a compliant one.  “We have ways” to make you compliant, and as such a manager, I can get agility through strong onboarding processes, skillful and strategic “succession planning,” and frequent blood transfusions.

                                     

                                    Mark Paulk characterizes Scrum as a system of values (which if you read Richard Stacey, results in its own set of problems).  These values and the related principles, as I see it, result in human systems benefits that are really what drives agility.  My cursory analysis of the case presented below is that these human systems benefits have been extruded from the environment.  So, in short cycle releases, you get reliably get software of a minimally sufficient quality delivered by a given team.  But, I don’t *think* you get agility, and this is what I’m wrestling with in my own mind.

                                     

                                    Thanks for your comments.

                                     

                                    --- Jean

                                     

                                    From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Rawsthorne
                                    Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:36 AM
                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] agile versus iterative

                                     

                                     

                                    I would simply ask the question of whether or not "somebody" was actually making sure the project was inspecting and adapting; were expectations being modified to conform to reality? In this case it would seem to have to be management external to the team that was doing this, so, is it happening? In particular:
                                     1. Are performance expectations being modified to conform to actual performance? Is actual performance being measured in a meaningful way?
                                     2. Are the project's requirements being modified to conform or adapt to Stakeholder needs and expectations? Are ALL relevant Stakeholders being consulted and "kept in the loop"?

                                    This is a simple start, but should suss out major portions of the truth...

                                    Dan  ;-)

                                    Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST

                                    Author of Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals,

                                         http://www.amazon.com/dp/1461160286

                                     

                                    On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jean Richardson <jean@...> wrote:

                                     

                                    Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice several months ago.  Since then, there has been a change of management and the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks, meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change, (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the daily work and seems to put the “Scrum Master” (quotes intentional) in a more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.

                                     

                                    It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively within an iterative development model—but it was definitely no longer agile.  Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I’d better check my own thinking out.  I remembered a blog post I’d seen (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/) that talked about a “test” for agility.  But, when I returned to the source, it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum. 

                                     

                                    Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?

                                     

                                    --- Jean

                                     

                                    gate.site.jpg


                                    Jean Richardson

                                    Azure Gate Consulting

                                    ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work

                                     

                                    AzureGate.net

                                    (503) 788-8998

                                    Jean@...

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                  • Michael James
                                    ... While the responses have revealed a lot about people in this discussion group, I have more confidence in your intuition more than any of these responses.
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 11, 2011
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                                      On Oct 11, 2011, at 4:11 PM, Jean Richardson wrote:

                                      > So, in short cycle releases, you get reliably get software of a minimally sufficient quality delivered by a given team. But, I don’t *think* you get agility, and this is what I’m wrestling with in my own mind.

                                      While the responses have revealed a lot about people in this discussion group, I have more confidence in your intuition more than any of these responses. You've experienced an Agile environment before, and you know this isn't it.

                                      --mj
                                    • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                                      +1 to Alan s suggestion.  IIRC Cohn s assessment is more Scrum directed than Agile Manifesto/Principles directed.   ... Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Oct 12, 2011
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                                        +1 to Alan's suggestion.  IIRC Cohn's assessment is more Scrum directed than Agile Manifesto/Principles directed.
                                         
                                        -------
                                        Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                        Experienced Scrum Coach
                                        My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

                                        From: Jean Richardson <jean@...>
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 4:48 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] agile versus iterative



                                        Alan, this is the direction I would go alright.  When I’m helping to launch a new Scrum team I do a Scrum Immersion Day with them, and in that day one key theme is that the Manifesto and Principles embody agile:  Scrum is an implementation.
                                         
                                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan Dayley
                                        Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:07 AM
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] agile versus iterative
                                         
                                         
                                        I am not being facetious when I suggest you look at the Agile Manifesto and its principles.  The four value statements and principles make a great "check list" of measuring how a team, department or company is doing with being Agile.
                                         
                                        I suppose you could create a series of questions answered with "yes/no" or "1-5, 5=mostly true" that would measure agains the manifesto.  I find just asking "Do we do this?" to each point is enough for excellent conversation.
                                         
                                        Alan 
                                        On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jean Richardson <jean@...> wrote:
                                         
                                        Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice several months ago.  Since then, there has been a change of management and the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks, meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change, (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the daily work and seems to put the “Scrum Master” (quotes intentional) in a more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.
                                         
                                        It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively within an iterative development model—but it was definitely no longer agile.  Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I’d better check my own thinking out.  I remembered a blog post I’d seen (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/) that talked about a “test” for agility.  But, when I returned to the source, it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum. 
                                         
                                        Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?
                                         
                                        --- Jean
                                         
                                        gate.site.jpg

                                        Jean Richardson
                                        Azure Gate Consulting
                                        ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work
                                         
                                        (503) 788-8998
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         




                                      • Chuck B
                                        Agree with your conclusion, but what if the answer is No?  My guess is that, if the answer was Yes to both of those, then Jean never would have asked the
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Oct 12, 2011
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                                          Agree with your conclusion, but what if the answer is No? 

                                          My guess is that, if the answer was Yes to both of those, then Jean never would have asked the question she did.

                                          Both of your questions are highly subjective, so IMO, they're pretty much useless.  There are always going to be users and employees that are thrilled, and others who are not.  Then what?
                                           
                                          -------
                                          Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                          Experienced Scrum Coach
                                          My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

                                          From: Dave Rooney <daverooneyca@...>
                                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:48 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] agile versus iterative



                                          A very simple test:

                                          1) Are the company's customers delighted with the product, i.e. they actually get excited about the next version?

                                          2) Are the company's employees delighted with how they build the product, i.e. they can't wait to get to work in the morning?

                                          If you can answer 'yes' to both of those questions, the development method used is somewhat irrelevant.

                                          Dave Rooney | Agile Coach and Co-founder
                                          Westboro Systems - Agile Coaching, Training, Organizational Transformation.
                                          Blog | Twitter | LinkedIn


                                          On 2011-10-11, at 10:45 AM, Jean Richardson wrote:

                                           

                                          Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice several months ago.  Since then, there has been a change of management and the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks, meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change, (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the daily work and seems to put the “Scrum Master” (quotes intentional) in a more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.
                                           
                                          It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively within an iterative development model—but it was definitely no longer agile.  Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I’d better check my own thinking out.  I remembered a blog post I’d seen (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/) that talked about a “test” for agility.  But, when I returned to the source, it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum. 
                                           
                                          Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?
                                           
                                          --- Jean
                                           
                                          <image003.jpg>

                                          Jean Richardson
                                          Azure Gate Consulting
                                          ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work
                                           
                                          (503) 788-8998
                                           
                                           
                                           






                                        • Michael Mallete
                                          Then you start asking your 5 why s imho, subjective is not useless. It s reality. Not everything is a boolean. I think it doesn t hurt to ask simple questions
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Oct 12, 2011
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                                            Then you start asking your 5 why's

                                            imho, subjective is not useless. It's reality. Not everything is a boolean. I think it doesn't hurt to ask simple questions first. Then dive deeper as you go.

                                            On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Chuck B <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            Agree with your conclusion, but what if the answer is No? 

                                            My guess is that, if the answer was Yes to both of those, then Jean never would have asked the question she did.

                                            Both of your questions are highly subjective, so IMO, they're pretty much useless.  There are always going to be users and employees that are thrilled, and others who are not.  Then what?
                                             
                                            -------
                                            Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                            Experienced Scrum Coach
                                            My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

                                            From: Dave Rooney <daverooneyca@...>
                                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:48 AM

                                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] agile versus iterative



                                            A very simple test:

                                            1) Are the company's customers delighted with the product, i.e. they actually get excited about the next version?

                                            2) Are the company's employees delighted with how they build the product, i.e. they can't wait to get to work in the morning?

                                            If you can answer 'yes' to both of those questions, the development method used is somewhat irrelevant.

                                            Dave Rooney | Agile Coach and Co-founder
                                            Westboro Systems - Agile Coaching, Training, Organizational Transformation.
                                            Blog | Twitter | LinkedIn


                                            On 2011-10-11, at 10:45 AM, Jean Richardson wrote:

                                             

                                            Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice several months ago.  Since then, there has been a change of management and the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks, meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change, (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the daily work and seems to put the “Scrum Master” (quotes intentional) in a more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.
                                             
                                            It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively within an iterative development model—but it was definitely no longer agile.  Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I’d better check my own thinking out.  I remembered a blog post I’d seen (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/) that talked about a “test” for agility.  But, when I returned to the source, it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum. 
                                             
                                            Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?
                                             
                                            --- Jean
                                             
                                            <image003.jpg>

                                            Jean Richardson
                                            Azure Gate Consulting
                                            ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work
                                             
                                            (503) 788-8998
                                             
                                             
                                             







                                          • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                                            I m all about the 5 whys and I m ok with asking those 2 questions... It s just that the 2 questions are not a very good test of anything IMO.   ... Charles
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Oct 13, 2011
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                                              I'm all about the 5 whys and I'm ok with asking those 2 questions... It's just that the 2 questions are not a very good 'test' of anything IMO.
                                               
                                              -------
                                              Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                              Experienced Scrum Coach
                                              My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

                                              From: Michael Mallete <mrmallete@...>
                                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 12:41 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] agile versus iterative



                                              Then you start asking your 5 why's

                                              imho, subjective is not useless. It's reality. Not everything is a boolean. I think it doesn't hurt to ask simple questions first. Then dive deeper as you go.

                                              On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Chuck B <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                                               
                                              Agree with your conclusion, but what if the answer is No? 

                                              My guess is that, if the answer was Yes to both of those, then Jean never would have asked the question she did.

                                              Both of your questions are highly subjective, so IMO, they're pretty much useless.  There are always going to be users and employees that are thrilled, and others who are not.  Then what?
                                               
                                              -------
                                              Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                              Experienced Scrum Coach
                                              My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

                                              From: Dave Rooney <daverooneyca@...>
                                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:48 AM

                                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] agile versus iterative



                                              A very simple test:

                                              1) Are the company's customers delighted with the product, i.e. they actually get excited about the next version?

                                              2) Are the company's employees delighted with how they build the product, i.e. they can't wait to get to work in the morning?

                                              If you can answer 'yes' to both of those questions, the development method used is somewhat irrelevant.

                                              Dave Rooney | Agile Coach and Co-founder
                                              Westboro Systems - Agile Coaching, Training, Organizational Transformation.
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                                              On 2011-10-11, at 10:45 AM, Jean Richardson wrote:

                                               

                                              Recently I visited a team that was well on the way to strong Scrum practice several months ago.  Since then, there has been a change of management and the new management has removed team estimation, self-selection of tasks, meaningful daily Scrums, meaningful retrospectives that drive change, (perhaps more) and substituted a lot of external control that drives the daily work and seems to put the “Scrum Master” (quotes intentional) in a more or less adversarial relationship with the Team.
                                               
                                              It was clear to me that the Team was functioning at least fairly effectively within an iterative development model—but it was definitely no longer agile.  Since this came to me as a strong intuition that was potentially freighted with a lot of prejudice about the value of agile methods, I thought I’d better check my own thinking out.  I remembered a blog post I’d seen (http://www.allaboutagile.com/how-agile-are-you-take-this-42-point-test/) that talked about a “test” for agility.  But, when I returned to the source, it was clear that it was really a test of conformance to Scrum. 
                                               
                                              Before I go about the effort of writing my own, is anyone aware of an objective, method-agnostic, widely accepted measure of agility?
                                               
                                              --- Jean
                                               
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                                              Jean Richardson
                                              Azure Gate Consulting
                                              ~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work
                                               
                                              (503) 788-8998
                                               
                                               
                                               











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