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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum for OS development company

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  • RonJeffries
    Hi rroy ... ... I have done work in operating systems, compilers, implementation of relational database systems, automated psychological experiments, real-time
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 1, 2011
      Hi rroy ...

      On Sep 30, 2011, at 3:01 PM, rroy26@... wrote:

      May be his seniors are right. How can we be sure without understanding his needs and environment. 

      I have done work in operating systems, compilers, implementation of relational database systems, automated psychological experiments, real-time human reaction measurement, and a number of financial applications.

      Scrum would work for those, if people wanted to do it. So I'm pretty sure the domain isn't the issue. The people, on the other hand ... are.

      Ron Jeffries
      I'm really pissed off by what people are passing off as "agile" these days.
      You may have a red car, but that does not make it a Ferrari.
        -- Steve Hayes

    • Malcolm Anderson
      Roy I can see why you feel like the Scrum community is trying to treat all situations like a nail that scrum is a hammer for. If Scrum were a tool set, yours
      Message 2 of 23 , Oct 1, 2011
        Roy

        I can see why you feel like the Scrum community is trying to treat all situations like a nail that scrum is a hammer for.

        If Scrum were a tool set, yours would be the perfectly appropriate reaction.

        However, you will find, that the deeper you look into what Scrum is, the more you will discover that it a heuristic, not a tool set.

        Scrum starts with the assumption that everyone is doing the best they can and that there are systemic issues that are preventing them from accomplishing more. 

        From there the tools that Scrum does use (burndown charts, backlogs, story points and velocity) are diagnostic tools that allow an organization to decide what they should do next.

        --

        Malcolm Anderson
        Scrum Coach & Agile Engineer









        On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 12:01 PM, rroy26@... <rroy26@...> wrote:
         


        This is a serious problem with Scrum community. They have a hammer (Scrum) and think everything is a nail.

        May be his seniors are right. How can we be sure without understanding his needs and environment.


        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Anderson <malcolm.b.anderson@...> wrote:
        >
        > +1 to Mark's comment.
        >
        > People who have made up their minds about, something they don't want to do,
        > are rarely satisfied with any evidence that contradicts their position.
        > Human beings will go to amazing lengths before admitting they are wrong.
        >
        > If your senior has publicly stated that "Scrum won't work here" then it
        > won't work there (as long as your senior is at that company.) If you want
        > to use Scrum, you will probably need to get promoted above him, or go work
        > for another company.
        >
        > Good luck.
        >
        > --
        >
        > Malcolm Anderson
        > Scrum Coach & Agile Engineer
        >
        >
        >
        > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **

        > >
        > >
        > > Conversely what makes OS development special? Its still software, it still
        > > has users, ...
        > >
        > > Everyone thinks they're special and Scrum won't work for them. What is the
        > > person's underlying concern?
        > >
        > > Cheers
        > > Mark
        > >
        > >
        > > On Monday, September 26, 2011, Pankaj Gupta wrote:
        > >
        > >> **

        > >>
        > >>
        > >> Hi,
        > >>
        > >> My seniors says that SCRUM is not applicable for OS development companies
        > >> and it does work very well with Web based or for small product
        > >> development(s).
        > >>
        > >> I'm interested to know the names of OS development companies who
        > >> successfully implemented SCRUM.
        > >>
        > >> Thanks,
        > >> Pankaj
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        >



      • Mark Levison
        Roy (??), - the point came across as as arrogant I m sorry I was writing from a phone where its hard to be nuanced and subtle. Some thoughts: -
        Message 3 of 23 , Oct 3, 2011
          Roy (??), - the point came across as as arrogant I'm sorry I was writing from a phone where its hard to be nuanced and subtle.

          Some thoughts:
          - Scrum/Agile/Kanban et al will fail in 100% of cases when people decide a priori that it will fail. I find the many people who demand case studies at this stage are really saying I'm special and different so Scrum et al won't work for me.
          - I've never seen a software development project (even hardware) that didn't benefit from frequent feedback and opportunities to improve.
          - OS Development is hard but its still software development - which Agile Principle doesn't apply? Which practices don't apply?

          Cheers
          Mark Levison

          MarkMark Levison | Agile Pain Relief Consulting | Certified Scrum Trainer
          Agile Editor @ InfoQ | Blog | Twitter | Office: (613) 862-2538
          Recent Entries:
          Story Slicing How Small is Small Enough, Why use an Agile Coach


          On Friday, September 30, 2011, rroy26@... wrote:
           


          This is a serious problem with Scrum community. They have a hammer (Scrum) and think everything is a nail.

          May be his seniors are right. How can we be sure without understanding his needs and environment.

          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Anderson <malcolm.b.anderson@...> wrote:
          >
          > +1 to Mark's comment.
          >
          > People who have made up their minds about, something they don't want to do,
          > are rarely satisfied with any evidence that contradicts their position.
          > Human beings will go to amazing lengths before admitting they are wrong.
          >
          > If your senior has publicly stated that "Scrum won't work here" then it
          > won't work there (as long as your senior is at that company.) If you want
          > to use Scrum, you will probably need to get promoted above him, or go work
          > for another company.
          >
          > Good luck.
          >
          > --
          >
          > Malcolm Anderson
          > Scrum Coach & Agile Engineer
          >
          >
          >
          > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > Conversely what makes OS development special? Its still software, it still
          > > has users, ...
          > >
          > > Everyone thinks they're special and Scrum won't work for them. What is the
          > > person's underlying concern?
          > >
          > > Cheers
          > > Mark
          > >
          > >
          > > On Monday, September 26, 2011, Pankaj Gupta wrote:
          > >
          > >> **
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> Hi,
          > >>
          > >> My seniors says that SCRUM is not applicable for OS development companies
          > >> and it does work very well with Web based or for small product
          > >> development(s).
          > >>
          > >> I'm interested to know the names of OS development companies who
          > >> successfully implemented SCRUM.
          > >>
          > >> Thanks,
          > >> Pankaj
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          >

        • Seyit Caglar Abbasoglu
          From what I ve seen, as a project/domain gets harder, that project benefits more from early/frequent feedback and continuous improvement. To setup and persist
          Message 4 of 23 , Oct 3, 2011
            From what I've seen, as a project/domain gets harder, that project benefits more from early/frequent feedback and continuous improvement. To setup and persist an environment to maximize those benefits however, always requires patience, determination, courage and trust. IMO that's where most people fail (especially without proper guidance).
          • JoseS
            Pankaj, In my experience the challenge with Scrum is the user story. Non-application development efforts see them as artificial because of the emphasis on the
            Message 5 of 23 , Oct 3, 2011
              Pankaj,

              In my experience the challenge with Scrum is the user story. Non-application development efforts see them as artificial because of the emphasis on the user ("as a user, I want to ... so that ...") There's no rule that says you MUST do it that way. The functionality can be decomposed and Scrum applied with no issues. The other push back is the short nature of the sprints. Again, decomposing the functionality will allow Scrum to be used.

              With that said, it is not always a welcomed approach. If you have a product development methodology (Scrum mixes both product and project methodologies) you want to use there's an Agile domain-agnostic approach that has been used in multiple domains (hardware, software when waterfall was required/forced/demanded by management, defense missile engineering, biomedical research and device development, education, education, manufacturing, construction, etc).

              It originated at Intel for their semiconductor design projects (see Timm Esque's book "No Surprises Project Management" for the story). It is based on commitments made by the team members (no different from Scrum) and regular planning and review cycles. Timm, his business partner, and I have agreed to call it Commitment-Based Project Management or CBPM for its focus on commitments.

              If interested let me know and I can provide details. You can also go to Timm's website (http://ensemblemc.com/) or my website (http://www.pmlead.com). There's also a LinkedIn group, "Project Acceleration thru Commitment-Based Project Management" where many PMs gather to exchange ideas.

              All the best,

              Jose Solera, PMP, CSM, CSPO

              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Pankaj Gupta <synopsys_pankaj@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi,
              >
              > My seniors says that SCRUM is not�applicable�for OS development companies and it does work very well with Web based or for small product development(s).
              >
              > I'm interested to know the names of OS development companies who successfully implemented SCRUM.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Pankaj
              >
            • jsutherland
              Your seniors don t know what is going on in the industry. Palm, as only one example, used Scrum for new OS development for the past five years. Jeff Sutherland
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 4, 2011
                Your seniors don't know what is going on in the industry. Palm, as only one example, used Scrum for new OS development for the past five years.

                Jeff Sutherland
                Co-Creator of Scrum

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Pankaj Gupta <synopsys_pankaj@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi,
                >
                > My seniors says that SCRUM is not applicable for OS development companies and it does work very well with Web based or for small product development(s).
                >
                > I'm interested to know the names of OS development companies who successfully implemented SCRUM.
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Pankaj
                >
              • Jack Harvey
                Jeff, Any good contacts with companies doing software, firmware and hardware using SCRUM? Cheers, Jack Harvey Contact me here: Email - jack@zoomommy.com Cell -
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 4, 2011
                  Jeff,
                   
                  Any good contacts with companies doing software, firmware and hardware using SCRUM?
                   
                  Cheers,

                  Jack Harvey
                   
                  Contact me here:
                  Email - jack@...
                  Cell - 865.244.8710
                   
                  Connect with me here:
                   
                   
                   
                  -------- Original Message --------
                  Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum for OS development company
                  From: "jsutherland" <jeff.sutherland@...>
                  Date: Tue, October 04, 2011 3:23 pm
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com

                   
                  Your seniors don't know what is going on in the industry. Palm, as only one example, used Scrum for new OS development for the past five years.

                  Jeff Sutherland
                  Co-Creator of Scrum

                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Pankaj Gupta <synopsys_pankaj@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > My seniors says that SCRUM is not applicable for OS development companies and it does work very well with Web based or for small product development(s).
                  >
                  > I'm interested to know the names of OS development companies who successfully implemented SCRUM.
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Pankaj
                  >

                • woynam
                  And look where Palm and PalmOS/WebOS are now! ;-) Joking aside, I would not use Palm as an example of the successful use of Scrum. They basically screwed
                  Message 8 of 23 , Oct 5, 2011
                    And look where Palm and PalmOS/WebOS are now! ;-)

                    Joking aside, I would not use Palm as an example of the "successful" use of Scrum. They basically screwed around for years with numerous Linux-based OS's, and the world passed them by.

                    Mark

                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "jsutherland" <jeff.sutherland@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Your seniors don't know what is going on in the industry. Palm, as only one example, used Scrum for new OS development for the past five years.
                    >
                    > Jeff Sutherland
                    > Co-Creator of Scrum
                    >
                    > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Pankaj Gupta <synopsys_pankaj@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi,
                    > >
                    > > My seniors says that SCRUM is not applicable for OS development companies and it does work very well with Web based or for small product development(s).
                    > >
                    > > I'm interested to know the names of OS development companies who successfully implemented SCRUM.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks,
                    > > Pankaj
                    > >
                    >
                  • Alan Dayley
                    I have experience in those areas, Jack. Should we start a new thread or email directly? Alan
                    Message 9 of 23 , Oct 5, 2011
                      I have experience in those areas, Jack. Should we start a new thread or email directly?

                      Alan

                      On Oct 4, 2011, at 2:45 PM, "Jack Harvey" <jack@...> wrote:

                       

                      Jeff,
                       
                      Any good contacts with companies doing software, firmware and hardware using SCRUM?
                       
                      Cheers,

                      Jack Harvey
                       
                      Contact me here:
                      Email - jack@...
                      Cell - 865.244.8710
                       
                      Connect with me here:
                       
                       
                       
                      -------- Original Message --------
                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum for OS development company
                      From: "jsutherland" <jeff.sutherland@...>
                      Date: Tue, October 04, 2011 3:23 pm
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com

                       
                      Your seniors don't know what is going on in the industry. Palm, as only one example, used Scrum for new OS development for the past five years.

                      Jeff Sutherland
                      Co-Creator of Scrum

                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Pankaj Gupta <synopsys_pankaj@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi,
                      >
                      > My seniors says that SCRUM is not applicable for OS development companies and it does work very well with Web based or for small product development(s).
                      >
                      > I'm interested to know the names of OS development companies who successfully implemented SCRUM.
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      > Pankaj
                      >

                    • Michael Yip
                      Assuming you are verse with Scrum, experienced in software development and use case approach to develop product/solution, I suggest you have a number of candid
                      Message 10 of 23 , Oct 5, 2011

                        Assuming you are verse with Scrum, experienced in software development and use case approach to develop product/solution, I suggest you have a number of candid conversations with your seniors and ask why won't it work. Keep asking why. I can guarantee all the answers contain "but" and they will come full circle back to poor leadership, culture, people, and organization.... nothing whatsoever to do with Scrum.

                        Michael



                        From: Pankaj Gupta <synopsys_pankaj@...>
                        To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 3:55 AM
                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum for OS development company

                         
                        OS = Operating System.

                        -Pankaj


                        From: Sean Corfield <seancorfield@...>
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, 28 September 2011 10:31 PM
                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum for OS development company

                         
                        On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Pankaj Gupta <synopsys_pankaj@...> wrote:
                        My seniors says that SCRUM is not applicable for OS development companies and it does work very well with Web based or for small product development(s).

                        OS = Operating System? Open Source? Off Shore?
                        -- 
                        Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
                        An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
                        World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
                        Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/

                        "Perfection is the enemy of the good."
                        -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)




                      • Adam Sroka
                        OS development is hard, and Scrum is not a silver bullet. There are most likely several problems you need to solve, and it is likely that Scrum solves some but
                        Message 11 of 23 , Oct 5, 2011

                          OS development is hard, and Scrum is not a silver bullet. There are most likely several problems you need to solve, and it is likely that Scrum solves some but not all of them.

                          However, it does not follow that Scrum will not work for you. You need to examine what you are doing and find small changes that will improve it, with or without Scrum.

                          On Sep 27, 2011 6:14 AM, "Pankaj Gupta" <synopsys_pankaj@...> wrote:
                          > Hi,
                          >
                          > My seniors says that SCRUM is not applicable for OS development companies and it does work very well with Web based or for small product development(s).
                          >
                          > I'm interested to know the names of OS development companies who successfully implemented SCRUM.
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          > Pankaj
                        • extremeprogrammer
                          I haven t done OS development. I have done systems programming on a 13 year old system with about 10 million lines of code. I m not sure if that s similar, but
                          Message 12 of 23 , Oct 5, 2011
                            I haven't done OS development. I have done systems programming on a 13 year old system with about 10 million lines of code. I'm not sure if that's similar, but I can't see any reason why Scrum would not work there.

                            I'd be interested to know which parts of Scrum are problematic for your seniors, e.g.

                            * Inspect / Adapt cycle
                            * Timeboxed iterations
                            * Small teams
                            * etc.

                            Regards,

                            Lance

                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Pankaj Gupta <synopsys_pankaj@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi,
                            >
                            > My seniors says that SCRUM is not applicable for OS development companies and it does work very well with Web based or for small product development(s).
                            >
                            > I'm interested to know the names of OS development companies who successfully implemented SCRUM.
                            >
                            > Thanks,
                            > Pankaj
                            >
                          • jsutherland
                            A partner of mine was asked to take a look at a 10 million lines of code system that was difficult to maintain. They determined that the functionality was so
                            Message 13 of 23 , Oct 6, 2011
                              A partner of mine was asked to take a look at a 10 million lines of code system that was difficult to maintain. They determined that the functionality was so limited it actually needed only 100,000 lines of code. So they dumped 9,900,000 lines of code that was implemented in India over many years at high cost.

                              That's what happens when you look at these things from a Scrum point of view.

                              Jeff Sutherland

                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "extremeprogrammer" <LanceWalton@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I haven't done OS development. I have done systems programming on a 13 year old system with about 10 million lines of code. I'm not sure if that's similar, but I can't see any reason why Scrum would not work there.
                              >
                              > I'd be interested to know which parts of Scrum are problematic for your seniors, e.g.
                              >
                              > * Inspect / Adapt cycle
                              > * Timeboxed iterations
                              > * Small teams
                              > * etc.
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              >
                              > Lance
                              >
                              > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Pankaj Gupta <synopsys_pankaj@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi,
                              > >
                              > > My seniors says that SCRUM is not applicable for OS development companies and it does work very well with Web based or for small product development(s).
                              > >
                              > > I'm interested to know the names of OS development companies who successfully implemented SCRUM.
                              > >
                              > > Thanks,
                              > > Pankaj
                              > >
                              >
                            • Steven
                              I know there are people developing OS kernel modules with TDD. I don t see why Scrum cannot apply in such case.
                              Message 14 of 23 , Oct 12, 2011
                                I know there are people developing OS kernel modules with TDD. I don't see why Scrum cannot apply in such case.

                                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Pankaj Gupta <synopsys_pankaj@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi,
                                >
                                > My seniors says that SCRUM is not applicable for OS development companies and it does work very well with Web based or for small product development(s).
                                >
                                > I'm interested to know the names of OS development companies who successfully implemented SCRUM.
                                >
                                > Thanks,
                                > Pankaj
                                >
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