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When daily scrum turns into reporting

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  • pctnmrk
    Any ideas about how to stop the Daily Scrum turning into a reporting session. I guess the obvious one is to stop the management coming to the stand-ups but
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 28, 2011
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      Any ideas about how to stop the Daily Scrum turning into a reporting session.
      I guess the obvious one is to stop the 'management' coming to the stand-ups but this hasn't always been possible. We've ended up having 2 scrums, the reporting scrum and a proper scrum after that! Does anybody else have similar experiences?
    • Wouter Lagerweij
      I ve had good results simply having a token (usually a little stress-ball, or similar) being passed around through the team, whoever has the token talks, and
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 28, 2011
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        I've had good results simply having a token (usually a little stress-ball, or similar) being passed around through the team, whoever has the token talks, and passes it to a random other teammember when he's done. This avoids 'going around the circle', and certainly avoids a single person saying 'thanks you X, Y you're next'.

        Management should be welcome, I think, and should also be able to talk (pigs and chickens be damned), but the Scrum Master should be strong enough to divert any undue pressure/changes in that situation.

        If management wants very regular updates, you might want to consider a scrum-of-scrum type approach, where the SM would have a stand-up with management (along with representatives from other teams, perhaps?). That way, there would be less reason for them to need updates directly from the team members.

        If you actually have a situation where the team is unable to perform and talk normally when a manager is around, I'd say you have a big problem in mutual trust. I can't give advice for that, since the root cause is not known to me, but I would spend some time looking into that...

        Wouter

        On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 10:39 AM, pctnmrk <pctnmrk@...> wrote:
         

        Any ideas about how to stop the Daily Scrum turning into a reporting session.
        I guess the obvious one is to stop the 'management' coming to the stand-ups but this hasn't always been possible. We've ended up having 2 scrums, the reporting scrum and a proper scrum after that! Does anybody else have similar experiences?




        --
        Wouter Lagerweij         | wouter@...
      • Alan Dayley
        - Train the people attending on their expected actions during the meeting. If that means training the managers, do it. - Discipline during the meeting to meet
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 28, 2011
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          - Train the people attending on their expected actions during the meeting.  If that means training the managers, do it.
          - Discipline during the meeting to meet the goal and follow expectations.
          - Ask people to follow the trained actions.
          - Ask those who repeatedly don't follow the meeting expectations to refrain from attending.

          Alan 

          On Sep 28, 2011, at 1:39 AM, "pctnmrk" <pctnmrk@...> wrote:

           

          Any ideas about how to stop the Daily Scrum turning into a reporting session.
          I guess the obvious one is to stop the 'management' coming to the stand-ups but this hasn't always been possible. We've ended up having 2 scrums, the reporting scrum and a proper scrum after that! Does anybody else have similar experiences?

        • mcleaper
          ... Absolutely NOT. If you are not a member of the team you do not speak during the stand-up meeting. Management as stakeholders should be working with the
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 28, 2011
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            > Management should be welcome, I think, and should also be able to talk (pigs
            > and chickens be damned), but the Scrum Master should be strong enough to
            > divert any undue pressure/changes in that situation.

            Absolutely NOT. If you are not a member of the team you do not speak during the stand-up meeting. Management as stakeholders should be working with the PO and the PO with the team to resolve issues and response to queries but not during the stand-up meeting. Institutionalizing bad practices can't lead to anything good.

            We have the same problem with my team turning the daily stand-up into a status meeting. At the retrospective we recognized it was an issue and now we try to make a concerted effort to frame our input with the context of what do the others on the team want to know and what technical concepts / hurtles am I facing in today work. We admit that on most days it's not that deep but it has helped us.

            My 2 cents
            Mike


            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Wouter Lagerweij <wouter@...> wrote:
            >
            > I've had good results simply having a token (usually a little stress-ball,
            > or similar) being passed around through the team, whoever has the token
            > talks, and passes it to a random other teammember when he's done. This
            > avoids 'going around the circle', and certainly avoids a single person
            > saying 'thanks you X, Y you're next'.
            >
            > Management should be welcome, I think, and should also be able to talk (pigs
            > and chickens be damned), but the Scrum Master should be strong enough to
            > divert any undue pressure/changes in that situation.
            >
            > If management wants very regular updates, you might want to consider a
            > scrum-of-scrum type approach, where the SM would have a stand-up with
            > management (along with representatives from other teams, perhaps?). That
            > way, there would be less reason for them to need updates directly from the
            > team members.
            >
            > If you actually have a situation where the team is unable to perform and
            > talk normally when a manager is around, I'd say you have a big problem in
            > mutual trust. I can't give advice for that, since the root cause is not
            > known to me, but I would spend some time looking into that...
            >
            > Wouter
            >
            > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 10:39 AM, pctnmrk <pctnmrk@...> wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > Any ideas about how to stop the Daily Scrum turning into a reporting
            > > session.
            > > I guess the obvious one is to stop the 'management' coming to the stand-ups
            > > but this hasn't always been possible. We've ended up having 2 scrums, the
            > > reporting scrum and a proper scrum after that! Does anybody else have
            > > similar experiences?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > Wouter Lagerweij | wouter@...
            > http://www.lagerweij.com | @wouterla <http://twitter.com/#!/wouterla>
            >
          • Michael Vizdos
            [From the Chicken and Pig guy (smile)] For this type of situation, read over the rest of the advice (it is good stuff!). Really try to focus on the three
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 29, 2011
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              [From the Chicken and Pig guy (smile)]

              For this type of situation, read over the rest of the advice (it is good stuff!). 

              Really try to focus on the three questions, and remember the team is [should] be working together collocated during the day, so details can be worked on then.

              Try these three questions, and only ask and answer these:

              1) What have you DONE since the last standup?
              2) What are you going to DO before the next standup?
              3) What are your IMPEDIMENTS?

              Think about the wording above.  DONE means completed.. not in progress.  DO is committing.  If DONE and DO cannot be done, there is an IMPEDIMENT. 

              Try it.  It's effective and yet so simple.  Especially when teams are floundering [possibly].

              Thank you,

              - Mike Vizdos

               And now all of the different the ways you can connect with me:

                www.michaelvizdos.com
                www.implementingscrum.com
               @mvizdos on twitter
               www.facebook.com/vizdosenterprises
               A  member of www.AgileRenovation.com


              On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Wouter Lagerweij <wouter@...> wrote:
               

              I've had good results simply having a token (usually a little stress-ball, or similar) being passed around through the team, whoever has the token talks, and passes it to a random other teammember when he's done. This avoids 'going around the circle', and certainly avoids a single person saying 'thanks you X, Y you're next'.


              Management should be welcome, I think, and should also be able to talk (pigs and chickens be damned), but the Scrum Master should be strong enough to divert any undue pressure/changes in that situation.

              If management wants very regular updates, you might want to consider a scrum-of-scrum type approach, where the SM would have a stand-up with management (along with representatives from other teams, perhaps?). That way, there would be less reason for them to need updates directly from the team members.

              If you actually have a situation where the team is unable to perform and talk normally when a manager is around, I'd say you have a big problem in mutual trust. I can't give advice for that, since the root cause is not known to me, but I would spend some time looking into that...

              Wouter


              On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 10:39 AM, pctnmrk <pctnmrk@...> wrote:
               

              Any ideas about how to stop the Daily Scrum turning into a reporting session.
              I guess the obvious one is to stop the 'management' coming to the stand-ups but this hasn't always been possible. We've ended up having 2 scrums, the reporting scrum and a proper scrum after that! Does anybody else have similar experiences?




              --
              Wouter Lagerweij         | wouter@...


            • Wouter Lagerweij
              ... No offence meant! :-) Love the comics... Wouter -- Wouter Lagerweij | wouter@lagerweij.com http://www.lagerweij.com | @wouterla
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 29, 2011
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                On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Michael Vizdos <mvizdos@...> wrote:
                 

                [From the Chicken and Pig guy (smile)]

                No offence meant! :-)  

                Love the comics...

                Wouter

                --
                Wouter Lagerweij         | wouter@...
              • David Starr
                These 3 questions are a nice way to get started creating effective daily Scrums, but are by no means required. The Daily Scrum is an inspect/adapt opportunity
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 29, 2011
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                  These 3 questions are a nice way to get started creating effective daily Scrums, but are by no means required. The Daily Scrum is an inspect/adapt opportunity for the Development Team which results in a plan for the next 24 hours. All activity focuses on creating that daily plan, for and by the Development Team.

                  David Starr
                  Scrum.orgImproving the Profession of Software Development
                  Blog: elegantcode.com | @elegantcoder




                  On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Wouter Lagerweij <wouter@...> wrote:
                   

                  On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Michael Vizdos <mvizdos@...> wrote:
                   

                  [From the Chicken and Pig guy (smile)]

                  No offence meant! :-)  

                  Love the comics...

                  Wouter

                  --
                  Wouter Lagerweij         | wouter@...


                • Wouter Lagerweij
                  Hi Mike, ... If the organisation is healthy, a manager speaking during a stand-up will not be a problem. And it can be a valuable way for the team to gain more
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 29, 2011
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                    Hi Mike,

                    On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 3:43 AM, mcleaper <mcleaper@...> wrote:
                     

                    > Management should be welcome, I think, and should also be able to talk (pigs
                    > and chickens be damned), but the Scrum Master should be strong enough to
                    > divert any undue pressure/changes in that situation.

                    Absolutely NOT. If you are not a member of the team you do not speak during the stand-up meeting. Management as stakeholders should be working with the PO and the PO with the team to resolve issues and response to queries but not during the stand-up meeting. Institutionalising bad practices can't lead to anything good.

                    If the organisation is healthy, a manager speaking during a stand-up will not be a problem. And it can be a valuable way for the team to gain more context on their project and place in the organisation. In a less-than healthy organisation, you will run into problems, especially if the visitors try to mess with priorities. Then, the scrum master should intervene. Preferably not by excluding the visitor from the stand-up, but by being inclusive but pointing out the rules (PO owns prio is a good rule). 
                     
                    We have the same problem with my team turning the daily stand-up into a status meeting. At the retrospective we recognized it was an issue and now we try to make a concerted effort to frame our input with the context of what do the others on the team want to know and what technical concepts / hurtles am I facing in today work. We admit that on most days it's not that deep but it has helped us.

                    Sounds like a great way of doing it, especially since the team came up with it themselves!

                    Wouter
                     
                    --
                    Wouter Lagerweij         | wouter@...
                  • Michael Vizdos
                    It s OK.... some people hate them. I tend to like them and the conversations it helps start. Because they do ... Thank you, - Mike Vizdos And now all of the
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 29, 2011
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                      It's OK.... some people hate them.

                      I tend to like them and the conversations it helps start.  Because they do :).

                      Thank you,

                      - Mike Vizdos

                       And now all of the different the ways you can connect with me:

                        www.michaelvizdos.com
                        www.implementingscrum.com
                       @mvizdos on twitter
                       www.facebook.com/vizdosenterprises
                       A  member of www.AgileRenovation.com


                      On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Wouter Lagerweij <wouter@...> wrote:
                       

                      On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Michael Vizdos <mvizdos@...> wrote:
                       

                      [From the Chicken and Pig guy (smile)]

                      No offence meant! :-)  

                      Love the comics...

                      Wouter

                      --
                      Wouter Lagerweij         | wouter@...


                    • rroy26@rocketmail.com
                      How are reporting sessions different than standard scrum sessions. Are u covering something else than standard 3 questions. One of the reason, as a manager, I
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 29, 2011
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                        How are reporting sessions different than standard scrum sessions. Are u covering something else than standard 3 questions.

                        One of the reason, as a manager, I like Scrum is now I get status update everyday without asking. Scrum provides daily level visibility. Earlier I used get status on ad hoc or weekly basis, asking for daily status would have been considered micro management.


                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "pctnmrk" <pctnmrk@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Any ideas about how to stop the Daily Scrum turning into a reporting session.
                        > I guess the obvious one is to stop the 'management' coming to the stand-ups but this hasn't always been possible. We've ended up having 2 scrums, the reporting scrum and a proper scrum after that! Does anybody else have similar experiences?
                        >
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