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RE: [scrumdevelopment] FW: [XP] re Extreme BS

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  • Bryan Zarnett
    Does it not seem that more people find it important to get to CMM Level X, then to actual get a working development process going in their environment --
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 24 7:12 AM
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      Does it not seem that more people find it important to
      get to CMM Level X, then to actual get a working
      development process going in their environment --
      adaptive to their people and corporate culture.

      Just an observation.

      --- Mike Cohn <mike@...> wrote:
      > Great points, Mike.
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks for posting it over here. I'm on the xp list
      > but it's too noisy
      > for me to read much of it.
      >
      >
      >
      > --Mike
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
      > Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 12:25 AM
      > To: Scrumdevelopment
      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] FW: [XP] re Extreme BS
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > All,
      >
      > I know most of you are in the XP list but I wanted
      > to forward this
      > note here because of the never-ending futile quest
      > of matching
      > agile processes to a CMM level,
      >
      > - Mike
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
      > Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 8:36 PM
      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [XP] re Extreme BS
      >
      >
      >
      > Forrest uttered in a pompous tone:
      > > I will only say that while some XPer were still in
      > diapers I was
      > > discussing structured systems analysis and design
      > process flaws with
      > > Grace Hopper. While many a xper were learning to
      > walk I was being
      > > asked to describe the merits of a new coding
      > methodology called,
      > > oddly enough OO. In terms of recent process,
      > gaining the FDA approval
      > > of the software development process for a fully
      > automated drug
      > > manufacturing process at more then one
      > pharmaceutical company, and
      > > three of the largest .com companies, lets me
      > think I know a thing or
      > > two about a thing or two... besides, feeling realy
      > old right now :)
      >
      > Forrest:
      >
      > Very impressive... However, I see a lot of
      > professional experience
      > but no "agile" experience i.e. your resume doesn't
      > say: practiced XP
      > or for 3 years or Scrum for 5 years.
      >
      > More seriously, to make your time worthwhile let me
      > suggest the
      > following:
      >
      > tell us specific things about your project so
      > that we
      > can understand why it failed
      >
      > What XP practices were you following? What were the
      > problems? Why was
      > the project unsuccessful? Why do you attribute its
      > failure to XP? etc.
      >
      > Forrest uttered in a pompous tone:
      > > Honestly my hands on experience with XP has proven
      > to bring a
      > > software development house to level 0 CMM. And if
      > you don't know what
      > > CMM is then I pity the fool that pairs with you.
      > >
      > > Not that it can't work, it must be replaced.
      >
      > XP is a quite disciplined approach. It requires
      > commitment to its
      > rules and practices. However, I think Agile
      > Processes like XP, and
      > the concepts of the CMM process framework are
      > orthogonal.
      >
      > XP is a self-organizing agile process not a
      > "repeatable and defined"
      > Taylor-like mechanistic process. Quite frankly the
      > CMM grade obtained
      > for defined sequenced step-wise processes,
      > documentation, committees and
      > roles is completely irrelevant to the goals of XP
      > and Scrum which are:
      >
      > * Business Value delivered as Software to
      > increase
      > Customer Satisfaction (we care about our
      > customers best interests)
      > * Human comfort for the members of the team
      > (we care about people)
      > * Software Quality measured in terms of the
      > satisfaction of our
      > customers needs as delivered by the software
      > we produce (we care
      > about the software we produce)
      >
      > To achieve these goals, XP relies on the application
      > of
      > organizational patterns, the XP practices, to
      > generate the day-to-day
      > process. For example, Stand-Up meetings, Continuous
      > Integration,
      > Testing Driven Development, and On-Site Customer,
      > generate most
      > of the daily work. Pairs then self-organize to do
      > any work that
      > is required to accomplish their goals. This is
      > different
      > than blindly following a process. Therefore in XP,
      > the
      > process is a second order effect and people and its
      > interactions
      > driven by the XP patterns are the first order
      > effect. See:
      > http://www.agilemanifesto.org for more on this.
      >
      > So trying to attach CMM grades to XP or Scrum is
      > flawed. Instead, of
      > how well-organized, how well-documented your project
      > is, or how well
      > it follows a "defined and repeatable process" you
      > should
      > ask how much business value was delivered to the
      > customer, how
      > well your developers feel working for the project,
      > and how
      > good your software is in terms of meeting the needs
      > of you
      > customer.
      >
      > In my experience, if you follow the practices
      > faithfully and correctly
      > and your team has an appropriate skill level to
      > operate in the project,
      > then XP works most of the time,
      >
      > - Mike
      >
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    • Laurent Bossavit
      ... Nobody goes there anymore, it s always too crowded.
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 25 7:54 AM
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        > Thanks for posting it over here. I'm on the xp list but it's too noisy
        > for me to read much of it.

        Nobody goes there anymore, it's always too crowded.
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