Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [scrumdevelopment] How do we enforce the team to run CMMI process without authority?

Expand Messages
  • Sameh Zeid
    In CMMI, the Software Engineering Process Group (SEPG) is in-charge of process improvement instead of empowering the teams to arrive at their own process. The
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 2, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      In CMMI, the Software Engineering Process Group (SEPG) is in-charge of
      process improvement instead of empowering the teams to arrive at their
      own process. The SEPG facilitate the creation of the defined process
      that should be followed by various teams.

      From my view CMMI disregards the empiricism of the software process and
      stress on defining the software process.

      Sameh
    • Dan Rawsthorne
      Yes, you can put the CMMI constraints in as part of Done for each individual Item. And, as George says, CMMI Level 5 means that the team is improving itself,
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 3, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Yes, you can put the CMMI constraints in as part of "Done" for each individual Item. And, as George says, CMMI Level 5 means that the team is improving itself, so you need to put that in as part of the process - probably tacking it onto the existing Retrospective process that scrum provides.

        Dan  ;-)

        Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST

        Author of Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals,

             http://www.amazon.com/dp/1461160286



        On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 6:26 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
         

        Joshua,

        One thing to consider is that CMMI level 5 is "Optimizing." That means
        that you're measuring your process and making adjustments accordingly.
        If your process is a flat "the team shall work this way" then you're
        probably doing a lousy job at optimizing. If only those at the top are
        choosing how to improve the measures, then improvement is much slower.
        Along with that, such enterprises often choose the wrong thing to
        measure, and while their numbers go up, their success may not.

        CMMI level 5 does NOT imply that you're doing a good job.

        - George



        On 9/3/11 1:08 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
        >
        >
        > Thanks Dan,
        >
        > This is well said. I am getting the grasp of it now. So I guess from
        > your explanation the management manage the strategies whilst the
        > development team manage the tactics. CMIIW. As part of the strategy, the
        > team must follow the CMMI constraints. Can we put this CMMI constraints
        > as a definition of "Done"? So the function or product is not deemed as
        > "Done" if it is not within CMMI constraints. Please advise.
        >
        > Kindest regards,
        > Joshua.
        >
        > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Dan Rawsthorne
        > <dan.rawsthorne@... <mailto:dan.rawsthorne@...>>

        > wrote:
        >
        > __
        >
        > Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given,
        > like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI
        > constraints, and they figure out how to meet them. That's
        > self-organization. You micromanage the product (including the
        > constraints, which are part of the product), and don't micromanage
        > the team. It's not anarchy, or a self-directed team. Direction is
        > given, micromanagement is not.
        >
        > Dan ;-)
        >
        > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST
        >
        > Author of /Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals/
        >
        >
        > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Joshua Partogi
        > <joshua.java@... <mailto:joshua.java@...>> wrote:
        >
        > __
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        >
        > So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure
        > that the CMMI processes are run and employed by the team without
        > telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed. Has
        > anyone here any experience being in a CMMI L5 organization
        > running Scrum?
        >
        > Thanks heaps for the suggestions.

        --
        ----------------------------------------------------------
        * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
        Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
        Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
        ----------------------------------------------------------


      • gopinath
        In my view if Scrum and other agile practices are fully implemented in letter and in spirit, the CMMI requirements are not a constraint at all. This is
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 4, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          In my view if Scrum and other agile practices are fully implemented in letter and in spirit, the CMMI requirements are not a constraint at all.
          This is especially true for all the CMMI Process Areas directly applicable to projects i.e. project management and engineering related areas.
          If you tell the project team that you need to do certain things just to satisfy the CMMI requirements, they may consider it as a drudgery and some may even get demotivated. Instead "Done" can be specified in non-CMMI terms something like - coded, peer reviewed, unit tested, integrated and documented.
          However there are certain CMMI process areas which needs to be implemented at an organizational level like - Organizational Process Focus, Organizational Process Definition, Organizational Process Performance,Training etc. - which agile do not explicitly address. But these are enabling process areas and are not in conflict with agile.
          The problem arises when the CMMI Lead Appraiser is not able to interpret and map agile practices to CMMI requirements and starts expecting some non-value added practices and documentation to be put in place. Therefore it is in the interest of the organization to engage a Lead Appraiser who is well versed in both CMMI and Agile.

          Recently I read a very useful book :
          "Integrating CMMI and Agile Development: Case Studies and Proven Techniques for Faster Performance Improvement" by Paul E. McMahon.
          http://www.amazon.com/Integrating-CMMI-Agile-Development-Performance/dp/0321714105
          I have posted the summary of this book at
          http://bookwormsrecos.blogspot.com/2011/02/integrating-cmmi-and-agile-development.html

          Hope this will help in better understanding of implementing agile in a CMMI compliant organization.

          Gopinath
          http://in.linkedin.com/in/gopinathr


          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Dan Rawsthorne <dan.rawsthorne@...> wrote:
          >
          > Yes, you can put the CMMI constraints in as part of "Done" for each
          > individual Item. And, as George says, CMMI Level 5 means that the team is
          > improving itself, so you need to put that in as part of the process -
          > probably tacking it onto the existing Retrospective process that scrum
          > provides.
          >
          > Dan ;-)
          >
          > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST
          >
          > Author of *Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals,*
          >
          > http://www.amazon.com/dp/1461160286
          >
          >
          > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 6:26 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...>wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > Joshua,
          > >
          > > One thing to consider is that CMMI level 5 is "Optimizing." That means
          > > that you're measuring your process and making adjustments accordingly.
          > > If your process is a flat "the team shall work this way" then you're
          > > probably doing a lousy job at optimizing. If only those at the top are
          > > choosing how to improve the measures, then improvement is much slower.
          > > Along with that, such enterprises often choose the wrong thing to
          > > measure, and while their numbers go up, their success may not.
          > >
          > > CMMI level 5 does NOT imply that you're doing a good job.
          > >
          > > - George
          > >
          > >
          > > On 9/3/11 1:08 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Thanks Dan,
          > > >
          > > > This is well said. I am getting the grasp of it now. So I guess from
          > > > your explanation the management manage the strategies whilst the
          > > > development team manage the tactics. CMIIW. As part of the strategy, the
          > > > team must follow the CMMI constraints. Can we put this CMMI constraints
          > > > as a definition of "Done"? So the function or product is not deemed as
          > > > "Done" if it is not within CMMI constraints. Please advise.
          > > >
          > > > Kindest regards,
          > > > Joshua.
          > > >
          > > > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Dan Rawsthorne
          > > > <dan.rawsthorne@... <mailto:dan.rawsthorne@...>>
          > >
          > > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > __
          > > >
          > > > Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given,
          > > > like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI
          > > > constraints, and they figure out how to meet them. That's
          > > > self-organization. You micromanage the product (including the
          > > > constraints, which are part of the product), and don't micromanage
          > > > the team. It's not anarchy, or a self-directed team. Direction is
          > > > given, micromanagement is not.
          > > >
          > > > Dan ;-)
          > > >
          > > > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST
          > > >
          > > > Author of /Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals/
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Joshua Partogi
          > > > <joshua.java@... <mailto:joshua.java@...>> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > __
          > > >
          > > > Hi,
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure
          > > > that the CMMI processes are run and employed by the team without
          > > > telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed. Has
          > > > anyone here any experience being in a CMMI L5 organization
          > > > running Scrum?
          > > >
          > > > Thanks heaps for the suggestions.
          > >
          > > --
          > > ----------------------------------------------------------
          > > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
          > > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
          > > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
          > > ----------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • gopinath
          Sameh, It all depends on how CMMI is implemented in an organization. CMMI specifies the end goals but is not prescriptive about how the goals are achieved.
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 4, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Sameh,
            It all depends on how CMMI is implemented in an organization.
            CMMI specifies the end goals but is not prescriptive about how the goals are achieved.
            While there are some organizations where processes are unilaterally defined by SEPG,yet in many organizations processes are defined and reviewed by practitioners before being adopted as standards.
            Morever there are mechanisms built in CMMI for collecting best practices and lessons learned from different projects and making it available in a organizational level data base accessed by all. Project teams can tailor the processes to suit their situation. They are also encouraged to submit process change requests based on their project experience.
            Since this is not a CMMI forum I suggest we continue this discussion offline. Please feel free to send in your views.
            Gopinath
            http://in.linkedin.com/in/gopinathr


            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Sameh Zeid <sameh.zeid@...> wrote:
            >
            > In CMMI, the Software Engineering Process Group (SEPG) is in-charge of
            > process improvement instead of empowering the teams to arrive at their
            > own process. The SEPG facilitate the creation of the defined process
            > that should be followed by various teams.
            >
            > From my view CMMI disregards the empiricism of the software process and
            > stress on defining the software process.
            >
            > Sameh
            >
          • Ahmed ALmahdy
            Check this presentation http://www.slideshare.net/aamahdys/cmmi-requirements-development-and-management-in-agile-environment   Slide # 17 For Agile CMMI
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 4, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Check this presentation
               
              Slide # 17
              For Agile CMMI topics, I recommend joining this discussion group full of Agile and CMMI experts & practitioners--
               
               
              Regards,
              Ahmed Mahdy
               
              --- On Sat, 9/3/11, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

              From: George Dinwiddie <lists@...>
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] How do we enforce the team to run CMMI process without authority?
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 9:26 AM

               
              Joshua,

              One thing to consider is that CMMI level 5 is "Optimizing." That means
              that you're measuring your process and making adjustments accordingly.
              If your process is a flat "the team shall work this way" then you're
              probably doing a lousy job at optimizing. If only those at the top are
              choosing how to improve the measures, then improvement is much slower.
              Along with that, such enterprises often choose the wrong thing to
              measure, and while their numbers go up, their success may not.

              CMMI level 5 does NOT imply that you're doing a good job.

              - George

              On 9/3/11 1:08 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
              >
              >
              > Thanks Dan,
              >
              > This is well said. I am getting the grasp of it now. So I guess from
              > your explanation the management manage the strategies whilst the
              > development team manage the tactics. CMIIW. As part of the strategy, the
              > team must follow the CMMI constraints. Can we put this CMMI constraints
              > as a definition of "Done"? So the function or product is not deemed as
              > "Done" if it is not within CMMI constraints. Please advise.
              >
              > Kindest regards,
              > Joshua.
              >
              > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Dan Rawsthorne
              > <dan.rawsthorne@... <mailto:dan.rawsthorne@...>>
              > wrote:
              >
              > __
              >
              > Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given,
              > like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI
              > constraints, and they figure out how to meet them. That's
              > self-organization. You micromanage the product (including the
              > constraints, which are part of the product), and don't micromanage
              > the team. It's not anarchy, or a self-directed team. Direction is
              > given, micromanagement is not.
              >
              > Dan ;-)
              >
              > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST
              >
              > Author of /Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals/
              >
              >
              > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Joshua Partogi
              > <joshua.java@... <mailto:joshua.java@...>> wrote:
              >
              > __
              >
              > Hi,
              >
              >
              > So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure
              > that the CMMI processes are run and employed by the team without
              > telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed. Has
              > anyone here any experience being in a CMMI L5 organization
              > running Scrum?
              >
              > Thanks heaps for the suggestions.

              --
              ----------------------------------------------------------
              * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
              Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
              Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
              ----------------------------------------------------------

            • jsutherland
              There is only one CMMI Level 5 organization that has Scrum as the standard process (although I ve done some training in an IBM organization that claimed to be
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 4, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                There is only one CMMI Level 5 organization that has Scrum as the standard process (although I've done some training in an IBM organization that claimed to be CMMI 5).

                This is Systematic in Denmark and there are several papers describing their implementation at scrum.jeffsutherland.com (click on Jeff Sutherland's Papers link).

                They consistently get 80% reduction in planning costs, 50% reduction in overall project costs, and 40% reduction in defects across the company. They can still do a perfect waterfall but they bid this at twice the cost of a Scrum project.

                These are not hyperproductive results (these are cross company results) and they have some hyperproductive teams that can deliver at 25% of the cost of the same project with the same people using waterfall.

                Scrum teams always need to follow the basic engineering practices implemented by management so these guys just meet the CMMI Level 5 requirements at the end of every sprint.

                Carsten Jakobsen, the process leader of Systematic is usually willing to discuss these issues with those implementing CMMI. Since I think he has the best data on CMMI and Scrum on the planet you should probably talk to him about it.

                Jeff Sutherland

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi,
                >
                > So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure that the CMMI
                > processes are run and employed by the team without telling them to do it
                > because Scrum team is self-managed. Has anyone here any experience being in
                > a CMMI L5 organization running Scrum?
                >
                > Thanks heaps for the suggestions.
                >
                > --
                > @jpartogi
                >
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.