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Re: [scrumdevelopment] How do we enforce the team to run CMMI process without authority?

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  • Sameh Zeid
    In CMMI, the Software Engineering Process Group (SEPG) is in-charge of process improvement instead of empowering the teams to arrive at their own process. The
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 2, 2011
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      In CMMI, the Software Engineering Process Group (SEPG) is in-charge of
      process improvement instead of empowering the teams to arrive at their
      own process. The SEPG facilitate the creation of the defined process
      that should be followed by various teams.

      From my view CMMI disregards the empiricism of the software process and
      stress on defining the software process.

      Sameh
    • Dan Rawsthorne
      Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given, like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI constraints, and they figure
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 2, 2011
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        Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given, like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI constraints, and they figure out how to meet them. That's self-organization. You micromanage the product (including the constraints, which are part of the product), and don't micromanage the team. It's not anarchy, or a self-directed team. Direction is given, micromanagement is not.

        Dan  ;-)

        Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST

        Author of Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals


        On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
         

        Hi,


        So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure that the CMMI processes are run and employed by the team without telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed. Has anyone here any experience being in a CMMI L5 organization running Scrum?

        Thanks heaps for the suggestions.

        --
        @jpartogi


      • Adam Sroka
        How would you prove that an organization does or does not have a culture that fosters continuous improvement in order to certify it as such? It seems to me
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 2, 2011
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          How would you prove that an organization does or does not have a culture that fosters continuous improvement in order to certify it as such? It seems to me that it is possible to have two organizations who in their present states are behaving almost identically and yet one of them continuously improves and the other doesn't. 

          At the risk of getting too philosophical, I don't believe that organizations have values. I think that people have values and to the extent that people can share similar values and behave collectively organizations can appear to have those same values. I believe that it is up to people to continuously improve or not and there is very little that an organization can do about it. There are many examples. Toyota past and present is one. 

          On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 7:00 AM, Deniz İren <deniziren@...> wrote:
           

          By definition CMMI 5 requires the organization to have the culture that fosters continuous improvement. So it means people do the things the right way. If not, then it is not C5, whether self managed or not.  



          On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Paul Hudson <phudson@...> wrote:
           

          > without telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed.

          They're self managed within company policies. They don't get freedom to do things how they like in all areas. If the company says vacation needs to be booked using a specific system and process, they don't get to replace this by a calendar on the wall in their office :)

          So, if it's corporate policy that certain CMMI-related processes are followed, that's the way it has to be. I would hope there's room for discussion what exactly needs to be done to comply, though.






          --
          Y. Deniz İREN
          * PMP               
          * PhD Candidate 
          * HCI Enthusiast 
          < www.deniziren.com >


        • Joshua Partogi
          Thanks Dan, This is well said. I am getting the grasp of it now. So I guess from your explanation the management manage the strategies whilst the development
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 2, 2011
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            Thanks Dan,

            This is well said. I am getting the grasp of it now. So I guess from your explanation the management manage the strategies whilst the development team manage the tactics. CMIIW. As part of the strategy, the team must follow the CMMI constraints. Can we put this CMMI constraints as a definition of "Done"? So the function or product is not deemed as "Done" if it is not within CMMI constraints. Please advise.

            Kindest regards,
            Joshua.

            On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Dan Rawsthorne <dan.rawsthorne@...> wrote:
             

            Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given, like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI constraints, and they figure out how to meet them. That's self-organization. You micromanage the product (including the constraints, which are part of the product), and don't micromanage the team. It's not anarchy, or a self-directed team. Direction is given, micromanagement is not.

            Dan  ;-)

            Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST

            Author of Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals


            On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
             

            Hi,


            So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure that the CMMI processes are run and employed by the team without telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed. Has anyone here any experience being in a CMMI L5 organization running Scrum?

            Thanks heaps for the suggestions.

            --
            @jpartogi



            --
            @jpartogi
          • Joshua Partogi
            Thanks George. I will follow Hillel s blog. Kindest regards, Joshua. On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 11:56 AM, George Dinwiddie ... -- @jpartogi
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 2, 2011
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              Thanks George. I will follow Hillel's blog.

              Kindest regards,
              Joshua.

              On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 11:56 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
               

              Joshua,



              On 9/2/11 7:29 PM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi Charles,
              >
              > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 1:55 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
              > <chuck-lists2@... <mailto:chuck-lists2@...>> wrote:
              >
              > __
              >
              > My hope in this scenario is that whoever has made and/or enforces
              > the CMMI decision gives the team much flexibility in how the levels
              > are achieved, rather than dictating a solution. If they dictate a
              > solution, then it will most likely hinder the Scrum team's ability
              > to self organize to deliver a product increment.
              >
              >
              > If the processes are not enforced there is a possibility that the CM
              > level will drop. How can we maintain the Level 5 while still giving the
              > team flexibility to self-manage? Remember that CMMI was conceived out of
              > a command-and-control type organisation.

              It's true that CMMI was developed primarily for, and with funding from,
              military contracting agencies. And it's true that most organizations
              that seek CMMI assessments take a cookie cutter approach.

              It doesn't necessarily have to be that way, though. You might ask
              Hillel Glazer (http://www.agilecmmi.com/) or on the Agile-CMMI LinkedIn
              group.

               
              --
              @jpartogi
            • George Dinwiddie
              Joshua, One thing to consider is that CMMI level 5 is Optimizing. That means that you re measuring your process and making adjustments accordingly. If your
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 3, 2011
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                Joshua,

                One thing to consider is that CMMI level 5 is "Optimizing." That means
                that you're measuring your process and making adjustments accordingly.
                If your process is a flat "the team shall work this way" then you're
                probably doing a lousy job at optimizing. If only those at the top are
                choosing how to improve the measures, then improvement is much slower.
                Along with that, such enterprises often choose the wrong thing to
                measure, and while their numbers go up, their success may not.

                CMMI level 5 does NOT imply that you're doing a good job.

                - George

                On 9/3/11 1:08 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
                >
                >
                > Thanks Dan,
                >
                > This is well said. I am getting the grasp of it now. So I guess from
                > your explanation the management manage the strategies whilst the
                > development team manage the tactics. CMIIW. As part of the strategy, the
                > team must follow the CMMI constraints. Can we put this CMMI constraints
                > as a definition of "Done"? So the function or product is not deemed as
                > "Done" if it is not within CMMI constraints. Please advise.
                >
                > Kindest regards,
                > Joshua.
                >
                > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Dan Rawsthorne
                > <dan.rawsthorne@... <mailto:dan.rawsthorne@...>>
                > wrote:
                >
                > __
                >
                > Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given,
                > like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI
                > constraints, and they figure out how to meet them. That's
                > self-organization. You micromanage the product (including the
                > constraints, which are part of the product), and don't micromanage
                > the team. It's not anarchy, or a self-directed team. Direction is
                > given, micromanagement is not.
                >
                > Dan ;-)
                >
                > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST
                >
                > Author of /Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals/
                >
                >
                > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Joshua Partogi
                > <joshua.java@... <mailto:joshua.java@...>> wrote:
                >
                > __
                >
                > Hi,
                >
                >
                > So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure
                > that the CMMI processes are run and employed by the team without
                > telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed. Has
                > anyone here any experience being in a CMMI L5 organization
                > running Scrum?
                >
                > Thanks heaps for the suggestions.

                --
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              • Dan Rawsthorne
                Technically, you don t have to have an organization that is continuously improving; you need an organization that has processes that are intended to make it
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 3, 2011
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                  Technically, you don't have to have an organization that is continuously improving; you need an organization that has processes that are intended to make it improve. The very fact of having retrospectives (whether or not they are actually effective) - and the metrics to support them - would seem to be enough.

                  I think that organizations, teams, and people have values: the organization's values are embodied in the intent of their required practices, the team's values are embodied in the practices they adapt through self-organization, and the people's values are embodied in the execution of those practices. Alignment is difficult.

                  Dan  ;-)

                  Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST

                  Author of Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals


                  On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                   

                  How would you prove that an organization does or does not have a culture that fosters continuous improvement in order to certify it as such? It seems to me that it is possible to have two organizations who in their present states are behaving almost identically and yet one of them continuously improves and the other doesn't. 


                  At the risk of getting too philosophical, I don't believe that organizations have values. I think that people have values and to the extent that people can share similar values and behave collectively organizations can appear to have those same values. I believe that it is up to people to continuously improve or not and there is very little that an organization can do about it. There are many examples. Toyota past and present is one. 


                  On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 7:00 AM, Deniz İren <deniziren@...> wrote:
                   

                  By definition CMMI 5 requires the organization to have the culture that fosters continuous improvement. So it means people do the things the right way. If not, then it is not C5, whether self managed or not.  



                  On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Paul Hudson <phudson@...> wrote:
                   

                  > without telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed.

                  They're self managed within company policies. They don't get freedom to do things how they like in all areas. If the company says vacation needs to be booked using a specific system and process, they don't get to replace this by a calendar on the wall in their office :)

                  So, if it's corporate policy that certain CMMI-related processes are followed, that's the way it has to be. I would hope there's room for discussion what exactly needs to be done to comply, though.






                  --
                  Y. Deniz İREN
                  * PMP               
                  * PhD Candidate 
                  * HCI Enthusiast 
                  < www.deniziren.com >



                • Dan Rawsthorne
                  Yes, you can put the CMMI constraints in as part of Done for each individual Item. And, as George says, CMMI Level 5 means that the team is improving itself,
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 3, 2011
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                    Yes, you can put the CMMI constraints in as part of "Done" for each individual Item. And, as George says, CMMI Level 5 means that the team is improving itself, so you need to put that in as part of the process - probably tacking it onto the existing Retrospective process that scrum provides.

                    Dan  ;-)

                    Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST

                    Author of Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals,

                         http://www.amazon.com/dp/1461160286



                    On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 6:26 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
                     

                    Joshua,

                    One thing to consider is that CMMI level 5 is "Optimizing." That means
                    that you're measuring your process and making adjustments accordingly.
                    If your process is a flat "the team shall work this way" then you're
                    probably doing a lousy job at optimizing. If only those at the top are
                    choosing how to improve the measures, then improvement is much slower.
                    Along with that, such enterprises often choose the wrong thing to
                    measure, and while their numbers go up, their success may not.

                    CMMI level 5 does NOT imply that you're doing a good job.

                    - George



                    On 9/3/11 1:08 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks Dan,
                    >
                    > This is well said. I am getting the grasp of it now. So I guess from
                    > your explanation the management manage the strategies whilst the
                    > development team manage the tactics. CMIIW. As part of the strategy, the
                    > team must follow the CMMI constraints. Can we put this CMMI constraints
                    > as a definition of "Done"? So the function or product is not deemed as
                    > "Done" if it is not within CMMI constraints. Please advise.
                    >
                    > Kindest regards,
                    > Joshua.
                    >
                    > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Dan Rawsthorne
                    > <dan.rawsthorne@... <mailto:dan.rawsthorne@...>>

                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > __
                    >
                    > Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given,
                    > like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI
                    > constraints, and they figure out how to meet them. That's
                    > self-organization. You micromanage the product (including the
                    > constraints, which are part of the product), and don't micromanage
                    > the team. It's not anarchy, or a self-directed team. Direction is
                    > given, micromanagement is not.
                    >
                    > Dan ;-)
                    >
                    > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST
                    >
                    > Author of /Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals/
                    >
                    >
                    > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Joshua Partogi
                    > <joshua.java@... <mailto:joshua.java@...>> wrote:
                    >
                    > __
                    >
                    > Hi,
                    >
                    >
                    > So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure
                    > that the CMMI processes are run and employed by the team without
                    > telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed. Has
                    > anyone here any experience being in a CMMI L5 organization
                    > running Scrum?
                    >
                    > Thanks heaps for the suggestions.

                    --
                    ----------------------------------------------------------
                    * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                    Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                    Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                    ----------------------------------------------------------


                  • gopinath
                    In my view if Scrum and other agile practices are fully implemented in letter and in spirit, the CMMI requirements are not a constraint at all. This is
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 4, 2011
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                      In my view if Scrum and other agile practices are fully implemented in letter and in spirit, the CMMI requirements are not a constraint at all.
                      This is especially true for all the CMMI Process Areas directly applicable to projects i.e. project management and engineering related areas.
                      If you tell the project team that you need to do certain things just to satisfy the CMMI requirements, they may consider it as a drudgery and some may even get demotivated. Instead "Done" can be specified in non-CMMI terms something like - coded, peer reviewed, unit tested, integrated and documented.
                      However there are certain CMMI process areas which needs to be implemented at an organizational level like - Organizational Process Focus, Organizational Process Definition, Organizational Process Performance,Training etc. - which agile do not explicitly address. But these are enabling process areas and are not in conflict with agile.
                      The problem arises when the CMMI Lead Appraiser is not able to interpret and map agile practices to CMMI requirements and starts expecting some non-value added practices and documentation to be put in place. Therefore it is in the interest of the organization to engage a Lead Appraiser who is well versed in both CMMI and Agile.

                      Recently I read a very useful book :
                      "Integrating CMMI and Agile Development: Case Studies and Proven Techniques for Faster Performance Improvement" by Paul E. McMahon.
                      http://www.amazon.com/Integrating-CMMI-Agile-Development-Performance/dp/0321714105
                      I have posted the summary of this book at
                      http://bookwormsrecos.blogspot.com/2011/02/integrating-cmmi-and-agile-development.html

                      Hope this will help in better understanding of implementing agile in a CMMI compliant organization.

                      Gopinath
                      http://in.linkedin.com/in/gopinathr


                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Dan Rawsthorne <dan.rawsthorne@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Yes, you can put the CMMI constraints in as part of "Done" for each
                      > individual Item. And, as George says, CMMI Level 5 means that the team is
                      > improving itself, so you need to put that in as part of the process -
                      > probably tacking it onto the existing Retrospective process that scrum
                      > provides.
                      >
                      > Dan ;-)
                      >
                      > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST
                      >
                      > Author of *Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals,*
                      >
                      > http://www.amazon.com/dp/1461160286
                      >
                      >
                      > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 6:26 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...>wrote:
                      >
                      > > **
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Joshua,
                      > >
                      > > One thing to consider is that CMMI level 5 is "Optimizing." That means
                      > > that you're measuring your process and making adjustments accordingly.
                      > > If your process is a flat "the team shall work this way" then you're
                      > > probably doing a lousy job at optimizing. If only those at the top are
                      > > choosing how to improve the measures, then improvement is much slower.
                      > > Along with that, such enterprises often choose the wrong thing to
                      > > measure, and while their numbers go up, their success may not.
                      > >
                      > > CMMI level 5 does NOT imply that you're doing a good job.
                      > >
                      > > - George
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On 9/3/11 1:08 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks Dan,
                      > > >
                      > > > This is well said. I am getting the grasp of it now. So I guess from
                      > > > your explanation the management manage the strategies whilst the
                      > > > development team manage the tactics. CMIIW. As part of the strategy, the
                      > > > team must follow the CMMI constraints. Can we put this CMMI constraints
                      > > > as a definition of "Done"? So the function or product is not deemed as
                      > > > "Done" if it is not within CMMI constraints. Please advise.
                      > > >
                      > > > Kindest regards,
                      > > > Joshua.
                      > > >
                      > > > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Dan Rawsthorne
                      > > > <dan.rawsthorne@... <mailto:dan.rawsthorne@...>>
                      > >
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > __
                      > > >
                      > > > Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given,
                      > > > like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI
                      > > > constraints, and they figure out how to meet them. That's
                      > > > self-organization. You micromanage the product (including the
                      > > > constraints, which are part of the product), and don't micromanage
                      > > > the team. It's not anarchy, or a self-directed team. Direction is
                      > > > given, micromanagement is not.
                      > > >
                      > > > Dan ;-)
                      > > >
                      > > > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST
                      > > >
                      > > > Author of /Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals/
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Joshua Partogi
                      > > > <joshua.java@... <mailto:joshua.java@...>> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > __
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi,
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure
                      > > > that the CMMI processes are run and employed by the team without
                      > > > telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed. Has
                      > > > anyone here any experience being in a CMMI L5 organization
                      > > > running Scrum?
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks heaps for the suggestions.
                      > >
                      > > --
                      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                      > > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                      > > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                      > > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • gopinath
                      Sameh, It all depends on how CMMI is implemented in an organization. CMMI specifies the end goals but is not prescriptive about how the goals are achieved.
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 4, 2011
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                        Sameh,
                        It all depends on how CMMI is implemented in an organization.
                        CMMI specifies the end goals but is not prescriptive about how the goals are achieved.
                        While there are some organizations where processes are unilaterally defined by SEPG,yet in many organizations processes are defined and reviewed by practitioners before being adopted as standards.
                        Morever there are mechanisms built in CMMI for collecting best practices and lessons learned from different projects and making it available in a organizational level data base accessed by all. Project teams can tailor the processes to suit their situation. They are also encouraged to submit process change requests based on their project experience.
                        Since this is not a CMMI forum I suggest we continue this discussion offline. Please feel free to send in your views.
                        Gopinath
                        http://in.linkedin.com/in/gopinathr


                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Sameh Zeid <sameh.zeid@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > In CMMI, the Software Engineering Process Group (SEPG) is in-charge of
                        > process improvement instead of empowering the teams to arrive at their
                        > own process. The SEPG facilitate the creation of the defined process
                        > that should be followed by various teams.
                        >
                        > From my view CMMI disregards the empiricism of the software process and
                        > stress on defining the software process.
                        >
                        > Sameh
                        >
                      • Ahmed ALmahdy
                        Check this presentation http://www.slideshare.net/aamahdys/cmmi-requirements-development-and-management-in-agile-environment   Slide # 17 For Agile CMMI
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 4, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Check this presentation
                           
                          Slide # 17
                          For Agile CMMI topics, I recommend joining this discussion group full of Agile and CMMI experts & practitioners--
                           
                           
                          Regards,
                          Ahmed Mahdy
                           
                          --- On Sat, 9/3/11, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

                          From: George Dinwiddie <lists@...>
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] How do we enforce the team to run CMMI process without authority?
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 9:26 AM

                           
                          Joshua,

                          One thing to consider is that CMMI level 5 is "Optimizing." That means
                          that you're measuring your process and making adjustments accordingly.
                          If your process is a flat "the team shall work this way" then you're
                          probably doing a lousy job at optimizing. If only those at the top are
                          choosing how to improve the measures, then improvement is much slower.
                          Along with that, such enterprises often choose the wrong thing to
                          measure, and while their numbers go up, their success may not.

                          CMMI level 5 does NOT imply that you're doing a good job.

                          - George

                          On 9/3/11 1:08 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Thanks Dan,
                          >
                          > This is well said. I am getting the grasp of it now. So I guess from
                          > your explanation the management manage the strategies whilst the
                          > development team manage the tactics. CMIIW. As part of the strategy, the
                          > team must follow the CMMI constraints. Can we put this CMMI constraints
                          > as a definition of "Done"? So the function or product is not deemed as
                          > "Done" if it is not within CMMI constraints. Please advise.
                          >
                          > Kindest regards,
                          > Joshua.
                          >
                          > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Dan Rawsthorne
                          > <dan.rawsthorne@... <mailto:dan.rawsthorne@...>>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > __
                          >
                          > Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given,
                          > like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI
                          > constraints, and they figure out how to meet them. That's
                          > self-organization. You micromanage the product (including the
                          > constraints, which are part of the product), and don't micromanage
                          > the team. It's not anarchy, or a self-directed team. Direction is
                          > given, micromanagement is not.
                          >
                          > Dan ;-)
                          >
                          > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST
                          >
                          > Author of /Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals/
                          >
                          >
                          > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Joshua Partogi
                          > <joshua.java@... <mailto:joshua.java@...>> wrote:
                          >
                          > __
                          >
                          > Hi,
                          >
                          >
                          > So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure
                          > that the CMMI processes are run and employed by the team without
                          > telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed. Has
                          > anyone here any experience being in a CMMI L5 organization
                          > running Scrum?
                          >
                          > Thanks heaps for the suggestions.

                          --
                          ----------------------------------------------------------
                          * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                          Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                          Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                          ----------------------------------------------------------

                        • jsutherland
                          There is only one CMMI Level 5 organization that has Scrum as the standard process (although I ve done some training in an IBM organization that claimed to be
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 4, 2011
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                            There is only one CMMI Level 5 organization that has Scrum as the standard process (although I've done some training in an IBM organization that claimed to be CMMI 5).

                            This is Systematic in Denmark and there are several papers describing their implementation at scrum.jeffsutherland.com (click on Jeff Sutherland's Papers link).

                            They consistently get 80% reduction in planning costs, 50% reduction in overall project costs, and 40% reduction in defects across the company. They can still do a perfect waterfall but they bid this at twice the cost of a Scrum project.

                            These are not hyperproductive results (these are cross company results) and they have some hyperproductive teams that can deliver at 25% of the cost of the same project with the same people using waterfall.

                            Scrum teams always need to follow the basic engineering practices implemented by management so these guys just meet the CMMI Level 5 requirements at the end of every sprint.

                            Carsten Jakobsen, the process leader of Systematic is usually willing to discuss these issues with those implementing CMMI. Since I think he has the best data on CMMI and Scrum on the planet you should probably talk to him about it.

                            Jeff Sutherland

                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi,
                            >
                            > So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure that the CMMI
                            > processes are run and employed by the team without telling them to do it
                            > because Scrum team is self-managed. Has anyone here any experience being in
                            > a CMMI L5 organization running Scrum?
                            >
                            > Thanks heaps for the suggestions.
                            >
                            > --
                            > @jpartogi
                            >
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