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Re: [scrumdevelopment] How do we enforce the team to run CMMI process without authority?

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  • Paul Hudson
    ... They re self managed within company policies. They don t get freedom to do things how they like in all areas. If the company says vacation needs to be
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 2 4:11 AM
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      > without telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed.

      They're self managed within company policies. They don't get freedom to do things how they like in all areas. If the company says vacation needs to be booked using a specific system and process, they don't get to replace this by a calendar on the wall in their office :)

      So, if it's corporate policy that certain CMMI-related processes are followed, that's the way it has to be. I would hope there's room for discussion what exactly needs to be done to comply, though.



    • Deniz İren
      By definition CMMI 5 requires the organization to have the culture that fosters continuous improvement. So it means people do the things the right way. If not,
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 2 7:00 AM
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        By definition CMMI 5 requires the organization to have the culture that fosters continuous improvement. So it means people do the things the right way. If not, then it is not C5, whether self managed or not.  

        On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Paul Hudson <phudson@...> wrote:
         

        > without telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed.

        They're self managed within company policies. They don't get freedom to do things how they like in all areas. If the company says vacation needs to be booked using a specific system and process, they don't get to replace this by a calendar on the wall in their office :)

        So, if it's corporate policy that certain CMMI-related processes are followed, that's the way it has to be. I would hope there's room for discussion what exactly needs to be done to comply, though.






        --
        Y. Deniz İREN
        * PMP               
        * PhD Candidate 
        * HCI Enthusiast 
        < www.deniziren.com >
      • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
        +1 Scrum is a framework for product development.  It is not a framework for employee management.  Self-managed and self-organized are often used
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 2 8:55 AM
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          +1

          Scrum is a framework for product development.  It is not a framework for employee management.  Self-managed and self-organized are often used synonymously, but in this context, I think it's important to remember that 'organize' and 'manage' mean different things.  There is always some person or persons outside of the Scrum Team who hold the Scrum Team accountable.  Implementing Scrum doesn't change that.

          My hope in this scenario is that whoever has made and/or enforces the CMMI decision gives the team much flexibility in how the levels are achieved, rather than dictating a solution.  If they dictate a solution, then it will most likely hinder the Scrum team's ability to self organize to deliver a product increment.
           
          -------
          Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
          Experienced Scrum Coach
          Currently Seeking engagement as Scrum Coach or Scrum Master in Denver area
          My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

          From: Paul Hudson <phudson@...>
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 5:11 AM
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] How do we enforce the team to run CMMI process without authority?



          > without telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed.

          They're self managed within company policies. They don't get freedom to do things how they like in all areas. If the company says vacation needs to be booked using a specific system and process, they don't get to replace this by a calendar on the wall in their office :)

          So, if it's corporate policy that certain CMMI-related processes are followed, that's the way it has to be. I would hope there's room for discussion what exactly needs to be done to comply, though.







        • Sameh Zeid
          In CMMI, the Software Engineering Process Group (SEPG) is in-charge of process improvement instead of empowering the teams to arrive at their own process. The
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 2 9:19 AM
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            In CMMI, the Software Engineering Process Group (SEPG) is in-charge of
            process improvement instead of empowering the teams to arrive at their
            own process. The SEPG facilitate the creation of the defined process
            that should be followed by various teams.

            From my view CMMI disregards the empiricism of the software process and
            stress on defining the software process.

            Sameh
          • RonJeffries
            Hi Deniz, ... In practice, I have not seen any (zero) CMMI 5 organizations where decisions on what to do and how to do it were pushed down to the team level.
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 2 1:42 PM
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              Hi Deniz,

              On Sep 2, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Deniz İren wrote:

              By definition CMMI 5 requires the organization to have the culture that fosters continuous improvement. So it means people do the things the right way. If not, then it is not C5, whether self managed or not.  

              In practice, I have not seen any (zero) CMMI 5 organizations where decisions on what to do and how to do it were pushed down to the team level.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
              Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
              Yin and Yang I figure.
                -- Tom Jeffries

            • Joshua Partogi
              Hi Charles, On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 1:55 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 2 4:29 PM
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                Hi Charles,

                On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 1:55 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:

                My hope in this scenario is that whoever has made and/or enforces the CMMI decision gives the team much flexibility in how the levels are achieved, rather than dictating a solution.  If they dictate a solution, then it will most likely hinder the Scrum team's ability to self organize to deliver a product increment.
                 

                If the processes are not enforced there is a possibility that the CM level will drop. How can we maintain the Level 5 while still giving the team flexibility to self-manage? Remember that CMMI was conceived out of a command-and-control type organisation.


                --
                @jpartogi
              • George Dinwiddie
                Joshua, ... It s true that CMMI was developed primarily for, and with funding from, military contracting agencies. And it s true that most organizations that
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 2 6:56 PM
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                  Joshua,

                  On 9/2/11 7:29 PM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Charles,
                  >
                  > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 1:55 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                  > <chuck-lists2@... <mailto:chuck-lists2@...>> wrote:
                  >
                  > __
                  >
                  > My hope in this scenario is that whoever has made and/or enforces
                  > the CMMI decision gives the team much flexibility in how the levels
                  > are achieved, rather than dictating a solution. If they dictate a
                  > solution, then it will most likely hinder the Scrum team's ability
                  > to self organize to deliver a product increment.
                  >
                  >
                  > If the processes are not enforced there is a possibility that the CM
                  > level will drop. How can we maintain the Level 5 while still giving the
                  > team flexibility to self-manage? Remember that CMMI was conceived out of
                  > a command-and-control type organisation.

                  It's true that CMMI was developed primarily for, and with funding from,
                  military contracting agencies. And it's true that most organizations
                  that seek CMMI assessments take a cookie cutter approach.

                  It doesn't necessarily have to be that way, though. You might ask
                  Hillel Glazer (http://www.agilecmmi.com/) or on the Agile-CMMI LinkedIn
                  group.

                  - George

                  --
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                  Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                  Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                • Dan Rawsthorne
                  Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given, like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI constraints, and they figure
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 2 9:02 PM
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                    Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given, like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI constraints, and they figure out how to meet them. That's self-organization. You micromanage the product (including the constraints, which are part of the product), and don't micromanage the team. It's not anarchy, or a self-directed team. Direction is given, micromanagement is not.

                    Dan  ;-)

                    Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST

                    Author of Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals


                    On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                     

                    Hi,


                    So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure that the CMMI processes are run and employed by the team without telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed. Has anyone here any experience being in a CMMI L5 organization running Scrum?

                    Thanks heaps for the suggestions.

                    --
                    @jpartogi


                  • Adam Sroka
                    How would you prove that an organization does or does not have a culture that fosters continuous improvement in order to certify it as such? It seems to me
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 2 9:29 PM
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                      How would you prove that an organization does or does not have a culture that fosters continuous improvement in order to certify it as such? It seems to me that it is possible to have two organizations who in their present states are behaving almost identically and yet one of them continuously improves and the other doesn't. 

                      At the risk of getting too philosophical, I don't believe that organizations have values. I think that people have values and to the extent that people can share similar values and behave collectively organizations can appear to have those same values. I believe that it is up to people to continuously improve or not and there is very little that an organization can do about it. There are many examples. Toyota past and present is one. 

                      On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 7:00 AM, Deniz İren <deniziren@...> wrote:
                       

                      By definition CMMI 5 requires the organization to have the culture that fosters continuous improvement. So it means people do the things the right way. If not, then it is not C5, whether self managed or not.  



                      On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Paul Hudson <phudson@...> wrote:
                       

                      > without telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed.

                      They're self managed within company policies. They don't get freedom to do things how they like in all areas. If the company says vacation needs to be booked using a specific system and process, they don't get to replace this by a calendar on the wall in their office :)

                      So, if it's corporate policy that certain CMMI-related processes are followed, that's the way it has to be. I would hope there's room for discussion what exactly needs to be done to comply, though.






                      --
                      Y. Deniz İREN
                      * PMP               
                      * PhD Candidate 
                      * HCI Enthusiast 
                      < www.deniziren.com >


                    • Joshua Partogi
                      Thanks Dan, This is well said. I am getting the grasp of it now. So I guess from your explanation the management manage the strategies whilst the development
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 2 10:08 PM
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                        Thanks Dan,

                        This is well said. I am getting the grasp of it now. So I guess from your explanation the management manage the strategies whilst the development team manage the tactics. CMIIW. As part of the strategy, the team must follow the CMMI constraints. Can we put this CMMI constraints as a definition of "Done"? So the function or product is not deemed as "Done" if it is not within CMMI constraints. Please advise.

                        Kindest regards,
                        Joshua.

                        On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Dan Rawsthorne <dan.rawsthorne@...> wrote:
                         

                        Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given, like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI constraints, and they figure out how to meet them. That's self-organization. You micromanage the product (including the constraints, which are part of the product), and don't micromanage the team. It's not anarchy, or a self-directed team. Direction is given, micromanagement is not.

                        Dan  ;-)

                        Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST

                        Author of Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals


                        On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                         

                        Hi,


                        So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure that the CMMI processes are run and employed by the team without telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed. Has anyone here any experience being in a CMMI L5 organization running Scrum?

                        Thanks heaps for the suggestions.

                        --
                        @jpartogi



                        --
                        @jpartogi
                      • Joshua Partogi
                        Thanks George. I will follow Hillel s blog. Kindest regards, Joshua. On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 11:56 AM, George Dinwiddie ... -- @jpartogi
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 2 10:09 PM
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                          Thanks George. I will follow Hillel's blog.

                          Kindest regards,
                          Joshua.

                          On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 11:56 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
                           

                          Joshua,



                          On 9/2/11 7:29 PM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Charles,
                          >
                          > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 1:55 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                          > <chuck-lists2@... <mailto:chuck-lists2@...>> wrote:
                          >
                          > __
                          >
                          > My hope in this scenario is that whoever has made and/or enforces
                          > the CMMI decision gives the team much flexibility in how the levels
                          > are achieved, rather than dictating a solution. If they dictate a
                          > solution, then it will most likely hinder the Scrum team's ability
                          > to self organize to deliver a product increment.
                          >
                          >
                          > If the processes are not enforced there is a possibility that the CM
                          > level will drop. How can we maintain the Level 5 while still giving the
                          > team flexibility to self-manage? Remember that CMMI was conceived out of
                          > a command-and-control type organisation.

                          It's true that CMMI was developed primarily for, and with funding from,
                          military contracting agencies. And it's true that most organizations
                          that seek CMMI assessments take a cookie cutter approach.

                          It doesn't necessarily have to be that way, though. You might ask
                          Hillel Glazer (http://www.agilecmmi.com/) or on the Agile-CMMI LinkedIn
                          group.

                           
                          --
                          @jpartogi
                        • George Dinwiddie
                          Joshua, One thing to consider is that CMMI level 5 is Optimizing. That means that you re measuring your process and making adjustments accordingly. If your
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 3 6:26 AM
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                            Joshua,

                            One thing to consider is that CMMI level 5 is "Optimizing." That means
                            that you're measuring your process and making adjustments accordingly.
                            If your process is a flat "the team shall work this way" then you're
                            probably doing a lousy job at optimizing. If only those at the top are
                            choosing how to improve the measures, then improvement is much slower.
                            Along with that, such enterprises often choose the wrong thing to
                            measure, and while their numbers go up, their success may not.

                            CMMI level 5 does NOT imply that you're doing a good job.

                            - George

                            On 9/3/11 1:08 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Thanks Dan,
                            >
                            > This is well said. I am getting the grasp of it now. So I guess from
                            > your explanation the management manage the strategies whilst the
                            > development team manage the tactics. CMIIW. As part of the strategy, the
                            > team must follow the CMMI constraints. Can we put this CMMI constraints
                            > as a definition of "Done"? So the function or product is not deemed as
                            > "Done" if it is not within CMMI constraints. Please advise.
                            >
                            > Kindest regards,
                            > Joshua.
                            >
                            > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Dan Rawsthorne
                            > <dan.rawsthorne@... <mailto:dan.rawsthorne@...>>
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            > __
                            >
                            > Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given,
                            > like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI
                            > constraints, and they figure out how to meet them. That's
                            > self-organization. You micromanage the product (including the
                            > constraints, which are part of the product), and don't micromanage
                            > the team. It's not anarchy, or a self-directed team. Direction is
                            > given, micromanagement is not.
                            >
                            > Dan ;-)
                            >
                            > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST
                            >
                            > Author of /Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals/
                            >
                            >
                            > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Joshua Partogi
                            > <joshua.java@... <mailto:joshua.java@...>> wrote:
                            >
                            > __
                            >
                            > Hi,
                            >
                            >
                            > So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure
                            > that the CMMI processes are run and employed by the team without
                            > telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed. Has
                            > anyone here any experience being in a CMMI L5 organization
                            > running Scrum?
                            >
                            > Thanks heaps for the suggestions.

                            --
                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                            * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                            Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                            Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                          • Dan Rawsthorne
                            Technically, you don t have to have an organization that is continuously improving; you need an organization that has processes that are intended to make it
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 3 8:19 AM
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                              Technically, you don't have to have an organization that is continuously improving; you need an organization that has processes that are intended to make it improve. The very fact of having retrospectives (whether or not they are actually effective) - and the metrics to support them - would seem to be enough.

                              I think that organizations, teams, and people have values: the organization's values are embodied in the intent of their required practices, the team's values are embodied in the practices they adapt through self-organization, and the people's values are embodied in the execution of those practices. Alignment is difficult.

                              Dan  ;-)

                              Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST

                              Author of Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals


                              On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                               

                              How would you prove that an organization does or does not have a culture that fosters continuous improvement in order to certify it as such? It seems to me that it is possible to have two organizations who in their present states are behaving almost identically and yet one of them continuously improves and the other doesn't. 


                              At the risk of getting too philosophical, I don't believe that organizations have values. I think that people have values and to the extent that people can share similar values and behave collectively organizations can appear to have those same values. I believe that it is up to people to continuously improve or not and there is very little that an organization can do about it. There are many examples. Toyota past and present is one. 


                              On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 7:00 AM, Deniz İren <deniziren@...> wrote:
                               

                              By definition CMMI 5 requires the organization to have the culture that fosters continuous improvement. So it means people do the things the right way. If not, then it is not C5, whether self managed or not.  



                              On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Paul Hudson <phudson@...> wrote:
                               

                              > without telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed.

                              They're self managed within company policies. They don't get freedom to do things how they like in all areas. If the company says vacation needs to be booked using a specific system and process, they don't get to replace this by a calendar on the wall in their office :)

                              So, if it's corporate policy that certain CMMI-related processes are followed, that's the way it has to be. I would hope there's room for discussion what exactly needs to be done to comply, though.






                              --
                              Y. Deniz İREN
                              * PMP               
                              * PhD Candidate 
                              * HCI Enthusiast 
                              < www.deniziren.com >



                            • Dan Rawsthorne
                              Yes, you can put the CMMI constraints in as part of Done for each individual Item. And, as George says, CMMI Level 5 means that the team is improving itself,
                              Message 14 of 19 , Sep 3 4:46 PM
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                                Yes, you can put the CMMI constraints in as part of "Done" for each individual Item. And, as George says, CMMI Level 5 means that the team is improving itself, so you need to put that in as part of the process - probably tacking it onto the existing Retrospective process that scrum provides.

                                Dan  ;-)

                                Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST

                                Author of Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals,

                                     http://www.amazon.com/dp/1461160286



                                On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 6:26 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Joshua,

                                One thing to consider is that CMMI level 5 is "Optimizing." That means
                                that you're measuring your process and making adjustments accordingly.
                                If your process is a flat "the team shall work this way" then you're
                                probably doing a lousy job at optimizing. If only those at the top are
                                choosing how to improve the measures, then improvement is much slower.
                                Along with that, such enterprises often choose the wrong thing to
                                measure, and while their numbers go up, their success may not.

                                CMMI level 5 does NOT imply that you're doing a good job.

                                - George



                                On 9/3/11 1:08 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Thanks Dan,
                                >
                                > This is well said. I am getting the grasp of it now. So I guess from
                                > your explanation the management manage the strategies whilst the
                                > development team manage the tactics. CMIIW. As part of the strategy, the
                                > team must follow the CMMI constraints. Can we put this CMMI constraints
                                > as a definition of "Done"? So the function or product is not deemed as
                                > "Done" if it is not within CMMI constraints. Please advise.
                                >
                                > Kindest regards,
                                > Joshua.
                                >
                                > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Dan Rawsthorne
                                > <dan.rawsthorne@... <mailto:dan.rawsthorne@...>>

                                > wrote:
                                >
                                > __
                                >
                                > Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given,
                                > like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI
                                > constraints, and they figure out how to meet them. That's
                                > self-organization. You micromanage the product (including the
                                > constraints, which are part of the product), and don't micromanage
                                > the team. It's not anarchy, or a self-directed team. Direction is
                                > given, micromanagement is not.
                                >
                                > Dan ;-)
                                >
                                > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST
                                >
                                > Author of /Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals/
                                >
                                >
                                > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Joshua Partogi
                                > <joshua.java@... <mailto:joshua.java@...>> wrote:
                                >
                                > __
                                >
                                > Hi,
                                >
                                >
                                > So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure
                                > that the CMMI processes are run and employed by the team without
                                > telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed. Has
                                > anyone here any experience being in a CMMI L5 organization
                                > running Scrum?
                                >
                                > Thanks heaps for the suggestions.

                                --
                                ----------------------------------------------------------
                                * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                                Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                                Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                                ----------------------------------------------------------


                              • gopinath
                                In my view if Scrum and other agile practices are fully implemented in letter and in spirit, the CMMI requirements are not a constraint at all. This is
                                Message 15 of 19 , Sep 4 12:13 AM
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                                  In my view if Scrum and other agile practices are fully implemented in letter and in spirit, the CMMI requirements are not a constraint at all.
                                  This is especially true for all the CMMI Process Areas directly applicable to projects i.e. project management and engineering related areas.
                                  If you tell the project team that you need to do certain things just to satisfy the CMMI requirements, they may consider it as a drudgery and some may even get demotivated. Instead "Done" can be specified in non-CMMI terms something like - coded, peer reviewed, unit tested, integrated and documented.
                                  However there are certain CMMI process areas which needs to be implemented at an organizational level like - Organizational Process Focus, Organizational Process Definition, Organizational Process Performance,Training etc. - which agile do not explicitly address. But these are enabling process areas and are not in conflict with agile.
                                  The problem arises when the CMMI Lead Appraiser is not able to interpret and map agile practices to CMMI requirements and starts expecting some non-value added practices and documentation to be put in place. Therefore it is in the interest of the organization to engage a Lead Appraiser who is well versed in both CMMI and Agile.

                                  Recently I read a very useful book :
                                  "Integrating CMMI and Agile Development: Case Studies and Proven Techniques for Faster Performance Improvement" by Paul E. McMahon.
                                  http://www.amazon.com/Integrating-CMMI-Agile-Development-Performance/dp/0321714105
                                  I have posted the summary of this book at
                                  http://bookwormsrecos.blogspot.com/2011/02/integrating-cmmi-and-agile-development.html

                                  Hope this will help in better understanding of implementing agile in a CMMI compliant organization.

                                  Gopinath
                                  http://in.linkedin.com/in/gopinathr


                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Dan Rawsthorne <dan.rawsthorne@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Yes, you can put the CMMI constraints in as part of "Done" for each
                                  > individual Item. And, as George says, CMMI Level 5 means that the team is
                                  > improving itself, so you need to put that in as part of the process -
                                  > probably tacking it onto the existing Retrospective process that scrum
                                  > provides.
                                  >
                                  > Dan ;-)
                                  >
                                  > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST
                                  >
                                  > Author of *Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals,*
                                  >
                                  > http://www.amazon.com/dp/1461160286
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 6:26 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...>wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > **
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Joshua,
                                  > >
                                  > > One thing to consider is that CMMI level 5 is "Optimizing." That means
                                  > > that you're measuring your process and making adjustments accordingly.
                                  > > If your process is a flat "the team shall work this way" then you're
                                  > > probably doing a lousy job at optimizing. If only those at the top are
                                  > > choosing how to improve the measures, then improvement is much slower.
                                  > > Along with that, such enterprises often choose the wrong thing to
                                  > > measure, and while their numbers go up, their success may not.
                                  > >
                                  > > CMMI level 5 does NOT imply that you're doing a good job.
                                  > >
                                  > > - George
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > On 9/3/11 1:08 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Thanks Dan,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > This is well said. I am getting the grasp of it now. So I guess from
                                  > > > your explanation the management manage the strategies whilst the
                                  > > > development team manage the tactics. CMIIW. As part of the strategy, the
                                  > > > team must follow the CMMI constraints. Can we put this CMMI constraints
                                  > > > as a definition of "Done"? So the function or product is not deemed as
                                  > > > "Done" if it is not within CMMI constraints. Please advise.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Kindest regards,
                                  > > > Joshua.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Dan Rawsthorne
                                  > > > <dan.rawsthorne@... <mailto:dan.rawsthorne@...>>
                                  > >
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > __
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given,
                                  > > > like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI
                                  > > > constraints, and they figure out how to meet them. That's
                                  > > > self-organization. You micromanage the product (including the
                                  > > > constraints, which are part of the product), and don't micromanage
                                  > > > the team. It's not anarchy, or a self-directed team. Direction is
                                  > > > given, micromanagement is not.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Dan ;-)
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Author of /Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals/
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Joshua Partogi
                                  > > > <joshua.java@... <mailto:joshua.java@...>> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > __
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hi,
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure
                                  > > > that the CMMI processes are run and employed by the team without
                                  > > > telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed. Has
                                  > > > anyone here any experience being in a CMMI L5 organization
                                  > > > running Scrum?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Thanks heaps for the suggestions.
                                  > >
                                  > > --
                                  > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                  > > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                                  > > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                                  > > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                                  > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • gopinath
                                  Sameh, It all depends on how CMMI is implemented in an organization. CMMI specifies the end goals but is not prescriptive about how the goals are achieved.
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Sep 4 7:28 AM
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                                    Sameh,
                                    It all depends on how CMMI is implemented in an organization.
                                    CMMI specifies the end goals but is not prescriptive about how the goals are achieved.
                                    While there are some organizations where processes are unilaterally defined by SEPG,yet in many organizations processes are defined and reviewed by practitioners before being adopted as standards.
                                    Morever there are mechanisms built in CMMI for collecting best practices and lessons learned from different projects and making it available in a organizational level data base accessed by all. Project teams can tailor the processes to suit their situation. They are also encouraged to submit process change requests based on their project experience.
                                    Since this is not a CMMI forum I suggest we continue this discussion offline. Please feel free to send in your views.
                                    Gopinath
                                    http://in.linkedin.com/in/gopinathr


                                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Sameh Zeid <sameh.zeid@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > In CMMI, the Software Engineering Process Group (SEPG) is in-charge of
                                    > process improvement instead of empowering the teams to arrive at their
                                    > own process. The SEPG facilitate the creation of the defined process
                                    > that should be followed by various teams.
                                    >
                                    > From my view CMMI disregards the empiricism of the software process and
                                    > stress on defining the software process.
                                    >
                                    > Sameh
                                    >
                                  • Ahmed ALmahdy
                                    Check this presentation http://www.slideshare.net/aamahdys/cmmi-requirements-development-and-management-in-agile-environment   Slide # 17 For Agile CMMI
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Sep 4 7:44 AM
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                                      Check this presentation
                                       
                                      Slide # 17
                                      For Agile CMMI topics, I recommend joining this discussion group full of Agile and CMMI experts & practitioners--
                                       
                                       
                                      Regards,
                                      Ahmed Mahdy
                                       
                                      --- On Sat, 9/3/11, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

                                      From: George Dinwiddie <lists@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] How do we enforce the team to run CMMI process without authority?
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 9:26 AM

                                       
                                      Joshua,

                                      One thing to consider is that CMMI level 5 is "Optimizing." That means
                                      that you're measuring your process and making adjustments accordingly.
                                      If your process is a flat "the team shall work this way" then you're
                                      probably doing a lousy job at optimizing. If only those at the top are
                                      choosing how to improve the measures, then improvement is much slower.
                                      Along with that, such enterprises often choose the wrong thing to
                                      measure, and while their numbers go up, their success may not.

                                      CMMI level 5 does NOT imply that you're doing a good job.

                                      - George

                                      On 9/3/11 1:08 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Thanks Dan,
                                      >
                                      > This is well said. I am getting the grasp of it now. So I guess from
                                      > your explanation the management manage the strategies whilst the
                                      > development team manage the tactics. CMIIW. As part of the strategy, the
                                      > team must follow the CMMI constraints. Can we put this CMMI constraints
                                      > as a definition of "Done"? So the function or product is not deemed as
                                      > "Done" if it is not within CMMI constraints. Please advise.
                                      >
                                      > Kindest regards,
                                      > Joshua.
                                      >
                                      > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Dan Rawsthorne
                                      > <dan.rawsthorne@... <mailto:dan.rawsthorne@...>>
                                      > wrote:
                                      >
                                      > __
                                      >
                                      > Teams are only self-managed within the constraints they are given,
                                      > like definitions of done, and so on. So, you give them the CMMI
                                      > constraints, and they figure out how to meet them. That's
                                      > self-organization. You micromanage the product (including the
                                      > constraints, which are part of the product), and don't micromanage
                                      > the team. It's not anarchy, or a self-directed team. Direction is
                                      > given, micromanagement is not.
                                      >
                                      > Dan ;-)
                                      >
                                      > Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, PMP, CST
                                      >
                                      > Author of /Exploring Scrum: the Fundamentals/
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Joshua Partogi
                                      > <joshua.java@... <mailto:joshua.java@...>> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > __
                                      >
                                      > Hi,
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure
                                      > that the CMMI processes are run and employed by the team without
                                      > telling them to do it because Scrum team is self-managed. Has
                                      > anyone here any experience being in a CMMI L5 organization
                                      > running Scrum?
                                      >
                                      > Thanks heaps for the suggestions.

                                      --
                                      ----------------------------------------------------------
                                      * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                                      Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                                      Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                                      ----------------------------------------------------------

                                    • jsutherland
                                      There is only one CMMI Level 5 organization that has Scrum as the standard process (although I ve done some training in an IBM organization that claimed to be
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Sep 4 9:19 AM
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                                        There is only one CMMI Level 5 organization that has Scrum as the standard process (although I've done some training in an IBM organization that claimed to be CMMI 5).

                                        This is Systematic in Denmark and there are several papers describing their implementation at scrum.jeffsutherland.com (click on Jeff Sutherland's Papers link).

                                        They consistently get 80% reduction in planning costs, 50% reduction in overall project costs, and 40% reduction in defects across the company. They can still do a perfect waterfall but they bid this at twice the cost of a Scrum project.

                                        These are not hyperproductive results (these are cross company results) and they have some hyperproductive teams that can deliver at 25% of the cost of the same project with the same people using waterfall.

                                        Scrum teams always need to follow the basic engineering practices implemented by management so these guys just meet the CMMI Level 5 requirements at the end of every sprint.

                                        Carsten Jakobsen, the process leader of Systematic is usually willing to discuss these issues with those implementing CMMI. Since I think he has the best data on CMMI and Scrum on the planet you should probably talk to him about it.

                                        Jeff Sutherland

                                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi,
                                        >
                                        > So in the organization that is CMMI Level 5, how do we ensure that the CMMI
                                        > processes are run and employed by the team without telling them to do it
                                        > because Scrum team is self-managed. Has anyone here any experience being in
                                        > a CMMI L5 organization running Scrum?
                                        >
                                        > Thanks heaps for the suggestions.
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > @jpartogi
                                        >
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