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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Advance scrum training

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  • Adam Sroka
    ... You need to know some openings, 90% of which start with the same couple moves (king s pawn or queen s pawn, and if you know even just one opening on each
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 1, 2011
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      On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Don McGreal <mail@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Joshua, the rules of Chess are also 'so damn simple'. Think it's worth learning advance techniques for it?
      >

      You need to know some openings, 90% of which start with the same
      couple moves (king's pawn or queen's pawn, and if you know even just
      one opening on each side you have an advantage over the average casual
      player) Then you need to know a handful of principles for the middle
      game and another handful for the end game. The main thing you need is
      lots and lots of practice.

      Similarly with Scrum, the concepts are very simple. The main thing you
      need is lots and lots of practice. Getting coaching/mentoring so that
      you can practice more effectively and avoid a few common pitfalls is
      probably a good idea, but advanced classroom training is mostly snake
      oil. In fact, "Advanced Scrum" is to me mostly about eliminating parts
      of Scrum that are no longer necessary once the team has developed
      disciplines that supplant them.
    • Michael James
      I was just asked to run an advanced training for a place that thought they had the fundamentals down pat. I tested the participants at the beginning and
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 1, 2011
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        I was just asked to run an advanced training for a place that thought they had the fundamentals down pat.  I tested the participants at the beginning and discovered some of them thought the ScrumMaster manages the team and prioritizes the product backlog, the primary measure of progress is estimates vs. actuals, there are separate Sprints for inception, elaboration, construction and transition, final integration should be deliberately postponed until the last Sprint, Scrum is primarily for known requirements and known technology, Scrum prescribes what to do in every situation, etc.  So the first day wound up being *remedial* Scrum training.  I suspect most places that want "advanced" Scrum training didn't really get it the first time.  Since most trainers don't test their participants yet, it's no surprise this goes undetected.

        --mj

        On Aug 31, 2011, at 6:35 AM, Dennis van der Stelt wrote:

         

        Simple doesn’t always mean easy!

         

        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joshua Partogi
        Sent: dinsdag 30 augustus 2011 13:43
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Advance scrum training

         

         

        Scrum is popular because it's so damn simple. Why would you want to learn advanced techniques with Scrum?

        On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:23 PM, poojawandile <poojawandile@...> wrote:

         

        HI,
        Am curiuos to know if there could be some sort of advanced scrum
        training/scrum
        master training for teams which have been practising Scrum and probably
        can look
        forward to some advanced practices.
        Any thoughts, suggestions, experinces to share?

        thanks,
        pooja



         

        --
        @jpartogi



      • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
        Very well done MJ, on two fronts. 1.  Being smart enough to do the pre-test.  What a great technique! 2.  Inspecting and adapting to your client s needs. 
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 1, 2011
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          Very well done MJ, on two fronts.
          1.  Being smart enough to do the pre-test.  What a great technique!
          2.  Inspecting and adapting to your client's needs.  I'm sure they appreciate that.

          I would think to have a true advanced scrum class a pre-test should be a pre-requisite(maybe not required, but strongly suggested).  I know some of you might not want to point towards Scrum.org, and I respect that, but using their "Scrum Open" test might be an opportunity for a decent pre-test.
           
          -------
          Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
          Experienced Scrum Coach
          Currently Seeking engagement as Scrum Coach or Scrum Master in Denver area
          My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

          From: Michael James <mj4scrum@...>
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 1:07 PM
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Advance scrum training



          I was just asked to run an advanced training for a place that thought they had the fundamentals down pat.  I tested the participants at the beginning and discovered some of them thought the ScrumMaster manages the team and prioritizes the product backlog, the primary measure of progress is estimates vs. actuals, there are separate Sprints for inception, elaboration, construction and transition, final integration should be deliberately postponed until the last Sprint, Scrum is primarily for known requirements and known technology, Scrum prescribes what to do in every situation, etc.  So the first day wound up being *remedial* Scrum training.  I suspect most places that want "advanced" Scrum training didn't really get it the first time.  Since most trainers don't test their participants yet, it's no surprise this goes undetected.

          --mj

          On Aug 31, 2011, at 6:35 AM, Dennis van der Stelt wrote:

           

          Simple doesn’t always mean easy!
           
          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joshua Partogi
          Sent: dinsdag 30 augustus 2011 13:43
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Advance scrum training
           
           
          Scrum is popular because it's so damn simple. Why would you want to learn advanced techniques with Scrum?
          On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:23 PM, poojawandile <poojawandile@...> wrote:
           
          HI,
          Am curiuos to know if there could be some sort of advanced scrum
          training/scrum
          master training for teams which have been practising Scrum and probably
          can look
          forward to some advanced practices.
          Any thoughts, suggestions, experinces to share?

          thanks,
          pooja


           
          --
          @jpartogi






        • Joe
          I give intermediate Scrum courses... 1. An Intermediate Certified Scrum Prod Owner course + workshop that assumes you already have the CSM. 2. A Scrum 201 +
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 2, 2011
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            I give "intermediate" Scrum courses...

            1. An Intermediate Certified Scrum Prod Owner course + workshop that assumes you already have the CSM.
            2. A Scrum 201 + Workshop that assumes you already have the CSM. More from the SM and whole team.

            BTW, we always review the basics too. (See some comments below.)

            I also want to reiterate some comments, many of them made in other words by others on this thread:

            1. There are many things to add to Scrum. XP practices perhaps the first, if you are doing software. I do a course on "Business Value Engineering"; another example of something to add.

            2. Scrum, like a lot of things in life, is deceptively simple. Any 3 year old can swim. But Micheal Phelps (the world record holder in many swimming events) is still learning how to swim (better).

            3. Silver Bullet thinking: I still find people who want Scrum to provide the silver bullet. And, heck, at least two days a week I want a silver bullet that will solve my problems. But sadly, I have not found one.

            Scrum does require lots of hard work. Scrum won't solve your problems. Scrum just gives you a way to solve problems. As a team.

            4. Unlearning bad habits: When I play tennis and ask my coach how to get better, he says he is still working on trying to remove my bad habits. All the stupid things that I did when I thought I was 'really' playing tennis. One phrase we have for this is "Scrum-But"...except that lots of people think, when they are doing it wrongly, that it is 'correct' Scrum. Learning and then having to unlearn bad habits seems part of human nature.

            5. Wax-on, Wax-off: You may remember the movie Karate Kid. The master told the kid, who wanted to learn: "Here are two cloths; wax-on, wax-off. Wax the car. I'll be back in 3 hours." And the kid got ticked off. Why all this boring exercise and practice before doing the real fancy advanced KARATE stuff.

            I find lots of people don't realize that every muscle movement is extremely complex. Just climbing one stair is complex. But it seems simple. So, we don't build up our muscle memory in doing the basics. We don't appreciate all the million subtle movements in each basic, basic part of Scrum.

            6. "Courage": Often I get the question "Those guys are doing it well and we are trying hard, but getting only modest success. Whaddya they got that we don't got?" And the answer, just as in the Wizard of Oz is often: Courage. Or something like that: guts, 'nads, perseverance, whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

            So, "advanced" courses or workshops are a partial solution to these problems. And so is "practice, practice, practice". So is coaching.

            A lot of what you seek is tacit knowledge, is someone who gives you the feeling 'I want to do it again; I can do it!', someone who also scares you... 'OMG, this is important and I might screw it up!" I think it is these things you should seek more than the explicit knowledge.

            YMMV.

            Regards,
            Joe

            LeanAgileTraining.com


            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "poojawandile" <poojawandile@...> wrote:
            >
            > HI,
            > Am curiuos to know if there could be some sort of advanced scrum
            > training/scrum
            > master training for teams which have been practising Scrum and probably
            > can look
            > forward to some advanced practices.
            > Any thoughts, suggestions, experinces to share?
            >
            > thanks,
            > pooja
            >
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