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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Advance scrum training

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  • Don McGreal
    Joshua, the rules of Chess are also so damn simple . Think it s worth learning advance techniques for it? Pooja, the Scrum.org Professional Scrum Master
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 30, 2011
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      Joshua, the rules of Chess are also 'so damn simple'. Think it's worth learning advance techniques for it?

      Pooja, the Scrum.org Professional Scrum Master classes are designed for people that have been applying scrum for awhile. They have a Professional Scrum Foundations class for beginners. 

      Don

      On Aug 30, 2011, at 6:43 AM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:

       

      Scrum is popular because it's so damn simple. Why would you want to learn advanced techniques with Scrum?

      On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:23 PM, poojawandile <poojawandile@...> wrote:
       

      HI,
      Am curiuos to know if there could be some sort of advanced scrum
      training/scrum
      master training for teams which have been practising Scrum and probably
      can look
      forward to some advanced practices.
      Any thoughts, suggestions, experinces to share?

      thanks,
      pooja




      --
      @jpartogi

    • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
      I don t think that s necessarily the best training , but it might be the best training currently available. On another note, I was able to find a few
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 31, 2011
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        I don't think that's necessarily the "best training", but it might be the "best training currently available."

        On another note, I was able to find a few advanced Scrum classes by Googling "Advanced Scrum Training"

        Links:
        http://agilethinking.net/advscrummaster.html
        http://www.agileu.org/course_details.jsp?courseid=193
        http://www.agileu.org/course_details.jsp?courseid=607&schid=1565
        http://www.coachingagileteams.com/schedule-of-upcoming-courses/cat-course-description/
         
        -------
        Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
        Experienced Scrum Coach
        Currently Seeking engagement as Scrum Coach or Scrum Master in Denver area
        My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

        From: ashish_wrt <traderashish@...>
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:01 AM
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Advance scrum training


        Mark said it very well.
        "The best training is experience, reading and asking questions. "

        At advanced level, network with other people in industry practicing Agile (Do not limit to Scrum) and ask questions, discuss and learn from each others experiences. In the field people are innovating and adapting all the time and not limiting themselves to Scrum.

        Ashish
        AgileWrap <http://www.agilewrap.com>, Agile Project Management Software

        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
        >
        > Pooja - down this path is a dangerous road.
        >
        > - There are already such classes out there and with my entrepreneurs hat on
        > maybe I should offer one
        > - The best training is experience, reading and asking questions. You seem to
        > have experience and ask questions. For reading try one of the books I
        > mention here:
        > http://agilepainrelief.com/notesfromatooluser/2011/08/books-for-newly-minted-scrum-masters.html
        > - These days I find my best ideas outside of the Scrum/Agile community. In
        > fact I see my main role as a bridge builder.
        >
        > Cheers
        > Mark Levison
        >
        > [image: Mark] <http://www.flickr.com/photos/36331075@N00/3833840021/>*Mark
        > Levison* | Agile Pain Relief Consulting <http://agilepainrelief.com/> |
        > Certified Scrum Trainer
        > Agile Editor @ InfoQ <http://www.infoq.com/about.jsp> |
        > Blog<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/>|
        > Twitter <http://twitter.com/mlevison> | Office: (613) 862-2538
        > Recent Entries: Story Slicing How Small is Small
        > Enough<http://agilepainrelief.com/notesfromatooluser/2010/09/story-slicing-how-small-is-enough.html>,
        > Why use an Agile
        > Coach<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/11/why-use-an-agile-coach.html>
        > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 7:23 AM, poojawandile <poojawandile@...>wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > HI,
        > > Am curiuos to know if there could be some sort of advanced scrum
        > > training/scrum
        > > master training for teams which have been practising Scrum and probably
        > > can look
        > > forward to some advanced practices.
        > > Any thoughts, suggestions, experinces to share?
        > >
        > > thanks,
        > > pooja
        > >
        > > 
        > >
        >




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      • Adam Sroka
        ... You need to know some openings, 90% of which start with the same couple moves (king s pawn or queen s pawn, and if you know even just one opening on each
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 1 10:36 AM
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          On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Don McGreal <mail@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Joshua, the rules of Chess are also 'so damn simple'. Think it's worth learning advance techniques for it?
          >

          You need to know some openings, 90% of which start with the same
          couple moves (king's pawn or queen's pawn, and if you know even just
          one opening on each side you have an advantage over the average casual
          player) Then you need to know a handful of principles for the middle
          game and another handful for the end game. The main thing you need is
          lots and lots of practice.

          Similarly with Scrum, the concepts are very simple. The main thing you
          need is lots and lots of practice. Getting coaching/mentoring so that
          you can practice more effectively and avoid a few common pitfalls is
          probably a good idea, but advanced classroom training is mostly snake
          oil. In fact, "Advanced Scrum" is to me mostly about eliminating parts
          of Scrum that are no longer necessary once the team has developed
          disciplines that supplant them.
        • Michael James
          I was just asked to run an advanced training for a place that thought they had the fundamentals down pat. I tested the participants at the beginning and
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 1 12:07 PM
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            I was just asked to run an advanced training for a place that thought they had the fundamentals down pat.  I tested the participants at the beginning and discovered some of them thought the ScrumMaster manages the team and prioritizes the product backlog, the primary measure of progress is estimates vs. actuals, there are separate Sprints for inception, elaboration, construction and transition, final integration should be deliberately postponed until the last Sprint, Scrum is primarily for known requirements and known technology, Scrum prescribes what to do in every situation, etc.  So the first day wound up being *remedial* Scrum training.  I suspect most places that want "advanced" Scrum training didn't really get it the first time.  Since most trainers don't test their participants yet, it's no surprise this goes undetected.

            --mj

            On Aug 31, 2011, at 6:35 AM, Dennis van der Stelt wrote:

             

            Simple doesn’t always mean easy!

             

            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joshua Partogi
            Sent: dinsdag 30 augustus 2011 13:43
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Advance scrum training

             

             

            Scrum is popular because it's so damn simple. Why would you want to learn advanced techniques with Scrum?

            On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:23 PM, poojawandile <poojawandile@...> wrote:

             

            HI,
            Am curiuos to know if there could be some sort of advanced scrum
            training/scrum
            master training for teams which have been practising Scrum and probably
            can look
            forward to some advanced practices.
            Any thoughts, suggestions, experinces to share?

            thanks,
            pooja



             

            --
            @jpartogi



          • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
            Very well done MJ, on two fronts. 1.  Being smart enough to do the pre-test.  What a great technique! 2.  Inspecting and adapting to your client s needs. 
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 1 12:33 PM
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              Very well done MJ, on two fronts.
              1.  Being smart enough to do the pre-test.  What a great technique!
              2.  Inspecting and adapting to your client's needs.  I'm sure they appreciate that.

              I would think to have a true advanced scrum class a pre-test should be a pre-requisite(maybe not required, but strongly suggested).  I know some of you might not want to point towards Scrum.org, and I respect that, but using their "Scrum Open" test might be an opportunity for a decent pre-test.
               
              -------
              Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
              Experienced Scrum Coach
              Currently Seeking engagement as Scrum Coach or Scrum Master in Denver area
              My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

              From: Michael James <mj4scrum@...>
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 1:07 PM
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Advance scrum training



              I was just asked to run an advanced training for a place that thought they had the fundamentals down pat.  I tested the participants at the beginning and discovered some of them thought the ScrumMaster manages the team and prioritizes the product backlog, the primary measure of progress is estimates vs. actuals, there are separate Sprints for inception, elaboration, construction and transition, final integration should be deliberately postponed until the last Sprint, Scrum is primarily for known requirements and known technology, Scrum prescribes what to do in every situation, etc.  So the first day wound up being *remedial* Scrum training.  I suspect most places that want "advanced" Scrum training didn't really get it the first time.  Since most trainers don't test their participants yet, it's no surprise this goes undetected.

              --mj

              On Aug 31, 2011, at 6:35 AM, Dennis van der Stelt wrote:

               

              Simple doesn’t always mean easy!
               
              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joshua Partogi
              Sent: dinsdag 30 augustus 2011 13:43
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Advance scrum training
               
               
              Scrum is popular because it's so damn simple. Why would you want to learn advanced techniques with Scrum?
              On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:23 PM, poojawandile <poojawandile@...> wrote:
               
              HI,
              Am curiuos to know if there could be some sort of advanced scrum
              training/scrum
              master training for teams which have been practising Scrum and probably
              can look
              forward to some advanced practices.
              Any thoughts, suggestions, experinces to share?

              thanks,
              pooja


               
              --
              @jpartogi






            • Joe
              I give intermediate Scrum courses... 1. An Intermediate Certified Scrum Prod Owner course + workshop that assumes you already have the CSM. 2. A Scrum 201 +
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 2 12:05 PM
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                I give "intermediate" Scrum courses...

                1. An Intermediate Certified Scrum Prod Owner course + workshop that assumes you already have the CSM.
                2. A Scrum 201 + Workshop that assumes you already have the CSM. More from the SM and whole team.

                BTW, we always review the basics too. (See some comments below.)

                I also want to reiterate some comments, many of them made in other words by others on this thread:

                1. There are many things to add to Scrum. XP practices perhaps the first, if you are doing software. I do a course on "Business Value Engineering"; another example of something to add.

                2. Scrum, like a lot of things in life, is deceptively simple. Any 3 year old can swim. But Micheal Phelps (the world record holder in many swimming events) is still learning how to swim (better).

                3. Silver Bullet thinking: I still find people who want Scrum to provide the silver bullet. And, heck, at least two days a week I want a silver bullet that will solve my problems. But sadly, I have not found one.

                Scrum does require lots of hard work. Scrum won't solve your problems. Scrum just gives you a way to solve problems. As a team.

                4. Unlearning bad habits: When I play tennis and ask my coach how to get better, he says he is still working on trying to remove my bad habits. All the stupid things that I did when I thought I was 'really' playing tennis. One phrase we have for this is "Scrum-But"...except that lots of people think, when they are doing it wrongly, that it is 'correct' Scrum. Learning and then having to unlearn bad habits seems part of human nature.

                5. Wax-on, Wax-off: You may remember the movie Karate Kid. The master told the kid, who wanted to learn: "Here are two cloths; wax-on, wax-off. Wax the car. I'll be back in 3 hours." And the kid got ticked off. Why all this boring exercise and practice before doing the real fancy advanced KARATE stuff.

                I find lots of people don't realize that every muscle movement is extremely complex. Just climbing one stair is complex. But it seems simple. So, we don't build up our muscle memory in doing the basics. We don't appreciate all the million subtle movements in each basic, basic part of Scrum.

                6. "Courage": Often I get the question "Those guys are doing it well and we are trying hard, but getting only modest success. Whaddya they got that we don't got?" And the answer, just as in the Wizard of Oz is often: Courage. Or something like that: guts, 'nads, perseverance, whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

                So, "advanced" courses or workshops are a partial solution to these problems. And so is "practice, practice, practice". So is coaching.

                A lot of what you seek is tacit knowledge, is someone who gives you the feeling 'I want to do it again; I can do it!', someone who also scares you... 'OMG, this is important and I might screw it up!" I think it is these things you should seek more than the explicit knowledge.

                YMMV.

                Regards,
                Joe

                LeanAgileTraining.com


                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "poojawandile" <poojawandile@...> wrote:
                >
                > HI,
                > Am curiuos to know if there could be some sort of advanced scrum
                > training/scrum
                > master training for teams which have been practising Scrum and probably
                > can look
                > forward to some advanced practices.
                > Any thoughts, suggestions, experinces to share?
                >
                > thanks,
                > pooja
                >
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