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FW: [XP] re Extreme BS

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  • Mike Beedle
    All, I know most of you are in the XP list but I wanted to forward this note here because of the never-ending futile quest of matching agile processes to a CMM
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 23 11:24 PM
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      All,

      I know most of you are in the XP list but I wanted to forward this
      note here because of the never-ending futile quest of matching
      agile processes to a CMM level,

      - Mike


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
      Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 8:36 PM
      To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [XP] re Extreme BS



      Forrest uttered in a pompous tone:
      > I will only say that while some XPer were still in diapers I was
      > discussing structured systems analysis and design process flaws with
      > Grace Hopper. While many a xper were learning to walk I was being
      > asked to describe the merits of a new coding methodology called,
      > oddly enough OO. In terms of recent process, gaining the FDA approval
      > of the software development process for a fully automated drug
      > manufacturing process at more then one pharmaceutical company, and
      > three of the largest .com companies, lets me think I know a thing or
      > two about a thing or two... besides, feeling realy old right now :)

      Forrest:

      Very impressive... However, I see a lot of professional experience
      but no "agile" experience i.e. your resume doesn't say: practiced XP
      or for 3 years or Scrum for 5 years.

      More seriously, to make your time worthwhile let me suggest the following:

      tell us specific things about your project so that we
      can understand why it failed

      What XP practices were you following? What were the problems? Why was
      the project unsuccessful? Why do you attribute its failure to XP? etc.

      Forrest uttered in a pompous tone:
      > Honestly my hands on experience with XP has proven to bring a
      > software development house to level 0 CMM. And if you don't know what
      > CMM is then I pity the fool that pairs with you.
      >
      > Not that it can't work, it must be replaced.

      XP is a quite disciplined approach. It requires commitment to its
      rules and practices. However, I think Agile Processes like XP, and
      the concepts of the CMM process framework are orthogonal.

      XP is a self-organizing agile process not a "repeatable and defined"
      Taylor-like mechanistic process. Quite frankly the CMM grade obtained
      for defined sequenced step-wise processes, documentation, committees and
      roles is completely irrelevant to the goals of XP and Scrum which are:

      * Business Value delivered as Software to increase
      Customer Satisfaction (we care about our customers best interests)
      * Human comfort for the members of the team (we care about people)
      * Software Quality measured in terms of the satisfaction of our
      customers needs as delivered by the software we produce (we care
      about the software we produce)

      To achieve these goals, XP relies on the application of
      organizational patterns, the XP practices, to generate the day-to-day
      process. For example, Stand-Up meetings, Continuous Integration,
      Testing Driven Development, and On-Site Customer, generate most
      of the daily work. Pairs then self-organize to do any work that
      is required to accomplish their goals. This is different
      than blindly following a process. Therefore in XP, the
      process is a second order effect and people and its interactions
      driven by the XP patterns are the first order effect. See:
      http://www.agilemanifesto.org for more on this.

      So trying to attach CMM grades to XP or Scrum is flawed. Instead, of
      how well-organized, how well-documented your project is, or how well
      it follows a "defined and repeatable process" you should
      ask how much business value was delivered to the customer, how
      well your developers feel working for the project, and how
      good your software is in terms of meeting the needs of you
      customer.

      In my experience, if you follow the practices faithfully and correctly
      and your team has an appropriate skill level to operate in the project,
      then XP works most of the time,

      - Mike

      To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

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    • Mike Cohn
      Great points, Mike. Thanks for posting it over here. I m on the xp list but it s too noisy for me to read much of it. --Mike ... From: Mike Beedle
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 24 6:33 AM
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        Great points, Mike.

         

        Thanks for posting it over here. I’m on the xp list but it’s too noisy for me to read much of it.

         

        --Mike

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
        Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 12:25 AM
        To: Scrumdevelopment
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] FW: [XP] re Extreme BS

         


        All,

        I know most of you are in the XP list but I wanted to forward this
        note here because of the never-ending futile quest of matching
        agile processes to a CMM level,

        - Mike


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
        Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 8:36 PM
        To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [XP] re Extreme BS



        Forrest uttered in a pompous tone:
        > I will only say that while some XPer were still in diapers I was
        > discussing structured systems analysis and design process flaws with
        > Grace Hopper. While many a xper were learning to walk I was being
        > asked to describe the merits of a new coding methodology called,
        > oddly enough OO. In terms of recent process, gaining the FDA approval
        > of the software development process for a fully automated drug
        > manufacturing process at more then one pharmaceutical company, and
        > three of the largest .com companies,  lets me think I know a thing or
        > two about a thing or two... besides, feeling realy old right now :)

        Forrest:

        Very impressive...   However, I see a lot of professional experience
        but no "agile" experience i.e. your resume doesn't say: practiced XP
        or for 3 years or Scrum for 5 years.

        More seriously, to make your time worthwhile let me suggest the following:

              tell us specific things about your project so that we
              can understand why it failed

        What XP practices were you following?  What were the problems?  Why was
        the project unsuccessful?  Why do you attribute its failure to XP?  etc.

        Forrest uttered in a pompous tone:
        > Honestly my hands on experience with XP has proven to bring a
        > software development house to level 0 CMM. And if you don't know what
        > CMM is then I pity the fool that pairs with you.
        >
        > Not that it can't work, it must be replaced.

        XP is a quite disciplined approach.  It requires commitment to its
        rules and practices.  However, I think Agile Processes like XP, and
        the concepts of the CMM process framework are orthogonal.

        XP is a self-organizing agile process not a "repeatable and defined"
        Taylor-like mechanistic process.  Quite frankly the CMM grade obtained
        for defined sequenced step-wise processes, documentation, committees and
        roles is completely irrelevant to the goals of XP and Scrum which are:

              * Business Value delivered as Software to increase
              Customer Satisfaction (we care about our customers best interests)
              * Human comfort for the members of the team (we care about people)
              * Software Quality measured in terms of the satisfaction of our
              customers needs as delivered by the software we produce (we care
              about the software we produce)

        To achieve these goals, XP relies on the application of
        organizational patterns, the XP practices, to generate the day-to-day
        process.  For example, Stand-Up meetings, Continuous Integration,
        Testing Driven Development, and On-Site Customer, generate most
        of the daily work.  Pairs then self-organize to do any work that
        is required to accomplish their goals.  This is different
        than blindly following a process.  Therefore in XP, the
        process is a second order effect and people and its interactions
        driven by the XP patterns are the first order effect.  See:
        http://www.agilemanifesto.org for more on this.

        So trying to attach CMM grades to XP or Scrum is flawed.  Instead, of
        how well-organized, how well-documented your project is, or how well
        it follows a "defined and repeatable process" you should
        ask how much business value was delivered to the customer, how
        well your developers feel working for the project, and how
        good your software is in terms of meeting the needs of you
        customer.

        In my experience, if you follow the practices faithfully and correctly
        and your team has an appropriate skill level to operate in the project,
        then XP works most of the time,

        - Mike

        To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@...

        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

        ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

      • Bryan Zarnett
        Does it not seem that more people find it important to get to CMM Level X, then to actual get a working development process going in their environment --
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 24 7:12 AM
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          Does it not seem that more people find it important to
          get to CMM Level X, then to actual get a working
          development process going in their environment --
          adaptive to their people and corporate culture.

          Just an observation.

          --- Mike Cohn <mike@...> wrote:
          > Great points, Mike.
          >
          >
          >
          > Thanks for posting it over here. I'm on the xp list
          > but it's too noisy
          > for me to read much of it.
          >
          >
          >
          > --Mike
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
          > Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 12:25 AM
          > To: Scrumdevelopment
          > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] FW: [XP] re Extreme BS
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > All,
          >
          > I know most of you are in the XP list but I wanted
          > to forward this
          > note here because of the never-ending futile quest
          > of matching
          > agile processes to a CMM level,
          >
          > - Mike
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
          > Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 8:36 PM
          > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [XP] re Extreme BS
          >
          >
          >
          > Forrest uttered in a pompous tone:
          > > I will only say that while some XPer were still in
          > diapers I was
          > > discussing structured systems analysis and design
          > process flaws with
          > > Grace Hopper. While many a xper were learning to
          > walk I was being
          > > asked to describe the merits of a new coding
          > methodology called,
          > > oddly enough OO. In terms of recent process,
          > gaining the FDA approval
          > > of the software development process for a fully
          > automated drug
          > > manufacturing process at more then one
          > pharmaceutical company, and
          > > three of the largest .com companies, lets me
          > think I know a thing or
          > > two about a thing or two... besides, feeling realy
          > old right now :)
          >
          > Forrest:
          >
          > Very impressive... However, I see a lot of
          > professional experience
          > but no "agile" experience i.e. your resume doesn't
          > say: practiced XP
          > or for 3 years or Scrum for 5 years.
          >
          > More seriously, to make your time worthwhile let me
          > suggest the
          > following:
          >
          > tell us specific things about your project so
          > that we
          > can understand why it failed
          >
          > What XP practices were you following? What were the
          > problems? Why was
          > the project unsuccessful? Why do you attribute its
          > failure to XP? etc.
          >
          > Forrest uttered in a pompous tone:
          > > Honestly my hands on experience with XP has proven
          > to bring a
          > > software development house to level 0 CMM. And if
          > you don't know what
          > > CMM is then I pity the fool that pairs with you.
          > >
          > > Not that it can't work, it must be replaced.
          >
          > XP is a quite disciplined approach. It requires
          > commitment to its
          > rules and practices. However, I think Agile
          > Processes like XP, and
          > the concepts of the CMM process framework are
          > orthogonal.
          >
          > XP is a self-organizing agile process not a
          > "repeatable and defined"
          > Taylor-like mechanistic process. Quite frankly the
          > CMM grade obtained
          > for defined sequenced step-wise processes,
          > documentation, committees and
          > roles is completely irrelevant to the goals of XP
          > and Scrum which are:
          >
          > * Business Value delivered as Software to
          > increase
          > Customer Satisfaction (we care about our
          > customers best interests)
          > * Human comfort for the members of the team
          > (we care about people)
          > * Software Quality measured in terms of the
          > satisfaction of our
          > customers needs as delivered by the software
          > we produce (we care
          > about the software we produce)
          >
          > To achieve these goals, XP relies on the application
          > of
          > organizational patterns, the XP practices, to
          > generate the day-to-day
          > process. For example, Stand-Up meetings, Continuous
          > Integration,
          > Testing Driven Development, and On-Site Customer,
          > generate most
          > of the daily work. Pairs then self-organize to do
          > any work that
          > is required to accomplish their goals. This is
          > different
          > than blindly following a process. Therefore in XP,
          > the
          > process is a second order effect and people and its
          > interactions
          > driven by the XP patterns are the first order
          > effect. See:
          > http://www.agilemanifesto.org for more on this.
          >
          > So trying to attach CMM grades to XP or Scrum is
          > flawed. Instead, of
          > how well-organized, how well-documented your project
          > is, or how well
          > it follows a "defined and repeatable process" you
          > should
          > ask how much business value was delivered to the
          > customer, how
          > well your developers feel working for the project,
          > and how
          > good your software is in terms of meeting the needs
          > of you
          > customer.
          >
          > In my experience, if you follow the practices
          > faithfully and correctly
          > and your team has an appropriate skill level to
          > operate in the project,
          > then XP works most of the time,
          >
          > - Mike
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to:
          > extremeprogramming@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          >
          > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to:
          > scrumdevelopment@...
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of
          > Service.
          >
          >


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        • Laurent Bossavit
          ... Nobody goes there anymore, it s always too crowded.
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 25 7:54 AM
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            > Thanks for posting it over here. I'm on the xp list but it's too noisy
            > for me to read much of it.

            Nobody goes there anymore, it's always too crowded.
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