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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum Master vs Scrum Coach

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  • Adam Sroka
    Hi Joshua: I was hoping that I was NOT adding to your confusion earlier, but let me try again: 1) Agile Coach is a very broad term used by a lot of different
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 11 5:37 PM
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      Hi Joshua:

      I was hoping that I was NOT adding to your confusion earlier, but let me try again: 

      1) Agile Coach is a very broad term used by a lot of different people in a lot of different ways. I am employed as one, but if you put a dozen of us in a room it might take some time for us to agree what was meant by it. 

      2) The definition I gave earlier was an attempt to convey what I understood coach to mean in a very broad sense. That is to say that my definition of coach applies to Agile coaching, Scrum coaching, personal coaching, sports coaching, etc. That definition is: a coach is someone who helps both teams and individuals to excel by training them *in the context in which the work is done* (i.e. NOT in a classroom or at a conference.) 

      3) In that very broad sense it is true that a good ScrumMaster is also a coach, but we have a problem…

      4) The problem is that the Scrum Alliance has a certification for ScrumMasters and a separate certification for Scrum Coaches. These two certification are looking at very different things. The former is really only about a rudimentary knowledge of Scrum. The latter is about a whole host of skills that go well beyond what is strictly necessary to be effective as a ScrumMaster. 

      So, when we are talking purely about Scrum it is important to distinguish Scrum Coach from ScrumMaster because these are separate certifications, even though it is true that a ScrumMaster is a kind of coach in the broader sense. 

      In the larger Agile community coach can also imply a set of skills that is perhaps broader and deeper than what is required to be an effective ScrumMaster, but also might be quite different than what the Scrum Alliance is certifying by calling you a CSC. 

      I hope that helps. 

      On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
       

      Hello,


      Another theoritical question here so I can get a solid grounding. 

      I read a book title "Agile Coaching" by Rachel Davies, and somewhere in that book she is implying that Scrum Master is an Agile Coach in Agile terminologies. That is why I made my own conclusion that:
      Agile Coach == Scrum Master == Scrum Coach

      In another thread, it seems that Scrum Master and Scrum Coach are two different roles. It also seems that Scrum Coach != Agile Coach? Can somebody assist me on specifying the differences between Scrum Coach and Scrum Master? And why Scrum Coach is not the same as Agile Coach? I am so confused with the many terminologies in Scrum and Agile world ;-(

      Thank you for your kind assistance and support.


      Kind regards,
      Joshua.
      --
      @jpartogi


    • Jean Richardson
      Joshua - Here is, also, another way of defining the difference between a ScrumMaster and Scrum Coach: Scrum coaching is a combination of mentoring and personal
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 11 9:18 PM
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        Joshua –

         

        Here is, also, another way of defining the difference between a ScrumMaster and Scrum Coach:

         

        Scrum coaching is a combination of mentoring and personal coaching that draws practices from these two disciplines while restricting its scope to the Scrum context.  In order for Scrum to function well, the roles and rules of Scrum must be understood, honored, and in play on the Scrum Team; however, in order for this to happen, a range of related personnel, organizational, and even industry concerns must often be addressed.  The Scrum Coach assists the Scrum Team, generally through the means of strengthening the ScrumMaster in his or her role, to adopt Scrum in the context of their organization. 

         

        You might also take a look at Lyssa Adkins’ book Coaching Agile Teams.

         

        n  Jean

         

        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Sroka
        Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 5:38 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum Master vs Scrum Coach

         

         

        Hi Joshua:

         

        I was hoping that I was NOT adding to your confusion earlier, but let me try again: 

         

        1) Agile Coach is a very broad term used by a lot of different people in a lot of different ways. I am employed as one, but if you put a dozen of us in a room it might take some time for us to agree what was meant by it. 

         

        2) The definition I gave earlier was an attempt to convey what I understood coach to mean in a very broad sense. That is to say that my definition of coach applies to Agile coaching, Scrum coaching, personal coaching, sports coaching, etc. That definition is: a coach is someone who helps both teams and individuals to excel by training them *in the context in which the work is done* (i.e. NOT in a classroom or at a conference.) 

         

        3) In that very broad sense it is true that a good ScrumMaster is also a coach, but we have a problem…

         

        4) The problem is that the Scrum Alliance has a certification for ScrumMasters and a separate certification for Scrum Coaches. These two certification are looking at very different things. The former is really only about a rudimentary knowledge of Scrum. The latter is about a whole host of skills that go well beyond what is strictly necessary to be effective as a ScrumMaster. 

         

        So, when we are talking purely about Scrum it is important to distinguish Scrum Coach from ScrumMaster because these are separate certifications, even though it is true that a ScrumMaster is a kind of coach in the broader sense. 

         

        In the larger Agile community coach can also imply a set of skills that is perhaps broader and deeper than what is required to be an effective ScrumMaster, but also might be quite different than what the Scrum Alliance is certifying by calling you a CSC. 

         

        I hope that helps. 

        On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:

         

        Hello,

         

        Another theoritical question here so I can get a solid grounding. 

         

        I read a book title "Agile Coaching" by Rachel Davies, and somewhere in that book she is implying that Scrum Master is an Agile Coach in Agile terminologies. That is why I made my own conclusion that:

        Agile Coach == Scrum Master == Scrum Coach

         

        In another thread, it seems that Scrum Master and Scrum Coach are two different roles. It also seems that Scrum Coach != Agile Coach? Can somebody assist me on specifying the differences between Scrum Coach and Scrum Master? And why Scrum Coach is not the same as Agile Coach? I am so confused with the many terminologies in Scrum and Agile world ;-(

         

        Thank you for your kind assistance and support.

         

         

        Kind regards,

        Joshua.
        --
        @jpartogi

         

      • Joshua Partogi
        Hi Jean, So Scrum Coach is the next level of ScrumMaster? CMIIW. Kind regards, Joshua. ... -- @jpartogi Hi Jean, So Scrum Coach is the next level of
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 11 10:23 PM
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          Hi Jean,

          So Scrum Coach is the next level of ScrumMaster? CMIIW.

          Kind regards,
          Joshua.

          On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 2:18 PM, Jean Richardson <jean@...> wrote:
           

          Joshua –

           

          Here is, also, another way of defining the difference between a ScrumMaster and Scrum Coach:

           

          Scrum coaching is a combination of mentoring and personal coaching that draws practices from these two disciplines while restricting its scope to the Scrum context.  In order for Scrum to function well, the roles and rules of Scrum must be understood, honored, and in play on the Scrum Team; however, in order for this to happen, a range of related personnel, organizational, and even industry concerns must often be addressed.  The Scrum Coach assists the Scrum Team, generally through the means of strengthening the ScrumMaster in his or her role, to adopt Scrum in the context of their organization. 

           

          You might also take a look at Lyssa Adkins’ book Coaching Agile Teams.

           

          n  Jean

           

          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Sroka
          Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 5:38 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum Master vs Scrum Coach

           

           

          Hi Joshua:

           

          I was hoping that I was NOT adding to your confusion earlier, but let me try again: 

           

          1) Agile Coach is a very broad term used by a lot of different people in a lot of different ways. I am employed as one, but if you put a dozen of us in a room it might take some time for us to agree what was meant by it. 

           

          2) The definition I gave earlier was an attempt to convey what I understood coach to mean in a very broad sense. That is to say that my definition of coach applies to Agile coaching, Scrum coaching, personal coaching, sports coaching, etc. That definition is: a coach is someone who helps both teams and individuals to excel by training them *in the context in which the work is done* (i.e. NOT in a classroom or at a conference.) 

           

          3) In that very broad sense it is true that a good ScrumMaster is also a coach, but we have a problem…

           

          4) The problem is that the Scrum Alliance has a certification for ScrumMasters and a separate certification for Scrum Coaches. These two certification are looking at very different things. The former is really only about a rudimentary knowledge of Scrum. The latter is about a whole host of skills that go well beyond what is strictly necessary to be effective as a ScrumMaster. 

           

          So, when we are talking purely about Scrum it is important to distinguish Scrum Coach from ScrumMaster because these are separate certifications, even though it is true that a ScrumMaster is a kind of coach in the broader sense. 

           

          In the larger Agile community coach can also imply a set of skills that is perhaps broader and deeper than what is required to be an effective ScrumMaster, but also might be quite different than what the Scrum Alliance is certifying by calling you a CSC. 

           

          I hope that helps. 

          On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:

           

          Hello,

           

          Another theoritical question here so I can get a solid grounding. 

           

          I read a book title "Agile Coaching" by Rachel Davies, and somewhere in that book she is implying that Scrum Master is an Agile Coach in Agile terminologies. That is why I made my own conclusion that:

          Agile Coach == Scrum Master == Scrum Coach

           

          In another thread, it seems that Scrum Master and Scrum Coach are two different roles. It also seems that Scrum Coach != Agile Coach? Can somebody assist me on specifying the differences between Scrum Coach and Scrum Master? And why Scrum Coach is not the same as Agile Coach? I am so confused with the many terminologies in Scrum and Agile world ;-(

           

          Thank you for your kind assistance and support.

           

           

          Kind regards,

          Joshua.
          --
          @jpartogi

           




          --
          @jpartogi
        • jean@azuregate.net
          No--no more than SM is the next level of Team member. A SM is a servant leader and an SC is a servant leader of a slightly different sort/purpose. Sent from my
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 11 11:17 PM
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            No--no more than SM is the next level of Team member. A SM is a servant leader and an SC is a servant leader of a slightly different sort/purpose.

            Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


            From: Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...>
            Sender: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 15:23:45 +1000
            To: <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
            ReplyTo: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum Master vs Scrum Coach

             

            Hi Jean,


            So Scrum Coach is the next level of ScrumMaster? CMIIW.

            Kind regards,
            Joshua.

            On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 2:18 PM, Jean Richardson <jean@...> wrote:
             

            Joshua –

             

            Here is, also, another way of defining the difference between a ScrumMaster and Scrum Coach:

             

            Scrum coaching is a combination of mentoring and personal coaching that draws practices from these two disciplines while restricting its scope to the Scrum context.  In order for Scrum to function well, the roles and rules of Scrum must be understood, honored, and in play on the Scrum Team; however, in order for this to happen, a range of related personnel, organizational, and even industry concerns must often be addressed.  The Scrum Coach assists the Scrum Team, generally through the means of strengthening the ScrumMaster in his or her role, to adopt Scrum in the context of their organization. 

             

            You might also take a look at Lyssa Adkins’ book Coaching Agile Teams.

             

            n  Jean

             

            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Sroka
            Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 5:38 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum Master vs Scrum Coach

             

             

            Hi Joshua:

             

            I was hoping that I was NOT adding to your confusion earlier, but let me try again: 

             

            1) Agile Coach is a very broad term used by a lot of different people in a lot of different ways. I am employed as one, but if you put a dozen of us in a room it might take some time for us to agree what was meant by it. 

             

            2) The definition I gave earlier was an attempt to convey what I understood coach to mean in a very broad sense. That is to say that my definition of coach applies to Agile coaching, Scrum coaching, personal coaching, sports coaching, etc. That definition is: a coach is someone who helps both teams and individuals to excel by training them *in the context in which the work is done* (i.e. NOT in a classroom or at a conference.) 

             

            3) In that very broad sense it is true that a good ScrumMaster is also a coach, but we have a problem…

             

            4) The problem is that the Scrum Alliance has a certification for ScrumMasters and a separate certification for Scrum Coaches. These two certification are looking at very different things. The former is really only about a rudimentary knowledge of Scrum. The latter is about a whole host of skills that go well beyond what is strictly necessary to be effective as a ScrumMaster. 

             

            So, when we are talking purely about Scrum it is important to distinguish Scrum Coach from ScrumMaster because these are separate certifications, even though it is true that a ScrumMaster is a kind of coach in the broader sense. 

             

            In the larger Agile community coach can also imply a set of skills that is perhaps broader and deeper than what is required to be an effective ScrumMaster, but also might be quite different than what the Scrum Alliance is certifying by calling you a CSC. 

             

            I hope that helps. 

            On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:

             

            Hello,

             

            Another theoritical question here so I can get a solid grounding. 

             

            I read a book title "Agile Coaching" by Rachel Davies, and somewhere in that book she is implying that Scrum Master is an Agile Coach in Agile terminologies. That is why I made my own conclusion that:

            Agile Coach == Scrum Master == Scrum Coach

             

            In another thread, it seems that Scrum Master and Scrum Coach are two different roles. It also seems that Scrum Coach != Agile Coach? Can somebody assist me on specifying the differences between Scrum Coach and Scrum Master? And why Scrum Coach is not the same as Agile Coach? I am so confused with the many terminologies in Scrum and Agile world ;-(

             

            Thank you for your kind assistance and support.

             

             

            Kind regards,

            Joshua.
            --
            @jpartogi

             




            --
            @jpartogi
          • jean@azuregate.net
            Hmm. To amend my last message, I heartily agree with earlier advice in this thread that Scrum Coaches should have prior experience as ScrumMasters. Sent from
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 11 11:20 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Hmm. To amend my last message, I heartily agree with earlier advice in this thread that Scrum Coaches should have prior experience as ScrumMasters.

              Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


              From: Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...>
              Sender: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 15:23:45 +1000
              To: <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum Master vs Scrum Coach

               

              Hi Jean,


              So Scrum Coach is the next level of ScrumMaster? CMIIW.

              Kind regards,
              Joshua.

              On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 2:18 PM, Jean Richardson <jean@...> wrote:
               

              Joshua –

               

              Here is, also, another way of defining the difference between a ScrumMaster and Scrum Coach:

               

              Scrum coaching is a combination of mentoring and personal coaching that draws practices from these two disciplines while restricting its scope to the Scrum context.  In order for Scrum to function well, the roles and rules of Scrum must be understood, honored, and in play on the Scrum Team; however, in order for this to happen, a range of related personnel, organizational, and even industry concerns must often be addressed.  The Scrum Coach assists the Scrum Team, generally through the means of strengthening the ScrumMaster in his or her role, to adopt Scrum in the context of their organization. 

               

              You might also take a look at Lyssa Adkins’ book Coaching Agile Teams.

               

              n  Jean

               

              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Sroka
              Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 5:38 PM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum Master vs Scrum Coach

               

               

              Hi Joshua:

               

              I was hoping that I was NOT adding to your confusion earlier, but let me try again: 

               

              1) Agile Coach is a very broad term used by a lot of different people in a lot of different ways. I am employed as one, but if you put a dozen of us in a room it might take some time for us to agree what was meant by it. 

               

              2) The definition I gave earlier was an attempt to convey what I understood coach to mean in a very broad sense. That is to say that my definition of coach applies to Agile coaching, Scrum coaching, personal coaching, sports coaching, etc. That definition is: a coach is someone who helps both teams and individuals to excel by training them *in the context in which the work is done* (i.e. NOT in a classroom or at a conference.) 

               

              3) In that very broad sense it is true that a good ScrumMaster is also a coach, but we have a problem…

               

              4) The problem is that the Scrum Alliance has a certification for ScrumMasters and a separate certification for Scrum Coaches. These two certification are looking at very different things. The former is really only about a rudimentary knowledge of Scrum. The latter is about a whole host of skills that go well beyond what is strictly necessary to be effective as a ScrumMaster. 

               

              So, when we are talking purely about Scrum it is important to distinguish Scrum Coach from ScrumMaster because these are separate certifications, even though it is true that a ScrumMaster is a kind of coach in the broader sense. 

               

              In the larger Agile community coach can also imply a set of skills that is perhaps broader and deeper than what is required to be an effective ScrumMaster, but also might be quite different than what the Scrum Alliance is certifying by calling you a CSC. 

               

              I hope that helps. 

              On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:

               

              Hello,

               

              Another theoritical question here so I can get a solid grounding. 

               

              I read a book title "Agile Coaching" by Rachel Davies, and somewhere in that book she is implying that Scrum Master is an Agile Coach in Agile terminologies. That is why I made my own conclusion that:

              Agile Coach == Scrum Master == Scrum Coach

               

              In another thread, it seems that Scrum Master and Scrum Coach are two different roles. It also seems that Scrum Coach != Agile Coach? Can somebody assist me on specifying the differences between Scrum Coach and Scrum Master? And why Scrum Coach is not the same as Agile Coach? I am so confused with the many terminologies in Scrum and Agile world ;-(

               

              Thank you for your kind assistance and support.

               

               

              Kind regards,

              Joshua.
              --
              @jpartogi

               




              --
              @jpartogi
            • Adam Sroka
              Right, but you are still right to say that it is not the next step. Industry has conditioned us to think this way, e.g. manager is the next step after senior
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 11 11:24 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                Right, but you are still right to say that it is not the next step. Industry has conditioned us to think this way, e.g. manager is the "next step" after senior developer. There are good reasons to change job roles, but linear thinking isn't one of them. 

                On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:20 PM, <jean@...> wrote:
                 

                Hmm. To amend my last message, I heartily agree with earlier advice in this thread that Scrum Coaches should have prior experience as ScrumMasters.

                Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


                From: Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...>
                Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 15:23:45 +1000
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum Master vs Scrum Coach

                 

                Hi Jean,


                So Scrum Coach is the next level of ScrumMaster? CMIIW.

                Kind regards,
                Joshua.

                On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 2:18 PM, Jean Richardson <jean@...> wrote:
                 

                Joshua –

                 

                Here is, also, another way of defining the difference between a ScrumMaster and Scrum Coach:

                 

                Scrum coaching is a combination of mentoring and personal coaching that draws practices from these two disciplines while restricting its scope to the Scrum context.  In order for Scrum to function well, the roles and rules of Scrum must be understood, honored, and in play on the Scrum Team; however, in order for this to happen, a range of related personnel, organizational, and even industry concerns must often be addressed.  The Scrum Coach assists the Scrum Team, generally through the means of strengthening the ScrumMaster in his or her role, to adopt Scrum in the context of their organization. 

                 

                You might also take a look at Lyssa Adkins’ book Coaching Agile Teams.

                 

                n  Jean

                 

                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Sroka
                Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 5:38 PM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum Master vs Scrum Coach

                 

                 

                Hi Joshua:

                 

                I was hoping that I was NOT adding to your confusion earlier, but let me try again: 

                 

                1) Agile Coach is a very broad term used by a lot of different people in a lot of different ways. I am employed as one, but if you put a dozen of us in a room it might take some time for us to agree what was meant by it. 

                 

                2) The definition I gave earlier was an attempt to convey what I understood coach to mean in a very broad sense. That is to say that my definition of coach applies to Agile coaching, Scrum coaching, personal coaching, sports coaching, etc. That definition is: a coach is someone who helps both teams and individuals to excel by training them *in the context in which the work is done* (i.e. NOT in a classroom or at a conference.) 

                 

                3) In that very broad sense it is true that a good ScrumMaster is also a coach, but we have a problem…

                 

                4) The problem is that the Scrum Alliance has a certification for ScrumMasters and a separate certification for Scrum Coaches. These two certification are looking at very different things. The former is really only about a rudimentary knowledge of Scrum. The latter is about a whole host of skills that go well beyond what is strictly necessary to be effective as a ScrumMaster. 

                 

                So, when we are talking purely about Scrum it is important to distinguish Scrum Coach from ScrumMaster because these are separate certifications, even though it is true that a ScrumMaster is a kind of coach in the broader sense. 

                 

                In the larger Agile community coach can also imply a set of skills that is perhaps broader and deeper than what is required to be an effective ScrumMaster, but also might be quite different than what the Scrum Alliance is certifying by calling you a CSC. 

                 

                I hope that helps. 

                On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:

                 

                Hello,

                 

                Another theoritical question here so I can get a solid grounding. 

                 

                I read a book title "Agile Coaching" by Rachel Davies, and somewhere in that book she is implying that Scrum Master is an Agile Coach in Agile terminologies. That is why I made my own conclusion that:

                Agile Coach == Scrum Master == Scrum Coach

                 

                In another thread, it seems that Scrum Master and Scrum Coach are two different roles. It also seems that Scrum Coach != Agile Coach? Can somebody assist me on specifying the differences between Scrum Coach and Scrum Master? And why Scrum Coach is not the same as Agile Coach? I am so confused with the many terminologies in Scrum and Agile world ;-(

                 

                Thank you for your kind assistance and support.

                 

                 

                Kind regards,

                Joshua.
                --
                @jpartogi

                 




                --
                @jpartogi


              • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                Joshua, I ll take a crack at this.  There is nothing official about these terms except that Scrum Master is well defined in the Scrum Guide Scrum Master - the
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 12 8:12 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Joshua,

                  I'll take a crack at this.  There is nothing official about these terms except that Scrum Master is well defined in the Scrum Guide

                  Scrum Master - the role as defined in the Scrum Guide. 

                  A Scrum Master brings value to an organization in these ways:
                  • A good Scrum Master helps the org adopt and progress towards good Scrum in a feasible way.
                  • A good Scrum Master helps the Scrum Team deliver higher quality, higher value software faster, by maximizing the benefits received from Scrum.
                  Scrum Coach - One who can effectively teach and coach all roles as defined in the Scrum Guide(SM, PO, Dev, org).  Ideally, IMO, the Scrum Coach will have actual past experience playing all three of the main roles(or very similar roles) somewhere in their background.  Another very important trait of a Scrum Coach is experience coaching in a variety of organizational settings.  In this way, the Scrum Coach brings best practices about Scrum adoption to the organization. No certification is required to do this.  I could get into the specifics about what I think about the SA Scrum Coach certification (advantages and disadvantages), but there are a lot of Scrum Alliance certified people on this list and I'm not sure I have the time to take them all on at once.  Maybe some day.  :-)  In my ideal world, a Scrum Coach is responsible for taking the Scrum Maturity of one or more Scrum teams to a significantly higher level.

                  A Scrum Coach brings value to an organization in these ways:
                  • Utilizing broader experiences and adoption best practices, the Scrum Coach helps the organization and (often multiple) Scrum Teams adopt and progress towards good Scrum in a feasible way. 
                  • A Scrum Coach progresses an organization's Scrum Maturity much faster and more efficiently than someone with more limited experiences or someone who is playing solely a Scrum Master role.
                  • Helps (often multiple) Scrum Teams deliver higher quality, higher value software faster, by maximizing the benefits received from Scrum.

                  Agile Coach - as others have said, this is a very broad and not well defined term.  Sadly, the "Agile" term itself is a broad and vague term to many people in the business, so there is probably very little consensus on what this term(Agile Coach) means.  IMO, what it generally means is someone very similar to a Scrum Coach, who is also knowledgeable (and preferably experienced) about other Agile instances such as AgileUP, XP, Crystal, etc.  In some cases, it simply means that the coach doesn't want to limit the marketing of themselves to Scrum teams only.  In other cases, I think it means that the Coach doesn't like the highly disciplines Agile instances such as Scrum and XP and instead prefers to mix and match Agile-like techniques and roll their own Agile.  Personally, I've never heard of or seen this latter form of an Agile Coach be very successful.
                   
                  -------
                  Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                  Experienced Scrum Coach
                  Currently Seeking engagement as Scrum Coach or Scrum Master in Denver area
                  My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

                  From: Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...>
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 6:16 PM
                  Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum Master vs Scrum Coach



                  Hello,

                  Another theoritical question here so I can get a solid grounding. 

                  I read a book title "Agile Coaching" by Rachel Davies, and somewhere in that book she is implying that Scrum Master is an Agile Coach in Agile terminologies. That is why I made my own conclusion that:
                  Agile Coach == Scrum Master == Scrum Coach

                  In another thread, it seems that Scrum Master and Scrum Coach are two different roles. It also seems that Scrum Coach != Agile Coach? Can somebody assist me on specifying the differences between Scrum Coach and Scrum Master? And why Scrum Coach is not the same as Agile Coach? I am so confused with the many terminologies in Scrum and Agile world ;-(

                  Thank you for your kind assistance and support.


                  Kind regards,
                  Joshua.
                  --
                  @jpartogi




                • Michael Wollin
                  Great answer, Charles! I might add (or assert) that an Agile Coach might also need to be versed in Lean/Kanban, as this is emerging (especially for engineering
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 8 12:46 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Great answer, Charles! I might add (or assert) that an Agile Coach might also need to be versed in Lean/Kanban, as this is emerging (especially for engineering support teams).  

                    I hope I'm not opening a can of worms. :)

                    Michael

                    On Aug 12, 2011, at 11:12 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I wrote:

                    Joshua,

                    I'll take a crack at this.  There is nothing official about these terms except that Scrum Master is well defined in the Scrum Guide

                    Scrum Master - the role as defined in the Scrum Guide.  

                    A Scrum Master brings value to an organization in these ways:
                    • A good Scrum Master helps the org adopt and progress towards good Scrum in a feasible way.
                    • A good Scrum Master helps the Scrum Team deliver higher quality, higher value software faster, by maximizing the benefits received from Scrum.
                    Scrum Coach - One who can effectively teach and coach all roles as defined in the Scrum Guide(SM, PO, Dev, org).  Ideally, IMO, the Scrum Coach will have actual past experience playing all three of the main roles(or very similar roles) somewhere in their background.  Another very important trait of a Scrum Coach is experience coaching in a variety of organizational settings.  In this way, the Scrum Coach brings best practices about Scrum adoption to the organization. No certification is required to do this.  I could get into the specifics about what I think about the SA Scrum Coach certification (advantages and disadvantages), but there are a lot of Scrum Alliance certified people on this list and I'm not sure I have the time to take them all on at once.  Maybe some day.  :-)  In my ideal world, a Scrum Coach is responsible for taking the Scrum Maturity of one or more Scrum teams to a significantly higher level.

                    A Scrum Coach brings value to an organization in these ways:
                    • Utilizing broader experiences and adoption best practices, the Scrum Coach helps the organization and (often multiple) Scrum Teams adopt and progress towards good Scrum in a feasible way.  
                    • A Scrum Coach progresses an organization's Scrum Maturity much faster and more efficiently than someone with more limited experiences or someone who is playing solely a Scrum Master role.
                    • Helps (often multiple) Scrum Teams deliver higher quality, higher value software faster, by maximizing the benefits received from Scrum.

                    Agile Coach - as others have said, this is a very broad and not well defined term.  Sadly, the "Agile" term itself is a broad and vague term to many people in the business, so there is probably very little consensus on what this term(Agile Coach) means.  IMO, what it generally means is someone very similar to a Scrum Coach, who is also knowledgeable (and preferably experienced) about other Agile instances such as AgileUP, XP, Crystal, etc.  In some cases, it simply means that the coach doesn't want to limit the marketing of themselves to Scrum teams only.  In other cases, I think it means that the Coach doesn't like the highly disciplines Agile instances such as Scrum and XP and instead prefers to mix and match Agile-like techniques and roll their own Agile.  Personally, I've never heard of or seen this latter form of an Agile Coach be very successful.
                     
                    -------
                    Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                    Experienced Scrum Coach
                    Currently Seeking engagement as Scrum Coach or Scrum Master in Denver area

                  • avinap77
                    Hi, Definitely worth reading Lyssa Adkins Coaching Agile Teams . You might also like to read this post about the role of an agile coach:
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 9 2:25 AM
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                      Hi,

                      Definitely worth reading Lyssa Adkins' "Coaching Agile Teams".

                      You might also like to read this post about the role of an agile coach:
                      http://www.agilejournal.com/articles/columns/column-articles/1917-the-role-of-the-agile-coach

                      HTH,
                      Avi







                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello,
                      >
                      > Another theoritical question here so I can get a solid grounding.
                      >
                      > I read a book title "Agile Coaching" by Rachel Davies, and somewhere in that
                      > book she is implying that Scrum Master is an Agile Coach in Agile
                      > terminologies. That is why I made my own conclusion that:
                      > Agile Coach == Scrum Master == Scrum Coach
                      >
                      > In another thread, it seems that Scrum Master and Scrum Coach are two
                      > different roles. It also seems that Scrum Coach != Agile Coach? Can somebody
                      > assist me on specifying the differences between Scrum Coach and Scrum
                      > Master? And why Scrum Coach is not the same as Agile Coach? I am so confused
                      > with the many terminologies in Scrum and Agile world ;-(
                      >
                      > Thank you for your kind assistance and support.
                      >
                      >
                      > Kind regards,
                      > Joshua.
                      > --
                      > @jpartogi
                      >
                    • jessicacp23
                      Has anyone seen this IEEE study from Oslo that shows that Kanban outperform Scrum? http://www.computer.org/csdl/mags/so/preprint/mso2012990160-abs.html Many
                      Message 10 of 11 , Aug 10 9:53 AM
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                        Has anyone seen this IEEE study from Oslo that shows that Kanban outperform Scrum?

                        http://www.computer.org/csdl/mags/so/preprint/mso2012990160-abs.html

                        Many claims about the usefulness of various processes or methods, such as Scrum and Kanban, have been stated in agile and lean software communities. However, these claims are rarely supported by objective data or empirical investigations. In contrast, this article aims to demonstrate that the effect of processes or methods (here: Scrum versus Kanban) can be evaluated and compared on the basis of objective data. We analyzed data of more than 12,000 work items collected over the years 2009-2011 in a medium-sized software company. The company used Scrum from 2007 to autumn 2010, at which point they changed to Kanban. By using Kanban instead of Scrum, the company almost halved the lead time, reduced the number of weighted bugs by 10%, improved productivity by 21% for PBIs, and reduced productivity by 11% for bugs. Consequently, Kanban seems to outperform Scrum in this company. However, the results should be interpreted with caution because the use of Kanban succeeded the use of Scrum. To acquire more knowledge about the performance of different agile or lean methods, scholars should conduct similar studies in different organizations in different application domains and with people of different cultures and competences.

                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Michael Wollin <yahoo@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Great answer, Charles! I might add (or assert) that an Agile Coach might also need to be versed in Lean/Kanban, as this is emerging (especially for engineering support teams).
                        >
                        > I hope I'm not opening a can of worms. :)
                        >
                        > Michael
                        >
                        > On Aug 12, 2011, at 11:12 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I wrote:
                        >
                        > > Joshua,
                        > >
                        > > I'll take a crack at this. There is nothing official about these terms except that Scrum Master is well defined in the Scrum Guide
                        > >
                        > > Scrum Master - the role as defined in the Scrum Guide.
                        > >
                        > > A Scrum Master brings value to an organization in these ways:
                        > > A good Scrum Master helps the org adopt and progress towards good Scrum in a feasible way.
                        > > A good Scrum Master helps the Scrum Team deliver higher quality, higher value software faster, by maximizing the benefits received from Scrum.
                        > > Scrum Coach - One who can effectively teach and coach all roles as defined in the Scrum Guide(SM, PO, Dev, org). Ideally, IMO, the Scrum Coach will have actual past experience playing all three of the main roles(or very similar roles) somewhere in their background. Another very important trait of a Scrum Coach is experience coaching in a variety of organizational settings. In this way, the Scrum Coach brings best practices about Scrum adoption to the organization. No certification is required to do this. I could get into the specifics about what I think about the SA Scrum Coach certification (advantages and disadvantages), but there are a lot of Scrum Alliance certified people on this list and I'm not sure I have the time to take them all on at once. Maybe some day. :-) In my ideal world, a Scrum Coach is responsible for taking the Scrum Maturity of one or more Scrum teams to a significantly higher level.
                        > >
                        > > A Scrum Coach brings value to an organization in these ways:
                        > > Utilizing broader experiences and adoption best practices, the Scrum Coach helps the organization and (often multiple) Scrum Teams adopt and progress towards good Scrum in a feasible way.
                        > > A Scrum Coach progresses an organization's Scrum Maturity much faster and more efficiently than someone with more limited experiences or someone who is playing solely a Scrum Master role.
                        > > Helps (often multiple) Scrum Teams deliver higher quality, higher value software faster, by maximizing the benefits received from Scrum.
                        > >
                        > > Agile Coach - as others have said, this is a very broad and not well defined term. Sadly, the "Agile" term itself is a broad and vague term to many people in the business, so there is probably very little consensus on what this term(Agile Coach) means. IMO, what it generally means is someone very similar to a Scrum Coach, who is also knowledgeable (and preferably experienced) about other Agile instances such as AgileUP, XP, Crystal, etc. In some cases, it simply means that the coach doesn't want to limit the marketing of themselves to Scrum teams only. In other cases, I think it means that the Coach doesn't like the highly disciplines Agile instances such as Scrum and XP and instead prefers to mix and match Agile-like techniques and roll their own Agile. Personally, I've never heard of or seen this latter form of an Agile Coach be very successful.
                        > >
                        > > -------
                        > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                        > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                        > > Currently Seeking engagement as Scrum Coach or Scrum Master in Denver area
                        > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                        >
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