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Re: [scrumdevelopment] User story for purely visual feedback

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  • Adam Sroka
    Draw a picture. There is no reason that stories must be represented by words. Just remember that the conversation and confirmation are as important as the
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 29, 2011
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      Draw a picture. There is no reason that stories must be represented by words. Just remember that the conversation and confirmation are as important as the card.

      On Jul 29, 2011 2:26 PM, "curiouschimp" <bhy@...> wrote:
      > Hey all,
      >
      > Im trying to write a user story that is directed at pure art direction. We got feedback on a game that the art style was too sterile and cold, so I wrote a user story:
      >
      > Player sees a game world that is less sterile and cold
      >
      > It's not very granular, like "make isometric world view less sterile" or "main action UI less sterile".
      >
      > Any feedback on how to best represent overarching art tasks as stories?
      >
    • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
      I would argue that the conversation and confirmation are more important than the card.  (tastes great!  less filling!)  :-) As to the OP, it s fine to
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 29, 2011
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        I would argue that the conversation and confirmation are more important than the card.  (tastes great!  less filling!)  :-)

        As to the OP, it's fine to describe a User Story as you did because what actually gets implemented will be the result of conversation and confirmation.  Just so long as we understand each other --- you did not write a User Story there -- you wrote a description of the User Story.

        User Story = Card(description) + Conversations + Confirmations

        Now, if you're a PO, you need to get more specific about what you want -- that may mean you get feedback from others(artists, developers, the like) as necessary, but if you want the developers to actually implement something, you'll have to eventually decompose the User Story into confirmations(aka Story Tests) that can be executed. (Note that executed doesn't necessarily mean automated, though automated is strongly preferable.)
         
        -------
        Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
        Experienced Scrum Coach
        My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

        From: Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...>
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 12:32 PM
        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] User story for purely visual feedback



        Draw a picture. There is no reason that stories must be represented by words. Just remember that the conversation and confirmation are as important as the card.
        On Jul 29, 2011 2:26 PM, "curiouschimp" <bhy@...> wrote:
        > Hey all,
        >
        > Im trying to write a user story that is directed at pure art direction. We got feedback on a game that the art style was too sterile and cold, so I wrote a user story:
        >
        > Player sees a game world that is less sterile and cold
        >
        > It's not very granular, like "make isometric world view less sterile" or "main action UI less sterile".
        >
        > Any feedback on how to best represent overarching art tasks as stories?
        >




      • Gary Brown
        Hey, curiouschimp! Player sees a game world that is less sterile and cold How will you know when it is done? Constraint: you can t use less sterile and
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 29, 2011
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          Hey, curiouschimp!

          "Player sees a game world that is less sterile and cold"

          How will you know when it is done? Constraint: you can't use "less
          sterile and cold" in the answer.

          Can you identify one or more things that would make the game world
          less sterile and cold. Can you write a story for that?

          Is the game setting an operating room where open heart surgery is
          performed? Sterile and cold would be perfect for that! 8^)

          GB.



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        • curiouschimp
          Ultimately, it s going to be a call by the art director; there s going to be a lot of experimentation about color choice, objects etc. I think the uneasiness
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 29, 2011
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            Ultimately, it's going to be a call by the art director; there's going to be a lot of experimentation about color choice, objects etc. I think the uneasiness is that "it's done when it looks right" since it's really an aesthetic judgment.

            bernie

            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Gary Brown <glbrown@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hey, curiouschimp!
            >
            > "Player sees a game world that is less sterile and cold"
            >
            > How will you know when it is done? Constraint: you can't use "less
            > sterile and cold" in the answer.
            >
            > Can you identify one or more things that would make the game world
            > less sterile and cold. Can you write a story for that?
            >
            > Is the game setting an operating room where open heart surgery is
            > performed? Sterile and cold would be perfect for that! 8^)
            >
            > GB.
            >
            >
            >
            > ----------------------------------------------------------------
            > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
            >
          • Gary Brown
            Bernie, Why did you ask this question? GB. ... This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 30, 2011
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              Bernie,

              Why did you ask this question?

              GB.


              Quoting curiouschimp <bhy@...>:

              > Ultimately, it's going to be a call by the art director; there's
              > going to be a lot of experimentation about color choice, objects
              > etc. I think the uneasiness is that "it's done when it looks right"
              > since it's really an aesthetic judgment.
              >
              > bernie
              >
              > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Gary Brown <glbrown@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Hey, curiouschimp!
              >>
              >> "Player sees a game world that is less sterile and cold"
              >>
              >> How will you know when it is done? Constraint: you can't use "less
              >> sterile and cold" in the answer.
              >>
              >> Can you identify one or more things that would make the game world
              >> less sterile and cold. Can you write a story for that?
              >>
              >> Is the game setting an operating room where open heart surgery is
              >> performed? Sterile and cold would be perfect for that! 8^)
              >>
              >> GB.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
              >> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • Peter Bell
              I treat these as spike stories - nor in the sense that it s throw away code but in the sense that I can t estimate a story without a clear definition of done
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 30, 2011
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                I treat these as 'spike' stories - nor in the sense that it's throw away code but in the sense that I can't estimate a story without a clear definition of done so my rule is that if the business team can't define done in a way that is objective and testable, I get to define done and do my best and time Oxford the interactions with the art director or whoever. That way I don't get pulled into the ever-growing story issue.

                To set expectations I also educate the business team on the difference between incremental and iterate dev and make it clear we may want to multiply the regular incremental estimate by 3-4 times to have more space to iterate and refine such 'soft' stories - especially if they relate to the Core Domain.

                Sent from my iPhone

                On Jul 30, 2011, at 7:37 AM, Gary Brown <glbrown@...> wrote:

                 

                Bernie,

                Why did you ask this question?

                GB.

                Quoting curiouschimp <bhy@...>:

                > Ultimately, it's going to be a call by the art director; there's
                > going to be a lot of experimentation about color choice, objects
                > etc. I think the uneasiness is that "it's done when it looks right"
                > since it's really an aesthetic judgment.
                >
                > bernie
                >
                > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Gary Brown <glbrown@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> Hey, curiouschimp!
                >>
                >> "Player sees a game world that is less sterile and cold"
                >>
                >> How will you know when it is done? Constraint: you can't use "less
                >> sterile and cold" in the answer.
                >>
                >> Can you identify one or more things that would make the game world
                >> less sterile and cold. Can you write a story for that?
                >>
                >> Is the game setting an operating room where open heart surgery is
                >> performed? Sterile and cold would be perfect for that! 8^)
                >>
                >> GB.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> ----------------------------------------------------------
                >> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
                >>
                >
                >
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              • curiouschimp
                Trying to get a sense of how others deal with this situation, Gary... -bernie
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 30, 2011
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                  Trying to get a sense of how others deal with this situation, Gary...

                  -bernie

                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Gary Brown <glbrown@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Bernie,
                  >
                  > Why did you ask this question?
                  >
                  > GB.
                  >
                  >
                  > Quoting curiouschimp <bhy@...>:
                  >
                  > > Ultimately, it's going to be a call by the art director; there's
                  > > going to be a lot of experimentation about color choice, objects
                  > > etc. I think the uneasiness is that "it's done when it looks right"
                  > > since it's really an aesthetic judgment.
                  > >
                  > > bernie
                  > >
                  > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Gary Brown <glbrown@> wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> Hey, curiouschimp!
                  > >>
                  > >> "Player sees a game world that is less sterile and cold"
                  > >>
                  > >> How will you know when it is done? Constraint: you can't use "less
                  > >> sterile and cold" in the answer.
                  > >>
                  > >> Can you identify one or more things that would make the game world
                  > >> less sterile and cold. Can you write a story for that?
                  > >>
                  > >> Is the game setting an operating room where open heart surgery is
                  > >> performed? Sterile and cold would be perfect for that! 8^)
                  > >>
                  > >> GB.
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
                  > >> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                  > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
                  >
                • George Dinwiddie
                  Hi, Bernie, ... It s really not a Scrum question, either. Your problem is not that you don t know how to write the story, it s that you don t know what the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 30, 2011
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                    Hi, Bernie,

                    On 7/29/11 10:51 PM, curiouschimp wrote:
                    > Ultimately, it's going to be a call by the art director; there's
                    > going to be a lot of experimentation about color choice, objects etc.
                    > I think the uneasiness is that "it's done when it looks right" since
                    > it's really an aesthetic judgment.

                    It's really not a Scrum question, either. Your problem is not that you
                    don't know how to write the story, it's that you don't know what the
                    story means.

                    I hope that your art director is of the highly collaborative sort, who
                    will work in the team room, pairing with various people looking for the
                    magic that makes "the game world less sterile and cold." You need super
                    quick feedback on what things are in the right direction and what are
                    not. There needs to be a huge amount of back-and-forth communication.
                    End of the sprint is WAY too little, too late.

                    Worry about how to fit it into the Scrum framework later. You've got a
                    more fundamental problem to deal with.

                    - George

                    --
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                    Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                    Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  • curiouschimp
                    Thanks. Good feedback. bernie
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 30, 2011
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                      Thanks. Good feedback.

                      bernie

                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi, Bernie,
                      >
                      > On 7/29/11 10:51 PM, curiouschimp wrote:
                      > > Ultimately, it's going to be a call by the art director; there's
                      > > going to be a lot of experimentation about color choice, objects etc.
                      > > I think the uneasiness is that "it's done when it looks right" since
                      > > it's really an aesthetic judgment.
                      >
                      > It's really not a Scrum question, either. Your problem is not that you
                      > don't know how to write the story, it's that you don't know what the
                      > story means.
                      >
                      > I hope that your art director is of the highly collaborative sort, who
                      > will work in the team room, pairing with various people looking for the
                      > magic that makes "the game world less sterile and cold." You need super
                      > quick feedback on what things are in the right direction and what are
                      > not. There needs to be a huge amount of back-and-forth communication.
                      > End of the sprint is WAY too little, too late.
                      >
                      > Worry about how to fit it into the Scrum framework later. You've got a
                      > more fundamental problem to deal with.
                      >
                      > - George
                      >
                      > --
                      > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                      > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                      > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                      > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                    • George Dinwiddie
                      Please let us know how things work out. - George ... -- ... * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com Software Development
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 30, 2011
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                        Please let us know how things work out.

                        - George

                        On 7/30/11 5:57 PM, curiouschimp wrote:
                        > Thanks. Good feedback.
                        >
                        > bernie
                        >
                        > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, George Dinwiddie<lists@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> Hi, Bernie,
                        >>
                        >> On 7/29/11 10:51 PM, curiouschimp wrote:
                        >>> Ultimately, it's going to be a call by the art director; there's
                        >>> going to be a lot of experimentation about color choice, objects etc.
                        >>> I think the uneasiness is that "it's done when it looks right" since
                        >>> it's really an aesthetic judgment.
                        >>
                        >> It's really not a Scrum question, either. Your problem is not that you
                        >> don't know how to write the story, it's that you don't know what the
                        >> story means.
                        >>
                        >> I hope that your art director is of the highly collaborative sort, who
                        >> will work in the team room, pairing with various people looking for the
                        >> magic that makes "the game world less sterile and cold." You need super
                        >> quick feedback on what things are in the right direction and what are
                        >> not. There needs to be a huge amount of back-and-forth communication.
                        >> End of the sprint is WAY too little, too late.
                        >>
                        >> Worry about how to fit it into the Scrum framework later. You've got a
                        >> more fundamental problem to deal with.
                        >>
                        >> - George
                        >>
                        >> --
                        >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                        >> * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                        >> Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                        >> Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                        >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                        * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                        Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                        Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                      • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                        Bernie, Depending on a specialist or approval from outside of the Scrum team is a bad smell, but sometimes things are beyond your control, so I m going to
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 4, 2011
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                          Bernie,

                          Depending on a specialist or approval from outside of the Scrum team is a bad smell, but sometimes things are beyond your control, so I'm going to ignore that bad smell and assume that the situation is beyond the control of your team.

                          Because this is a somewhat vague situation, my story would be written something like as follows:

                          Card: Main Action UI improvement -- "less sterile and cold"

                          Conversations:  Obviously you'd probably want to have a few conversations with the art director, PO, and other interested persons.

                          Confirmations (aka Story Tests)
                          1.  Test that the new main action UI (assuming your team knows exactly what that defines) has been approved by the art director.
                          2.  Test that the new main action UI has been approved by the PO.  (In reality, all stories should be approved by the PO so many teams don't write this story test explicitly, but I did so that you understand that from a Scrum perspective it must be approved by both.)

                          Hope that helps.  This kind of story is a corner case, so it's a really good question you pose.

                          If the response time for approvals from the art director is somewhat unpredictable or longer than a few days, I would slice off a spike that gets the approval of the new UI design in a spike story first, then a follow on story to implement the new UI.
                           
                          -------
                          Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                          Experienced Scrum Coach
                          My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

                          From: curiouschimp <bhy@...>
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 8:51 PM
                          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: User story for purely visual feedback

                          Ultimately, it's going to be a call by the art director; there's going to be a lot of experimentation about color choice, objects etc. I think the uneasiness is that "it's done when it looks right" since it's really an aesthetic judgment.

                          bernie

                          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Gary Brown <glbrown@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hey, curiouschimp!
                          >
                          > "Player sees a game world that is less sterile and cold"
                          >
                          > How will you know when it is done?  Constraint: you can't use "less 
                          > sterile and cold" in the answer.
                          >
                          > Can you identify one or more things that would make the game world 
                          > less sterile and cold.  Can you write a story for that?
                          >
                          > Is the game setting an operating room where open heart surgery is 
                          > performed?  Sterile and cold would be perfect for that!  8^)
                          >
                          > GB.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                          > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
                          >




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