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Think waterfall is dead?

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  • Michael James
    I sometimes hear people say it s irrelevant to discuss the waterfall nowadays, because no one thinks they re doing waterfall anymore. I actually think
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 29, 2011
      I sometimes hear people say it's irrelevant to discuss the waterfall nowadays, because no one thinks they're doing waterfall anymore. I actually think Taylor/Gantt thinking is better hidden than we acknowledge, but it is true that fewer companies openly trumpet following waterfall, SDLC, or V-Model now that pretending to be Agile is cooler.

      So I was surprised by the want ad that arrived in my inbox a few minutes ago. Here are some excerpts:

      > [Redacted] is looking for a dedicated and experienced application developer [blah blah blah] to ensure delivery of high quality artifacts, to adhere and to follow [Redacted]'s SDLC. This is an excellent opportunity [blah blah blah] well-known Fortune 50 company.
      >
      > Tasks and responsibilities
      [clip]
      > • Provide accurate and timely estimates (work breakdown schedules)
      [clip]
      > • Must have proven ability to provide project estimates and work-breakdown schedules

      And you know these guys are getting great results from their precise WBS and SDLC because of these lines:
      > • Must be extremely responsive, able to work under pressure in crisis with a strong sense of urgency
      > • 24/7 on call responsibilities on a rotational basis


      --mj
      http://ScrumReferenceCard.com
    • Adam Sroka
      I get those all the time, probably 2-4 per day on average. Even in organizations that have largely embraced Agile, HR and the PMO are often the last holdouts,
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 29, 2011

        I get those all the time, probably 2-4 per day on average. Even in organizations that have largely embraced Agile, HR and the PMO are often the last holdouts, and they write most of the job descriptions.

        I might even argue that the very notion of a job description is antithetical to self-organization. You might be better off to look for good people first and then write a job description to match them.

        It's analogous to an Agile approach to documentation in general: first find out what it actually does, then describe that accurately. In contrast to describing what you want it to do and then trying to implement it. In my experience the latter always produces false information.

        On Jul 29, 2011 3:48 AM, "Michael James" <mj4scrum@...> wrote:
        > I sometimes hear people say it's irrelevant to discuss the waterfall nowadays, because no one thinks they're doing waterfall anymore. I actually think Taylor/Gantt thinking is better hidden than we acknowledge, but it is true that fewer companies openly trumpet following waterfall, SDLC, or V-Model now that pretending to be Agile is cooler.
        >
        > So I was surprised by the want ad that arrived in my inbox a few minutes ago. Here are some excerpts:
        >
        >> [Redacted] is looking for a dedicated and experienced application developer [blah blah blah] to ensure delivery of high quality artifacts, to adhere and to follow [Redacted]'s SDLC. This is an excellent opportunity [blah blah blah] well-known Fortune 50 company.
        >>
        >> Tasks and responsibilities
        > [clip]
        >> • Provide accurate and timely estimates (work breakdown schedules)
        > [clip]
        >> • Must have proven ability to provide project estimates and work-breakdown schedules
        >
        > And you know these guys are getting great results from their precise WBS and SDLC because of these lines:
        >> • Must be extremely responsive, able to work under pressure in crisis with a strong sense of urgency
        >> • 24/7 on call responsibilities on a rotational basis
        >
        >
        > --mj
        > http://ScrumReferenceCard.com
        >
        >
        >
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      • Don Gray
        Michael, ... I enjoy the descriptions for ScrumMasters that include Drive the project to completion . I blogged about this in 2008.
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 29, 2011
          Michael,

          > So I was surprised by the want ad that arrived in my inbox a few minutes ago.

          I enjoy the descriptions for ScrumMasters that include "Drive the
          project to completion". I blogged about this in 2008.
          http://www.donaldegray.com/command-and-control-agile/

          --
          Don Gray (336)414-4645
          http://www.donaldegray.com

          Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected from happening.
          Barbara Tober

          Break tradition at the AYE Conference
          AYE: Exploring Human Systems in Action http://www.AYEconference.com
          Oct 30 - Nov 3, 2011
        • woynam
          How can waterfall be dead if they re still holding wildly popular conferences on the topic? http://www.waterfall2006.com/ Mark
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 29, 2011
            How can waterfall be dead if they're still holding wildly popular conferences on the topic?

            http://www.waterfall2006.com/

            Mark

            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Michael James <mj4scrum@...> wrote:
            >
            > I sometimes hear people say it's irrelevant to discuss the waterfall nowadays, because no one thinks they're doing waterfall anymore. I actually think Taylor/Gantt thinking is better hidden than we acknowledge, but it is true that fewer companies openly trumpet following waterfall, SDLC, or V-Model now that pretending to be Agile is cooler.
            >
            > So I was surprised by the want ad that arrived in my inbox a few minutes ago. Here are some excerpts:
            >
            > > [Redacted] is looking for a dedicated and experienced application developer [blah blah blah] to ensure delivery of high quality artifacts, to adhere and to follow [Redacted]'s SDLC. This is an excellent opportunity [blah blah blah] well-known Fortune 50 company.
            > >
            > > Tasks and responsibilities
            > [clip]
            > > • Provide accurate and timely estimates (work breakdown schedules)
            > [clip]
            > > • Must have proven ability to provide project estimates and work-breakdown schedules
            >
            > And you know these guys are getting great results from their precise WBS and SDLC because of these lines:
            > > • Must be extremely responsive, able to work under pressure in crisis with a strong sense of urgency
            > > • 24/7 on call responsibilities on a rotational basis
            >
            >
            > --mj
            > http://ScrumReferenceCard.com
            >
          • Dave Smith
            I wonder how much of an HR artifact that is. At some point a hiring manager steps up and writes recruiting copy, and that s it until a future hiring manager
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 29, 2011
              I wonder how much of an HR artifact that is. At some point a hiring manager steps up and writes recruiting copy, and that's it until a future hiring manager finally notices that the copy doesn't reflect the now-present reality, and steps up to repeat the cycle. I've seen ad copy I wrote get recycled for years.

              Dave

              On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:47 AM, Michael James <mj4scrum@...> wrote:
              I sometimes hear people say it's irrelevant to discuss the waterfall nowadays, because no one thinks they're doing waterfall anymore.  I actually think Taylor/Gantt thinking is better hidden than we acknowledge, but it is true that fewer companies openly trumpet following waterfall, SDLC, or V-Model now that pretending to be Agile is cooler.

              So I was surprised by the want ad that arrived in my inbox a few minutes ago.  Here are some excerpts:

              > [Redacted] is looking for a dedicated and experienced application developer [blah blah blah] to ensure delivery of high quality artifacts, to adhere and to follow [Redacted]'s SDLC. This is an excellent opportunity [blah blah blah] well-known Fortune 50 company.
              >
              > Tasks and responsibilities
              [clip]
              > •     Provide accurate and timely estimates (work breakdown schedules)
              [clip]
              > •     Must have proven ability to provide project estimates and work-breakdown schedules

              And you know these guys are getting great results from their precise WBS and SDLC because of these lines:
              > •     Must be extremely responsive, able to work under pressure in crisis with a strong sense of urgency
              > •     24/7 on call responsibilities on a rotational basis


              --mj
              http://ScrumReferenceCard.com



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            • m.babrawala@yahoo.com
              ... From: Dave Smith Sent: 29/07/2011, 8:36 PM To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Think waterfall is dead? I wonder how
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 29, 2011
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Dave Smith
                Sent: 29/07/2011, 8:36 PM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Think waterfall is dead?


                I wonder how much of an HR artifact that is. At some point a hiring manager
                steps up and writes recruiting copy, and that's it until a future hiring
                manager finally notices that the copy doesn't reflect the now-present
                reality, and steps up to repeat the cycle. I've seen ad copy I wrote get
                recycled for years.

                Dave

                On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:47 AM, Michael James <mj4scrum@...> wrote:

                > I sometimes hear people say it's irrelevant to discuss the waterfall
                > nowadays, because no one thinks they're doing waterfall anymore. I actually
                > think Taylor/Gantt thinking is better hidden than we acknowledge, but it is
                > true that fewer companies openly trumpet following waterfall, SDLC, or
                > V-Model now that pretending to be Agile is cooler.
                >
                > So I was surprised by the want ad that arrived in my inbox a few minutes
                > ago. Here are some excerpts:
                >
                > > [Redacted] is looking for a dedicated and experienced application
                > developer [blah blah blah] to ensure delivery of high quality artifacts, to
                > adhere and to follow [Redacted]'s SDLC. This is an excellent opportunity
                > [blah blah blah] well-known Fortune 50 company.
                > >
                > > Tasks and responsibilities
                > [clip]
                > > • Provide accurate and timely estimates (work breakdown schedules)
                > [clip]
                > > • Must have proven ability to provide project estimates and
                > work-breakdown schedules
                >
                > And you know these guys are getting great results from their precise WBS
                > and SDLC because of these lines:
                > > • Must be extremely responsive, able to work under pressure in crisis
                > with a strong sense of urgency
                > > • 24/7 on call responsibilities on a rotational basis
                >
                >
                > --mj
                > http://ScrumReferenceCard.com
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • woynam
                By definition, every estimate is accurate as long as it s based on the information on hand at the time. I think the vast majority of us in the IT world have a
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 29, 2011
                  By definition, every estimate is accurate as long as it's based on the information on hand at the time. I think the vast majority of us in the IT world have a good handle on estimating. When new information is revealed, we provide new "accurate" estimates.

                  Also, most of us have no problems providing timely estimates. Every Sprint kickoff involves giving estimates by the end of the meeting, so we'd have no problem meeting that requirement. Estimates by next week? Sure, no problemo.

                  Notice that the job requires "ability to provide project estimates", and doesn't say anything about delivering the project within the provided constraints. Again, I think just about everyone here would have no problem providing estimates. We'd laugh if they asked us about committing to them however.

                  :-)

                  Mark

                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Dave Smith <davewsmith@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I wonder how much of an HR artifact that is. At some point a hiring manager
                  > steps up and writes recruiting copy, and that's it until a future hiring
                  > manager finally notices that the copy doesn't reflect the now-present
                  > reality, and steps up to repeat the cycle. I've seen ad copy I wrote get
                  > recycled for years.
                  >
                  > Dave
                  >
                  > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:47 AM, Michael James <mj4scrum@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I sometimes hear people say it's irrelevant to discuss the waterfall
                  > > nowadays, because no one thinks they're doing waterfall anymore. I actually
                  > > think Taylor/Gantt thinking is better hidden than we acknowledge, but it is
                  > > true that fewer companies openly trumpet following waterfall, SDLC, or
                  > > V-Model now that pretending to be Agile is cooler.
                  > >
                  > > So I was surprised by the want ad that arrived in my inbox a few minutes
                  > > ago. Here are some excerpts:
                  > >
                  > > > [Redacted] is looking for a dedicated and experienced application
                  > > developer [blah blah blah] to ensure delivery of high quality artifacts, to
                  > > adhere and to follow [Redacted]'s SDLC. This is an excellent opportunity
                  > > [blah blah blah] well-known Fortune 50 company.
                  > > >
                  > > > Tasks and responsibilities
                  > > [clip]
                  > > > • Provide accurate and timely estimates (work breakdown schedules)
                  > > [clip]
                  > > > • Must have proven ability to provide project estimates and
                  > > work-breakdown schedules
                  > >
                  > > And you know these guys are getting great results from their precise WBS
                  > > and SDLC because of these lines:
                  > > > • Must be extremely responsive, able to work under pressure in crisis
                  > > with a strong sense of urgency
                  > > > • 24/7 on call responsibilities on a rotational basis
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --mj
                  > > http://ScrumReferenceCard.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Steve Ropa
                  I have always been a fan of the phrase strong sense of urgency . Folks don t really care if you get the job done, as long as you look and act very
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 29, 2011

                    I have always  been a fan of the phrase “strong sense of urgency”.  Folks don’t really care if you get the job done, as long as you look and act very concerned.  On the flip side, if you are calm and collected during one of their imagined crises, they get very upset.  Even if rather than running around with your hair on fire you are actually fixing whatever problem has their undergarments in a bunch.

                     

                    From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Smith
                    Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 9:06 AM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Think waterfall is dead?

                     

                     

                    I wonder how much of an HR artifact that is. At some point a hiring manager steps up and writes recruiting copy, and that's it until a future hiring manager finally notices that the copy doesn't reflect the now-present reality, and steps up to repeat the cycle. I've seen ad copy I wrote get recycled for years.

                    Dave

                    On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:47 AM, Michael James <mj4scrum@...> wrote:

                    I sometimes hear people say it's irrelevant to discuss the waterfall nowadays, because no one thinks they're doing waterfall anymore.  I actually think Taylor/Gantt thinking is better hidden than we acknowledge, but it is true that fewer companies openly trumpet following waterfall, SDLC, or V-Model now that pretending to be Agile is cooler.

                    So I was surprised by the want ad that arrived in my inbox a few minutes ago.  Here are some excerpts:

                    > [Redacted] is looking for a dedicated and experienced application developer [blah blah blah] to ensure delivery of high quality artifacts, to adhere and to follow [Redacted]'s SDLC. This is an excellent opportunity [blah blah blah] well-known Fortune 50 company.
                    >
                    > Tasks and responsibilities
                    [clip]
                    > •     Provide accurate and timely estimates (work breakdown schedules)
                    [clip]
                    > •     Must have proven ability to provide project estimates and work-breakdown schedules

                    And you know these guys are getting great results from their precise WBS and SDLC because of these lines:
                    > •     Must be extremely responsive, able to work under pressure in crisis with a strong sense of urgency
                    > •     24/7 on call responsibilities on a rotational basis


                    --mj
                    http://ScrumReferenceCard.com



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                  • Malcolm Anderson
                    It s a different mindset. Are you hiring a person for their ability to create, or are you hiring a temp to do mindless tasks by the hour? The problem is that
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 29, 2011
                      It's a different mindset.

                      Are you hiring a person for their ability to create, or are you hiring a temp to do mindless tasks by the hour?

                      The problem is that its not cut and dried.  There is value in *having* a "strong sense of urgency."  

                      A "strong sense of urgency" doesn't have to mean that you run around with your hair on fire.  It also means that you follow through with the task at hand asking, "what can we do *now* to move this forward" and you keep the issue in play until its resolved.

                      Constant fire fighting is bad, but customers are fickle, and the ability to occasionally respond to a customer request (in an expedited manner) can make a difference in your company's profits and sustainability.

                      Malcolm



                      On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:16 AM, Steve Ropa <theropas@...> wrote:
                       

                      I have always  been a fan of the phrase “strong sense of urgency”.  Folks don’t really care if you get the job done, as long as you look and act very concerned.  On the flip side, if you are calm and collected during one of their imagined crises, they get very upset.  Even if rather than running around with your hair on fire you are actually fixing whatever problem has their undergarments in a bunch.

                       



                    • Ron Jeffries
                      Hello, Malcolm. On Friday, July 29, 2011, at 2:57:18 PM, you ... I disagree rather strongly. IME&O, a sense of urgency cannot be maintained over time in a
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 29, 2011
                        Hello, Malcolm. On Friday, July 29, 2011, at 2:57:18 PM, you
                        wrote:

                        > The problem is that its not cut and dried. There is value in *having* a
                        > "strong sense of urgency."

                        I disagree rather strongly. IME&O, a sense of urgency cannot be
                        maintained over time in a healthy fashion. In addition, in the
                        planning world there is a clear and important differentiation
                        between "Important" and "Urgent".

                        > A "strong sense of urgency" doesn't have to mean that you run around with
                        > your hair on fire. It also means that you follow through with the task at
                        > hand asking, "what can we do *now* to move this forward" and you keep the
                        > issue in play until its resolved.

                        I'm more comfortable with the notion of moving things forward, but
                        remain concerned that a constant focus on moving things forward is
                        likely to be unhealthy over time.

                        > Constant fire fighting is bad, but customers are fickle, and the
                        > ability to occasionally respond to a customer request (in an
                        > expedited manner) can make a difference in your company's profits
                        > and sustainability.

                        There is a big difference between "occasionally" and "strong sense
                        of urgency". In addition, I would argue that a large percentage of
                        "urgent" requests are evidence of one or more kinds of dysfunction
                        in the customer / team relationship, including but not limited to:

                        Not enough thinking / planning on customer's part;
                        Inadequate communication between customer and team;
                        Vague definition of done, usually without examples;
                        Weak technical practices, leading to defects.

                        I would consider an ongoing "sense of urgency" to be a team and
                        process smell.

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                        If you hear a voice within you say “you cannot paint,”
                        then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced.
                        -- Vincent Van Gogh
                      • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                        Ron, I fail to see where Malcom advocated a constant sense of urgency.   I think you guys are actually in vehement agreement.  Damn email machine is always
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jul 29, 2011
                          Ron,

                          I fail to see where Malcom advocated a constant sense of urgency.
                           
                          I think you guys are actually in vehement agreement.  Damn email machine is always obfuscating.

                          -------
                          Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                          Experienced Scrum Coach
                          My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

                          From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 2:05 PM
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Think waterfall is dead?

                          Hello, Malcolm.  On Friday, July 29, 2011, at 2:57:18 PM, you
                          wrote:

                          > The problem is that its not cut and dried.  There is value in *having* a
                          > "strong sense of urgency."

                          I disagree rather strongly. IME&O, a sense of urgency cannot be
                          maintained over time in a healthy fashion. In addition, in the
                          planning world there is a clear and important differentiation
                          between "Important" and "Urgent".

                          > A "strong sense of urgency" doesn't have to mean that you run around with
                          > your hair on fire.  It also means that you follow through with the task at
                          > hand asking, "what can we do *now* to move this forward" and you keep the
                          > issue in play until its resolved.

                          I'm more comfortable with the notion of moving things forward, but
                          remain concerned that a constant focus on moving things forward is
                          likely to be unhealthy over time.

                          > Constant fire fighting is bad, but customers are fickle, and the
                          > ability to occasionally respond to a customer request (in an
                          > expedited manner) can make a difference in your company's profits
                          > and sustainability.

                          There is a big difference between "occasionally" and "strong sense
                          of urgency". In addition, I would argue that a large percentage of
                          "urgent" requests are evidence of one or more kinds of dysfunction
                          in the customer / team relationship, including but not limited to:

                            Not enough thinking / planning on customer's part;
                            Inadequate communication between customer and team;
                            Vague definition of done, usually without examples;
                            Weak technical practices, leading to defects.

                          I would consider an ongoing "sense of urgency" to be a team and
                          process smell.

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          If you hear a voice within you say “you cannot paint,”
                          then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced.
                          -- Vincent Van Gogh



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                        • Steve Ropa
                          Hi Malcolm, Actually what I was referring to was the fact that in nearly every case I have experience, the person looking for the sense of urgency was failing
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jul 29, 2011
                            Hi Malcolm,

                            Actually what I was referring to was the fact that in nearly every case I have experience, the person looking for the sense of urgency was failing to notice that we were able to expedite those customer requests *without* making a big fuss. The folks I have worked with who used that phrase really did want to see some outward "quasi-emotional" response as opposed to just getting it done.

                            On the other hand one such person did come back later and say he was mistaken, and should have trusted the team.

                            Malcolm Anderson <malcolm.b.anderson@...> wrote:

                             

                            It's a different mindset.

                            Are you hiring a person for their ability to create, or are you hiring a temp to do mindless tasks by the hour?


                            The problem is that its not cut and dried.  There is value in *having* a "strong sense of urgency."  

                            A "strong sense of urgency" doesn't have to mean that you run around with your hair on fire.  It also means that you follow through with the task at hand asking, "what can we do *now* to move this forward" and you keep the issue in play until its resolved.

                            Constant fire fighting is bad, but customers are fickle, and the ability to occasionally respond to a customer request (in an expedited manner) can make a difference in your company's profits and sustainability.

                            Malcolm



                            On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:16 AM, Steve Ropa <theropas@...> wrote:
                             

                            I have always  been a fan of the phrase “strong sense of urgency”.  Folks don’t really care if you get the job done, as long as you look and act very concerned.  On the flip side, if you are calm and collected during one of their imagined crises, they get very upset.  Even if rather than running around with your hair on fire you are actually fixing whatever problem has their undergarments in a bunch.

                             



                          • Malcolm Anderson
                            Steve I know the people you are talking about. The people who want the drama of the urgency, rather than the actions of the urgency. Or the people who mistake
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jul 29, 2011
                              Steve

                              I know the people you are talking about. 

                              The people who want the drama of the urgency, rather than the actions of the urgency.

                              Or the people who mistake urgent with important and expect everyone to jump on the urgencies rather than focus on that which is important.

                              --

                              Malcolm Anderson
                              Scrum Coach & Agile Engineer



                              On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Steve Ropa <theropas@...> wrote:
                               

                              Hi Malcolm,

                              Actually what I was referring to was the fact that in nearly every case I have experience, the person looking for the sense of urgency was failing to notice that we were able to expedite those customer requests *without* making a big fuss. The folks I have worked with who used that phrase really did want to see some outward "quasi-emotional" response as opposed to just getting it done.

                              On the other hand one such person did come back later and say he was mistaken, and should have trusted the team.



                              Malcolm Anderson <malcolm.b.anderson@...> wrote:

                               

                              It's a different mindset.

                              Are you hiring a person for their ability to create, or are you hiring a temp to do mindless tasks by the hour?

                              The problem is that its not cut and dried.  There is value in *having* a "strong sense of urgency."  

                              A "strong sense of urgency" doesn't have to mean that you run around with your hair on fire.  It also means that you follow through with the task at hand asking, "what can we do *now* to move this forward" and you keep the issue in play until its resolved.

                              Constant fire fighting is bad, but customers are fickle, and the ability to occasionally respond to a customer request (in an expedited manner) can make a difference in your company's profits and sustainability.

                              Malcolm



                              On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:16 AM, Steve Ropa <theropas@...> wrote:
                               

                              I have always  been a fan of the phrase “strong sense of urgency”.  Folks don’t really care if you get the job done, as long as you look and act very concerned.  On the flip side, if you are calm and collected during one of their imagined crises, they get very upset.  Even if rather than running around with your hair on fire you are actually fixing whatever problem has their undergarments in a bunch.

                               





                            • Malcolm Anderson
                              Charles You nailed it. -- MalcoLm Anderson Scrum Coach & Agile Engineer On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jul 29, 2011
                                Charles

                                You nailed it.

                                --

                                MalcoLm Anderson
                                Scrum Coach & Agile Engineer




                                On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Ron,

                                I fail to see where Malcom advocated a constant sense of urgency.
                                 
                                I think you guys are actually in vehement agreement.  Damn email machine is always obfuscating.

                                -------
                                Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                Experienced Scrum Coach
                                My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

                                From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 2:05 PM

                                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Think waterfall is dead?

                                Hello, Malcolm.  On Friday, July 29, 2011, at 2:57:18 PM, you
                                wrote:

                                > The problem is that its not cut and dried.  There is value in *having* a
                                > "strong sense of urgency."

                                I disagree rather strongly. IME&O, a sense of urgency cannot be
                                maintained over time in a healthy fashion. In addition, in the
                                planning world there is a clear and important differentiation
                                between "Important" and "Urgent".

                                > A "strong sense of urgency" doesn't have to mean that you run around with
                                > your hair on fire.  It also means that you follow through with the task at
                                > hand asking, "what can we do *now* to move this forward" and you keep the
                                > issue in play until its resolved.

                                I'm more comfortable with the notion of moving things forward, but
                                remain concerned that a constant focus on moving things forward is
                                likely to be unhealthy over time.

                                > Constant fire fighting is bad, but customers are fickle, and the
                                > ability to occasionally respond to a customer request (in an
                                > expedited manner) can make a difference in your company's profits
                                > and sustainability.

                                There is a big difference between "occasionally" and "strong sense
                                of urgency". In addition, I would argue that a large percentage of
                                "urgent" requests are evidence of one or more kinds of dysfunction
                                in the customer / team relationship, including but not limited to:

                                  Not enough thinking / planning on customer's part;
                                  Inadequate communication between customer and team;
                                  Vague definition of done, usually without examples;
                                  Weak technical practices, leading to defects.

                                I would consider an ongoing "sense of urgency" to be a team and
                                process smell.

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
                                If you hear a voice within you say “you cannot paint,”
                                then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced.
                                -- Vincent Van Gogh



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                              • Steven Gojanovich
                                I am complete rookie at this and need some feedback having just graduated college in CS. What techniques are used out there besides Waterfall, XP, and Agile
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jul 31, 2011
                                  I am complete rookie at this and need some feedback having just graduated college in CS. What techniques are used out there besides Waterfall, XP, and Agile can anyone give me an assessment of percentages of each and any other. I have looked at the PMBOK and it does not say squat.

                                  Please help!

                                  Thanks,
                                  Steve


                                  From: "m.babrawala@..." <m.babrawala@...>
                                  To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 11:36 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Think waterfall is dead?

                                   

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Dave Smith
                                  Sent: 29/07/2011, 8:36 PM
                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Think waterfall is dead?

                                  I wonder how much of an HR artifact that is. At some point a hiring manager
                                  steps up and writes recruiting copy, and that's it until a future hiring
                                  manager finally notices that the copy doesn't reflect the now-present
                                  reality, and steps up to repeat the cycle. I've seen ad copy I wrote get
                                  recycled for years.

                                  Dave

                                  On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:47 AM, Michael James <mj4scrum@...> wrote:

                                  > I sometimes hear people say it's irrelevant to discuss the waterfall
                                  > nowadays, because no one thinks they're doing waterfall anymore. I actually
                                  > think Taylor/Gantt thinking is better hidden than we acknowledge, but it is
                                  > true that fewer companies openly trumpet following waterfall, SDLC, or
                                  > V-Model now that pretending to be Agile is cooler.
                                  >
                                  > So I was surprised by the want ad that arrived in my inbox a few minutes
                                  > ago. Here are some excerpts:
                                  >
                                  > > [Redacted] is looking for a dedicated and experienced application
                                  > developer [blah blah blah] to ensure delivery of high quality artifacts, to
                                  > adhere and to follow [Redacted]'s SDLC. This is an excellent opportunity
                                  > [blah blah blah] well-known Fortune 50 company.
                                  > >
                                  > > Tasks and responsibilities
                                  > [clip]
                                  > > • Provide accurate and timely estimates (work breakdown schedules)
                                  > [clip]
                                  > > • Must have proven ability to provide project estimates and
                                  > work-breakdown schedules
                                  >
                                  > And you know these guys are getting great results from their precise WBS
                                  > and SDLC because of these lines:
                                  > > • Must be extremely responsive, able to work under pressure in crisis
                                  > with a strong sense of urgency
                                  > > • 24/7 on call responsibilities on a rotational basis
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --mj
                                  > http://ScrumReferenceCard.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                  > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >



                                • Malcolm Anderson
                                  Steve What are you looking for from use percentages? In this group you will find Scrum professionals discussing with each other how they have solved various
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jul 31, 2011
                                    Steve

                                    What are you looking for from use percentages?

                                    In this group you will find Scrum professionals discussing with each other how they have solved various problems in (usually) software development using the Scrum Framework.  You will also find us arguing over obscure points of theological dogma based on what "He" (Ken) has stated recently, as opposed to what "He" has stated in the past.

                                    The only advice I would give to a new CS graduate is
                                    1. Make sure that in the companies you apply to, the CIO/CTO report to the CEO *not* the CFO
                                    2. Find a company that practices Paired Programming, Continuous Integration, Test Driven Development and is conversant in Design Principles. 
                                    The first insures that you have a chance of building revenue enhancing software.
                                    The second gives you a training ground to learn disciplines that reduce the code-and-fix cycle.

                                    Good Luck

                                    --

                                    Malcolm Anderson
                                    Scrum Coach & Agile Engineer






                                    On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Steven Gojanovich <stevegojanovich@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    I am complete rookie at this and need some feedback having just graduated college in CS. What techniques are used out there besides Waterfall, XP, and Agile can anyone give me an assessment of percentages of each and any other. I have looked at the PMB
                                     
                                    OK and it does not say squat.

                                    Please help!

                                    Thanks,
                                    Steve


                                    From: "m.babrawala@..." <m.babrawala@...>
                                    To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 11:36 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Think waterfall is dead?

                                     

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Dave Smith
                                    Sent: 29/07/2011, 8:36 PM
                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Think waterfall is dead?

                                    I wonder how much of an HR artifact that is. At some point a hiring manager
                                    steps up and writes recruiting copy, and that's it until a future hiring
                                    manager finally notices that the copy doesn't reflect the now-present
                                    reality, and steps up to repeat the cycle. I've seen ad copy I wrote get
                                    recycled for years.

                                    Dave

                                    On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:47 AM, Michael James <mj4scrum@...> wrote:

                                    > I sometimes hear people say it's irrelevant to discuss the waterfall
                                    > nowadays, because no one thinks they're doing waterfall anymore. I actually
                                    > think Taylor/Gantt thinking is better hidden than we acknowledge, but it is
                                    > true that fewer companies openly trumpet following waterfall, SDLC, or
                                    > V-Model now that pretending to be Agile is cooler.
                                    >
                                    > So I was surprised by the want ad that arrived in my inbox a few minutes
                                    > ago. Here are some excerpts:
                                    >
                                    > > [Redacted] is looking for a dedicated and experienced application
                                    > developer [blah blah blah] to ensure delivery of high quality artifacts, to
                                    > adhere and to follow [Redacted]'s SDLC. This is an excellent opportunity
                                    > [blah blah blah] well-known Fortune 50 company.
                                    > >
                                    > > Tasks and responsibilities
                                    > [clip]
                                    > > • Provide accurate and timely estimates (work breakdown schedules)
                                    > [clip]
                                    > > • Must have proven ability to provide project estimates and
                                    > work-breakdown schedules
                                    >
                                    > And you know these guys are getting great results from their precise WBS
                                    > and SDLC because of these lines:
                                    > > • Must be extremely responsive, able to work under pressure in crisis
                                    > with a strong sense of urgency
                                    > > • 24/7 on call responsibilities on a rotational basis
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --mj
                                    > http://ScrumReferenceCard.com
                                    >
                                    >

                                  • mj4scrum@gmail.com
                                    Despite what they say, most places do code and fix. The world of software development would be a better place if the PMBOK didn t say squat. Unfortunately
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jul 31, 2011
                                      Despite what they say, most places do "code and fix."

                                      The world of software development would be a better place if the PMBOK didn't say squat. Unfortunately there are enough people still taking it seriously to impede innovation and the delivery of value. 

                                      --mj

                                      Sent from a phone that often corrects words I tapped to words I may not have meant. 

                                      On Jul 31, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Steven Gojanovich <stevegojanovich@...> wrote:

                                       

                                      I am complete rookie at this and need some feedback having just graduated college in CS. What techniques are used out there besides Waterfall, XP, and Agile can anyone give me an assessment of percentages of each and any other. I have looked at the PMBOK and it does not say squat.

                                      Please help!

                                      Thanks,
                                      Steve


                                      From: "m.babrawala@..." <m.babrawala@...>
                                      To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 11:36 AM
                                      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Think waterfall is dead?

                                       

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Dave Smith
                                      Sent: 29/07/2011, 8:36 PM
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Think waterfall is dead?

                                      I wonder how much of an HR artifact that is. At some point a hiring manager
                                      steps up and writes recruiting copy, and that's it until a future hiring
                                      manager finally notices that the copy doesn't reflect the now-present
                                      reality, and steps up to repeat the cycle. I've seen ad copy I wrote get
                                      recycled for years.

                                      Dave

                                      On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:47 AM, Michael James <mj4scrum@...> wrote:

                                      > I sometimes hear people say it's irrelevant to discuss the waterfall
                                      > nowadays, because no one thinks they're doing waterfall anymore. I actually
                                      > think Taylor/Gantt thinking is better hidden than we acknowledge, but it is
                                      > true that fewer companies openly trumpet following waterfall, SDLC, or
                                      > V-Model now that pretending to be Agile is cooler.
                                      >
                                      > So I was surprised by the want ad that arrived in my inbox a few minutes
                                      > ago. Here are some excerpts:
                                      >
                                      > > [Redacted] is looking for a dedicated and experienced application
                                      > developer [blah blah blah] to ensure delivery of high quality artifacts, to
                                      > adhere and to follow [Redacted]'s SDLC. This is an excellent opportunity
                                      > [blah blah blah] well-known Fortune 50 company.
                                      > >
                                      > > Tasks and responsibilities
                                      > [clip]
                                      > > • Provide accurate and timely estimates (work breakdown schedules)
                                      > [clip]
                                      > > • Must have proven ability to provide project estimates and
                                      > work-breakdown schedules
                                      >
                                      > And you know these guys are getting great results from their precise WBS
                                      > and SDLC because of these lines:
                                      > > • Must be extremely responsive, able to work under pressure in crisis
                                      > with a strong sense of urgency
                                      > > • 24/7 on call responsibilities on a rotational basis
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --mj
                                      > http://ScrumReferenceCard.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                      > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >



                                    • Steven Gojanovich
                                      Thank you for the link. Is there a link after this module is complete? or a site I can go to? ________________________________ From: mj4scrum@gmail.com
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jul 31, 2011
                                        Thank you for the link. Is there a link after this module is complete? or a site I can go to?


                                        From: "mj4scrum@..." <mj4scrum@...>
                                        To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 5:28 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Think waterfall is dead?

                                         
                                        Despite what they say, most places do "code and fix."

                                        The world of software development would be a better place if the PMBOK didn't say squat. Unfortunately there are enough people still taking it seriously to impede innovation and the delivery of value. 

                                        --mj

                                        Sent from a phone that often corrects words I tapped to words I may not have meant. 

                                        On Jul 31, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Steven Gojanovich <stevegojanovich@...> wrote:

                                         
                                        I am complete rookie at this and need some feedback having just graduated college in CS. What techniques are used out there besides Waterfall, XP, and Agile can anyone give me an assessment of percentages of each and any other. I have looked at the PMBOK and it does not say squat.

                                        Please help!

                                        Thanks,
                                        Steve


                                        From: "m.babrawala@..." <m.babrawala@...>
                                        To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 11:36 AM
                                        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Think waterfall is dead?

                                         

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Dave Smith
                                        Sent: 29/07/2011, 8:36 PM
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Think waterfall is dead?

                                        I wonder how much of an HR artifact that is. At some point a hiring manager
                                        steps up and writes recruiting copy, and that's it until a future hiring
                                        manager finally notices that the copy doesn't reflect the now-present
                                        reality, and steps up to repeat the cycle. I've seen ad copy I wrote get
                                        recycled for years.

                                        Dave

                                        On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:47 AM, Michael James <mj4scrum@...> wrote:

                                        > I sometimes hear people say it's irrelevant to discuss the waterfall
                                        > nowadays, because no one thinks they're doing waterfall anymore. I actually
                                        > think Taylor/Gantt thinking is better hidden than we acknowledge, but it is
                                        > true that fewer companies openly trumpet following waterfall, SDLC, or
                                        > V-Model now that pretending to be Agile is cooler.
                                        >
                                        > So I was surprised by the want ad that arrived in my inbox a few minutes
                                        > ago. Here are some excerpts:
                                        >
                                        > > [Redacted] is looking for a dedicated and experienced application
                                        > developer [blah blah blah] to ensure delivery of high quality artifacts, to
                                        > adhere and to follow [Redacted]'s SDLC. This is an excellent opportunity
                                        > [blah blah blah] well-known Fortune 50 company.
                                        > >
                                        > > Tasks and responsibilities
                                        > [clip]
                                        > > • Provide accurate and timely estimates (work breakdown schedules)
                                        > [clip]
                                        > > • Must have proven ability to provide project estimates and
                                        > work-breakdown schedules
                                        >
                                        > And you know these guys are getting great results from their precise WBS
                                        > and SDLC because of these lines:
                                        > > • Must be extremely responsive, able to work under pressure in crisis
                                        > with a strong sense of urgency
                                        > > • 24/7 on call responsibilities on a rotational basis
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --mj
                                        > http://ScrumReferenceCard.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                        > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >





                                      • Joshua Partogi
                                        Malcolm, I am interested to hear your opinion regarding the differences between reporting to CEO and CFO. What s the correlation with Scrum? On Mon, Aug 1,
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jul 31, 2011
                                          Malcolm,

                                          I am interested to hear your opinion regarding the differences between reporting to CEO and CFO. What's the correlation with Scrum?

                                          On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 7:27 AM, Malcolm Anderson <malcolm.b.anderson@...> wrote:


                                          The only advice I would give to a new CS graduate is

                                          1. Make sure that in the companies you apply to, the CIO/CTO report to the CEO *not* the CFO


                                          --
                                          Kind Regards,

                                          Joshua Partogi
                                          Principal Consultant
                                          ScrumWay.Co - Scrum and Agile Consulting and Training
                                          @scrumway
                                        • Malcolm Anderson
                                          Joshua There is no correlation with Scrum. A few years ago Gartner came out and confirmed that CIOs who report to the CEO have a better chance to use the IT
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jul 31, 2011
                                            Joshua

                                            There is no correlation with Scrum.

                                            A few years ago Gartner came out and confirmed that CIOs who report to the CEO have a better chance to use the IT department to increase revenues rather than just cut costs. 

                                            My opinion is that a new CS graduate, having the opportunity to work on projects that can increase the bottom line will do more for that persons career than just working on cost cutting will.

                                            --

                                            Malcolm Anderson
                                            Scrum Coach & Agile Engineer


                                            On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Joshua Partogi <joshua.java@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            Malcolm,


                                            I am interested to hear your opinion regarding the differences between reporting to CEO and CFO. What's the correlation with Scrum?


                                            On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 7:27 AM, Malcolm Anderson <malcolm.b.anderson@...> wrote:


                                            The only advice I would give to a new CS graduate is

                                            1. Make sure that in the companies you apply to, the CIO/CTO report to the CEO *not* the CFO


                                            --
                                            Kind Regards,

                                            Joshua Partogi
                                            Principal Consultant
                                            ScrumWay.Co - Scrum and Agile Consulting and Training
                                            @scrumway




                                          • Michael James
                                            ... Here are two more modules that will be in beta test for another few days. If anyone has feedback, or thinks they d use something like this with their
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Aug 1, 2011
                                              On Jul 31, 2011, at 2:46 PM, Steven Gojanovich wrote:

                                              > Thank you for the link. Is there a link after this module is complete? or a site I can go to?

                                              Here are two more modules that will be in beta test for another few days. If anyone has feedback, or thinks they'd use something like this with their clients, please write to me offline.

                                              Backlog Refinement Meeting: http://goo.gl/pjtv7
                                              Sprint Planning Meeting: http://goo.gl/9YEXm

                                              --mj
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