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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Experience requirements for Scrum (team)(was: Re: Scrum Guide interpretation)

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  • Adam Sroka
    I don t disagree with George at all, but the one thing I was saying that subsequent responses don t seem to reflect is that it is more about how you adapt than
    Message 1 of 87 , May 2 10:50 AM

      I don't disagree with George at all, but the one thing I was saying that subsequent responses don't seem to reflect is that it is more about how you adapt than when. I am not sure that it is every too early to improve, but I think it might be dangerous to do it without expert guidance (particularly at scale.) I'm not even convinced that it is a good idea to adopt Scrum "by the book" without appropriate coaching. 

      On May 2, 2011 12:23 PM, "Andrew Pham" <andrewpham74@...> wrote:
      > On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 10:29 PM, George Dinwiddie
      > <lists@...>wrote:
      >> On 5/1/11 10:49 PM, Adam Sroka wrote:
      >> > On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 4:05 PM, strazhce<infobox.oleg@...> wrote:
      >> >>
      >> >> --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sroka<adam.sroka@...>
      >> wrote:
      >> >> As I understand, you are talking about how to introduce a team to a
      >> >> Scrum and guide it during its application.
      >> >>
      >> >> I would like to know (and I purposefully don't ask more specifically):
      >> >> How what you said relates to the notion "XP/Agile is for experienced
      >> developers"?
      >> >>
      >> >> This question IMO relates to shu-ha-ri, people and organization
      >> maturity. My feeling is
      >> >> - Ron says - start with any team/customer as if it is at Shu level and
      >> let them walk in their own pace
      >> >> - Adam says - push the team/customer (hard?) to go for Ha or even Ri
      >> level behavior
      >> >>
      >> >
      >> > I like the Shuhari model, but it is a bit limited. Specifically, I
      >> > think that in a domain as complex as software development it is likely
      >> > that we are doing some things at one level and other things at another
      >> > level all the time.
      >> >
      >> > The folks I find myself coaching are typically doing Scrum at a Shu
      >> > level, but it is likely that they have been developing software for a
      >> > while and have skills at a higher level. These software development
      >> > skills are still useful, but they may need to adjust the way they
      >> > apply them. That sometimes seems to be the hardest part.
      >> >
      >> > I struggled for a while to figure out how to help my clients apply
      >> > their existing software skills in a responsible way while doing Scrum
      >> > and at the same time learn some new skills that the faster pace and
      >> > less certain plan require. The problem is figuring out where to start
      >> > and how to measure progress.
      >> >
      >> > The way that I have solved that problem is to apply Systems Thinking.
      >> > However, if I apply Systems Thinking honestly it is not always the
      >> > things inside or around the edges of the framework that are the most
      >> > prudent things to change. Sometimes the framework doesn't really fit.
      >> > If the framework is the impediment then I have no problem adjusting
      >> > it, and it seems to me that is just as true whether I feel my client
      >> > has mastered the framework or not.
      >> >
      >> > So, I am not really talking about Shuhari per se. I am talking about
      >> > working with the right coaches who understand the implications of
      >> > Agile at the management level, at the organizational level, and at the
      >> > sausage making (crafting working software) level. Those kind of
      >> > coaches don't always stick to the framework, because the framework
      >> > doesn't always make sense for *your* situation. What is important to
      >> > me is that you get the benefits that Agile promises, and Scrum alone
      >> > is not always the best way to achieve that regardless of the skill
      >> > level of the team.
      >> >
      >> > Now, all of that said I agree with Ron to the extent that if you are
      >> > going to apply Scrum you should understand it well, including how and
      >> > why it is put together. The best way that I know to understand Scrum
      >> > is to practice doing it, and doing it as it was designed to be done.
      >> > The same goes for XP or any other tool/framework/practice/process.
      >> > Once we are educated and practiced we can better understand how to
      >> > apply them and we can make appropriate decisions about when to do so
      >> > or when not to. I suppose *that* is about Shuhari.
      >> I'd like to second these notions, but add the thought that what Adam
      >> does, and what I do, is to help a client tailor things to their current
      >> situation /from the perspective of an experienced coach/.
      >> This is a very different thing/ from an organization new to Scrum or Agile
      >> deciding to tailor things before they've ever tried to do things in a
      >> genuinely Agile fashion.
      > I completely agreed with George's statement statement and can also confirmed
      > from the trenches how things usually went astray when organizations hurried
      > to tailor Agile even before they have tried to do things in a genuinely
      > Agile fashion and learned from there.
      > Andrew Pham
      > Agile and Lean Coach, Author of *Scrum in Action*
      > http://www.amazon.com/Scrum-Action-Andrew-Pham/dp/143545913X/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_
      > *1*<http://www.amazon.com/Scrum-Action-Andrew-Pham/dp/143545913X/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1>
      > *-1*
      >> - George
      >> --
      >> ----------------------------------------------------------
      >> * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
      >> Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
      >> Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
      >> ----------------------------------------------------------
    • strazhce
      Hi, Adam, ... So if I start using Scrum/Agile/whatever without coach, I undertake a risk of doing it wrong. If I hire a coach/mentor, I pay for avoiding most
      Message 87 of 87 , May 4 2:08 AM
        Hi, Adam,

        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
        > In my opinion it is not the responsibility of the coach to do these things
        > per se. Rather, an experienced coach can help guide an organization to do
        > these things successfully based on his experience.
        > You don't hire sherpas to climb the mountain for you. You hire them for
        > their knowledge of the terrain and its various perils so that *you* can
        > climb the mountain in relative safety. A coach is a very similar thing.
        > Also similarly, the ultimate success or failure of the expedition is not the
        > sole responsibility of the sherpa, but most experienced climbers recognize
        > that it is irresponsible to proceed without his assistance.
        > On May 3, 2011 5:30 AM, "strazhce" <infobox.oleg@...> wrote:

        So if I start using Scrum/Agile/whatever without coach, I undertake a risk of doing it wrong. If I hire a coach/mentor, I pay for avoiding most common mistakes other people made and speeding up my change, for opening my eyes to see things I wouldn't come across otherwise. It seems similar to taking or not taking personal/career coach.

        Ok, I've thought about some implications (http://www.agileskillsproject.com/collected-knowledge/ideas-to-refine/hiring-agile-coach). My main concern is trusting the coach, but it is a different topic.

        Thanks Adam.

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