Re: [scrumdevelopment] Experience requirements for Scrum (team)(was: Re: Scrum Guide interpretation)
- On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 4:05 PM, strazhce <infobox.oleg@...> wrote:
> Hi, Ron, Adam,
> I'm starting a new thread,
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 9:23 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
> You've made me think for an hour, how this relates to the experience level of the developers/team members.
> As I understand, you are talking about how to introduce a team to a Scrum and guide it during its application.I like the Shuhari model, but it is a bit limited. Specifically, I
> I would like to know (and I purposefully don't ask more specifically):
> How what you said relates to the notion "XP/Agile is for experienced developers"?
> This question IMO relates to shu-ha-ri, people and organization maturity. My feeling is
> - Ron says - start with any team/customer as if it is at Shu level and let them walk in their own pace
> - Adam says - push the team/customer (hard?) to go for Ha or even Ri level behavior
think that in a domain as complex as software development it is likely
that we are doing some things at one level and other things at another
level all the time.
The folks I find myself coaching are typically doing Scrum at a Shu
level, but it is likely that they have been developing software for a
while and have skills at a higher level. These software development
skills are still useful, but they may need to adjust the way they
apply them. That sometimes seems to be the hardest part.
I struggled for a while to figure out how to help my clients apply
their existing software skills in a responsible way while doing Scrum
and at the same time learn some new skills that the faster pace and
less certain plan require. The problem is figuring out where to start
and how to measure progress.
The way that I have solved that problem is to apply Systems Thinking.
However, if I apply Systems Thinking honestly it is not always the
things inside or around the edges of the framework that are the most
prudent things to change. Sometimes the framework doesn't really fit.
If the framework is the impediment then I have no problem adjusting
it, and it seems to me that is just as true whether I feel my client
has mastered the framework or not.
So, I am not really talking about Shuhari per se. I am talking about
working with the right coaches who understand the implications of
Agile at the management level, at the organizational level, and at the
sausage making (crafting working software) level. Those kind of
coaches don't always stick to the framework, because the framework
doesn't always make sense for *your* situation. What is important to
me is that you get the benefits that Agile promises, and Scrum alone
is not always the best way to achieve that regardless of the skill
level of the team.
Now, all of that said I agree with Ron to the extent that if you are
going to apply Scrum you should understand it well, including how and
why it is put together. The best way that I know to understand Scrum
is to practice doing it, and doing it as it was designed to be done.
The same goes for XP or any other tool/framework/practice/process.
Once we are educated and practiced we can better understand how to
apply them and we can make appropriate decisions about when to do so
or when not to. I suppose *that* is about Shuhari.
- Hi, Adam,
--- In email@example.com, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
> In my opinion it is not the responsibility of the coach to do these things
> per se. Rather, an experienced coach can help guide an organization to do
> these things successfully based on his experience.
> You don't hire sherpas to climb the mountain for you. You hire them for
> their knowledge of the terrain and its various perils so that *you* can
> climb the mountain in relative safety. A coach is a very similar thing.
> Also similarly, the ultimate success or failure of the expedition is not the
> sole responsibility of the sherpa, but most experienced climbers recognize
> that it is irresponsible to proceed without his assistance.
> On May 3, 2011 5:30 AM, "strazhce" <infobox.oleg@...> wrote:
So if I start using Scrum/Agile/whatever without coach, I undertake a risk of doing it wrong. If I hire a coach/mentor, I pay for avoiding most common mistakes other people made and speeding up my change, for opening my eyes to see things I wouldn't come across otherwise. It seems similar to taking or not taking personal/career coach.
Ok, I've thought about some implications (http://www.agileskillsproject.com/collected-knowledge/ideas-to-refine/hiring-agile-coach). My main concern is trusting the coach, but it is a different topic.