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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

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  • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
    +1 to Mj s comment ... Did Erin mean : I see story points as a predictive measure of delivering business value that takes... ?? ... Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 1, 2011
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      +1 to Mj's comment

      > I see story points as a predictive measure of business value that take

      Did Erin mean :

      I see story points as a predictive measure of delivering business value that takes...
       
      ??

      -------
      Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
      Experienced Scrum Coach
      My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/



      From: "mj4scrum@..." <mj4scrum@...>
      To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Fri, April 1, 2011 2:53:13 PM
      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours



      Seems completely independent of business value to me. Something could be easy to do and valuable, or hard and pointless, and all other combinations. 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Apr 1, 2011, at 4:42 PM, "Erin Beierwaltes" <erin@...> wrote:

       

      I was just having this discussion with another coach..

       

      I see story points as a predictive measure of business value that takes into account much more than just effort (ie. Interrupts, meetings, day to day stuff), which is often all you get with an hour’s estimate. However, this only works if your team has become consistent and that the velocity has become predictive.

       

      In reality, this is just as good as traditional earned value if implemented well. Again, the main goal being an accurate measurement that takes into account how quickly a team can deliver business value and can be used to predict future releases.

       

      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
      Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:25 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

       

       

      Ashish,

      I'm curious. 

      Has your team been pretty accurate wrt planning using story points and velocity?

      Have the "experts" who predict estimates in hours been accurate?

      Which has been more accurate?

       -------
      Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
      Experienced Scrum Coach
      My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

       

       


      From: "ashish_euphoric@..." <ashish_euphoric@...>
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 8:20:52 AM
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

      Hi,
      I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?

      Ashish
      Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

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    • Erin Beierwaltes
      Yes, that is what I meant. Sorry. Its Friday J From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Bradley -
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 1, 2011
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        Yes, that is what I meant. Sorry. Its Friday J

         

        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
        Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 3:07 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

         

         

        +1 to Mj's comment

        > I see story points as a predictive measure of business value that take

        Did Erin mean :

        I see story points as a predictive measure of delivering business value that takes...

         
        ??

        -------
        Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
        Experienced Scrum Coach
        My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

         

         


        From: "mj4scrum@..." <mj4scrum@...>
        To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Fri, April 1, 2011 2:53:13 PM
        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours


        Seems completely independent of business value to me. Something could be easy to do and valuable, or hard and pointless, and all other combinations. 

        Sent from my iPhone


        On Apr 1, 2011, at 4:42 PM, "Erin Beierwaltes" <erin@...> wrote:

         

        I was just having this discussion with another coach..

         

        I see story points as a predictive measure of business value that takes into account much more than just effort (ie. Interrupts, meetings, day to day stuff), which is often all you get with an hour’s estimate. However, this only works if your team has become consistent and that the velocity has become predictive.

         

        In reality, this is just as good as traditional earned value if implemented well. Again, the main goal being an accurate measurement that takes into account how quickly a team can deliver business value and can be used to predict future releases.

         

        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
        Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:25 AM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

         

         

        Ashish,

        I'm curious. 

        Has your team been pretty accurate wrt planning using story points and velocity?

        Have the "experts" who predict estimates in hours been accurate?

        Which has been more accurate?

         -------
        Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
        Experienced Scrum Coach
        My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

         

         


        From: "ashish_euphoric@..." <ashish_euphoric@...>
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 8:20:52 AM
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

        Hi,
        I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?

        Ashish
        Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

        ------------------------------------

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        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links

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      • Mark Graybill
        You’re right if the meeting with owners was not successful in its objectives. Otherwise, all stories should be of value, IMO. From:
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 1, 2011
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          You’re right if the meeting with owners was not successful in its objectives.  Otherwise, all stories should be of value, IMO.

           

          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mj4scrum@...
          Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 3:53 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

           

           

          Seems completely independent of business value to me. Something could be easy to do and valuable, or hard and pointless, and all other combinations. 

          Sent from my iPhone


          On Apr 1, 2011, at 4:42 PM, "Erin Beierwaltes" <erin@...> wrote:

           

          I was just having this discussion with another coach..

           

          I see story points as a predictive measure of business value that takes into account much more than just effort (ie. Interrupts, meetings, day to day stuff), which is often all you get with an hour’s estimate. However, this only works if your team has become consistent and that the velocity has become predictive.

           

          In reality, this is just as good as traditional earned value if implemented well. Again, the main goal being an accurate measurement that takes into account how quickly a team can deliver business value and can be used to predict future releases.

           

          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
          Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:25 AM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

           

           

          Ashish,

          I'm curious. 

          Has your team been pretty accurate wrt planning using story points and velocity?

          Have the "experts" who predict estimates in hours been accurate?

          Which has been more accurate?

           -------
          Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
          Experienced Scrum Coach
          My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

           

           


          From: "ashish_euphoric@..." <ashish_euphoric@...>
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 8:20:52 AM
          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

          Hi,
          I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?

          Ashish
          Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

          ------------------------------------

          To Post a message, send it to:  scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links

          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment/

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        • Ron Jeffries
          Hello, Mark. On Saturday, April 2, 2011, at 12:30:59 AM, you ... Of value, yes. But story value is not linear with story points. Story points measure cost,
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 2, 2011
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            Hello, Mark. On Saturday, April 2, 2011, at 12:30:59 AM, you
            wrote:

            > You’re right if the meeting with owners was not successful in its
            > objectives. Otherwise, all stories should be of value, IMO.

            Of value, yes. But story value is not linear with story points.
            Story points measure cost, not value.

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            The man happy in his work is not the narrow specialist,
            nor the well-rounded man, but the man who is doing
            what he loves to do. You must fall in love with some activity.
            --Richard P. Feynman
          • Mark Graybill
            Sorry, what I meant is that if everyone is doing Scrum well, then: 1) All stories are necessary and are of value to the customer (i.e. no pointless
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 4, 2011
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              Sorry, what I meant is that if everyone is doing Scrum well, then:

               

              1)      All stories are necessary and are of value to the customer (i.e. no pointless stories), so meeting with product owners was successful.

               

              2)      The team has a fairly consistent velocity, measured in story points (this was a given.)

               

              Since velocity is associated with a sprint, then cost is a measurable known value because a sprint is associated with time.  Cost and business value are opposite sides of the same coin (a simplistic view of earned value.)

               

               

              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
              Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 4:38 AM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

               

               

              Hello, Mark. On Saturday, April 2, 2011, at 12:30:59 AM, you
              wrote:

              > You’re right if the meeting with owners was not successful in its
              > objectives. Otherwise, all stories should be of value, IMO.

              Of value, yes. But story value is not linear with story points.
              Story points measure cost, not value.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              The man happy in his work is not the narrow specialist,
              nor the well-rounded man, but the man who is doing
              what he loves to do. You must fall in love with some activity.
              --Richard P. Feynman

            • Mark Graybill
              Forgot to close with: given all is well as suggested, since story points are later associated with time and time is associated with cost and cost is the other
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 4, 2011
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                Forgot to close with: given all is well as suggested, since story points are later associated with time and time is associated with cost and cost is the other side of the cost/value coin, then value can be finitely measured for completed stories (though with limited accuracy since that cost is likely based on some velocity average).

                 

                This is a simplistic example, but if a team has a velocity of say 200 story points and the overhead for a sprint is say $80K, then each story point is worth about $400. 

                 

                So if story A is 20 points, then it could be said to have a value of ~ $8K.

                 

                From: Mark Graybill [mailto:mark@...]
                Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 9:16 PM
                To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                 

                Sorry, what I meant is that if everyone is doing Scrum well, then:

                 

                1)      All stories are necessary and are of value to the customer (i.e. no pointless stories), so meeting with product owners was successful.

                 

                2)      The team has a fairly consistent velocity, measured in story points (this was a given.)

                 

                Since velocity is associated with a sprint, then cost is a measurable known value because a sprint is associated with time.  Cost and business value are opposite sides of the same coin (a simplistic view of earned value.)

                 

                 

                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
                Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 4:38 AM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                 

                 

                Hello, Mark. On Saturday, April 2, 2011, at 12:30:59 AM, you
                wrote:

                > You’re right if the meeting with owners was not successful in its
                > objectives. Otherwise, all stories should be of value, IMO.

                Of value, yes. But story value is not linear with story points.
                Story points measure cost, not value.

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                The man happy in his work is not the narrow specialist,
                nor the well-rounded man, but the man who is doing
                what he loves to do. You must fall in love with some activity.
                --Richard P. Feynman

              • Mark Graybill
                I just have to share this, but a while back I suggested that projected profit be calculated from the customer price and the projected completion/costs. Based
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 4, 2011
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                  I just have to share this, but a while back I suggested that projected profit be calculated from the customer price and the projected completion/costs.

                   

                  Based on status reports, project completion was calculated and the burn down chart (well then it wasn’t called that) would reflect gains or losses of profit.

                   

                  It went over like lead balloon.

                   

                  I was going for a psychological effect, but today I wouldn’t advocate it in its original form.  But I still think it is a novel idea worth exploring.

                   

                  From: Mark Graybill [mailto:mark@...]
                  Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 9:57 PM
                  To: 'Mark Graybill'; 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                   

                  Forgot to close with: given all is well as suggested, since story points are later associated with time and time is associated with cost and cost is the other side of the cost/value coin, then value can be finitely measured for completed stories (though with limited accuracy since that cost is likely based on some velocity average).

                   

                  This is a simplistic example, but if a team has a velocity of say 200 story points and the overhead for a sprint is say $80K, then each story point is worth about $400. 

                   

                  So if story A is 20 points, then it could be said to have a value of ~ $8K.

                   

                  From: Mark Graybill [mailto:mark@...]
                  Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 9:16 PM
                  To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                   

                  Sorry, what I meant is that if everyone is doing Scrum well, then:

                   

                  1)      All stories are necessary and are of value to the customer (i.e. no pointless stories), so meeting with product owners was successful.

                   

                  2)      The team has a fairly consistent velocity, measured in story points (this was a given.)

                   

                  Since velocity is associated with a sprint, then cost is a measurable known value because a sprint is associated with time.  Cost and business value are opposite sides of the same coin (a simplistic view of earned value.)

                   

                   

                  From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
                  Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 4:38 AM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                   

                   

                  Hello, Mark. On Saturday, April 2, 2011, at 12:30:59 AM, you
                  wrote:

                  > You’re right if the meeting with owners was not successful in its
                  > objectives. Otherwise, all stories should be of value, IMO.

                  Of value, yes. But story value is not linear with story points.
                  Story points measure cost, not value.

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  The man happy in his work is not the narrow specialist,
                  nor the well-rounded man, but the man who is doing
                  what he loves to do. You must fall in love with some activity.
                  --Richard P. Feynman

                • Ron Jeffries
                  ... No. It has a cost of ~$8000. Its value is not known until people start to use it. If you re doing a product, the value could be millions. If you re
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 5, 2011
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                    Hello, Mark. On Monday, April 4, 2011, at 10:56:57 PM, you wrote:

                    > So if story A is 20 points, then it could be said to have a value of ~ $8K.

                    No. It has a cost of ~$8000. Its value is not known until people
                    start to use it.

                    If you're doing a product, the value could be millions. If you're
                    automating a hospital, the value could be thousands of saved lives.

                    The trouble with "earned value" is that it should have been named
                    "expended cost".

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                    The opinions expressed here /are/ necessarily those of XProgramming.com.
                    But I might change my mind.
                  • Mark Graybill
                    I did say it was simplistic. :) The thread wasn’t about the morality of earned value or to split hairs with terminology but rather explaining “value”
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 5, 2011
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                      I did say it was simplistic. :) The thread wasn’t about the morality of earned value or to split hairs with terminology but rather explaining “value” more generically – value doesn’t necessarily mean income.   

                       

                      But such is the nature of these discussions. :)

                       

                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
                      Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 3:05 AM
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                       

                       

                      Hello, Mark. On Monday, April 4, 2011, at 10:56:57 PM, you wrote:

                      > So if story A is 20 points, then it could be said to have a value of ~ $8K.

                      No. It has a cost of ~$8000. Its value is not known until people
                      start to use it.

                      If you're doing a product, the value could be millions. If you're
                      automating a hospital, the value could be thousands of saved lives.

                      The trouble with "earned value" is that it should have been named
                      "expended cost".

                      Ron Jeffries
                      www.XProgramming.com
                      The opinions expressed here /are/ necessarily those of XProgramming.com.
                      But I might change my mind.

                    • Mark Graybill
                      I missed this before, but the relationship between value – uh hum, cost, is not linear with average velocity. It is however for the sprint a discrete
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 5, 2011
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                        I missed this before, but the relationship between value – uh hum, cost, is not linear with average velocity. It is however for the sprint a discrete velocity is calculated.  But this is obvious of course.

                         

                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
                        Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 3:05 AM
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                         

                         

                        Hello, Mark. On Monday, April 4, 2011, at 10:56:57 PM, you wrote:

                        > So if story A is 20 points, then it could be said to have a value of ~ $8K.

                        No. It has a cost of ~$8000. Its value is not known until people
                        start to use it.

                        If you're doing a product, the value could be millions. If you're
                        automating a hospital, the value could be thousands of saved lives.

                        The trouble with "earned value" is that it should have been named
                        "expended cost".

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                        The opinions expressed here /are/ necessarily those of XProgramming.com.
                        But I might change my mind.

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