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Story points vs Hours

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  • ashish_euphoric@yahoo.com
    Hi, I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 24, 2011
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      Hi,
      I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?

      Ashish
      Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
    • Andrew Burrows
      Hey Ashish, I would try to help your PM to evaluate Story Points as a unit of scale. As long as your team is using story points consistently, you can explain
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 24, 2011
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        Hey Ashish,

        I would try to help your PM to evaluate Story Points as a unit of scale. As long as your team is using story points consistently, you can explain to management how a 20 point story is 4x as difficult or time consuming as a 5 point story, and if the team's velocity is 30 SP then that dictates roughly the scale of work that the team can accomplish in one sprint.

        It sounds like you need to work with your PM by illustrating which stories that the team will commit to, and then delivering those stories and demonstrating functional, usable software. The PM should see the value of the work the team is producing and will start to trust the use of sprint velocity instead of hours.

        Thoughts?

        On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:20 AM, <ashish_euphoric@...> wrote:
        Hi,
        I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?

        Ashish
        Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

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      • mikeabugow
        Hi Ashish, In my experience, after about 3 Sprints, you should be able to do a relation of how many hours it takes to do each story point. My current team
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 24, 2011
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          Hi Ashish,

          In my experience, after about 3 Sprints, you should be able to do a relation of how many hours it takes to do each story point. My current team averages about 7.2 hrs/story point/developer. It's taken us almost 3 Sprints to come up with this value. However, I have not, and will not share this data point with the developers on my team. The whole goal here is to get them to figure out how much effort they plan on committing to. I only have this number because we are contractually obligated to hrs.

          Michael Abugow, CSM
          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, ashish_euphoric@... wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          > I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?
          >
          > Ashish
          > Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
          >
        • ashish_euphoric@yahoo.com
          Thanks , He is convinced to change the scale.But sees no benifit in it .I think it is necessary to have a good scrum imementation when all stake holders talk
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 24, 2011
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            Thanks ,
            He is convinced to change the scale.But sees no benifit in it .I think it is necessary to have a good scrum imementation when all stake holders talk in terms of velocity and story points, and just not the teams.

            Ashish

            Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel


            From: Andrew Burrows <andy@...>
            Sender: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 10:36:40 -0400
            To: <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
            ReplyTo: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: <ashish_euphoric@...>
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

             

            Hey Ashish,


            I would try to help your PM to evaluate Story Points as a unit of scale. As long as your team is using story points consistently, you can explain to management how a 20 point story is 4x as difficult or time consuming as a 5 point story, and if the team's velocity is 30 SP then that dictates roughly the scale of work that the team can accomplish in one sprint.

            It sounds like you need to work with your PM by illustrating which stories that the team will commit to, and then delivering those stories and demonstrating functional, usable software. The PM should see the value of the work the team is producing and will start to trust the use of sprint velocity instead of hours.

            Thoughts?

            On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:20 AM, <ashish_euphoric@...> wrote:
            Hi,
            I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?

            Ashish
            Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

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            Follow me: @readytoscrumble

          • Michael James
            Velocity is indeed more useful than hours, minutes, seconds. But I would put greater emphasis on bringing those stakeholders to the Sprint Review Meetings so
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 24, 2011
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              Velocity is indeed more useful than hours, minutes, seconds.  But I would put greater emphasis on bringing those stakeholders to the Sprint Review Meetings so they can see the potentially-shippable product increments instead of a bunch of numbers.  Engineers and managers make way too much of numbers that were based on guesswork in the first place.

              --mj
              http://ScrumReferenceCard.com



              On Mar 24, 2011, at 7:47 AM, ashish_euphoric@... wrote:

               

              Thanks ,
              He is convinced to change the scale.But sees no benifit in it .I think it is necessary to have a good scrum imementation when all stake holders talk in terms of velocity and story points, and just not the teams.

              Ashish

              Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel


              From: Andrew Burrows <andy@...>
              Sender: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 10:36:40 -0400
              To: <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: <ashish_euphoric@...>
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

               

              Hey Ashish,


              I would try to help your PM to evaluate Story Points as a unit of scale. As long as your team is using story points consistently, you can explain to management how a 20 point story is 4x as difficult or time consuming as a 5 point story, and if the team's velocity is 30 SP then that dictates roughly the scale of work that the team can accomplish in one sprint.

              It sounds like you need to work with your PM by illustrating which stories that the team will commit to, and then delivering those stories and demonstrating functional, usable software. The PM should see the value of the work the team is producing and will start to trust the use of sprint velocity instead of hours.

              Thoughts?

              On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:20 AM, <ashish_euphoric@...> wrote:
              Hi,
              I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?

              Ashish
              Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

              ------------------------------------

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              Senior Producer, Large Animal Games
              Call me: 212-989-4312
              Follow me: @readytoscrumble




            • Raj
              Seems like mangement has hours. And the team has story points, velocity (and hopefully burn-down chart).
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 24, 2011
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                Seems like mangement has hours. And the team has story points, velocity (and hopefully burn-down chart).

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, ashish_euphoric@... wrote:
                >
                > Hi,
                > I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?
                >
                > Ashish
                > Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
                >
              • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                Ashish, I m curious. Has your team been pretty accurate wrt planning using story points and velocity? Have the experts who predict estimates in hours been
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 24, 2011
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                  Ashish,

                  I'm curious. 

                  Has your team been pretty accurate wrt planning using story points and velocity?

                  Have the "experts" who predict estimates in hours been accurate?

                  Which has been more accurate?

                   -------
                  Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                  Experienced Scrum Coach
                  My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/



                  From: "ashish_euphoric@..." <ashish_euphoric@...>
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 8:20:52 AM
                  Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                  Hi,
                  I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?

                  Ashish
                  Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

                  ------------------------------------

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                • JackM
                  Here s a blog that i wrote which helps to explain the benefits of Story Points. http://blog.agilebuddy.com/2009/05/the-significance-of-story-points.html I
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 24, 2011
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                    Here's a blog that i wrote which helps to explain the benefits of Story Points. http://blog.agilebuddy.com/2009/05/the-significance-of-story-points.html

                    I would also suggest you pick up a copy of Mike Cohn's Agile Estimating and Planning. He goes into the benefits in detail.

                    The best thing in my opinion now is that Story Points help to drive the team towards "Doneness" i.e. you don't get a point unless you complete the story completely. This really helps teams to stop starting and start finishing.

                    Additionally Story points is a more accurate way to estimate because it's based on triangulation and comparison, and it's estimated as a team not individually.

                    Hope this helps
                    Jack
                    www.agilebuddy.com

                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, ashish_euphoric@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi,
                    > I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?
                    >
                    > Ashish
                    > Sent from BlackBerry� on Airtel
                    >
                  • Mark Graybill
                    Tell them that application of neuroscience reveals we are bad at visualizing time associated with tasks and sizing that we have not done exactly before. Just
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 24, 2011
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                      Tell them that application of neuroscience reveals we are bad at visualizing
                      time associated with tasks and sizing that we have not done exactly before.
                      Just about any word or object associated with time triggers automatic
                      thought processes regarding time and we just aren't wired to do this well.

                      So by using story points, we remove those triggers, focus on what we are
                      better at estimating (size), and then we do development in a time framework
                      that is short, repeatable and consistent. We get better at our estimation
                      because the time element is removed.

                      For project stats, time associated with effort is then revealed outside of
                      the estimation process.

                      You can read more here...

                      http://scrumscience.blogspot.com/2011/03/one-reason-time-forecasts-are-so.ht
                      ml


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      ashish_euphoric@...
                      Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 9:21 AM
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                      Hi,
                      I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of
                      release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is
                      still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have
                      tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than
                      precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better
                      visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts
                      who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work
                      around this ?

                      Ashish
                      Sent from BlackBerryR on Airtel

                      ------------------------------------

                      To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                    • Erin Beierwaltes
                      I was just having this discussion with another coach.. I see story points as a predictive measure of business value that takes into account much more than just
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 1, 2011
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                        I was just having this discussion with another coach..

                         

                        I see story points as a predictive measure of business value that takes into account much more than just effort (ie. Interrupts, meetings, day to day stuff), which is often all you get with an hour’s estimate. However, this only works if your team has become consistent and that the velocity has become predictive.

                         

                        In reality, this is just as good as traditional earned value if implemented well. Again, the main goal being an accurate measurement that takes into account how quickly a team can deliver business value and can be used to predict future releases.

                         

                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                        Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:25 AM
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                         

                         

                        Ashish,

                        I'm curious. 

                        Has your team been pretty accurate wrt planning using story points and velocity?

                        Have the "experts" who predict estimates in hours been accurate?

                        Which has been more accurate?

                         -------
                        Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                        Experienced Scrum Coach
                        My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

                         

                         


                        From: "ashish_euphoric@..." <ashish_euphoric@...>
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 8:20:52 AM
                        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                        Hi,
                        I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?

                        Ashish
                        Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

                        ------------------------------------

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                      • mj4scrum@gmail.com
                        Seems completely independent of business value to me. Something could be easy to do and valuable, or hard and pointless, and all other combinations. Sent from
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 1, 2011
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                          Seems completely independent of business value to me. Something could be easy to do and valuable, or hard and pointless, and all other combinations. 

                          Sent from my iPhone

                          On Apr 1, 2011, at 4:42 PM, "Erin Beierwaltes" <erin@...> wrote:

                           

                          I was just having this discussion with another coach..

                           

                          I see story points as a predictive measure of business value that takes into account much more than just effort (ie. Interrupts, meetings, day to day stuff), which is often all you get with an hour’s estimate. However, this only works if your team has become consistent and that the velocity has become predictive.

                           

                          In reality, this is just as good as traditional earned value if implemented well. Again, the main goal being an accurate measurement that takes into account how quickly a team can deliver business value and can be used to predict future releases.

                           

                          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                          Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:25 AM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                           

                           

                          Ashish,

                          I'm curious. 

                          Has your team been pretty accurate wrt planning using story points and velocity?

                          Have the "experts" who predict estimates in hours been accurate?

                          Which has been more accurate?

                           -------
                          Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                          Experienced Scrum Coach
                          My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

                           

                           


                          From: "ashish_euphoric@..." <ashish_euphoric@...>
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 8:20:52 AM
                          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                          Hi,
                          I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?

                          Ashish
                          Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

                          ------------------------------------

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                          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links

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                        • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                          +1 to Mj s comment ... Did Erin mean : I see story points as a predictive measure of delivering business value that takes... ?? ... Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 1, 2011
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                            +1 to Mj's comment

                            > I see story points as a predictive measure of business value that take

                            Did Erin mean :

                            I see story points as a predictive measure of delivering business value that takes...
                             
                            ??

                            -------
                            Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                            Experienced Scrum Coach
                            My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/



                            From: "mj4scrum@..." <mj4scrum@...>
                            To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Fri, April 1, 2011 2:53:13 PM
                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours



                            Seems completely independent of business value to me. Something could be easy to do and valuable, or hard and pointless, and all other combinations. 

                            Sent from my iPhone

                            On Apr 1, 2011, at 4:42 PM, "Erin Beierwaltes" <erin@...> wrote:

                             

                            I was just having this discussion with another coach..

                             

                            I see story points as a predictive measure of business value that takes into account much more than just effort (ie. Interrupts, meetings, day to day stuff), which is often all you get with an hour’s estimate. However, this only works if your team has become consistent and that the velocity has become predictive.

                             

                            In reality, this is just as good as traditional earned value if implemented well. Again, the main goal being an accurate measurement that takes into account how quickly a team can deliver business value and can be used to predict future releases.

                             

                            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                            Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:25 AM
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                             

                             

                            Ashish,

                            I'm curious. 

                            Has your team been pretty accurate wrt planning using story points and velocity?

                            Have the "experts" who predict estimates in hours been accurate?

                            Which has been more accurate?

                             -------
                            Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                            Experienced Scrum Coach
                            My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

                             

                             


                            From: "ashish_euphoric@..." <ashish_euphoric@...>
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 8:20:52 AM
                            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                            Hi,
                            I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?

                            Ashish
                            Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

                            ------------------------------------

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                          • Erin Beierwaltes
                            Yes, that is what I meant. Sorry. Its Friday J From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Bradley -
                            Message 13 of 21 , Apr 1, 2011
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                              Yes, that is what I meant. Sorry. Its Friday J

                               

                              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                              Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 3:07 PM
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                               

                               

                              +1 to Mj's comment

                              > I see story points as a predictive measure of business value that take

                              Did Erin mean :

                              I see story points as a predictive measure of delivering business value that takes...

                               
                              ??

                              -------
                              Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                              Experienced Scrum Coach
                              My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

                               

                               


                              From: "mj4scrum@..." <mj4scrum@...>
                              To: "scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com" <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Fri, April 1, 2011 2:53:13 PM
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours


                              Seems completely independent of business value to me. Something could be easy to do and valuable, or hard and pointless, and all other combinations. 

                              Sent from my iPhone


                              On Apr 1, 2011, at 4:42 PM, "Erin Beierwaltes" <erin@...> wrote:

                               

                              I was just having this discussion with another coach..

                               

                              I see story points as a predictive measure of business value that takes into account much more than just effort (ie. Interrupts, meetings, day to day stuff), which is often all you get with an hour’s estimate. However, this only works if your team has become consistent and that the velocity has become predictive.

                               

                              In reality, this is just as good as traditional earned value if implemented well. Again, the main goal being an accurate measurement that takes into account how quickly a team can deliver business value and can be used to predict future releases.

                               

                              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                              Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:25 AM
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                               

                               

                              Ashish,

                              I'm curious. 

                              Has your team been pretty accurate wrt planning using story points and velocity?

                              Have the "experts" who predict estimates in hours been accurate?

                              Which has been more accurate?

                               -------
                              Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                              Experienced Scrum Coach
                              My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

                               

                               


                              From: "ashish_euphoric@..." <ashish_euphoric@...>
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 8:20:52 AM
                              Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                              Hi,
                              I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?

                              Ashish
                              Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

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                            • Mark Graybill
                              You’re right if the meeting with owners was not successful in its objectives. Otherwise, all stories should be of value, IMO. From:
                              Message 14 of 21 , Apr 1, 2011
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                                You’re right if the meeting with owners was not successful in its objectives.  Otherwise, all stories should be of value, IMO.

                                 

                                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mj4scrum@...
                                Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 3:53 PM
                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                                 

                                 

                                Seems completely independent of business value to me. Something could be easy to do and valuable, or hard and pointless, and all other combinations. 

                                Sent from my iPhone


                                On Apr 1, 2011, at 4:42 PM, "Erin Beierwaltes" <erin@...> wrote:

                                 

                                I was just having this discussion with another coach..

                                 

                                I see story points as a predictive measure of business value that takes into account much more than just effort (ie. Interrupts, meetings, day to day stuff), which is often all you get with an hour’s estimate. However, this only works if your team has become consistent and that the velocity has become predictive.

                                 

                                In reality, this is just as good as traditional earned value if implemented well. Again, the main goal being an accurate measurement that takes into account how quickly a team can deliver business value and can be used to predict future releases.

                                 

                                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                                Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:25 AM
                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                                 

                                 

                                Ashish,

                                I'm curious. 

                                Has your team been pretty accurate wrt planning using story points and velocity?

                                Have the "experts" who predict estimates in hours been accurate?

                                Which has been more accurate?

                                 -------
                                Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                Experienced Scrum Coach
                                My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/

                                 

                                 


                                From: "ashish_euphoric@..." <ashish_euphoric@...>
                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 8:20:52 AM
                                Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                                Hi,
                                I am having a hard time explaining the project management the benifits of release planning using story points and velocity.the project commitment is still done in hours and teams work with story points and velocity.I have tried explaing a lot abt being roughly right with story points rather than precisely wrong with hours,the team ownership,motivation and better visibility.they feel comfortable doing all this with hours,given by experts who donot actually code.has any one encountered such situation?any work around this ?

                                Ashish
                                Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

                                ------------------------------------

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                                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links

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                              • Ron Jeffries
                                Hello, Mark. On Saturday, April 2, 2011, at 12:30:59 AM, you ... Of value, yes. But story value is not linear with story points. Story points measure cost,
                                Message 15 of 21 , Apr 2, 2011
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                                  Hello, Mark. On Saturday, April 2, 2011, at 12:30:59 AM, you
                                  wrote:

                                  > You’re right if the meeting with owners was not successful in its
                                  > objectives. Otherwise, all stories should be of value, IMO.

                                  Of value, yes. But story value is not linear with story points.
                                  Story points measure cost, not value.

                                  Ron Jeffries
                                  www.XProgramming.com
                                  The man happy in his work is not the narrow specialist,
                                  nor the well-rounded man, but the man who is doing
                                  what he loves to do. You must fall in love with some activity.
                                  --Richard P. Feynman
                                • Mark Graybill
                                  Sorry, what I meant is that if everyone is doing Scrum well, then: 1) All stories are necessary and are of value to the customer (i.e. no pointless
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Apr 4, 2011
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                                    Sorry, what I meant is that if everyone is doing Scrum well, then:

                                     

                                    1)      All stories are necessary and are of value to the customer (i.e. no pointless stories), so meeting with product owners was successful.

                                     

                                    2)      The team has a fairly consistent velocity, measured in story points (this was a given.)

                                     

                                    Since velocity is associated with a sprint, then cost is a measurable known value because a sprint is associated with time.  Cost and business value are opposite sides of the same coin (a simplistic view of earned value.)

                                     

                                     

                                    From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
                                    Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 4:38 AM
                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                                     

                                     

                                    Hello, Mark. On Saturday, April 2, 2011, at 12:30:59 AM, you
                                    wrote:

                                    > You’re right if the meeting with owners was not successful in its
                                    > objectives. Otherwise, all stories should be of value, IMO.

                                    Of value, yes. But story value is not linear with story points.
                                    Story points measure cost, not value.

                                    Ron Jeffries
                                    www.XProgramming.com
                                    The man happy in his work is not the narrow specialist,
                                    nor the well-rounded man, but the man who is doing
                                    what he loves to do. You must fall in love with some activity.
                                    --Richard P. Feynman

                                  • Mark Graybill
                                    Forgot to close with: given all is well as suggested, since story points are later associated with time and time is associated with cost and cost is the other
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Apr 4, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment

                                      Forgot to close with: given all is well as suggested, since story points are later associated with time and time is associated with cost and cost is the other side of the cost/value coin, then value can be finitely measured for completed stories (though with limited accuracy since that cost is likely based on some velocity average).

                                       

                                      This is a simplistic example, but if a team has a velocity of say 200 story points and the overhead for a sprint is say $80K, then each story point is worth about $400. 

                                       

                                      So if story A is 20 points, then it could be said to have a value of ~ $8K.

                                       

                                      From: Mark Graybill [mailto:mark@...]
                                      Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 9:16 PM
                                      To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
                                      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                                       

                                      Sorry, what I meant is that if everyone is doing Scrum well, then:

                                       

                                      1)      All stories are necessary and are of value to the customer (i.e. no pointless stories), so meeting with product owners was successful.

                                       

                                      2)      The team has a fairly consistent velocity, measured in story points (this was a given.)

                                       

                                      Since velocity is associated with a sprint, then cost is a measurable known value because a sprint is associated with time.  Cost and business value are opposite sides of the same coin (a simplistic view of earned value.)

                                       

                                       

                                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
                                      Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 4:38 AM
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                                       

                                       

                                      Hello, Mark. On Saturday, April 2, 2011, at 12:30:59 AM, you
                                      wrote:

                                      > You’re right if the meeting with owners was not successful in its
                                      > objectives. Otherwise, all stories should be of value, IMO.

                                      Of value, yes. But story value is not linear with story points.
                                      Story points measure cost, not value.

                                      Ron Jeffries
                                      www.XProgramming.com
                                      The man happy in his work is not the narrow specialist,
                                      nor the well-rounded man, but the man who is doing
                                      what he loves to do. You must fall in love with some activity.
                                      --Richard P. Feynman

                                    • Mark Graybill
                                      I just have to share this, but a while back I suggested that projected profit be calculated from the customer price and the projected completion/costs. Based
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Apr 4, 2011
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                                        I just have to share this, but a while back I suggested that projected profit be calculated from the customer price and the projected completion/costs.

                                         

                                        Based on status reports, project completion was calculated and the burn down chart (well then it wasn’t called that) would reflect gains or losses of profit.

                                         

                                        It went over like lead balloon.

                                         

                                        I was going for a psychological effect, but today I wouldn’t advocate it in its original form.  But I still think it is a novel idea worth exploring.

                                         

                                        From: Mark Graybill [mailto:mark@...]
                                        Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 9:57 PM
                                        To: 'Mark Graybill'; 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
                                        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                                         

                                        Forgot to close with: given all is well as suggested, since story points are later associated with time and time is associated with cost and cost is the other side of the cost/value coin, then value can be finitely measured for completed stories (though with limited accuracy since that cost is likely based on some velocity average).

                                         

                                        This is a simplistic example, but if a team has a velocity of say 200 story points and the overhead for a sprint is say $80K, then each story point is worth about $400. 

                                         

                                        So if story A is 20 points, then it could be said to have a value of ~ $8K.

                                         

                                        From: Mark Graybill [mailto:mark@...]
                                        Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 9:16 PM
                                        To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
                                        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                                         

                                        Sorry, what I meant is that if everyone is doing Scrum well, then:

                                         

                                        1)      All stories are necessary and are of value to the customer (i.e. no pointless stories), so meeting with product owners was successful.

                                         

                                        2)      The team has a fairly consistent velocity, measured in story points (this was a given.)

                                         

                                        Since velocity is associated with a sprint, then cost is a measurable known value because a sprint is associated with time.  Cost and business value are opposite sides of the same coin (a simplistic view of earned value.)

                                         

                                         

                                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
                                        Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 4:38 AM
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                                         

                                         

                                        Hello, Mark. On Saturday, April 2, 2011, at 12:30:59 AM, you
                                        wrote:

                                        > You’re right if the meeting with owners was not successful in its
                                        > objectives. Otherwise, all stories should be of value, IMO.

                                        Of value, yes. But story value is not linear with story points.
                                        Story points measure cost, not value.

                                        Ron Jeffries
                                        www.XProgramming.com
                                        The man happy in his work is not the narrow specialist,
                                        nor the well-rounded man, but the man who is doing
                                        what he loves to do. You must fall in love with some activity.
                                        --Richard P. Feynman

                                      • Ron Jeffries
                                        ... No. It has a cost of ~$8000. Its value is not known until people start to use it. If you re doing a product, the value could be millions. If you re
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Apr 5, 2011
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                                          Hello, Mark. On Monday, April 4, 2011, at 10:56:57 PM, you wrote:

                                          > So if story A is 20 points, then it could be said to have a value of ~ $8K.

                                          No. It has a cost of ~$8000. Its value is not known until people
                                          start to use it.

                                          If you're doing a product, the value could be millions. If you're
                                          automating a hospital, the value could be thousands of saved lives.

                                          The trouble with "earned value" is that it should have been named
                                          "expended cost".

                                          Ron Jeffries
                                          www.XProgramming.com
                                          The opinions expressed here /are/ necessarily those of XProgramming.com.
                                          But I might change my mind.
                                        • Mark Graybill
                                          I did say it was simplistic. :) The thread wasn’t about the morality of earned value or to split hairs with terminology but rather explaining “value”
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Apr 5, 2011
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                                            I did say it was simplistic. :) The thread wasn’t about the morality of earned value or to split hairs with terminology but rather explaining “value” more generically – value doesn’t necessarily mean income.   

                                             

                                            But such is the nature of these discussions. :)

                                             

                                            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
                                            Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 3:05 AM
                                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                                             

                                             

                                            Hello, Mark. On Monday, April 4, 2011, at 10:56:57 PM, you wrote:

                                            > So if story A is 20 points, then it could be said to have a value of ~ $8K.

                                            No. It has a cost of ~$8000. Its value is not known until people
                                            start to use it.

                                            If you're doing a product, the value could be millions. If you're
                                            automating a hospital, the value could be thousands of saved lives.

                                            The trouble with "earned value" is that it should have been named
                                            "expended cost".

                                            Ron Jeffries
                                            www.XProgramming.com
                                            The opinions expressed here /are/ necessarily those of XProgramming.com.
                                            But I might change my mind.

                                          • Mark Graybill
                                            I missed this before, but the relationship between value – uh hum, cost, is not linear with average velocity. It is however for the sprint a discrete
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Apr 5, 2011
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                                              I missed this before, but the relationship between value – uh hum, cost, is not linear with average velocity. It is however for the sprint a discrete velocity is calculated.  But this is obvious of course.

                                               

                                              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
                                              Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 3:05 AM
                                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Story points vs Hours

                                               

                                               

                                              Hello, Mark. On Monday, April 4, 2011, at 10:56:57 PM, you wrote:

                                              > So if story A is 20 points, then it could be said to have a value of ~ $8K.

                                              No. It has a cost of ~$8000. Its value is not known until people
                                              start to use it.

                                              If you're doing a product, the value could be millions. If you're
                                              automating a hospital, the value could be thousands of saved lives.

                                              The trouble with "earned value" is that it should have been named
                                              "expended cost".

                                              Ron Jeffries
                                              www.XProgramming.com
                                              The opinions expressed here /are/ necessarily those of XProgramming.com.
                                              But I might change my mind.

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