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Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance

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  • Markus Gaertner
    Hi Charles, mentioning the Definition of Done alone has led to much confusion in nearly all classes that I taught. In order to avoid this confusion I now
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 7, 2011
      Hi Charles,

      mentioning the "Definition of Done" alone has led to much confusion in nearly all classes that I taught. In order to avoid this confusion I now explain that therer are acceptance criteria valid per user story, while there is also a Definition of Done as contract between the ProductOwner and the Team that expresses the negotiated agreement on what has happened for /any/ story that moved to "Done".

      Still, lots of confusion, and I found that participants often confuse "Definition of Done" with Acceptance Criteria.

      Best
      Dipl.-Inform. Markus Gärtner
      http://www.shino.de/blog
      http://www.it-agile.de
      Twitter: @mgaertne

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
      >
      > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
      >
      > * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product Baklog Item(PBI),
      > if you will)or said another way:
      >
      > * The Definition of Done is different for each story.I don't agree with this.
      >
      > There is a subtle but important difference between the Definition of Done and
      > Acceptance Criteria. It is summarized as follows:
      >
      > Definition of Done:
      >
      > * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
      >
      > * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment is shippable
      >
      > * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
      > * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
      > * Overall Software Quality
      > * Whether the increment is shippable or not Acceptance Criteria
      > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some cases "Test Cases,"
      > etc)
      >
      > * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
      >
      > * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
      >
      > * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
      > * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the requirements for a
      > particular PBI/story have been met
      > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the Definition of Done for
      > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the product increment meets that PBI's
      > specific acceptance criteria.
      >
      > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the converse is also
      > always true: "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of Done." For instance,
      > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition of Done, but not be
      > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
      >
      > * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
      >
      > * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in a test environment
      >
      > * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
      > -------
      > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
      > Experienced Scrum Coach
      > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
      >
    • kbs_kulbhushan
      Hello Charles, This would mean that the stories are not marked Done for a long time. Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately required
      Message 2 of 26 , Mar 7, 2011
        Hello Charles,


        This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a long time.
        Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately required
        by PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in which it
        also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
        criterion". The PO can always prioritize as required.

        This points at "Done" being different for each User Story and it is the
        parameter which is tracked.


        Regards,


        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B <chuck-lists2@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
        >
        > * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product Baklog
        Item(PBI),
        > if you will)or said another way:
        >
        > * The Definition of Done is different for each story.I don't agree
        with this.
        >
        > There is a subtle but important difference between the Definition of
        Done and
        > Acceptance Criteria. It is summarized as follows:
        >
        > Definition of Done:
        >
        > * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
        >
        > * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment is
        shippable
        >
        > * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
        > * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
        > * Overall Software Quality
        > * Whether the increment is shippable or not Acceptance Criteria
        > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some cases "Test
        Cases,"
        > etc)
        >
        > * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
        >
        > * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
        >
        > * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
        > * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the requirements
        for a
        > particular PBI/story have been met
        > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the Definition of
        Done for
        > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the product increment meets that
        PBI's
        > specific acceptance criteria.
        >
        > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the converse is
        also
        > always true: "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of Done." For
        instance,
        > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition of Done,
        but not be
        > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
        >
        > * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
        >
        > * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in a test
        environment
        >
        > * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
        > -------
        > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
        > Experienced Scrum Coach
        > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
        >
      • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
        kbs_kulbhushan, That was my whole point. Stories are not marked Done. The way the Scrum Guide is written (and btw, I m not a fan of this - I believe it to
        Message 3 of 26 , Mar 7, 2011
          kbs_kulbhushan,

          That was my whole point.  Stories are not "marked Done."  The way the Scrum Guide is written (and btw, I'm not a fan of this - I believe it to be confusing), the "Definition of Done"(DoD) applies to an increment as a whole, not individual stories.

          IMO, it would be better to call a story "Complete" or "Accepted" rather than "Done", if for no other reason than keeping the terminology straight and clear.

          I think others have coined the phrase "Done Done".  So, while a story might be considered "Done" (Accepted/Completed), the increment might be considered "Done Done" (where "Done Done" is defined as an increment meeting the "Definition of Done").  I'm not a huge fan of this terminology either.

          I almost would prefer that the Scrum Guide come up with a new term for "Definition of Done".  Something like "Quality Agreement" or "Software Quality Standard" or "Quality Standard" or "Completion Standard" or "Increment Quality Standard", or something else that stands a little more unique so that a general word like "Done" doesn't come to mean 5 different things in Scrum.

          -------
          Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
          Experienced Scrum Coach
          My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/



          From: kbs_kulbhushan <kbs_kulbhushan@...>
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 5:37:14 AM
          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance

          Hello Charles,


          This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a long time.
          Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately required
          by PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in which it
          also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
          criterion". The PO can always prioritize as required.

          This points at "Done" being different for each User Story and it is the
          parameter which is tracked.


          Regards,


          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B <chuck-lists2@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
          >
          >  * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product Baklog
          Item(PBI),
          > if you will)or said another way:
          >
          >  * The Definition of Done
          is different for each story.I don't agree
          with this.
          >
          > There is a subtle but important difference between the Definition of
          Done and
          > Acceptance Criteria.  It is summarized as follows:
          >
          > Definition of Done:
          >
          >  * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
          >
          >  * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment is
          shippable
          >
          >  * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
          >  * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
          >  * Overall Software Quality
          >  * Whether the increment is shippable or not    Acceptance Criteria
          > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some cases "Test
          Cases,"
          > etc)
          >
          >  * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
          >
          >  * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each
          PBI/Story
          >
          >  * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
          >  * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the requirements
          for a
          > particular PBI/story have been met
          > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the Definition of
          Done for
          > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the product increment meets that
          PBI's
          > specific acceptance criteria.
          >
          > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the converse is
          also
          > always true:  "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of Done."  For
          instance,
          > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition of Done,
          but not be
          > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
          >
          >  * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
          >
          >  * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in a
          test
          environment
          >
          >  * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
          >  -------
          > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
          > Experienced Scrum Coach
          > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
          >




          ------------------------------------

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        • Markus Gaertner
          A quality standard as you coined it is also ambiguous. Referring to Weinberg s Quality is value to some person , quality as a term is confusing enough to mean
          Message 4 of 26 , Mar 7, 2011
            A quality standard as you coined it is also ambiguous. Referring to Weinberg's "Quality is value to some person", quality as a term is confusing enough to mean different things to different people. Consider the difference in internal vs. external quality, or just the difference between quality as perceived by the product owner vs. quality as perceived by the customer vs. quality as perceived by the inidividual team member.

            Coining the "Definition of Done" a quality standard would rather make things more confusing. Think about the process of ATDD where you denote for each story acceptance criteria on the back of the card. Are these the quality standard? Or is this something different now? Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg.

            Instead, I like to call it the team contract between the PO and the team who implements it. It's a contract between the voice of the what and the tribe of the how.

            Referring back, of course, done means done to some person in the beginning, as it is subject to the Relative Rule (see The Gift of Time, Michael Bolton's chapter). Done means Done to some person. Calling it quality instead of done does not improve the situation, from my point it worsens it.

            Best
            Markus Gaertner
            http://www.shino.de/blog
            http://www.it-agile.de
            Twitter: @mgaertne


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: chuck-lists2@...
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Date: 07.03.2011 14:34:55
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance


            > kbs_kulbhushan,
            >
            > That was my whole point. Stories are not "marked Done." The way the Scrum
            > Guide is written (and btw, I'm not a fan of this - I believe it to be
            > confusing), the "Definition of Done"(DoD) applies to an increment as a whole,
            > not individual stories.
            >
            > IMO, it would be better to call a story "Complete" or "Accepted" rather than
            > "Done", if for no other reason than keeping the terminology straight and clear.
            >
            > I think others have coined the phrase "Done Done". So, while a story might be
            > considered "Done" (Accepted/Completed), the increment might be considered "Done
            > Done" (where "Done Done" is defined as an increment meeting the "Definition of
            > Done"). I'm not a huge fan of this terminology either.
            >
            > I almost would prefer that the Scrum Guide come up with a new term for
            > "Definition of Done". Something like "Quality Agreement" or "Software Quality
            > Standard" or "Quality Standard" or "Completion Standard" or "Increment Quality
            > Standard", or something else that stands a little more unique so that a general
            > word like "Done" doesn't come to mean 5 different things in Scrum.
            >
            > -------
            > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
            > Experienced Scrum Coach
            > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: kbs_kulbhushan
            > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 5:37:14 AM
            > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance
            >
            > Hello Charles,
            >
            >
            > This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a long time.
            > Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately required
            > by PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in which it
            > also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
            > criterion". The PO can always prioritize as required.
            >
            > This points at "Done" being different for each User Story and it is the
            > parameter which is tracked.
            >
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            >
            > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
            > >
            > > * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product Baklog
            > Item(PBI),
            > > if you will)or said another way:
            > >
            > > * The Definition of Done is different for each story.I don't agree
            > with this.
            > >
            > > There is a subtle but important difference between the Definition of
            > Done and
            > > Acceptance Criteria. It is summarized as follows:
            > >
            > > Definition of Done:
            > >
            > > * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
            > >
            > > * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment is
            > shippable
            > >
            > > * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
            > > * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
            > > * Overall Software Quality
            > > * Whether the increment is shippable or not Acceptance Criteria
            > > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some cases "Test
            > Cases,"
            > > etc)
            > >
            > > * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
            > >
            > > * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
            > >
            > > * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
            > > * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the requirements
            > for a
            > > particular PBI/story have been met
            > > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the Definition of
            > Done for
            > > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the product increment meets that
            > PBI's
            > > specific acceptance criteria.
            > >
            > > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the converse is
            > also
            > > always true: "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of Done." For
            > instance,
            > > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition of Done,
            > but not be
            > > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
            > >
            > > * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
            > >
            > > * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in a test
            > environment
            > >
            > > * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
            > > -------
            > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
            > > Experienced Scrum Coach
            > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
            Isn t the Definition of Done a Quality standard to the PO ? While the term itself might define a concept, it definitely WILL be different to each
            Message 5 of 26 , Mar 7, 2011
              Isn't the "Definition of Done" a "Quality standard to the PO" ?  While the term itself might define a concept, it definitely WILL be different to each person... and in this case.. that person is the Scrum PO.

              I agree that "Quality Standard" is probably not the best alternative term, but that's why I gave several others as examples.  :-)
               
              -------
              Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
              Experienced Scrum Coach
              My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/



              From: Markus Gaertner <shino@...>
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 7:07:48 AM
              Subject: Re: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance

              A quality standard as you coined it is also ambiguous. Referring to Weinberg's "Quality is value to some person", quality as a term is confusing enough to mean different things to different people. Consider the difference in internal vs. external quality, or just the difference between quality as perceived by the product owner vs. quality as perceived by the customer vs. quality as perceived by the inidividual team member.

              Coining the "Definition of Done" a quality standard would rather make things more confusing. Think about the process of ATDD where you denote for each story acceptance criteria on the back of the card. Are these the quality standard? Or is this something different now? Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg.

              Instead, I like to call it the team contract between the PO and the team who implements it. It's a contract between the voice of the what and the tribe of the how.

              Referring back, of course, done means done to some person in the beginning, as it is subject to the Relative Rule (see The Gift of Time, Michael Bolton's chapter). Done means Done to some person. Calling it quality instead of done does not improve the situation, from my point it worsens it.

              Best
              Markus Gaertner
              http://www.shino.de/blog
              http://www.it-agile.de
              Twitter: @mgaertne


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: chuck-lists2@...
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Date: 07.03.2011 14:34:55
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance


              > kbs_kulbhushan,
              >
              > That was my whole point.  Stories are not "marked Done."  The way the Scrum
              > Guide is written (and btw, I'm not a fan of this - I believe it to be
              > confusing), the "Definition of Done"(DoD) applies to an increment as a whole,
              > not individual stories.
              >
              > IMO, it would be better to call a story "Complete" or "Accepted" rather than
              > "Done", if for no other reason than keeping the terminology straight and clear.
              >
              > I think others have coined the phrase "Done Done".  So, while a story might be
              > considered "Done" (Accepted/Completed), the increment might be considered "Done
              > Done" (where "Done Done" is defined as an increment meeting the "Definition of
              > Done").  I'm not a huge fan of this terminology either.
              >
              > I almost would prefer that the Scrum Guide come up with a new term for
              > "Definition of Done".  Something like "Quality Agreement" or "Software Quality
              > Standard" or "Quality Standard" or "Completion Standard" or "Increment Quality
              > Standard", or something else that stands a little more unique so that a general
              > word like "Done" doesn't come to mean 5 different things in Scrum.
              >
              > -------
              > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
              > Experienced Scrum Coach
              > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: kbs_kulbhushan
              > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 5:37:14 AM
              > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance
              >
              > Hello Charles,
              >
              >
              > This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a long time.
              > Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately required
              > by PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in which it
              > also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
              > criterion". The PO can always prioritize as required.
              >
              > This points at "Done" being different for each User Story and it is the
              > parameter which is tracked.
              >
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              >
              > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
              > >
              > >  * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product Baklog
              > Item(PBI),
              > > if you will)or said another way:
              > >
              > >  * The Definition of Done is different for each story.I don't agree
              > with this.
              > >
              > > There is a subtle but important difference between the Definition of
              > Done and
              > > Acceptance Criteria.  It is summarized as follows:
              > >
              > > Definition of Done:
              > >
              > >  * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
              > >
              > >  * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment is
              > shippable
              > >
              > >  * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
              > >  * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
              > >  * Overall Software Quality
              > >  * Whether the increment is shippable or not    Acceptance Criteria
              > > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some cases "Test
              > Cases,"
              > > etc)
              > >
              > >  * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
              > >
              > >  * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
              > >
              > >  * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
              > >  * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the requirements
              > for a
              > > particular PBI/story have been met
              > > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the Definition of
              > Done for
              > > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the product increment meets that
              > PBI's
              > > specific acceptance criteria.
              > >
              > > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the converse is
              > also
              > > always true:  "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of Done."  For
              > instance,
              > > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition of Done,
              > but not be
              > > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
              > >
              > >  * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
              > >
              > >  * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in a test
              > environment
              > >
              > >  * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
              > >  -------
              > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
              > > Experienced Scrum Coach
              > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to:  scrumdevelopment@...
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






              ------------------------------------

              To Post a message, send it to:  scrumdevelopment@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links

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            • Alan Dayley
              I personally don t think it is possible to define universal terms for done or quality or any term for these concepts. Each company, customer, team and
              Message 6 of 26 , Mar 7, 2011
                I personally don't think it is possible to define universal terms for "done" or "quality" or any term for these concepts.  Each company, customer, team and person will have a different idea about them.  And each of them can be right in their context.  What is important is that such terms be well defined within a specific development organization, including the customer.  This is possible over time if full transparency and high levels of communication is happening.

                As long as the "definition of done" for Company A is understood and acceptable to the people in Company A and the customers of Company A it doesn't matter that it differs from Company B and Company B's customers.  Well, it matters to us who try to teach and talk with a wide industry view.  But industry wide needs are very secondary to the needs of each development ecosystem.

                Alan

                On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                 

                Isn't the "Definition of Done" a "Quality standard to the PO" ?  While the term itself might define a concept, it definitely WILL be different to each person... and in this case.. that person is the Scrum PO.

                I agree that "Quality Standard" is probably not the best alternative term, but that's why I gave several others as examples.  :-)

                 
                -------
                Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                Experienced Scrum Coach
                My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/



                From: Markus Gaertner <shino@...>
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 7:07:48 AM
                Subject: Re: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance

                A quality standard as you coined it is also ambiguous. Referring to Weinberg's "Quality is value to some person", quality as a term is confusing enough to mean different things to different people. Consider the difference in internal vs. external quality, or just the difference between quality as perceived by the product owner vs. quality as perceived by the customer vs. quality as perceived by the inidividual team member.

                Coining the "Definition of Done" a quality standard would rather make things more confusing. Think about the process of ATDD where you denote for each story acceptance criteria on the back of the card. Are these the quality standard? Or is this something different now? Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg.

                Instead, I like to call it the team contract between the PO and the team who implements it. It's a contract between the voice of the what and the tribe of the how.

                Referring back, of course, done means done to some person in the beginning, as it is subject to the Relative Rule (see The Gift of Time, Michael Bolton's chapter). Done means Done to some person. Calling it quality instead of done does not improve the situation, from my point it worsens it.

                Best
                Markus Gaertner
                http://www.shino.de/blog
                http://www.it-agile.de
                Twitter: @mgaertne


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: chuck-lists2@...
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Date: 07.03.2011 14:34:55
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance


                > kbs_kulbhushan,
                >
                > That was my whole point.  Stories are not "marked Done."  The way the Scrum
                > Guide is written (and btw, I'm not a fan of this - I believe it to be
                > confusing), the "Definition of Done"(DoD) applies to an increment as a whole,
                > not individual stories.
                >
                > IMO, it would be better to call a story "Complete" or "Accepted" rather than
                > "Done", if for no other reason than keeping the terminology straight and clear.
                >
                > I think others have coined the phrase "Done Done".  So, while a story might be
                > considered "Done" (Accepted/Completed), the increment might be considered "Done
                > Done" (where "Done Done" is defined as an increment meeting the "Definition of
                > Done").  I'm not a huge fan of this terminology either.
                >
                > I almost would prefer that the Scrum Guide come up with a new term for
                > "Definition of Done".  Something like "Quality Agreement" or "Software Quality
                > Standard" or "Quality Standard" or "Completion Standard" or "Increment Quality
                > Standard", or something else that stands a little more unique so that a general
                > word like "Done" doesn't come to mean 5 different things in Scrum.
                >
                > -------
                > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                > Experienced Scrum Coach
                > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: kbs_kulbhushan
                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 5:37:14 AM
                > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance
                >
                > Hello Charles,
                >
                >
                > This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a long time.
                > Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately required
                > by PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in which it
                > also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
                > criterion". The PO can always prioritize as required.
                >
                > This points at "Done" being different for each User Story and it is the
                > parameter which is tracked.
                >
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                >
                > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
                > >
                > >  * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product Baklog
                > Item(PBI),
                > > if you will)or said another way:
                > >
                > >  * The Definition of Done is different for each story.I don't agree
                > with this.
                > >
                > > There is a subtle but important difference between the Definition of
                > Done and
                > > Acceptance Criteria.  It is summarized as follows:
                > >
                > > Definition of Done:
                > >
                > >  * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
                > >
                > >  * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment is
                > shippable
                > >
                > >  * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
                > >  * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
                > >  * Overall Software Quality
                > >  * Whether the increment is shippable or not    Acceptance Criteria
                > > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some cases "Test
                > Cases,"
                > > etc)
                > >
                > >  * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
                > >
                > >  * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
                > >
                > >  * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
                > >  * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the requirements
                > for a
                > > particular PBI/story have been met
                > > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the Definition of
                > Done for
                > > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the product increment meets that
                > PBI's
                > > specific acceptance criteria.
                > >
                > > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the converse is
                > also
                > > always true:  "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of Done."  For
                > instance,
                > > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition of Done,
                > but not be
                > > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
                > >
                > >  * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
                > >
                > >  * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in a test
                > environment
                > >
                > >  * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
                > >  -------
                > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to:  scrumdevelopment@...
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






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              • ronjeffries@acm.org
                Indeed. To me, the point, and the elegance, of Definition of Done is that it is a team-owned evolving standard reflecting what they, in their situation, need
                Message 7 of 26 , Mar 7, 2011
                  Indeed. To me, the point, and the elegance, of Definition of Done is that it is a team-owned evolving standard reflecting what they, in their situation, need and want.

                  R

                  On Mar 7, 2011, at 10:45 AM, Alan Dayley <alandd@...> wrote:

                  > I personally don't think it is possible to define universal terms for "done" or "quality" or any term for these concepts. Each company, customer, team and person will have a different idea about them. And each of them can be right in their context. What is important is that such terms be well defined within a specific development organization, including the customer. This is possible over time if full transparency and high levels of communication is happening.
                • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                  I did not mean to imply that we define one actual standard for everyone in the world. I only meant to suggest that the term Definition of Done be *re-named*
                  Message 8 of 26 , Mar 7, 2011
                    I did not mean to imply that we define one actual standard for everyone in the world.

                    I only meant to suggest that the term "Definition of Done" be *re-named* in the Scrum Guide to some new name that will help us communicate that this new term is Scrum specific.  I also would like to see it renamed to something that is not normally confused with other normal bland English words(i.e. something away from "done").

                    For instance, "Increment Quality Standard" or "Increment Completion Standard" is fairly unique. 

                    I'm fully aware that the term DoD, while referring to the same concept, will be specifically defined differently by each Scrum team.
                     
                    -------
                    Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                    Experienced Scrum Coach
                    My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/



                    From: Alan Dayley <alandd@...>
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 8:45:12 AM
                    Subject: Re: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance



                    I personally don't think it is possible to define universal terms for "done" or "quality" or any term for these concepts.  Each company, customer, team and person will have a different idea about them.  And each of them can be right in their context.  What is important is that such terms be well defined within a specific development organization, including the customer.  This is possible over time if full transparency and high levels of communication is happening.

                    As long as the "definition of done" for Company A is understood and acceptable to the people in Company A and the customers of Company A it doesn't matter that it differs from Company B and Company B's customers.  Well, it matters to us who try to teach and talk with a wide industry view.  But industry wide needs are very secondary to the needs of each development ecosystem.

                    Alan

                    On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                     

                    Isn't the "Definition of Done" a "Quality standard to the PO" ?  While the term itself might define a concept, it definitely WILL be different to each person... and in this case.. that person is the Scrum PO.

                    I agree that "Quality Standard" is probably not the best alternative term, but that's why I gave several others as examples.  :-)

                     
                    -------
                    Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                    Experienced Scrum Coach
                    My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/



                    From: Markus Gaertner <shino@...>
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 7:07:48 AM
                    Subject: Re: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance

                    A quality standard as you coined it is also ambiguous. Referring to Weinberg's "Quality is value to some person", quality as a term is confusing enough to mean different things to different people. Consider the difference in internal vs. external quality, or just the difference between quality as perceived by the product owner vs. quality as perceived by the customer vs. quality as perceived by the inidividual team member.

                    Coining the "Definition of Done" a quality standard would rather make things more confusing. Think about the process of ATDD where you denote for each story acceptance criteria on the back of the card. Are these the quality standard? Or is this something different now? Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg.

                    Instead, I like to call it the team contract between the PO and the team who implements it. It's a contract between the voice of the what and the tribe of the how.

                    Referring back, of course, done means done to some person in the beginning, as it is subject to the Relative Rule (see The Gift of Time, Michael Bolton's chapter). Done means Done to some person. Calling it quality instead of done does not improve the situation, from my point it worsens it.

                    Best
                    Markus Gaertner
                    http://www.shino.de/blog
                    http://www.it-agile.de
                    Twitter: @mgaertne


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: chuck-lists2@...
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: 07.03.2011 14:34:55
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance


                    > kbs_kulbhushan,
                    >
                    > That was my whole point.  Stories are not "marked Done."  The way the Scrum
                    > Guide is written (and btw, I'm not a fan of this - I believe it to be
                    > confusing), the "Definition of Done"(DoD) applies to an increment as a whole,
                    > not individual stories.
                    >
                    > IMO, it would be better to call a story "Complete" or "Accepted" rather than
                    > "Done", if for no other reason than keeping the terminology straight and clear.
                    >
                    > I think others have coined the phrase "Done Done".  So, while a story might be
                    > considered "Done" (Accepted/Completed), the increment might be considered "Done
                    > Done" (where "Done Done" is defined as an increment meeting the "Definition of
                    > Done").  I'm not a huge fan of this terminology either.
                    >
                    > I almost would prefer that the Scrum Guide come up with a new term for
                    > "Definition of Done".  Something like "Quality Agreement" or "Software Quality
                    > Standard" or "Quality Standard" or "Completion Standard" or "Increment Quality
                    > Standard", or something else that stands a little more unique so that a general
                    > word like "Done" doesn't come to mean 5 different things in Scrum.
                    >
                    > -------
                    > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                    > Experienced Scrum Coach
                    > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: kbs_kulbhushan
                    > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 5:37:14 AM
                    > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance
                    >
                    > Hello Charles,
                    >
                    >
                    > This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a long time.
                    > Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately required
                    > by PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in which it
                    > also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
                    > criterion". The PO can always prioritize as required.
                    >
                    > This points at "Done" being different for each User Story and it is the
                    > parameter which is tracked.
                    >
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
                    > >
                    > >  * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product Baklog
                    > Item(PBI),
                    > > if you will)or said another way:
                    > >
                    > >  * The Definition of Done is different for each story.I don't agree
                    > with this.
                    > >
                    > > There is a subtle but important difference between the Definition of
                    > Done and
                    > > Acceptance Criteria.  It is summarized as follows:
                    > >
                    > > Definition of Done:
                    > >
                    > >  * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
                    > >
                    > >  * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment is
                    > shippable
                    > >
                    > >  * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
                    > >  * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
                    > >  * Overall Software Quality
                    > >  * Whether the increment is shippable or not    Acceptance Criteria
                    > > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some cases "Test
                    > Cases,"
                    > > etc)
                    > >
                    > >  * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
                    > >
                    > >  * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
                    > >
                    > >  * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
                    > >  * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the requirements
                    > for a
                    > > particular PBI/story have been met
                    > > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the Definition of
                    > Done for
                    > > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the product increment meets that
                    > PBI's
                    > > specific acceptance criteria.
                    > >
                    > > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the converse is
                    > also
                    > > always true:  "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of Done."  For
                    > instance,
                    > > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition of Done,
                    > but not be
                    > > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
                    > >
                    > >  * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
                    > >
                    > >  * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in a test
                    > environment
                    > >
                    > >  * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
                    > >  -------
                    > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                    > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                    > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to:  scrumdevelopment@...
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






                    ------------------------------------

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                  • kbs_kulbhushan
                    Hello, Alan: Yes, you put it rightly. Charles: I re-read the Scrum Guide and the following statement comes closest to what I have seen on my team That is,
                    Message 9 of 26 , Mar 7, 2011
                      Hello,

                      Alan:
                      Yes, you put it rightly.

                      Charles:
                      I re-read the Scrum Guide and the following statement comes closest to what I have seen on my team

                      "That is, when someone inspecting a process believes that something is done; it must be equivalent to their definition of done"

                      It also points to the fact that "Done" is decided on start of a story and thus can vary.

                      Regards,




                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Alan Dayley <alandd@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I personally don't think it is possible to define universal terms for "done"
                      > or "quality" or any term for these concepts. Each company, customer, team
                      > and person will have a different idea about them. And each of them can be
                      > right in their context. What is important is that such terms be well
                      > defined within a specific development organization, including the customer.
                      > This is possible over time if full transparency and high levels of
                      > communication is happening.
                      >
                      > As long as the "definition of done" for Company A is understood and
                      > acceptable to the people in Company A and the customers of Company A it
                      > doesn't matter that it differs from Company B and Company B's customers.
                      > Well, it matters to us who try to teach and talk with a wide industry view.
                      > But industry wide needs are very secondary to the needs of each development
                      > ecosystem.
                      >
                      > Alan
                      >
                      > On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <
                      > chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Isn't the "Definition of Done" a "Quality standard to the PO" ? While the
                      > > term itself might define a concept, it definitely WILL be different to each
                      > > person... and in this case.. that person is the Scrum PO.
                      > >
                      > > I agree that "Quality Standard" is probably not the best alternative term,
                      > > but that's why I gave several others as examples. :-)
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -------
                      > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                      > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                      > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------
                      > > *From:* Markus Gaertner <shino@...>
                      > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      > > *Sent:* Mon, March 7, 2011 7:07:48 AM
                      > > *Subject:* Re: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story
                      > > Acceptance
                      > >
                      > > A quality standard as you coined it is also ambiguous. Referring to
                      > > Weinberg's "Quality is value to some person", quality as a term is confusing
                      > > enough to mean different things to different people. Consider the difference
                      > > in internal vs. external quality, or just the difference between quality as
                      > > perceived by the product owner vs. quality as perceived by the customer vs.
                      > > quality as perceived by the inidividual team member.
                      > >
                      > > Coining the "Definition of Done" a quality standard would rather make
                      > > things more confusing. Think about the process of ATDD where you denote for
                      > > each story acceptance criteria on the back of the card. Are these the
                      > > quality standard? Or is this something different now? Calling a tail a leg
                      > > does not make it a leg.
                      > >
                      > > Instead, I like to call it the team contract between the PO and the team
                      > > who implements it. It's a contract between the voice of the what and the
                      > > tribe of the how.
                      > >
                      > > Referring back, of course, done means done to some person in the beginning,
                      > > as it is subject to the Relative Rule (see The Gift of Time, Michael
                      > > Bolton's chapter). Done means Done to some person. Calling it quality
                      > > instead of done does not improve the situation, from my point it worsens it.
                      > >
                      > > Best
                      > > Markus Gaertner
                      > > http://www.shino.de/blog
                      > > http://www.it-agile.de
                      > > Twitter: @mgaertne
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: chuck-lists2@...
                      > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Date: 07.03.2011 14:34:55
                      > > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > kbs_kulbhushan,
                      > > >
                      > > > That was my whole point. Stories are not "marked Done." The way the
                      > > Scrum
                      > > > Guide is written (and btw, I'm not a fan of this - I believe it to be
                      > > > confusing), the "Definition of Done"(DoD) applies to an increment as a
                      > > whole,
                      > > > not individual stories.
                      > > >
                      > > > IMO, it would be better to call a story "Complete" or "Accepted" rather
                      > > than
                      > > > "Done", if for no other reason than keeping the terminology straight and
                      > > clear.
                      > > >
                      > > > I think others have coined the phrase "Done Done". So, while a story
                      > > might be
                      > > > considered "Done" (Accepted/Completed), the increment might be considered
                      > > "Done
                      > > > Done" (where "Done Done" is defined as an increment meeting the
                      > > "Definition of
                      > > > Done"). I'm not a huge fan of this terminology either.
                      > > >
                      > > > I almost would prefer that the Scrum Guide come up with a new term for
                      > > > "Definition of Done". Something like "Quality Agreement" or "Software
                      > > Quality
                      > > > Standard" or "Quality Standard" or "Completion Standard" or "Increment
                      > > Quality
                      > > > Standard", or something else that stands a little more unique so that a
                      > > general
                      > > > word like "Done" doesn't come to mean 5 different things in Scrum.
                      > > >
                      > > > -------
                      > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                      > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                      > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ________________________________
                      > > > From: kbs_kulbhushan
                      > > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 5:37:14 AM
                      > > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance
                      > > >
                      > > > Hello Charles,
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a long time.
                      > > > Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately required
                      > > > by PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in which it
                      > > > also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
                      > > > criterion". The PO can always prioritize as required.
                      > > >
                      > > > This points at "Done" being different for each User Story and it is the
                      > > > parameter which is tracked.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Regards,
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
                      > > > >
                      > > > > * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product Baklog
                      > > > Item(PBI),
                      > > > > if you will)or said another way:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > * The Definition of Done is different for each story.I don't agree
                      > > > with this.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > There is a subtle but important difference between the Definition of
                      > > > Done and
                      > > > > Acceptance Criteria. It is summarized as follows:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Definition of Done:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
                      > > > >
                      > > > > * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment is
                      > > > shippable
                      > > > >
                      > > > > * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
                      > > > > * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
                      > > > > * Overall Software Quality
                      > > > > * Whether the increment is shippable or not Acceptance Criteria
                      > > > > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some cases "Test
                      > > > Cases,"
                      > > > > etc)
                      > > > >
                      > > > > * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
                      > > > >
                      > > > > * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
                      > > > >
                      > > > > * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
                      > > > > * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the requirements
                      > > > for a
                      > > > > particular PBI/story have been met
                      > > > > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the Definition of
                      > > > Done for
                      > > > > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the product increment meets that
                      > > > PBI's
                      > > > > specific acceptance criteria.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the converse is
                      > > > also
                      > > > > always true: "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of Done." For
                      > > > instance,
                      > > > > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition of Done,
                      > > > but not be
                      > > > > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
                      > > > >
                      > > > > * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in a test
                      > > > environment
                      > > > >
                      > > > > * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
                      > > > > -------
                      > > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                      > > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                      > > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                      > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                      > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                      kbs, ... Can you point me to where it states this? Are you perhaps interpreting this line? Done defines what the Team means when it commits to “doing” a
                      Message 10 of 26 , Mar 7, 2011
                        kbs,

                        > It also points to the fact that "Done" is decided on start of a story and thus can vary.
                        Can you point me to where it states this?

                        Are you perhaps interpreting this line?
                        "Done defines what the Team means when it commits to “doing” a Product Backlog item in a Sprint. "

                        I think if you read the whole section on "Definition of Done" to get context, you'll realize that they're not talking about re-defining the DoD for each story, but rather defining a DoD that applies to the increment/product as a whole(for that Scrum team).

                        Here's the whole section:
                        <snip>
                        Done
                        Scrum requires Teams to build an increment of product functionality
                        every Sprint. This increment must be potentially shippable, for Product
                        Owner may choose to immediately implement the functionality. To do
                        so, the increment must be a complete slice of the product. It must be
                        “done.” Each increment should be additive to all prior increments and
                        thoroughly tested, ensuring that all increments work together.
                        In product development, asserting that functionality is done might lead
                        someone to assume that it is at least cleanly coded, refactored, unit
                        tested, built, and acceptance tested. Someone else might assume only
                        that the code has been built. If everyone doesn’t know what the
                        definition of “done” is, the other two legs of empirical process control
                        don’t work. When someone describes something as  done, everyone
                        must understand what done means.
                        Done defines what the Team means when it commits to “doing” a
                        Product Backlog item in a Sprint. Some products do not contain
                        documentation, so the definition of “done” does not include
                        documentation. A completely “done” increment includes all of the
                        analysis, design, refactoring, programming, documentation and testing
                        for  the increment and all Product Backlog items in the increment.
                        Testing includes unit, system, user, and regression testing, as well as
                        non-functional tests such as
                        performance, stability, security,
                        and integration. Done includes
                        any internationalization. Some
                        Teams aren’t yet able to include
                        everything required for
                        implementation in their definition
                        of done. This must be clear to
                        the Product Owner. This
                        remaining work will have to be
                        done before the product can be
                        implemented and used.
                        </snip>
                         
                        -------
                        Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                        Experienced Scrum Coach
                        My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/



                        From: kbs_kulbhushan <kbs_kulbhushan@...>
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 9:10:53 AM
                        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance




                        Hello,

                        Alan:
                        Yes, you put it rightly.

                        Charles:
                        I re-read the Scrum Guide and the following statement comes closest to what I have seen on my team

                        "That is, when someone inspecting a process believes that something is done; it must be equivalent to their definition of done"

                        It also points to the fact that "Done" is decided on start of a story and thus can vary.

                        Regards,




                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Alan Dayley <alandd@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I personally don't think it is possible to define universal terms for "done"
                        > or "quality" or any term for these concepts.  Each company, customer, team
                        > and person will have a different idea about them.  And each of them can be
                        > right in their context.  What is important is that such terms be well
                        > defined within a specific development organization, including the customer.
                        >  This is possible over time if full transparency and high levels of
                        > communication is happening.
                        >
                        > As long as the "definition of done" for Company A is understood and
                        > acceptable to the people in Company A and the customers of Company A it
                        > doesn't matter that it differs from Company B and Company B's customers.
                        >  Well, it matters to us who try to teach and talk with a wide industry view.
                        >  But industry wide needs are very secondary to the needs of each development
                        > ecosystem.
                        >
                        > Alan
                        >
                        > On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <
                        > chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Isn't the "Definition of Done" a "Quality standard to the PO" ?  While the
                        > > term itself might define a concept, it definitely WILL be different to each
                        > > person... and in this case.. that person is the Scrum PO.
                        > >
                        > > I agree that "Quality Standard" is probably not the best alternative term,
                        > > but that's why I gave several others as examples.  :-)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -------
                        > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                        > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                        > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------
                        > > *From:* Markus Gaertner <shino@...>
                        > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        > > *Sent:* Mon, March 7, 2011 7:07:48 AM
                        > > *Subject:* Re: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story
                        > > Acceptance
                        > >
                        > > A quality standard as you coined it is also ambiguous. Referring to
                        > > Weinberg's "Quality is value to some person", quality as a term is confusing
                        > > enough to mean different things to different people. Consider the difference
                        > > in internal vs. external quality, or just the difference between quality as
                        > > perceived by the product owner vs. quality as perceived by the customer vs.
                        > > quality as perceived by the inidividual team member.
                        > >
                        > > Coining the "Definition of Done" a quality standard would rather make
                        > > things more confusing. Think about the process of ATDD where you denote for
                        > > each story acceptance criteria on the back of the card. Are these the
                        > > quality standard? Or is this something different now? Calling a tail a leg
                        > > does not make it a leg.
                        > >
                        > > Instead, I like to call it the team contract between the PO and the team
                        > > who implements it. It's a contract between the voice of the what and the
                        > > tribe of the how.
                        > >
                        > > Referring back, of course, done means done to some person in the beginning,
                        > > as it is subject to the Relative Rule (see The Gift of Time, Michael
                        > > Bolton's chapter). Done means Done to some person. Calling it quality
                        > > instead of done does not improve the situation, from my point it worsens it.
                        > >
                        > > Best
                        > > Markus Gaertner
                        > > http://www.shino.de/blog
                        > > http://www.it-agile.de
                        > > Twitter: @mgaertne
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: chuck-lists2@...
                        > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Date: 07.03.2011 14:34:55
                        > > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > kbs_kulbhushan,
                        > > >
                        > > > That was my whole point.  Stories are not "marked Done."  The way the
                        > > Scrum
                        > > > Guide is written (and btw, I'm not a fan of this - I believe it to be
                        > > > confusing), the "Definition of Done"(DoD) applies to an increment as a
                        > > whole,
                        > > > not individual stories.
                        > > >
                        > > > IMO, it would be better to call a story "Complete" or "Accepted" rather
                        > > than
                        > > > "Done", if for no other reason than keeping the terminology straight and
                        > > clear.
                        > > >
                        > > > I think others have coined the phrase "Done Done".  So, while a story
                        > > might be
                        > > > considered "Done" (Accepted/Completed), the increment might be considered
                        > > "Done
                        > > > Done" (where "Done Done" is defined as an increment meeting the
                        > > "Definition of
                        > > > Done").  I'm not a huge fan of this terminology either.
                        > > >
                        > > > I almost would prefer that the Scrum Guide come up with a new term for
                        > > > "Definition of Done".  Something like "Quality Agreement" or "Software
                        > > Quality
                        > > > Standard" or "Quality Standard" or "Completion Standard" or "Increment
                        > > Quality
                        > > > Standard", or something else that stands a little more unique so that a
                        > > general
                        > > > word like "Done" doesn't come to mean 5 different things in Scrum.
                        > > >
                        > > > -------
                        > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                        > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                        > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ________________________________
                        > > > From: kbs_kulbhushan
                        > > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 5:37:14 AM
                        > > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance
                        > > >
                        > > > Hello Charles,
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a long time.
                        > > > Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately required
                        > > > by PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in which it
                        > > > also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
                        > > > criterion". The PO can always prioritize as required.
                        > > >
                        > > > This points at "Done" being different for each User Story and it is the
                        > > > parameter which is tracked.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Regards,
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
                        > > > >
                        > > > >  * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product Baklog
                        > > > Item(PBI),
                        > > > > if you will)or said another way:
                        > > > >
                        > > > >  * The Definition of Done is different for each story.I don't agree
                        > > > with this.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > There is a subtle but important difference between the Definition of
                        > > > Done and
                        > > > > Acceptance Criteria.  It is summarized as follows:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Definition of Done:
                        > > > >
                        > > > >  * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
                        > > > >
                        > > > >  * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment is
                        > > > shippable
                        > > > >
                        > > > >  * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
                        > > > >  * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
                        > > > >  * Overall Software Quality
                        > > > >  * Whether the increment is shippable or not    Acceptance Criteria
                        > > > > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some cases "Test
                        > > > Cases,"
                        > > > > etc)
                        > > > >
                        > > > >  * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
                        > > > >
                        > > > >  * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
                        > > > >
                        > > > >  * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
                        > > > >  * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the requirements
                        > > > for a
                        > > > > particular PBI/story have been met
                        > > > > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the Definition of
                        > > > Done for
                        > > > > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the product increment meets that
                        > > > PBI's
                        > > > > specific acceptance criteria.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the converse is
                        > > > also
                        > > > > always true:  "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of Done."  For
                        > > > instance,
                        > > > > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition of Done,
                        > > > but not be
                        > > > > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
                        > > > >
                        > > > >  * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
                        > > > >
                        > > > >  * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in a test
                        > > > environment
                        > > > >
                        > > > >  * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
                        > > > >  -------
                        > > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                        > > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                        > > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ------------------------------------
                        > > >
                        > > > To Post a message, send it to:  scrumdevelopment@...
                        > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                        > > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > To Post a message, send it to:  scrumdevelopment@...
                        > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                        > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 
                        > >
                        >




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                      • ronjeffries@acm.org
                        When I took the course from Ken, he made it quite clear that the DoD was a general statement of doneness applying to all stories, and that it evolved to be
                        Message 11 of 26 , Mar 7, 2011
                          When I took the course from Ken, he made it quite clear that the DoD was a general statement of doneness applying to all stories, and that it evolved to be more stringent as time goes on.

                          One element of DoD is, one would hope, that the story passes its unique acceptance tests. Other criteria have to do with how shippable it is, how clean the code is, and other matters that are important to the team.

                          R



                          On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:10 AM, "kbs_kulbhushan" <kbs_kulbhushan@...> wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hello,
                          >
                          > Alan:
                          > Yes, you put it rightly.
                          >
                          > Charles:
                          > I re-read the Scrum Guide and the following statement comes closest to what I have seen on my team
                          >
                          > "That is, when someone inspecting a process believes that something is done; it must be equivalent to their definition of done"
                          >
                          > It also points to the fact that "Done" is decided on start of a story and thus can vary.
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Alan Dayley <alandd@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >> I personally don't think it is possible to define universal terms for "done"
                          >> or "quality" or any term for these concepts. Each company, customer, team
                          >> and person will have a different idea about them. And each of them can be
                          >> right in their context. What is important is that such terms be well
                          >> defined within a specific development organization, including the customer.
                          >> This is possible over time if full transparency and high levels of
                          >> communication is happening.
                          >>
                          >> As long as the "definition of done" for Company A is understood and
                          >> acceptable to the people in Company A and the customers of Company A it
                          >> doesn't matter that it differs from Company B and Company B's customers.
                          >> Well, it matters to us who try to teach and talk with a wide industry view.
                          >> But industry wide needs are very secondary to the needs of each development
                          >> ecosystem.
                          >>
                          >> Alan
                          >>
                          >> On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <
                          >> chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> Isn't the "Definition of Done" a "Quality standard to the PO" ? While the
                          >>> term itself might define a concept, it definitely WILL be different to each
                          >>> person... and in this case.. that person is the Scrum PO.
                          >>>
                          >>> I agree that "Quality Standard" is probably not the best alternative term,
                          >>> but that's why I gave several others as examples. :-)
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> -------
                          >>> Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                          >>> Experienced Scrum Coach
                          >>> My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> ------------------------------
                          >>> *From:* Markus Gaertner <shino@...>
                          >>> *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          >>> *Sent:* Mon, March 7, 2011 7:07:48 AM
                          >>> *Subject:* Re: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story
                          >>> Acceptance
                          >>>
                          >>> A quality standard as you coined it is also ambiguous. Referring to
                          >>> Weinberg's "Quality is value to some person", quality as a term is confusing
                          >>> enough to mean different things to different people. Consider the difference
                          >>> in internal vs. external quality, or just the difference between quality as
                          >>> perceived by the product owner vs. quality as perceived by the customer vs.
                          >>> quality as perceived by the inidividual team member.
                          >>>
                          >>> Coining the "Definition of Done" a quality standard would rather make
                          >>> things more confusing. Think about the process of ATDD where you denote for
                          >>> each story acceptance criteria on the back of the card. Are these the
                          >>> quality standard? Or is this something different now? Calling a tail a leg
                          >>> does not make it a leg.
                          >>>
                          >>> Instead, I like to call it the team contract between the PO and the team
                          >>> who implements it. It's a contract between the voice of the what and the
                          >>> tribe of the how.
                          >>>
                          >>> Referring back, of course, done means done to some person in the beginning,
                          >>> as it is subject to the Relative Rule (see The Gift of Time, Michael
                          >>> Bolton's chapter). Done means Done to some person. Calling it quality
                          >>> instead of done does not improve the situation, from my point it worsens it.
                          >>>
                          >>> Best
                          >>> Markus Gaertner
                          >>> http://www.shino.de/blog
                          >>> http://www.it-agile.de
                          >>> Twitter: @mgaertne
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> ----- Original Message -----
                          >>> From: chuck-lists2@...
                          >>> To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          >>> Date: 07.03.2011 14:34:55
                          >>> Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>> kbs_kulbhushan,
                          >>>>
                          >>>> That was my whole point. Stories are not "marked Done." The way the
                          >>> Scrum
                          >>>> Guide is written (and btw, I'm not a fan of this - I believe it to be
                          >>>> confusing), the "Definition of Done"(DoD) applies to an increment as a
                          >>> whole,
                          >>>> not individual stories.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> IMO, it would be better to call a story "Complete" or "Accepted" rather
                          >>> than
                          >>>> "Done", if for no other reason than keeping the terminology straight and
                          >>> clear.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> I think others have coined the phrase "Done Done". So, while a story
                          >>> might be
                          >>>> considered "Done" (Accepted/Completed), the increment might be considered
                          >>> "Done
                          >>>> Done" (where "Done Done" is defined as an increment meeting the
                          >>> "Definition of
                          >>>> Done"). I'm not a huge fan of this terminology either.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> I almost would prefer that the Scrum Guide come up with a new term for
                          >>>> "Definition of Done". Something like "Quality Agreement" or "Software
                          >>> Quality
                          >>>> Standard" or "Quality Standard" or "Completion Standard" or "Increment
                          >>> Quality
                          >>>> Standard", or something else that stands a little more unique so that a
                          >>> general
                          >>>> word like "Done" doesn't come to mean 5 different things in Scrum.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> -------
                          >>>> Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                          >>>> Experienced Scrum Coach
                          >>>> My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> ________________________________
                          >>>> From: kbs_kulbhushan
                          >>>> To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          >>>> Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 5:37:14 AM
                          >>>> Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Hello Charles,
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a long time.
                          >>>> Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately required
                          >>>> by PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in which it
                          >>>> also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
                          >>>> criterion". The PO can always prioritize as required.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> This points at "Done" being different for each User Story and it is the
                          >>>> parameter which is tracked.
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Regards,
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B
                          >>>> wrote:
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product Baklog
                          >>>> Item(PBI),
                          >>>>> if you will)or said another way:
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> * The Definition of Done is different for each story.I don't agree
                          >>>> with this.
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> There is a subtle but important difference between the Definition of
                          >>>> Done and
                          >>>>> Acceptance Criteria. It is summarized as follows:
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Definition of Done:
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment is
                          >>>> shippable
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
                          >>>>> * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
                          >>>>> * Overall Software Quality
                          >>>>> * Whether the increment is shippable or not Acceptance Criteria
                          >>>>> (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some cases "Test
                          >>>> Cases,"
                          >>>>> etc)
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
                          >>>>> * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the requirements
                          >>>> for a
                          >>>>> particular PBI/story have been met
                          >>>>> If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the Definition of
                          >>>> Done for
                          >>>>> any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the product increment meets that
                          >>>> PBI's
                          >>>>> specific acceptance criteria.
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the converse is
                          >>>> also
                          >>>>> always true: "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of Done." For
                          >>>> instance,
                          >>>>> one could decide that these things be part of the Definition of Done,
                          >>>> but not be
                          >>>>> part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in a test
                          >>>> environment
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
                          >>>>> -------
                          >>>>> Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                          >>>>> Experienced Scrum Coach
                          >>>>> My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>>
                          >>>> To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                          >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          >>>> scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>
                          >>> To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                          >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          >>> scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • ronjeffries@acm.org
                          Exactly! R
                          Message 12 of 26 , Mar 7, 2011
                            Exactly!

                            R

                            On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:18 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:

                            > I think if you read the whole section on "Definition of Done" to get context, you'll realize that they're not talking about re-defining the DoD for each story, but rather defining a DoD that applies to the increment/product as a whole(for that Scrum team).
                          • kbs_kulbhushan
                            Hello Charles, You are right what I wrote at the end was my interpretation of the statement I quoted -- I should have been clearer. But with this generic
                            Message 13 of 26 , Mar 7, 2011
                              Hello Charles,

                              You are right what I wrote at the end was my interpretation of the
                              statement I quoted -- I should have been clearer.

                              But with this generic definition of "Done" being everything
                              "performance tested/internationalized etc. etc" my original question is
                              unanswered

                              "This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a long time.
                              Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately
                              requiredby PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in
                              which it also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
                              criterion". The PO can always prioritize as required."

                              With one variable only "Done" I know the Feature is "Done" but
                              "Localization" is "Not Done" and I have to only track it. So if the PO
                              finds that out that localization is not required and we can ship the
                              first release, we are "Done".

                              Regards,




                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach
                              CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > kbs,
                              >
                              > > It also points to the fact that "Done" is decided on start of a
                              story and thus
                              > >can vary.
                              > Can you point me to where it states this?
                              >
                              > Are you perhaps interpreting this line?
                              > "Done defines what the Team means when it commits to
                              “doing” a Product Backlog
                              > item in a Sprint. "
                              >
                              > I think if you read the whole section on "Definition of Done" to get
                              context,
                              > you'll realize that they're not talking about re-defining the DoD for
                              each
                              > story, but rather defining a DoD that applies to the increment/product
                              as a
                              > whole(for that Scrum team).
                              >
                              > Here's the whole section:
                              > <snip>
                              > Done
                              > Scrum requires Teams to build an increment of product functionality
                              > every Sprint. This increment must be potentially shippable, for
                              Product
                              > Owner may choose to immediately implement the functionality. To do
                              > so, the increment must be a complete slice of the product. It must be
                              > “done.” Each increment should be additive to all prior
                              increments and
                              > thoroughly tested, ensuring that all increments work together.
                              > In product development, asserting that functionality is done might
                              lead
                              > someone to assume that it is at least cleanly coded, refactored, unit
                              > tested, built, and acceptance tested. Someone else might assume only
                              > that the code has been built. If everyone doesn’t know what the
                              > definition of “done” is, the other two legs of empirical
                              process control
                              > don’t work. When someone describes something as done, everyone
                              > must understand what done means.
                              > Done defines what the Team means when it commits to
                              “doing” a
                              > Product Backlog item in a Sprint. Some products do not contain
                              > documentation, so the definition of “done” does not
                              include
                              > documentation. A completely “done” increment includes
                              all of the
                              > analysis, design, refactoring, programming, documentation and testing
                              > for the increment and all Product Backlog items in the increment.
                              > Testing includes unit, system, user, and regression testing, as well
                              as
                              > non-functional tests such as
                              > performance, stability, security,
                              > and integration. Done includes
                              > any internationalization. Some
                              > Teams aren’t yet able to include
                              > everything required for
                              > implementation in their definition
                              > of done. This must be clear to
                              > the Product Owner. This
                              > remaining work will have to be
                              > done before the product can be
                              > implemented and used.
                              > </snip>
                              >
                              > -------
                              > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                              > Experienced Scrum Coach
                              > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: kbs_kulbhushan kbs_kulbhushan@...
                              > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 9:10:53 AM
                              > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story
                              Acceptance
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hello,
                              >
                              > Alan:
                              > Yes, you put it rightly.
                              >
                              > Charles:
                              > I re-read the Scrum Guide and the following statement comes closest to
                              what I
                              > have seen on my team
                              >
                              > "That is, when someone inspecting a process believes that something is
                              done; it
                              > must be equivalent to their definition of done"
                              >
                              > It also points to the fact that "Done" is decided on start of a story
                              and thus
                              > can vary.
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Alan Dayley alandd@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I personally don't think it is possible to define universal terms
                              for "done"
                              > > or "quality" or any term for these concepts. Each company,
                              customer, team
                              > > and person will have a different idea about them. And each of them
                              can be
                              > > right in their context. What is important is that such terms be
                              well
                              > > defined within a specific development organization, including the
                              customer.
                              > > This is possible over time if full transparency and high levels of
                              > > communication is happening.
                              > >
                              > > As long as the "definition of done" for Company A is understood and
                              > > acceptable to the people in Company A and the customers of Company A
                              it
                              > > doesn't matter that it differs from Company B and Company B's
                              customers.
                              > > Well, it matters to us who try to teach and talk with a wide
                              industry view.
                              > > But industry wide needs are very secondary to the needs of each
                              development
                              > > ecosystem.
                              > >
                              > > Alan
                              > >
                              > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM
                              PSM I <
                              > > chuck-lists2@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Isn't the "Definition of Done" a "Quality standard to the PO" ?
                              While the
                              > > > term itself might define a concept, it definitely WILL be
                              different to each
                              > > > person... and in this case.. that person is the Scrum PO.
                              > > >
                              > > > I agree that "Quality Standard" is probably not the best
                              alternative term,
                              > > > but that's why I gave several others as examples. :-)
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > -------
                              > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                              > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                              > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ------------------------------
                              > > > *From:* Markus Gaertner shino@
                              > > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > *Sent:* Mon, March 7, 2011 7:07:48 AM
                              > > > *Subject:* Re: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs.
                              Story
                              > > > Acceptance
                              > > >
                              > > > A quality standard as you coined it is also ambiguous. Referring
                              to
                              > > > Weinberg's "Quality is value to some person", quality as a term is
                              confusing
                              > > > enough to mean different things to different people. Consider the
                              difference
                              > > > in internal vs. external quality, or just the difference between
                              quality as
                              > > > perceived by the product owner vs. quality as perceived by the
                              customer vs.
                              > > > quality as perceived by the inidividual team member.
                              > > >
                              > > > Coining the "Definition of Done" a quality standard would rather
                              make
                              > > > things more confusing. Think about the process of ATDD where you
                              denote for
                              > > > each story acceptance criteria on the back of the card. Are these
                              the
                              > > > quality standard? Or is this something different now? Calling a
                              tail a leg
                              > > > does not make it a leg.
                              > > >
                              > > > Instead, I like to call it the team contract between the PO and
                              the team
                              > > > who implements it. It's a contract between the voice of the what
                              and the
                              > > > tribe of the how.
                              > > >
                              > > > Referring back, of course, done means done to some person in the
                              beginning,
                              > > > as it is subject to the Relative Rule (see The Gift of Time,
                              Michael
                              > > > Bolton's chapter). Done means Done to some person. Calling it
                              quality
                              > > > instead of done does not improve the situation, from my point it
                              worsens it.
                              > > >
                              > > > Best
                              > > > Markus Gaertner
                              > > > http://www.shino.de/blog
                              > > > http://www.it-agile.de
                              > > > Twitter: @mgaertne
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > From: chuck-lists2@
                              > > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Date: 07.03.2011 14:34:55
                              > > > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story
                              Acceptance
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > > kbs_kulbhushan,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > That was my whole point. Stories are not "marked Done." The
                              way the
                              > > > Scrum
                              > > > > Guide is written (and btw, I'm not a fan of this - I believe it
                              to be
                              > > > > confusing), the "Definition of Done"(DoD) applies to an
                              increment as a
                              > > > whole,
                              > > > > not individual stories.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > IMO, it would be better to call a story "Complete" or "Accepted"
                              rather
                              > > > than
                              > > > > "Done", if for no other reason than keeping the terminology
                              straight and
                              > > > clear.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I think others have coined the phrase "Done Done". So, while a
                              story
                              > > > might be
                              > > > > considered "Done" (Accepted/Completed), the increment might be
                              considered
                              > > > "Done
                              > > > > Done" (where "Done Done" is defined as an increment meeting the
                              > > > "Definition of
                              > > > > Done"). I'm not a huge fan of this terminology either.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I almost would prefer that the Scrum Guide come up with a new
                              term for
                              > > > > "Definition of Done". Something like "Quality Agreement" or
                              "Software
                              > > > Quality
                              > > > > Standard" or "Quality Standard" or "Completion Standard" or
                              "Increment
                              > > > Quality
                              > > > > Standard", or something else that stands a little more unique so
                              that a
                              > > > general
                              > > > > word like "Done" doesn't come to mean 5 different things in
                              Scrum.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > -------
                              > > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                              > > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                              > > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > ________________________________
                              > > > > From: kbs_kulbhushan
                              > > > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 5:37:14 AM
                              > > > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story
                              Acceptance
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hello Charles,
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a
                              long time.
                              > > > > Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately
                              required
                              > > > > by PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in
                              which it
                              > > > > also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
                              > > > > criterion". The PO can always prioritize as required.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > This points at "Done" being different for each User Story and it
                              is the
                              > > > > parameter which is tracked.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Regards,
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B
                              > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product
                              Baklog
                              > > > > Item(PBI),
                              > > > > > if you will)or said another way:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > * The Definition of Done is different for each story.I don't
                              agree
                              > > > > with this.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > There is a subtle but important difference between the
                              Definition of
                              > > > > Done and
                              > > > > > Acceptance Criteria. It is summarized as follows:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Definition of Done:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment
                              is
                              > > > > shippable
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
                              > > > > > * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
                              > > > > > * Overall Software Quality
                              > > > > > * Whether the increment is shippable or not Acceptance
                              Criteria
                              > > > > > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some
                              cases "Test
                              > > > > Cases,"
                              > > > > > etc)
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
                              > > > > > * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the
                              requirements
                              > > > > for a
                              > > > > > particular PBI/story have been met
                              > > > > > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the
                              Definition of
                              > > > > Done for
                              > > > > > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the product increment
                              meets that
                              > > > > PBI's
                              > > > > > specific acceptance criteria.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the
                              converse is
                              > > > > also
                              > > > > > always true: "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of
                              Done." For
                              > > > > instance,
                              > > > > > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition
                              of Done,
                              > > > > but not be
                              > > > > > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in
                              a test
                              > > > > environment
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
                              > > > > > -------
                              > > > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                              > > > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                              > > > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > ------------------------------------
                              > > > >
                              > > > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@
                              > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              > > > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@! Groups Links
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ------------------------------------
                              > > >
                              > > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@
                              > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              > > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@! Groups Links
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                            • Dan Rawsthorne
                              I agree with you, kbs. Every story has its own Doneness, the epic (feature) has its Doneness, the Release has its Doneness, etc. It gets interesting... Dan
                              Message 14 of 26 , Mar 7, 2011
                                I agree with you, kbs. Every story has its own Doneness, the epic (feature) has its Doneness, the Release has its Doneness, etc. It gets interesting...  Dan  ;-)

                                On 3/7/2011 9:34 PM, kbs_kulbhushan wrote:
                                 

                                Hello Charles,

                                You are right what I wrote at the end was my interpretation of the
                                statement I quoted -- I should have been clearer.

                                But with this generic definition of "Done" being everything
                                "performance tested/internationalized etc. etc" my original question is
                                unanswered

                                "This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a long time.
                                Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately
                                requiredby PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in
                                which it also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
                                criterion". The PO can always prioritize as required."

                                With one variable only "Done" I know the Feature is "Done" but
                                "Localization" is "Not Done" and I have to only track it. So if the PO
                                finds that out that localization is not required and we can ship the
                                first release, we are "Done".

                                Regards,

                                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach
                                CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > kbs,
                                >
                                > > It also points to the fact that "Done" is decided on start of a
                                story and thus
                                > >can vary.
                                > Can you point me to where it states this?
                                >
                                > Are you perhaps interpreting this line?
                                > "Done defines what the Team means when it commits to
                                “doing” a Product Backlog
                                > item in a Sprint. "
                                >
                                > I think if you read the whole section on "Definition of Done" to get
                                context,
                                > you'll realize that they're not talking about re-defining the DoD for
                                each
                                > story, but rather defining a DoD that applies to the increment/product
                                as a
                                > whole(for that Scrum team).
                                >
                                > Here's the whole section:
                                > <snip>
                                > Done
                                > Scrum requires Teams to build an increment of product functionality
                                > every Sprint. This increment must be potentially shippable, for
                                Product
                                > Owner may choose to immediately implement the functionality. To do
                                > so, the increment must be a complete slice of the product. It must be
                                > “done.” Each increment should be additive to all prior
                                increments and
                                > thoroughly tested, ensuring that all increments work together.
                                > In product development, asserting that functionality is done might
                                lead
                                > someone to assume that it is at least cleanly coded, refactored, unit
                                > tested, built, and acceptance tested. Someone else might assume only
                                > that the code has been built. If everyone doesn’t know what the
                                > definition of “done” is, the other two legs of empirical
                                process control
                                > don’t work. When someone describes something as done, everyone
                                > must understand what done means.
                                > Done defines what the Team means when it commits to
                                “doing” a
                                > Product Backlog item in a Sprint. Some products do not contain
                                > documentation, so the definition of “done” does not
                                include
                                > documentation. A completely “done” increment includes
                                all of the
                                > analysis, design, refactoring, programming, documentation and testing
                                > for the increment and all Product Backlog items in the increment.
                                > Testing includes unit, system, user, and regression testing, as well
                                as
                                > non-functional tests such as
                                > performance, stability, security,
                                > and integration. Done includes
                                > any internationalization. Some
                                > Teams aren’t yet able to include
                                > everything required for
                                > implementation in their definition
                                > of done. This must be clear to
                                > the Product Owner. This
                                > remaining work will have to be
                                > done before the product can be
                                > implemented and used.
                                > </snip>
                                >
                                > -------
                                > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                > Experienced Scrum Coach
                                > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: kbs_kulbhushan kbs_kulbhushan@...
                                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 9:10:53 AM
                                > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story
                                Acceptance
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Hello,
                                >
                                > Alan:
                                > Yes, you put it rightly.
                                >
                                > Charles:
                                > I re-read the Scrum Guide and the following statement comes closest to
                                what I
                                > have seen on my team
                                >
                                > "That is, when someone inspecting a process believes that something is
                                done; it
                                > must be equivalent to their definition of done"
                                >
                                > It also points to the fact that "Done" is decided on start of a story
                                and thus
                                > can vary.
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Alan Dayley alandd@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I personally don't think it is possible to define universal terms
                                for "done"
                                > > or "quality" or any term for these concepts. Each company,
                                customer, team
                                > > and person will have a different idea about them. And each of them
                                can be
                                > > right in their context. What is important is that such terms be
                                well
                                > > defined within a specific development organization, including the
                                customer.
                                > > This is possible over time if full transparency and high levels of
                                > > communication is happening.
                                > >
                                > > As long as the "definition of done" for Company A is understood and
                                > > acceptable to the people in Company A and the customers of Company A
                                it
                                > > doesn't matter that it differs from Company B and Company B's
                                customers.
                                > > Well, it matters to us who try to teach and talk with a wide
                                industry view.
                                > > But industry wide needs are very secondary to the needs of each
                                development
                                > > ecosystem.
                                > >
                                > > Alan
                                > >
                                > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM
                                PSM I <
                                > > chuck-lists2@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Isn't the "Definition of Done" a "Quality standard to the PO" ?
                                While the
                                > > > term itself might define a concept, it definitely WILL be
                                different to each
                                > > > person... and in this case.. that person is the Scrum PO.
                                > > >
                                > > > I agree that "Quality Standard" is probably not the best
                                alternative term,
                                > > > but that's why I gave several others as examples. :-)
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > -------
                                > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                                > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ------------------------------
                                > > > *From:* Markus Gaertner shino@
                                > > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > *Sent:* Mon, March 7, 2011 7:07:48 AM
                                > > > *Subject:* Re: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs.
                                Story
                                > > > Acceptance
                                > > >
                                > > > A quality standard as you coined it is also ambiguous. Referring
                                to
                                > > > Weinberg's "Quality is value to some person", quality as a term is
                                confusing
                                > > > enough to mean different things to different people. Consider the
                                difference
                                > > > in internal vs. external quality, or just the difference between
                                quality as
                                > > > perceived by the product owner vs. quality as perceived by the
                                customer vs.
                                > > > quality as perceived by the inidividual team member.
                                > > >
                                > > > Coining the "Definition of Done" a quality standard would rather
                                make
                                > > > things more confusing. Think about the process of ATDD where you
                                denote for
                                > > > each story acceptance criteria on the back of the card. Are these
                                the
                                > > > quality standard? Or is this something different now? Calling a
                                tail a leg
                                > > > does not make it a leg.
                                > > >
                                > > > Instead, I like to call it the team contract between the PO and
                                the team
                                > > > who implements it. It's a contract between the voice of the what
                                and the
                                > > > tribe of the how.
                                > > >
                                > > > Referring back, of course, done means done to some person in the
                                beginning,
                                > > > as it is subject to the Relative Rule (see The Gift of Time,
                                Michael
                                > > > Bolton's chapter). Done means Done to some person. Calling it
                                quality
                                > > > instead of done does not improve the situation, from my point it
                                worsens it.
                                > > >
                                > > > Best
                                > > > Markus Gaertner
                                > > > http://www.shino.de/blog
                                > > > http://www.it-agile.de
                                > > > Twitter: @mgaertne
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > > From: chuck-lists2@
                                > > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > Date: 07.03.2011 14:34:55
                                > > > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story
                                Acceptance
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > > kbs_kulbhushan,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > That was my whole point. Stories are not "marked Done." The
                                way the
                                > > > Scrum
                                > > > > Guide is written (and btw, I'm not a fan of this - I believe it
                                to be
                                > > > > confusing), the "Definition of Done"(DoD) applies to an
                                increment as a
                                > > > whole,
                                > > > > not individual stories.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > IMO, it would be better to call a story "Complete" or "Accepted"
                                rather
                                > > > than
                                > > > > "Done", if for no other reason than keeping the terminology
                                straight and
                                > > > clear.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I think others have coined the phrase "Done Done". So, while a
                                story
                                > > > might be
                                > > > > considered "Done" (Accepted/Completed), the increment might be
                                considered
                                > > > "Done
                                > > > > Done" (where "Done Done" is defined as an increment meeting the
                                > > > "Definition of
                                > > > > Done"). I'm not a huge fan of this terminology either.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I almost would prefer that the Scrum Guide come up with a new
                                term for
                                > > > > "Definition of Done". Something like "Quality Agreement" or
                                "Software
                                > > > Quality
                                > > > > Standard" or "Quality Standard" or "Completion Standard" or
                                "Increment
                                > > > Quality
                                > > > > Standard", or something else that stands a little more unique so
                                that a
                                > > > general
                                > > > > word like "Done" doesn't come to mean 5 different things in
                                Scrum.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > -------
                                > > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                > > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                                > > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > ________________________________
                                > > > > From: kbs_kulbhushan
                                > > > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 5:37:14 AM
                                > > > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story
                                Acceptance
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Hello Charles,
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a
                                long time.
                                > > > > Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately
                                required
                                > > > > by PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in
                                which it
                                > > > > also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
                                > > > > criterion". The PO can always prioritize as required.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > This points at "Done" being different for each User Story and it
                                is the
                                > > > > parameter which is tracked.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Regards,
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B
                                > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product
                                Baklog
                                > > > > Item(PBI),
                                > > > > > if you will)or said another way:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > * The Definition of Done is different for each story.I don't
                                agree
                                > > > > with this.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > There is a subtle but important difference between the
                                Definition of
                                > > > > Done and
                                > > > > > Acceptance Criteria. It is summarized as follows:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Definition of Done:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment
                                is
                                > > > > shippable
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
                                > > > > > * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
                                > > > > > * Overall Software Quality
                                > > > > > * Whether the increment is shippable or not Acceptance
                                Criteria
                                > > > > > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some
                                cases "Test
                                > > > > Cases,"
                                > > > > > etc)
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
                                > > > > > * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the
                                requirements
                                > > > > for a
                                > > > > > particular PBI/story have been met
                                > > > > > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the
                                Definition of
                                > > > > Done for
                                > > > > > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the product increment
                                meets that
                                > > > > PBI's
                                > > > > > specific acceptance criteria.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the
                                converse is
                                > > > > also
                                > > > > > always true: "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of
                                Done." For
                                > > > > instance,
                                > > > > > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition
                                of Done,
                                > > > > but not be
                                > > > > > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in
                                a test
                                > > > > environment
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
                                > > > > > -------
                                > > > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                > > > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                                > > > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > ------------------------------------
                                > > > >
                                > > > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@
                                > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                > > > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@! Groups Links
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ------------------------------------
                                > > >
                                > > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@
                                > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                > > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@! Groups Links
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >

                              • Tobias Fors
                                ... I agree. What I like to do is to run an exercise where the team I m working with gets to collaborate on defining what done means to them. What we discover
                                Message 15 of 26 , Mar 8, 2011
                                  7 mar 2011 kl. 16.52 skrev ronjeffries@...:
                                   

                                  Indeed. To me, the point, and the elegance, of Definition of Done is that it is a team-owned evolving standard reflecting what they, in their situation, need and want.

                                  I agree. What I like to do is to run an exercise where the team I'm working with gets to collaborate on defining what done means to them. What we discover as we do this is sometimes disappointing, but always important. I want the team to know what they are not in agreement about, so that they can make a plan for how to improve.

                                  In short, what I do is prepare a set of paper slips, each containing one part of what may or may not be in their definition of done. Examples: "Automated acceptance tests written and pass", "Code is DRY". The team then gets to sort these, in silence at first, into two piles: "Every sprint" and "Before release". When they absolutely cannot continue without talking, they start discussing.

                                  A quick 1-2 hours session like this gets us started down the road of establishing what done means. With us on the journey we now have some more understanding of where we agree and where we disagree. This is good.

                                  We also typically catch some differences in how people understand terminology. The most common example, I think, is probably what refactoring means: "just changing stuff" or "small controlled changes that preserve behavior while improving design".

                                  There's a more complete description of this kind of exercise here: http://www.tobiasfors.se/?p=575

                                  /Tobias Fors
                                • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                                  kbs, You are illustrating why the DoD is different for every team. I don t see any problem splitting the stories as you suggest, so long as your team s DoD
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Mar 8, 2011
                                    kbs,

                                    You are illustrating why the DoD is different for every team.

                                    I don't see any problem splitting the stories as you suggest, so long as your team's DoD does NOT include "performance tested" and "i18n."  That's the point, you have to be able to communicate to the PO what "done" means for an increment.

                                    In your team, the PO *cannot* count on performance testing/i18n being "done" with each Sprint's increment(and by extension, they cannot count on it being done with each story in the increment).

                                    This concept, "Definition of Done for an increment",  allows setting expectations with the PO for what each increment represents, and more specifically, how "potentially shippable" the product is at that point.

                                    This concept, is the real meaning of the DoD in the Scrum Guide, and this is why I do not believe that each individual story can have its own DoD.  If each story has its own "Story DoD", then the entire reason for the "DoD," as described in the Scrum Guide, is totally blown out of the water and defeated. 

                                    I know it's somewhat confusing in the guide, and this is why I suggested they come up with another term.  This problem (the DoD term in the Scrum Guide), get's about 3 times worse when you read about "Undone work" in the final paragraph of the Scrum guide.  It's not the end of the world, but those sections need some serious improvement.

                                    If it were me, I would rename the terms to something like:
                                    "Increment Standard"  (= "DoD" as described in the Scrum Guide)  (or maybe Scurm Increment Standard?)
                                    "Release Standard" (= "Undone work", as it's so poorly described in the Scrum Guide) (or maybe Scrum Release Standard?)

                                    I don't care what the terms are renamed to, so much as I care that they get renamed to something that is easier to understand when explaining the concepts, and harder to confuse when contrasting the new terms with other related terms and typical English words.

                                     -------
                                    Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                    Experienced Scrum Coach
                                    My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/



                                    From: kbs_kulbhushan <kbs_kulbhushan@...>
                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 10:34:52 PM
                                    Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance

                                    Hello Charles,

                                    You are right what I wrote at the end  was my interpretation of the
                                    statement I quoted -- I should have been clearer.

                                      But with this generic definition of "Done" being everything
                                    "performance tested/internationalized etc. etc" my original question is
                                    unanswered

                                    "This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a long time.
                                      Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately
                                    requiredby PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in
                                    which it also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
                                    criterion". The PO can always prioritize as required."

                                    With one variable only "Done" I know the Feature is "Done" but
                                    "Localization" is "Not Done" and I have to only track it. So if the PO
                                    finds that out that localization is not required and we can ship the
                                    first release, we are "Done".

                                    Regards,




                                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach
                                    CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > kbs,
                                    >
                                    > > It also points to the fact that "Done" is decided on start of a
                                    story and thus
                                    > >can vary.
                                    > Can you point me to where it states this?
                                    >
                                    > Are you perhaps interpreting this line?
                                    > "Done defines what the Team means when it commits to
                                    “doing” a Product Backlog
                                    > item in a Sprint. "
                                    >
                                    > I think if you read the whole section on "Definition of Done" to get
                                    context,
                                    > you'll realize that they're not talking about re-defining the DoD for
                                    each
                                    > story, but rather defining a DoD that applies to the increment/product
                                    as a
                                    > whole(for that Scrum team).
                                    >
                                    > Here's the whole section:
                                    > <snip>
                                    >
                                    Done
                                    > Scrum requires Teams to build an increment of product functionality
                                    > every Sprint. This increment must be potentially shippable, for
                                    Product
                                    > Owner may choose to immediately implement the functionality. To do
                                    > so, the increment must be a complete slice of the product. It must be
                                    > “done.” Each increment should be additive to all prior
                                    increments and
                                    > thoroughly tested, ensuring that all increments work together.
                                    > In product development, asserting that functionality is done might
                                    lead
                                    > someone to assume that it is at least cleanly coded, refactored, unit
                                    > tested, built, and acceptance tested. Someone else might assume only
                                    > that the code has been built. If everyone doesn’t know what the
                                    > definition of “done” is, the other two legs of empirical
                                    process control
                                    > don’t work. When someone describes something as  done, everyone
                                    > must
                                    understand what done means.
                                    > Done defines what the Team means when it commits to
                                    “doing” a
                                    > Product Backlog item in a Sprint. Some products do not contain
                                    > documentation, so the definition of “done” does not
                                    include
                                    > documentation. A completely “done” increment includes
                                    all of the
                                    > analysis, design, refactoring, programming, documentation and testing
                                    > for  the increment and all Product Backlog items in the increment.
                                    > Testing includes unit, system, user, and regression testing, as well
                                    as
                                    > non-functional tests such as
                                    > performance, stability, security,
                                    > and integration. Done includes
                                    > any internationalization. Some
                                    > Teams aren’t yet able to include
                                    > everything required for
                                    > implementation in their definition
                                    > of done. This must be clear to
                                    > the Product Owner. This
                                    > remaining work will have to be
                                    >
                                    done before the product can be
                                    > implemented and used.
                                    > </snip>
                                    >
                                    >  -------
                                    > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                    > Experienced Scrum Coach
                                    > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: kbs_kulbhushan kbs_kulbhushan@...
                                    > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 9:10:53 AM
                                    > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story
                                    Acceptance
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hello,
                                    >
                                    > Alan:
                                    > Yes, you put it rightly.
                                    >
                                    > Charles:
                                    > I re-read the Scrum Guide and the following statement comes closest to
                                    what I
                                    > have seen on my team
                                    >
                                    >
                                    "That is, when someone inspecting a process believes that something is
                                    done; it
                                    > must be equivalent to their definition of done"
                                    >
                                    > It also points to the fact that "Done" is decided on start of a story
                                    and thus
                                    > can vary.
                                    >
                                    > Regards,
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Alan Dayley alandd@ wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I personally don't think it is possible to define universal terms
                                    for "done"
                                    > > or "quality" or any term for these concepts.  Each company,
                                    customer, team
                                    > > and person will have a different idea about them.  And each of them
                                    can be
                                    > > right in their context.  What is important is that such terms be
                                    well
                                    > > defined within a specific development organization, including
                                    the
                                    customer.
                                    > >  This is possible over time if full transparency and high levels of
                                    > > communication is happening.
                                    > >
                                    > > As long as the "definition of done" for Company A is understood and
                                    > > acceptable to the people in Company A and the customers of Company A
                                    it
                                    > > doesn't matter that it differs from Company B and Company B's
                                    customers.
                                    > >  Well, it matters to us who try to teach and talk with a wide
                                    industry view.
                                    > >  But industry wide needs are very secondary to the needs of each
                                    development
                                    > > ecosystem.
                                    > >
                                    > > Alan
                                    > >
                                    > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM
                                    PSM I <
                                    > > chuck-lists2@ wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Isn't the "Definition of Done" a "Quality standard to the PO" ?
                                    While the
                                    > > > term itself might define a concept, it definitely WILL be
                                    different to each
                                    > > > person... and in this case.. that person is the Scrum PO.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I agree that "Quality Standard" is probably not the best
                                    alternative term,
                                    > > > but that's why I gave several others as examples.  :-)
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > -------
                                    > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                    > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                                    > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ------------------------------
                                    > > > *From:* Markus Gaertner shino@
                                    > > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > *Sent:* Mon, March 7, 2011
                                    7:07:48 AM
                                    > > > *Subject:* Re: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs.
                                    Story
                                    > > > Acceptance
                                    > > >
                                    > > > A quality standard as you coined it is also ambiguous. Referring
                                    to
                                    > > > Weinberg's "Quality is value to some person", quality as a term is
                                    confusing
                                    > > > enough to mean different things to different people. Consider the
                                    difference
                                    > > > in internal vs. external quality, or just the difference between
                                    quality as
                                    > > > perceived by the product owner vs. quality as perceived by the
                                    customer vs.
                                    > > > quality as perceived by the inidividual team member.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Coining the "Definition of Done" a quality standard would rather
                                    make
                                    > > > things more confusing. Think about the process of ATDD where you
                                    denote for
                                    > > > each story acceptance criteria on the back
                                    of the card. Are these
                                    the
                                    > > > quality standard? Or is this something different now? Calling a
                                    tail a leg
                                    > > > does not make it a leg.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Instead, I like to call it the team contract between the PO and
                                    the team
                                    > > > who implements it. It's a contract between the voice of the what
                                    and the
                                    > > > tribe of the how.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Referring back, of course, done means done to some person in the
                                    beginning,
                                    > > > as it is subject to the Relative Rule (see The Gift of Time,
                                    Michael
                                    > > > Bolton's chapter). Done means Done to some person. Calling it
                                    quality
                                    > > > instead of done does not improve the situation, from my point it
                                    worsens it.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Best
                                    > > > Markus Gaertner
                                    > > >
                                    href="http://www.shino.de/blog">http://www.shino.de/blog
                                    > > > http://www.it-agile.de
                                    > > > Twitter: @mgaertne
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > > From: chuck-lists2@
                                    > > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > Date: 07.03.2011 14:34:55
                                    > > > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story
                                    Acceptance
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > kbs_kulbhushan,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > That was my whole point.  Stories are not "marked Done."  The
                                    way the
                                    > > > Scrum
                                    > > > > Guide is written (and btw, I'm not a fan of this - I believe it
                                    to be
                                    > > > > confusing), the "Definition of Done"(DoD) applies to an
                                    increment as a
                                    > > > whole,
                                    > > > > not individual stories.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > IMO, it would be better to call a story "Complete" or "Accepted"
                                    rather
                                    > > > than
                                    > > > > "Done", if for no other reason than keeping the terminology
                                    straight and
                                    > > > clear.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I think others have coined the phrase "Done Done".  So, while a
                                    story
                                    > > > might be
                                    > > > > considered "Done" (Accepted/Completed), the increment might be
                                    considered
                                    > > > "Done
                                    > > > > Done" (where "Done Done" is defined as an increment meeting the
                                    > > > "Definition of
                                    > > > > Done").  I'm not a huge fan of this terminology either.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I almost
                                    would prefer that the Scrum Guide come up with a new
                                    term for
                                    > > > > "Definition of Done".  Something like "Quality Agreement" or
                                    "Software
                                    > > > Quality
                                    > > > > Standard" or "Quality Standard" or "Completion Standard" or
                                    "Increment
                                    > > > Quality
                                    > > > > Standard", or something else that stands a little more unique so
                                    that a
                                    > > > general
                                    > > > > word like "Done" doesn't come to mean 5 different things in
                                    Scrum.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > -------
                                    > > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                    > > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                                    > > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    ________________________________
                                    > > > > From: kbs_kulbhushan
                                    > > > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 5:37:14 AM
                                    > > > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story
                                    Acceptance
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Hello Charles,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a
                                    long time.
                                    > > > > Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately
                                    required
                                    > > > > by PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in
                                    which it
                                    > > > > also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
                                    > > > > criterion". The PO can always prioritize as
                                    required.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > This points at "Done" being different for each User Story and it
                                    is the
                                    > > > > parameter which is tracked.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Regards,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B
                                    > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >  * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product
                                    Baklog
                                    > > > > Item(PBI),
                                    > > > > > if you will)or said another way:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >  * The Definition of Done is different for each
                                    story.I don't
                                    agree
                                    > > > > with this.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > There is a subtle but important difference between the
                                    Definition of
                                    > > > > Done and
                                    > > > > > Acceptance Criteria.  It is summarized as follows:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Definition of Done:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >  * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >  * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment
                                    is
                                    > > > > shippable
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >  * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
                                    > > > > >  * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
                                    > > > > >  * Overall Software Quality
                                    > > > > >  * Whether the
                                    increment is shippable or not    Acceptance
                                    Criteria
                                    > > > > > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some
                                    cases "Test
                                    > > > > Cases,"
                                    > > > > > etc)
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >  * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >  * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >  * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
                                    > > > > >  * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the
                                    requirements
                                    > > > > for a
                                    > > > > > particular PBI/story have been met
                                    > > > > > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the
                                    Definition of
                                    > > > > Done for
                                    > > > > > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the
                                    product increment
                                    meets that
                                    > > > > PBI's
                                    > > > > > specific acceptance criteria.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the
                                    converse is
                                    > > > > also
                                    > > > > > always true:  "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of
                                    Done."  For
                                    > > > > instance,
                                    > > > > > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition
                                    of Done,
                                    > > > > but not be
                                    > > > > > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >  * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >  * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in
                                    a test
                                    > > > > environment
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >  * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
                                    > > > > >  -------
                                    > > > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                    > > > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                                    > > > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
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                                  • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                                    Release Standard (= Undone work , as it s so poorly described in the Scrum Guide) (or maybe Scrum Release Standard?) Actually, Undone work might be
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Mar 8, 2011

                                      "Release Standard" (= "Undone work", as it's so poorly described in the Scrum Guide) (or maybe Scrum Release Standard?)

                                      Actually, "Undone work" might be renamed to "Release work", and the concept of what "Release work" is would be related to meeting a "Release Standard"

                                      The  further concept would be this... teams should try to continually improve until the Release Standard and the Increment Standard are the same.

                                      Maybe one of these days I will re-write those sections in the Scrum Guide and offer it up as a suggested change to the Scrum Guide.  (not that it would get any attention or traction, but maybe it would spur the right people to re-think the writing of those sections -- they are very confusing IMO -- Have I already mentioned that?)

                                      -------
                                      Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                      Experienced Scrum Coach
                                      My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/



                                      From: Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...>
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tue, March 8, 2011 10:22:48 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance



                                      kbs,

                                      You are illustrating why the DoD is different for every team.

                                      I don't see any problem splitting the stories as you suggest, so long as your team's DoD does NOT include "performance tested" and "i18n."  That's the point, you have to be able to communicate to the PO what "done" means for an increment.

                                      In your team, the PO *cannot* count on performance testing/i18n being "done" with each Sprint's increment(and by extension, they cannot count on it being done with each story in the increment).

                                      This concept, "Definition of Done for an increment",  allows setting expectations with the PO for what each increment represents, and more specifically, how "potentially shippable" the product is at that point.

                                      This concept, is the real meaning of the DoD in the Scrum Guide, and this is why I do not believe that each individual story can have its own DoD.  If each story has its own "Story DoD", then the entire reason for the "DoD," as described in the Scrum Guide, is totally blown out of the water and defeated. 

                                      I know it's somewhat confusing in the guide, and this is why I suggested they come up with another term.  This problem (the DoD term in the Scrum Guide), get's about 3 times worse when you read about "Undone work" in the final paragraph of the Scrum guide.  It's not the end of the world, but those sections need some serious improvement.

                                      If it were me, I would rename the terms to something like:
                                      "Increment Standard"  (= "DoD" as described in the Scrum Guide)  (or maybe Scurm Increment Standard?)
                                      "Release Standard" (= "Undone work", as it's so poorly described in the Scrum Guide) (or maybe Scrum Release Standard?)

                                      I don't care what the terms are renamed to, so much as I care that they get renamed to something that is easier to understand when explaining the concepts, and harder to confuse when contrasting the new terms with other related terms and typical English words.

                                       -------
                                      Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                      Experienced Scrum Coach
                                      My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/



                                      From: kbs_kulbhushan <kbs_kulbhushan@...>
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 10:34:52 PM
                                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance

                                      Hello Charles,

                                      You are right what I wrote at the end  was my interpretation of the
                                      statement I quoted -- I should have been clearer.

                                        But with this generic definition of "Done" being everything
                                      "performance tested/internationalized etc. etc" my original question is
                                      unanswered

                                      "This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a long time.
                                        Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately
                                      requiredby PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in
                                      which it also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
                                      criterion". The PO can always prioritize as required."

                                      With one variable only "Done" I know the Feature is "Done" but
                                      "Localization" is "Not Done" and I have to only track it. So if the PO
                                      finds that out that localization is not required and we can ship the
                                      first release, we are "Done".

                                      Regards,




                                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach
                                      CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > kbs,
                                      >
                                      > > It also points to the fact that "Done" is decided on start of a
                                      story and thus
                                      > >can vary.
                                      > Can you point me to where it states this?
                                      >
                                      > Are you perhaps interpreting this line?
                                      > "Done defines what the Team means when it commits to
                                      “doing” a Product Backlog
                                      > item in a Sprint. "
                                      >
                                      > I think if you read the whole section on "Definition of Done" to get
                                      context,
                                      > you'll realize that they're not talking about re-defining the DoD for
                                      each
                                      > story, but rather defining a DoD that applies to the increment/product
                                      as a
                                      > whole(for that Scrum team).
                                      >
                                      > Here's the whole
                                      section:
                                      > <snip>
                                      >
                                      Done
                                      > Scrum requires Teams to build an increment of product functionality
                                      > every Sprint. This increment must be potentially shippable, for
                                      Product
                                      > Owner may choose to immediately implement the functionality. To do
                                      > so, the increment must be a complete slice of the product. It must be
                                      > “done.” Each increment should be additive to all prior
                                      increments and
                                      > thoroughly tested, ensuring that all increments work together.
                                      > In product development, asserting that functionality is done might
                                      lead
                                      > someone to assume that it is at least cleanly coded, refactored, unit
                                      > tested, built, and acceptance tested. Someone else might assume only
                                      > that the code has been built. If everyone doesn’t know what the
                                      > definition of “done” is, the other two legs of empirical
                                      process control
                                      > don’t work. When someone describes something as  done, everyone
                                      > must
                                      understand what done means.
                                      > Done defines what the Team means when it commits to
                                      “doing” a
                                      > Product Backlog item in a Sprint. Some products do not contain
                                      > documentation, so the definition of “done” does not
                                      include
                                      > documentation. A completely “done” increment includes
                                      all of the
                                      > analysis, design, refactoring, programming, documentation and testing
                                      > for  the increment and all Product Backlog items in the increment.
                                      > Testing includes unit, system, user, and regression testing, as well
                                      as
                                      > non-functional tests such as
                                      > performance, stability, security,
                                      > and integration. Done includes
                                      > any internationalization. Some
                                      > Teams aren’t yet able to include
                                      > everything required for
                                      > implementation in their definition
                                      > of done. This must be clear to
                                      > the Product Owner. This
                                      > remaining work will have to be
                                      >
                                      done before the product can be
                                      > implemented and used.
                                      > </snip>
                                      >
                                      >  -------
                                      > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                      > Experienced Scrum Coach
                                      > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > From: kbs_kulbhushan kbs_kulbhushan@...
                                      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 9:10:53 AM
                                      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story
                                      Acceptance
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hello,
                                      >
                                      > Alan:
                                      > Yes, you put it rightly.
                                      >
                                      > Charles:
                                      > I re-read the Scrum Guide and the following statement comes closest to
                                      what I
                                      > have seen on my team
                                      >
                                      >
                                      "That is, when someone inspecting a process believes that something is
                                      done; it
                                      > must be equivalent to their definition of done"
                                      >
                                      > It also points to the fact that "Done" is decided on start of a story
                                      and thus
                                      > can vary.
                                      >
                                      > Regards,
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Alan Dayley alandd@ wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I personally don't think it is possible to define universal terms
                                      for "done"
                                      > > or "quality" or any term for these concepts.  Each company,
                                      customer, team
                                      > > and person will have a different idea about them.  And each of them
                                      can be
                                      > > right in their context.  What is important is that such terms be
                                      well
                                      > > defined within a specific development
                                      organization, including the
                                      customer.
                                      > >  This is possible over time if full transparency and high levels of
                                      > > communication is happening.
                                      > >
                                      > > As long as the "definition of done" for Company A is understood and
                                      > > acceptable to the people in Company A and the customers of Company A
                                      it
                                      > > doesn't matter that it differs from Company B and Company B's
                                      customers.
                                      > >  Well, it matters to us who try to teach and talk with a wide
                                      industry view.
                                      > >  But industry wide needs are very secondary to the needs of each
                                      development
                                      > > ecosystem.
                                      > >
                                      > > Alan
                                      > >
                                      > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM
                                      PSM I <
                                      > > chuck-lists2@ wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Isn't the "Definition of Done" a "Quality standard to the PO" ?
                                      While the
                                      > > > term itself might define a concept, it definitely WILL be
                                      different to each
                                      > > > person... and in this case.. that person is the Scrum PO.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I agree that "Quality Standard" is probably not the best
                                      alternative term,
                                      > > > but that's why I gave several others as examples.  :-)
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > -------
                                      > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                      > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                                      > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > ------------------------------
                                      > > > *From:* Markus Gaertner shino@
                                      > > > *To:*
                                      href="mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com">scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > *Sent:* Mon, March 7, 2011
                                      7:07:48 AM
                                      > > > *Subject:* Re: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs.
                                      Story
                                      > > > Acceptance
                                      > > >
                                      > > > A quality standard as you coined it is also ambiguous. Referring
                                      to
                                      > > > Weinberg's "Quality is value to some person", quality as a term is
                                      confusing
                                      > > > enough to mean different things to different people. Consider the
                                      difference
                                      > > > in internal vs. external quality, or just the difference between
                                      quality as
                                      > > > perceived by the product owner vs. quality as perceived by the
                                      customer vs.
                                      > > > quality as perceived by the inidividual team member.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Coining the "Definition of Done" a quality standard would rather
                                      make
                                      > > > things more confusing. Think about the process of ATDD where you
                                      denote for
                                      > > > each story acceptance criteria on the back
                                      of the card. Are these
                                      the
                                      > > > quality standard? Or is this something different now? Calling a
                                      tail a leg
                                      > > > does not make it a leg.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Instead, I like to call it the team contract between the PO and
                                      the team
                                      > > > who implements it. It's a contract between the voice of the what
                                      and the
                                      > > > tribe of the how.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Referring back, of course, done means done to some person in the
                                      beginning,
                                      > > > as it is subject to the Relative Rule (see The Gift of Time,
                                      Michael
                                      > > > Bolton's chapter). Done means Done to some person. Calling it
                                      quality
                                      > > > instead of done does not improve the situation, from my point it
                                      worsens it.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Best
                                      > > > Markus Gaertner
                                      > > >
                                      href="http://www.shino.de/blog">http://www.shino.de/blog
                                      > > > http://www.it-agile.de
                                      > > > Twitter: @mgaertne
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > From: chuck-lists2@
                                      > > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Date: 07.03.2011 14:34:55
                                      > > > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story
                                      Acceptance
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > kbs_kulbhushan,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > That was my whole point.  Stories are not "marked Done."  The
                                      way the
                                      > > > Scrum
                                      > > > > Guide is written (and btw, I'm not a
                                      fan of this - I believe it
                                      to be
                                      > > > > confusing), the "Definition of Done"(DoD) applies to an
                                      increment as a
                                      > > > whole,
                                      > > > > not individual stories.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > IMO, it would be better to call a story "Complete" or "Accepted"
                                      rather
                                      > > > than
                                      > > > > "Done", if for no other reason than keeping the terminology
                                      straight and
                                      > > > clear.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I think others have coined the phrase "Done Done".  So, while a
                                      story
                                      > > > might be
                                      > > > > considered "Done" (Accepted/Completed), the increment might be
                                      considered
                                      > > > "Done
                                      > > > > Done" (where "Done Done" is defined as an increment meeting the
                                      > > > "Definition of
                                      > > > > Done").  I'm not a huge fan of this terminology either.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I almost
                                      would prefer that the Scrum Guide come up with a new
                                      term for
                                      > > > > "Definition of Done".  Something like "Quality Agreement" or
                                      "Software
                                      > > > Quality
                                      > > > > Standard" or "Quality Standard" or "Completion Standard" or
                                      "Increment
                                      > > > Quality
                                      > > > > Standard", or something else that stands a little more unique so
                                      that a
                                      > > > general
                                      > > > > word like "Done" doesn't come to mean 5 different things in
                                      Scrum.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > -------
                                      > > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                      > > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                                      > > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      ________________________________
                                      > > > > From: kbs_kulbhushan
                                      > > > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > > Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 5:37:14 AM
                                      > > > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story
                                      Acceptance
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Hello Charles,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > This would mean that the stories are not marked "Done" for a
                                      long time.
                                      > > > > Why should we not split the story such that what is immediately
                                      required
                                      > > > > by PO (e.g. for customer feedback) is separate from the one in
                                      which it
                                      > > > > also meets it "performance criterion" or "internationalization
                                      > > > > criterion". The PO can
                                      always prioritize as required.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > This points at "Done" being different for each User Story and it
                                      is the
                                      > > > > parameter which is tracked.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Regards,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B
                                      > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >  * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product
                                      Baklog
                                      > > > > Item(PBI),
                                      > > > > > if you will)or said another way:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >  * The Definition of
                                      Done is different for each story.I don't
                                      agree
                                      > > > > with this.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > There is a subtle but important difference between the
                                      Definition of
                                      > > > > Done and
                                      > > > > > Acceptance Criteria.  It is summarized as follows:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Definition of Done:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >  * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >  * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment
                                      is
                                      > > > > shippable
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >  * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
                                      > > > > >  * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
                                      > > > > >  * Overall Software Quality
                                      > > > > >  * Whether the
                                      increment is shippable or not    Acceptance
                                      Criteria
                                      > > > > > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some
                                      cases "Test
                                      > > > > Cases,"
                                      > > > > > etc)
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >  * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >  * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >  * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
                                      > > > > >  * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the
                                      requirements
                                      > > > > for a
                                      > > > > > particular PBI/story have been met
                                      > > > > > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the
                                      Definition of
                                      > > > > Done for
                                      > > > > > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the
                                      product increment
                                      meets that
                                      > > > > PBI's
                                      > > > > > specific acceptance criteria.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the
                                      converse is
                                      > > > > also
                                      > > > > > always true:  "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of
                                      Done."  For
                                      > > > > instance,
                                      > > > > > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition
                                      of Done,
                                      > > > > but not be
                                      > > > > > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >  * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >  * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in
                                      a test
                                      > > > > environment
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >  * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
                                      > > > > >  -------
                                      > > > > > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                      > > > > > Experienced Scrum Coach
                                      > > > > > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
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                                    • Kelly
                                      Hi Chuck. Just sticking my two pence worth... The definition of done could potentially be things that refer to each story, but it is still different to
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Mar 14, 2011
                                        Hi Chuck. Just sticking my two pence worth...

                                        The definition of done could potentially be things that refer to each story, but it is still different to acceptance criteria (or test confirmations).

                                        For instance, wherever I've worked, the definition of done has been a checklist or clarification on what people expect to be completed before any story can be called done. It's tended to include things like it must be coded, tested, documented, have automated tests, be signed off by the PO, etc. Here's an example -

                                        http://www.allaboutagile.com/definition-of-done-10-point-checklist/

                                        Acceptance criteria, or test confirmations, on the other hand are more about what tests the feature has to pass in order to be 'done'. For instance, test confirmations for a credit card processing story might include: accepts visa, accepts mastercard, doesn't accept amex, handles expired cards, etc.

                                        In our case, the test confirmations apply to an individual user story, whereas the definition of done applies to all user stories. Therefore each story is only done when both are completed.

                                        Hope that helps,

                                        Kelly
                                        All About Agile
                                        www.allaboutagile.com


                                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
                                        >
                                        > * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product Baklog Item(PBI),
                                        > if you will)or said another way:
                                        >
                                        > * The Definition of Done is different for each story.I don't agree with this.
                                        >
                                        > There is a subtle but important difference between the Definition of Done and
                                        > Acceptance Criteria. It is summarized as follows:
                                        >
                                        > Definition of Done:
                                        >
                                        > * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
                                        >
                                        > * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment is shippable
                                        >
                                        > * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
                                        > * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
                                        > * Overall Software Quality
                                        > * Whether the increment is shippable or not Acceptance Criteria
                                        > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some cases "Test Cases,"
                                        > etc)
                                        >
                                        > * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
                                        >
                                        > * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
                                        >
                                        > * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
                                        > * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the requirements for a
                                        > particular PBI/story have been met
                                        > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the Definition of Done for
                                        > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the product increment meets that PBI's
                                        > specific acceptance criteria.
                                        >
                                        > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the converse is also
                                        > always true: "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of Done." For instance,
                                        > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition of Done, but not be
                                        > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
                                        >
                                        > * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
                                        >
                                        > * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in a test environment
                                        >
                                        > * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
                                        > -------
                                        > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                        > Experienced Scrum Coach
                                        > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                                        >
                                      • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                                        Kelly, I m pretty ok with what you said here. What you ve described here seems to me to be a Definition of Done that can apply to Stories, but it is not a DoD
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Mar 15, 2011
                                          Kelly,

                                          I'm pretty ok with what you said here.  What you've described here seems to me to be a Definition of Done that can apply to Stories, but it is not a DoD that changes for each story, or somehow supplants Acceptance Tests.  I'm good with that.

                                          My concern is with people using "Done" and "Definition of Done" like terminology to describe when a Story meets its acceptance criteria, or that somehow the DoD is different for every Story.  The DoD needs to be broadly applied to the increment as a whole, and should stay relatively constant.  Of course, as teams update their DoD(hopefully improving it!), things will change, but it shouldn't be different for each Story.  Also, when the DoD changes, it is imperative that it be well communicated to all on the Scrum Team, and especially the PO.
                                           
                                          -------
                                          Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                          Experienced Scrum Coach
                                          My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/



                                          From: Kelly <allaboutagile@...>
                                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Mon, March 14, 2011 11:57:08 AM
                                          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance

                                          Hi Chuck.  Just sticking my two pence worth...

                                          The definition of done could potentially be things that refer to each story, but it is still different to acceptance criteria (or test confirmations).

                                          For instance, wherever I've worked, the definition of done has been a checklist or clarification on what people expect to be completed before any story can be called done.  It's tended to include things like it must be coded, tested, documented, have automated tests, be signed off by the PO, etc.  Here's an example -

                                          http://www.allaboutagile.com/definition-of-done-10-point-checklist/

                                          Acceptance criteria, or test confirmations, on the other hand are more about what tests the feature has to pass in order to be 'done'.  For instance, test confirmations for a credit card processing story might include: accepts visa, accepts mastercard, doesn't accept amex, handles expired cards, etc.

                                          In our case, the test confirmations apply to an individual user story, whereas the definition of done applies to all user stories.  Therefore each story is only done when both are completed.

                                          Hope that helps,

                                          Kelly
                                          All About Agile
                                          www.allaboutagile.com


                                          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
                                          >
                                          >     * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product Baklog Item(PBI),
                                          > if you will)or said another way:
                                          >
                                          >     * The Definition of Done is different for each story.I don't agree with this.
                                          >
                                          > There is a subtle but important difference between the Definition of Done and
                                          > Acceptance Criteria.  It is summarized as follows:
                                          >
                                          > Definition of Done:
                                          >
                                          >     * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
                                          >
                                          >     * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment is shippable
                                          >
                                          >     * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
                                          >     * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
                                          >     * Overall Software Quality
                                          >     * Whether the increment is shippable or not    Acceptance Criteria
                                          > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some cases "Test Cases,"
                                          > etc)
                                          >
                                          >     * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
                                          >
                                          >     * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
                                          >
                                          >     * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
                                          >     * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the requirements for a
                                          > particular PBI/story have been met
                                          > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the Definition of Done for
                                          > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the product increment meets that PBI's
                                          > specific acceptance criteria.
                                          >
                                          > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the converse is also
                                          > always true:  "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of Done."  For instance,
                                          > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition of Done, but not be
                                          > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
                                          >
                                          >     * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
                                          >
                                          >     * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in a test environment
                                          >
                                          >     * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
                                          >  -------
                                          > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                          > Experienced Scrum Coach
                                          > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                                          >




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                                        • Steve Ash
                                          Hi all A little confused! Could not the DoD include the line Has passed all Acceptance Tests ? All you do then for each story is to prioritise the Acceptance
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Mar 16, 2011

                                            Hi all

                                             

                                            A little confused! Could not the DoD include the line ‘Has passed all Acceptance Tests’?

                                             

                                            All you do then for each story is to prioritise the Acceptance Tests’ some of them not being mandatory.

                                             

                                            Thoughts?

                                             

                                             

                                            Steve Ash

                                            Agile Project Leadership Practitioner and Examiner

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                                          • Victor Hugo de Oliveira
                                            Charles, as I see it, the DoD is all about transparency. The DoD applies to all items in the backlog indeed because when the PO looks at the potentially
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Mar 17, 2011
                                              Charles,

                                                 as I see it, the DoD is all about transparency. The DoD applies to all items in the backlog indeed because when the PO looks at the potentially shippable product he knows that each part of it has some consistency.
                                                 It turns out that any DoD that I've seen has the need for acceptance in it. So to be Done, an item needs to be accepted and the acceptance criteria changes for each item. I don't see an inconsistency in this, do you ?

                                              Best Regards,
                                              Victor

                                              On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                                               

                                              Kelly,

                                              I'm pretty ok with what you said here.  What you've described here seems to me to be a Definition of Done that can apply to Stories, but it is not a DoD that changes for each story, or somehow supplants Acceptance Tests.  I'm good with that.

                                              My concern is with people using "Done" and "Definition of Done" like terminology to describe when a Story meets its acceptance criteria, or that somehow the DoD is different for every Story.  The DoD needs to be broadly applied to the increment as a whole, and should stay relatively constant.  Of course, as teams update their DoD(hopefully improving it!), things will change, but it shouldn't be different for each Story.  Also, when the DoD changes, it is imperative that it be well communicated to all on the Scrum Team, and especially the PO.

                                               
                                              -------
                                              Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                              Experienced Scrum Coach
                                              My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/



                                              From: Kelly <allaboutagile@...>
                                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Mon, March 14, 2011 11:57:08 AM

                                              Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Definition of Done vs. Story Acceptance

                                              Hi Chuck.  Just sticking my two pence worth...

                                              The definition of done could potentially be things that refer to each story, but it is still different to acceptance criteria (or test confirmations).

                                              For instance, wherever I've worked, the definition of done has been a checklist or clarification on what people expect to be completed before any story can be called done.  It's tended to include things like it must be coded, tested, documented, have automated tests, be signed off by the PO, etc.  Here's an example -

                                              http://www.allaboutagile.com/definition-of-done-10-point-checklist/

                                              Acceptance criteria, or test confirmations, on the other hand are more about what tests the feature has to pass in order to be 'done'.  For instance, test confirmations for a credit card processing story might include: accepts visa, accepts mastercard, doesn't accept amex, handles expired cards, etc.

                                              In our case, the test confirmations apply to an individual user story, whereas the definition of done applies to all user stories.  Therefore each story is only done when both are completed.

                                              Hope that helps,

                                              Kelly
                                              All About Agile
                                              www.allaboutagile.com


                                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Chuck B <chuck-lists2@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I've seen many emails lately on this list that imply that
                                              >
                                              >     * The Definition of Done is defined per story(or per Product Baklog Item(PBI),
                                              > if you will)or said another way:
                                              >
                                              >     * The Definition of Done is different for each story.I don't agree with this.
                                              >
                                              > There is a subtle but important difference between the Definition of Done and
                                              > Acceptance Criteria.  It is summarized as follows:
                                              >
                                              > Definition of Done:
                                              >
                                              >     * The term applies more to the product increment as a whole
                                              >
                                              >     * In most cases, the term implies that the product increment is shippable
                                              >
                                              >     * The term is defined in the Scrum Guide
                                              >     * Used as a way to communicate the following to the PO
                                              >     * Overall Software Quality
                                              >     * Whether the increment is shippable or not    Acceptance Criteria
                                              > (aka Acceptance Tests, Conditions of Satisfaction, in some cases "Test Cases,"
                                              > etc)
                                              >
                                              >     * The term applies to an individual PBI/Story
                                              >
                                              >     * The Acceptance Criteria are different for each PBI/Story
                                              >
                                              >     * Term is not defined in the Scrum Guide
                                              >     * Used as a way to communicate to all involved that the requirements for a
                                              > particular PBI/story have been met
                                              > If you wanted to, I guess you could say that part of the Definition of Done for
                                              > any Sprint is that each PBI/Story in the product increment meets that PBI's
                                              > specific acceptance criteria.
                                              >
                                              > However, I don't know if you could definitely say that the converse is also
                                              > always true:  "Each PBI must also meet the Definition of Done."  For instance,
                                              > one could decide that these things be part of the Definition of Done, but not be
                                              > part of the acceptance criteria for each individual PBI:
                                              >
                                              >     * Performance Testing on the integrated product increment
                                              >
                                              >     * Exploratory testing on the integrated product increment in a test environment
                                              >
                                              >     * Exploratory testing in a Staging/Pre-production environment
                                              >  -------
                                              > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                                              > Experienced Scrum Coach
                                              > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
                                              >




                                              ------------------------------------


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                                              Atenciosamente,
                                              Victor Hugo de Oliveira
                                              PSD Trainer (visit Scrum.org)

                                              @v_oliv
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