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Differences between Scrum Alliance and Scrum.org trained ScrumMasters?

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  • Peter Stevens (cal)
    Hi everyone, In a recent post on moving tasks between stories, Charles Brady CSM PSM derived his answer directly from Ken Schwaber s Scrum Guide. I think I
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 19, 2011
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      Hi everyone,

      In a recent post on moving tasks between stories, Charles Brady CSM PSM derived his answer directly
      from Ken Schwaber's Scrum Guide.

      I think I have heard the Scrum Guide cited as reference on a couple of occasions recently on this
      list, and it led me to wonder: Has anyone noticed differences in style, approach or substance
      between Scrum Alliance and Scrum.org trained ScrumMasters?" Or are differences more related to the
      approach of individual trainers? Or is it too soon even to ask the question? (And is it possible to
      ask the question, without representatives of both organizations explaining why their approach is
      better ;-)?

      Cheers,

      Peter




      --
      Peter Stevens, Partner
      DasScrumTeam GmbH

      direct: +41 44 586 6450
      cell: +41 79 422 6722
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    • Michael James
      ... I m currently listening to two ScrumAlliance trainers argue whether the Product Owner is responsible for vision and ROI, or is more of a line manager in a
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 19, 2011
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        On Feb 19, 2011, at 2:10 AM, Peter Stevens (cal) wrote:

        Has anyone noticed differences in style, approach or substance
        between Scrum Alliance and Scrum.org trained ScrumMasters?" Or are differences more related to the
        approach of individual trainers? 

        I'm currently listening to two ScrumAlliance trainers argue whether the Product Owner is responsible for vision and ROI, or is more of a line manager in a chain of command.  So my guess is there's a greater difference in message between trainers than between ScrumAlliance and Scrum.org.  This is just conjecture, since I don't know the Scrum.org trainers other than Ken himself.  I did have one of my CSM participants pay for the Scrum.org PSM test by mistake, and pass it.  This tends to confirm my subjective belief/hope that I'm still carrying Ken's flag while being affiliated with the ScrumAlliance.

        --mj


      • alex.armstrong
        One of the things we strive for among the Scrum.org trainer community is consistent quality and message. We support this with common courseware, assessments,
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 20, 2011
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          One of the things we strive for among the Scrum.org trainer community is consistent quality and message. We support this with common courseware, assessments, and frequent interactions among all of the trainers. If there is an argument like the one referenced by Michael below, we come together to collectively agree on a decision or guidance that can be shared by all. Trainers still bring their own style to courses, guided by their personality and real-world experience, but where possible we remove ambiguity around questions like the one below.

          Best,
          Alex Armstrong
          Scrum.org

          P.S. The PO is absolutely responsible for ROI and vision. She takes input from many stakeholders, but in the end is the single responsible party for the value created with her product.

          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Michael James <mj4scrum@...> wrote:
          >
          > On Feb 19, 2011, at 2:10 AM, Peter Stevens (cal) wrote:
          >
          > > Has anyone noticed differences in style, approach or substance
          > > between Scrum Alliance and Scrum.org trained ScrumMasters?" Or are differences more related to the
          > > approach of individual trainers?
          >
          > I'm currently listening to two ScrumAlliance trainers argue whether the Product Owner is responsible for vision and ROI, or is more of a line manager in a chain of command. So my guess is there's a greater difference in message between trainers than between ScrumAlliance and Scrum.org. This is just conjecture, since I don't know the Scrum.org trainers other than Ken himself. I did have one of my CSM participants pay for the Scrum.org PSM test by mistake, and pass it. This tends to confirm my subjective belief/hope that I'm still carrying Ken's flag while being affiliated with the ScrumAlliance.
          >
          > --mj
          > http://ScrumReferenceCard.com
          >
        • DH.
          ... In an ideal environment that statement might be true. As much as I love to advocate Scrum and fight to uphold its principles there are many corporate
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 20, 2011
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            >
            > P.S. The PO is absolutely responsible for ROI and vision. She takes input from many stakeholders, but in the end is the single responsible party for the value created with her product.

            In an ideal environment that statement might be true. As much as I love to advocate Scrum and fight to uphold its principles there are many corporate structure already in place which make this next to impossible. I think we should be very careful when we start speaking in absolutes as coaches, trainers and many of us who are now on the path of being innovators ourselves.

            David
          • ronjeffries@acm.org
            What is the problem with Scrum meaning what it means? R
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 20, 2011
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              What is the problem with Scrum meaning what it means?

              R



              On Feb 20, 2011, at 12:57 PM, "DH." <dmalloc@...> wrote:

              >
              >>
              >> P.S. The PO is absolutely responsible for ROI and vision. She takes input from many stakeholders, but in the end is the single responsible party for the value created with her product.
              >
              > In an ideal environment that statement might be true. As much as I love to advocate Scrum and fight to uphold its principles there are many corporate structure already in place which make this next to impossible. I think we should be very careful when we start speaking in absolutes as coaches, trainers and many of us who are now on the path of being innovators ourselves.
              >
              > David
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • DH.
              ... What is the problem with Scrum meaning what it means? ... -d
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 20, 2011
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                :
                What is the problem with Scrum meaning what it means?
                >
                > That I am not you, Ron and I actually have to take my clients wishes into account if I want to keep my job. That is not meant to sound arrogant or accusatory, I simply believe that few people have achieved the status you have in the community and business world and as such there are some earned freedoms that come with it. I do not quite have those yet.

                -d
              • ronjeffries@acm.org
                If Scrum means whatever people say it means, then it will lose more and more of its ability to communicate ideas. It will become like Agile , which has come
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 20, 2011
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                  If Scrum means whatever people say it means, then it will lose more and more of its ability to communicate ideas. It will become like "Agile", which has come to mean essentially nothing.

                  It seems to me that you are the one taking "freedom" with the term, while I am suggesting that we ought to use it according to some common definition. As such, I do not understand how the comments about status apply.

                  Naturally, my thoughts do not have force of law. I do believe that we are all better served when we use these terms consistently, not whimsically.

                  Regards,

                  R



                  On Feb 20, 2011, at 3:32 PM, "DH." <dmalloc@...> wrote:

                  > :
                  > What is the problem with Scrum meaning what it means?
                  >>
                  >> That I am not you, Ron and I actually have to take my clients wishes into account if I want to keep my job. That is not meant to sound arrogant or accusatory, I simply believe that few people have achieved the status you have in the community and business world and as such there are some earned freedoms that come with it. I do not quite have those yet.
                  >
                  > -d
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Sarath Kummamuru
                  Completely agree with Ron. Over the past 5 years of coaching teams and organizations, have faced this consistent push back a lot of time of adapting agile,
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 20, 2011
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                    Completely agree with Ron. 

                    Over the past 5 years of coaching teams and organizations, have faced this consistent push back a lot of time of "adapting" agile, or customizing agile. I believe these are only push backs to not go agile in the true spirit.

                    To the extent some people have also said "Sarath you need to be practical about agile, we want to be agile, but have our restrictions"!!! Indicating that they want to get called agile for reasons other than the benefits they should be believing in leveraging out of going agile. 

                    The bare minimum of going agile is to understand the right way of doing it, recognizing values and understanding the benefits of the practices and retrospect constantly to ensure we achieve "continuous improvement" If that is watered down, the there is no longer agile out there in the org. 

                    Thanks,
                    Sarath.

                    On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 2:53 AM, <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                     

                    If Scrum means whatever people say it means, then it will lose more and more of its ability to communicate ideas. It will become like "Agile", which has come to mean essentially nothing.

                    It seems to me that you are the one taking "freedom" with the term, while I am suggesting that we ought to use it according to some common definition. As such, I do not understand how the comments about status apply.

                    Naturally, my thoughts do not have force of law. I do believe that we are all better served when we use these terms consistently, not whimsically.

                    Regards,

                    R



                    On Feb 20, 2011, at 3:32 PM, "DH." <dmalloc@...> wrote:

                    > :
                    > What is the problem with Scrum meaning what it means?
                    >>
                    >> That I am not you, Ron and I actually have to take my clients wishes into account if I want to keep my job. That is not meant to sound arrogant or accusatory, I simply believe that few people have achieved the status you have in the community and business world and as such there are some earned freedoms that come with it. I do not quite have those yet.
                    >
                    > -d
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------

                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >




                    --
                    Thanks,
                    Sarath.

                    Quad One Technologies | Mobile: +91 98490 05629 | Off: +91 40 2335 0221 | www.quadone.com
                  • Peter Stevens (cal)
                    On 20.02.11 18:34, alex.armstrong wrote: One of the things we strive for among the Scrum.org trainer community is consistent quality and message. We support
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 21, 2011
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                      On 20.02.11 18:34, alex.armstrong wrote:
                       

                      One of the things we strive for among the Scrum.org trainer community is consistent quality and message. We support this with common courseware, assessments, and frequent interactions among all of the trainers. If there is an argument like the one referenced by Michael below, we come together to collectively agree on a decision or guidance that can be shared by all. Trainers still bring their own style to courses, guided by their personality and real-world experience, but where possible we remove ambiguity around questions like the one below.

                      Best,
                      Alex Armstrong
                      Scrum.org

                      Hi Alex,

                      So if I am hearing you correctly, the Scrum.org approach could be described as 'there is One True Scrum and this is defined by Ken Schwaber'.

                      In this case, I would expect Scrum.org-trained PSMs to have a strong focus on referring to the Scrum Guide for guidance on how to solve problems.

                      Cheers,
                      Peter



                      -- 
                      Peter Stevens, Partner 
                      DasScrumTeam GmbH 
                      
                      direct: +41 44 586 6450 
                      cell:   +41 79 422 6722
                      skype:  peterstev
                      
                      blog:   http://scrum-breakfast.com
                      
                      My New Email Address: peter.stevens@...
                      Please update your address book. Thanks!
                      
                    • alex.armstrong
                      Hi Peter, Sorry, I am slightly confused. Are you suggesting that Scrum is not defined by Jeff and Ken? The Scrum Guide is not guidance for how to solve
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 21, 2011
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                        Hi Peter,

                        Sorry, I am slightly confused. Are you suggesting that Scrum is 'not' defined by Jeff and Ken?

                        The Scrum Guide is not guidance for how to solve problems, it merely defines the framework within which those problems can be solved. You know that as well as anyone. Coaches and trainers merely enforce the rules as they work with organizations to help solve the problems that org is facing.

                        We strive for consistency in describing the framework and rules. There is very little consistency in how to address specific organizational problems. There should be complete consistency about whether or not the role of the PO in Scrum is to ensure the value of the things the team is building.

                        Warmest regards,
                        Alex
                      • Peter Stevens (calendar)
                        ... It does seem to me there are many things in Scrum or closely associated with Scrum that did not come from Ken or Jeff. User Stories, Story Points and the
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 21, 2011
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                          On 2/21/11 4:35 PM, alex.armstrong wrote:
                           

                          Sorry, I am slightly confused. Are you suggesting that Scrum is 'not' defined by Jeff and Ken?

                          It does seem to me there are many things in Scrum or closely associated with Scrum that did not come from Ken or Jeff. User Stories, Story Points and the Task Board come to mind. So does the practice of counting tasks in the Sprint Backlog rather than reestimating them in hours every day. If I am not mistaken, User Stories and Story Points were made popular by Mike Cohn. I don't know who invented the task board or how the practice of counting tickets emerged.

                          So I guess that might be an interesting question, where is the thought leadership on Scrum? How does that affect how ScrumMasters are trained? That scrum.org puts the thought leadership clearly in the hands of Ken and Jeff I think is clear. It is not so clear to me that the Scrum Alliance or its trainers see it that way (nor is it clear that they have a clear, alternative vision).

                          Could that lead to a conformist 'look it up in the rulebook' approach in scrum.org trainees and a wild, free thinking but probably not very conformist spirit among the scrum alliance trainees?

                          Cheers,
                          Peter
                        • alex.armstrong
                          Hi Peter, Interesting thoughts for sure. We strive for consistency only where it makes sense. We absolutely require consistency on the simple rules of Scrum
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 28, 2011
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                            Hi Peter,

                            Interesting thoughts for sure. We strive for consistency only where it makes sense. We absolutely require consistency on the simple rules of Scrum that ensure it works. Beyond that, where there isn't a single answer, we seek and foster discussion amongst the trainer community with the hope that trainers are well versed in the alternatives.

                            Alex

                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Stevens (calendar)" <peterstev@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > On 2/21/11 4:35 PM, alex.armstrong wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Sorry, I am slightly confused. Are you suggesting that Scrum is 'not'
                            > > defined by Jeff and Ken?
                            > >
                            > It does seem to me there are many things in Scrum or closely associated
                            > with Scrum that did not come from Ken or Jeff. User Stories, Story
                            > Points and the Task Board come to mind. So does the practice of counting
                            > tasks in the Sprint Backlog rather than reestimating them in hours every
                            > day. If I am not mistaken, User Stories and Story Points were made
                            > popular by Mike Cohn. I don't know who invented the task board or how
                            > the practice of counting tickets emerged.
                            >
                            > So I guess that might be an interesting question, where is the thought
                            > leadership on Scrum? How does that affect how ScrumMasters are trained?
                            > That scrum.org puts the thought leadership clearly in the hands of Ken
                            > and Jeff I think is clear. It is not so clear to me that the Scrum
                            > Alliance or its trainers see it that way (nor is it clear that they have
                            > a clear, alternative vision).
                            >
                            > Could that lead to a conformist 'look it up in the rulebook' approach in
                            > scrum.org trainees and a wild, free thinking but probably not very
                            > conformist spirit among the scrum alliance trainees?
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            > Peter
                            >
                          • Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I
                            Peter, I don t know that I would characterize most of what you talk about below as Scrum , or part of the Scrum Framework per se. I tend to refer to those
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 28, 2011
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                              Peter,

                              I don't know that I would characterize most of what you talk about below as "Scrum", or part of the "Scrum Framework" per se.

                              I tend to refer to those techniques as "Scrum strategies" or "Scrum optimizations within the framework" or "Scrum Finishes" (used similar to the house building term for finishing out the framework of a house).  I would open to a better term, but I think it's important sometimes to make a distinction between what is prescribed by the framework in the Scrum Guide, and what is an implementation of something within the framework itself.  Does that make sense?

                              I really wish we had a good term for this kind of thing.  Are people already using a term for this concept?
                               
                              -------
                              Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
                              Experienced Scrum Coach
                              My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/



                              From: alex.armstrong <alex.armstrong@...>
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 10:14:18 AM
                              Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Differences between Scrum Alliance and Scrum.org trained ScrumMasters?

                              Hi Peter,

                              Interesting thoughts for sure. We strive for consistency only where it makes sense. We absolutely require consistency on the simple rules of Scrum that ensure it works. Beyond that, where there isn't a single answer, we seek and foster discussion amongst the trainer community with the hope that trainers are well versed in the alternatives.

                              Alex

                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Stevens (calendar)" <peterstev@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > On 2/21/11 4:35 PM, alex.armstrong wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Sorry, I am slightly confused. Are you suggesting that Scrum is 'not'
                              > > defined by Jeff and Ken?
                              > >
                              > It does seem to me there are many things in Scrum or closely associated
                              > with Scrum that did not come from Ken or Jeff. User Stories, Story
                              > Points and the Task Board come to mind. So does the practice of counting
                              > tasks in the Sprint Backlog rather than reestimating them in hours every
                              > day. If I am not mistaken, User Stories and Story Points were made
                              > popular by Mike Cohn. I don't know who invented the task board or how
                              > the practice of counting tickets emerged.
                              >
                              > So I guess that might be an interesting question, where is the thought
                              > leadership on Scrum? How does that affect how ScrumMasters are trained?
                              > That scrum.org puts the thought leadership clearly in the hands of Ken
                              > and Jeff I think is clear. It is not so clear to me that the Scrum
                              > Alliance or its trainers see it that way (nor is it clear that they have
                              > a clear, alternative vision).
                              >
                              > Could that lead to a conformist 'look it up in the rulebook' approach in
                              > scrum.org trainees and a wild, free thinking but probably not very
                              > conformist spirit among the scrum alliance trainees?
                              >
                              > Cheers,
                              > Peter
                              >


                            • jsutherland
                              Scrum was defined by me and Ken based on my 1993 Scrum implementation at Easel Corporation. The first produce owner owned the product vision and the ROI. He
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 1, 2011
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                                Scrum was defined by me and Ken based on my 1993 Scrum implementation at Easel Corporation. The first produce owner owned the product vision and the ROI. He was assisted by stakeholders, particularly me as the Chief Engineer for the company. I hired the Product Owner and supervised him. In the venture community our investors are starting to say the CEO needs to be the Chief Product Owner or the product sucks. They like the Steve Jobs model.

                                There are many random debates among new Scrum trainers and sometimes confusion that is surprising to me. Since I put Scrum in the public domain in 1995 with Ken's agreement, other people may produce derivative works. However, they should cite the definitive source which is the Scrum Guide.

                                There is also a Scrum Handbook ready for publication that I give to all those working with Scrum, Inc. classes or consulting engagements. This has been reviewed and edited by Ken to make sure we are consistent with the Scrum guide. Also, some of the leading trainers in the world are giving me feedback to fine tune it before publishing to be clear on these issues. Anyone who wants a pre-publication copy should sent a note to info@.... You are welcome to recommend edits before publication.

                                Jeff Sutherland
                                Scrum, Inc.


                                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Michael James <mj4scrum@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > On Feb 19, 2011, at 2:10 AM, Peter Stevens (cal) wrote:
                                >
                                > > Has anyone noticed differences in style, approach or substance
                                > > between Scrum Alliance and Scrum.org trained ScrumMasters?" Or are differences more related to the
                                > > approach of individual trainers?
                                >
                                > I'm currently listening to two ScrumAlliance trainers argue whether the Product Owner is responsible for vision and ROI, or is more of a line manager in a chain of command. So my guess is there's a greater difference in message between trainers than between ScrumAlliance and Scrum.org. This is just conjecture, since I don't know the Scrum.org trainers other than Ken himself. I did have one of my CSM participants pay for the Scrum.org PSM test by mistake, and pass it. This tends to confirm my subjective belief/hope that I'm still carrying Ken's flag while being affiliated with the ScrumAlliance.
                                >
                                > --mj
                                > http://ScrumReferenceCard.com
                                >
                              • Adam Sroka
                                Interesting. I look forward to seeing the handbook. BTW, produce owner is my favorite typo of the week ;-) On Mar 1, 2011 10:40 AM, jsutherland
                                Message 15 of 15 , Mar 1, 2011
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                                  Interesting. I look forward to seeing the handbook.

                                  BTW, "produce owner" is my favorite typo of the week ;-)

                                  On Mar 1, 2011 10:40 AM, "jsutherland" <jeff.sutherland@...> wrote:
                                  > Scrum was defined by me and Ken based on my 1993 Scrum implementation at Easel Corporation. The first produce owner owned the product vision and the ROI. He was assisted by stakeholders, particularly me as the Chief Engineer for the company. I hired the Product Owner and supervised him. In the venture community our investors are starting to say the CEO needs to be the Chief Product Owner or the product sucks. They like the Steve Jobs model.
                                  >
                                  > There are many random debates among new Scrum trainers and sometimes confusion that is surprising to me. Since I put Scrum in the public domain in 1995 with Ken's agreement, other people may produce derivative works. However, they should cite the definitive source which is the Scrum Guide.
                                  >
                                  > There is also a Scrum Handbook ready for publication that I give to all those working with Scrum, Inc. classes or consulting engagements. This has been reviewed and edited by Ken to make sure we are consistent with the Scrum guide. Also, some of the leading trainers in the world are giving me feedback to fine tune it before publishing to be clear on these issues. Anyone who wants a pre-publication copy should sent a note to info@.... You are welcome to recommend edits before publication.
                                  >
                                  > Jeff Sutherland
                                  > Scrum, Inc.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Michael James <mj4scrum@...> wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >> On Feb 19, 2011, at 2:10 AM, Peter Stevens (cal) wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >> > Has anyone noticed differences in style, approach or substance
                                  >> > between Scrum Alliance and Scrum.org trained ScrumMasters?" Or are differences more related to the
                                  >> > approach of individual trainers?
                                  >>
                                  >> I'm currently listening to two ScrumAlliance trainers argue whether the Product Owner is responsible for vision and ROI, or is more of a line manager in a chain of command. So my guess is there's a greater difference in message between trainers than between ScrumAlliance and Scrum.org. This is just conjecture, since I don't know the Scrum.org trainers other than Ken himself. I did have one of my CSM participants pay for the Scrum.org PSM test by mistake, and pass it. This tends to confirm my subjective belief/hope that I'm still carrying Ken's flag while being affiliated with the ScrumAlliance.
                                  >>
                                  >> --mj
                                  >> http://ScrumReferenceCard.com
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
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