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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

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  • Mark Levison
    Venkatesh - as Alan said earlier you Director of Engineering couldn t care less about change. He wants quality software delivered on a regular basis. This is a
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 6, 2010
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      Venkatesh - as Alan said earlier you Director of Engineering couldn't care less about change. He wants quality software delivered on a regular basis. This is a frequent problem in the community. My mantra: Selling Agile? Don't Sell Listen. Your Director has problems and pain, the question is what are they? Isn't of telling someone in position of power what you want, find out what they need. It nearly always boils down to "Better Quality", "Faster Time to Market". If you're lucky its both. Instead promoting a full blown methodology change offer something small to help make either one of these marginally better. We're not looking for solving the whole problem here, just a small win. You and your team need to demonstrate over the course of a few weeks that you can make things a bit better. Every time you do this you will build a bit more trust and the freedom to do more the next time. Eventually you will gain the freedom to make a more complete transition.

      The key: Ask your Director what they care about, Listen, Listen, Listen. Focus on delivering what they value. Eventually your values will line up.


      Blog | Twitter | Office: (613) 862-2538

    • Michael James
      ... Good video. --mj
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 6, 2010
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        On Oct 5, 2010, at 6:13 PM, JackM wrote:

        > The best thing to do is to send your director the link to a great video. There is one that Ken Schwabber gave to google. It's on google tech talk at
        >
        > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7230144396191025011#

        Good video.
        --mj
      • Roy Morien
        I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 6, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then everything should be fine. The problem would be if that same management tried to prevent you from working that way, which, if they have any sense at all, they will judge by your results. So everything should be A-OK.

          Unfortunately, I have had the experience, albeit not in software development, of a manager imposing 'his' way. He saw objections from me as an attempt to undermine his authority, and it caused friction. Even more unfortunately, I was right which he had to admit to some time later. This exacerbated the bad relationship between us. His parting comment to me was 'you have won a victory' as I left his office after being told of his change of decision.

          Managers usually feel that they MUST be right. That's ok if they are right right, but can cause a lot of tension if they are wrong right.

          Regards,
          Roy Morien

          ps: I even had one manager who quoted biblical scripture to me to prove his rightness as a manager.


          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          From: rafaelfuchs@...
          Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:34:28 -0300
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

           
          My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems.
          They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed.
          But they wanted to be aware on how we were working.

          It's important considering this when changing the process the way I did.


          Att.

          Rafael Fuchs
          --
          rafaelfuchs@...
          +55 51 9993-8953
          http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


          On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 02:26, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
           
          I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

          But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

          So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

          Regards,
          Roy Morien


          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
          Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework


           
          Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

          I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

          Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

          Thanks,
          Venkatesh




          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          From: theropas@...
          Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

           

          Hi Rafael,
           
          It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
           
          Good luck,
           
          Steve
          Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

           
          Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
          The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

          The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

          Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

          It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
          Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

          Att.

          Rafael Fuchs
          --
          rafaelfuchs@...
          +55 51 9993-8953
          http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


          On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
           
          Hi Rafael,

          nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

          Heitor


          On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
           
          Hi Venkatesh

          I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
          All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

          We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

          So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

          After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

          Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
          It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

          Att.

          Rafael Fuchs
          --
          rafaelfuchs@...
          +55 51 9993-8953
          http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



          On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
           
          Dear All,

          I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

          To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

          Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

          I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

          Thanks in advance.

          Thanks & Regards
          Venkatesh












        • Hariprakash Agrawal
          I would try to highlight some points on enthusiastic trained persons. I am NOT pin-pointing on anyone. In fact, I have also made similar mistakes and what I am
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 6, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            I would try to highlight some points on enthusiastic trained persons. I am NOT pin-pointing on anyone. In fact, I have also made similar mistakes and what I am writing below is learning's from those.

            In my view, CSM teaches what is Scrum, not how to change from existing way of working. Change is gradual process and it requires some personal traits.

            I kind of see a trend where organization nominates one senior person out of 4-5 for a particular training and thinks that this privileged person will be able to replicate the learning to rest of the crew. It does not happen because of many reasons:

            1. Trained person does not get 2 days for training others, like, Scrum training takes 2 days to convince on some of the myths.
            2. Every one other than trained person thinks that they know already and they have few gaps which JUST needs to be fixed. Some people are not even ready to listen new ideas.
            3. Trained person might not be great communicator and cannot influence others however he/she is very much convinced that he/she is right.
            4. Trained person might not understand bigger picture of organization and some personal traits of senior mgmt to influence them and make that change happen.
            5. At times, Trained person starts thinking that he is superior than others and this reflects in the way, they talk/walk. Rest of the individuals become less receptive due to that.
            6. Senior mgmt themselves does not attend such training programs and they only nominate which is another bottleneck for change.

            In nutshell, I am trying to say that enthusiasm alone does not make things happen. It is not about Scrum but it is about change management. Methodology is less important here because each method leads to some or other improvement. At times, It is the influence one carry which changes the way of working.

            I hope that I am not alienating anyone with above thoughts.

            --
            Regards,
            Hariprakash Agrawal (Hari),
            http://opcord.com - OpCord provides services in the areas of Manual / Automated Testing using QTP, Selenium, JUnit, AutoIT, Sahi, NUnit, VB/Java Script etc and Consulting / Trainings on Agile, CMMi, Six Sigma, Project Management, Software Engineering etc.
            About me: http://www.linkedin.com/in/hariprakash

            On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
             

            I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then everything should be fine. The problem would be if that same management tried to prevent you from working that way, which, if they have any sense at all, they will judge by your results. So everything should be A-OK.

            Unfortunately, I have had the experience, albeit not in software development, of a manager imposing 'his' way. He saw objections from me as an attempt to undermine his authority, and it caused friction. Even more unfortunately, I was right which he had to admit to some time later. This exacerbated the bad relationship between us. His parting comment to me was 'you have won a victory' as I left his office after being told of his change of decision.

            Managers usually feel that they MUST be right. That's ok if they are right right, but can cause a lot of tension if they are wrong right.

            Regards,
            Roy Morien

            ps: I even had one manager who quoted biblical scripture to me to prove his rightness as a manager.


            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            From: rafaelfuchs@...
            Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:34:28 -0300

            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

             
            My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems.
            They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed.
            But they wanted to be aware on how we were working.

            It's important considering this when changing the process the way I did.


            Att.

            Rafael Fuchs
            --
            rafaelfuchs@...
            +55 51 9993-8953
            http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


            On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 02:26, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
             
            I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

            But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

            So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

            Regards,
            Roy Morien


            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
            Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework


             
            Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

            I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

            Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

            Thanks,
            Venkatesh




            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            From: theropas@...
            Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

             

            Hi Rafael,
             
            It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
             
            Good luck,
             
            Steve
            Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

             
            Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
            The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

            The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

            Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

            It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
            Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

            Att.

            Rafael Fuchs
            --
            rafaelfuchs@...
            +55 51 9993-8953
            http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


            On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
             
            Hi Rafael,

            nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

            Heitor


            On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
             
            Hi Venkatesh

            I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
            All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

            We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

            So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

            After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

            Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
            It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

            Att.

            Rafael Fuchs
            --
            rafaelfuchs@...
            +55 51 9993-8953
            http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



            On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
             
            Dear All,

            I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

            To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

            Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

            I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

            Thanks in advance.

            Thanks & Regards
            Venkatesh















          • Steve Ropa
            Hi Roy, Unfortunately, it seems to be a downward spiral. A lot of managers feel they MUST be right because they are judged on whether they are right most or
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 7, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Roy,
              Unfortunately, it seems to be a downward spiral.  A lot of managers feel they MUST be right because they are judged on whether they are right most or all of the time.  I have even been in the situation where my VP told me I can't have the respect of the team if I admit my errors.  I personally can't work that way, so I ended up working somewhere else.  I am *dying* to know the biblical scripture that makes a manager always right though!
               
              Steve
               
              Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 8:59 PM
              Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

               

              I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then everything should be fine. The problem would be if that same management tried to prevent you from working that way, which, if they have any sense at all, they will judge by your results. So everything should be A-OK.

              Unfortunately, I have had the experience, albeit not in software development, of a manager imposing 'his' way. He saw objections from me as an attempt to undermine his authority, and it caused friction. Even more unfortunately, I was right which he had to admit to some time later. This exacerbated the bad relationship between us. His parting comment to me was 'you have won a victory' as I left his office after being told of his change of decision.

              Managers usually feel that they MUST be right. That's ok if they are right right, but can cause a lot of tension if they are wrong right.

              Regards,
              Roy Morien

              ps: I even had one manager who quoted biblical scripture to me to prove his rightness as a manager.


              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              From: rafaelfuchs@...
              Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:34:28 -0300
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

               
              My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems.
              They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed.
              But they wanted to be aware on how we were working.

              It's important considering this when changing the process the way I did.


              Att.

              Rafael Fuchs
              --
              rafaelfuchs@...
              +55 51 9993-8953
              http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


              On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 02:26, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
               
              I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

              But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

              So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

              Regards,
              Roy Morien


              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
              Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
              Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework


               
              Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

              I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

              Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

              Thanks,
              Venkatesh




              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              From: theropas@...
              Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

               

              Hi Rafael,
               
              It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
               
              Good luck,
               
              Steve
              Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

               
              Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
              The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

              The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

              Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

              It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
              Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

              Att.

              Rafael Fuchs
              --
              rafaelfuchs@...
              +55 51 9993-8953
              http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


              On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
               
              Hi Rafael,

              nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

              Heitor


              On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
               
              Hi Venkatesh

              I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
              All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

              We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

              So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

              After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

              Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
              It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

              Att.

              Rafael Fuchs
              --
              rafaelfuchs@...
              +55 51 9993-8953
              http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



              On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
               
              Dear All,

              I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

              To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

              Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

              I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

              Thanks in advance.

              Thanks & Regards
              Venkatesh












            • Roy Morien
              Well, as I recall, one was about the master/ servant relationship, where the master was entitled to be obeyed by the servant. I must admit that I can t chant
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 7, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Well, as I recall, one was about the master/ servant relationship, where the master was entitled to be obeyed by the servant. I must admit that I can't chant chapter and verse, but he was able to. It was the closest thing to the Divine Right of Managers that I have ever encountered. And it was 20 years ago (OMG, really???) so the details are unclear ... I just have this awful memory in general.

                Regards,
                Roy Morien


                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                From: theropas@...
                Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 09:28:17 -0600
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                 

                Hi Roy,
                Unfortunately, it seems to be a downward spiral.  A lot of managers feel they MUST be right because they are judged on whether they are right most or all of the time.  I have even been in the situation where my VP told me I can't have the respect of the team if I admit my errors.  I personally can't work that way, so I ended up working somewhere else.  I am *dying* to know the biblical scripture that makes a manager always right though!
                 
                Steve
                 
                Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 8:59 PM
                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                 
                I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then everything should be fine. The problem would be if that same management tried to prevent you from working that way, which, if they have any sense at all, they will judge by your results. So everything should be A-OK.

                Unfortunately, I have had the experience, albeit not in software development, of a manager imposing 'his' way. He saw objections from me as an attempt to undermine his authority, and it caused friction. Even more unfortunately, I was right which he had to admit to some time later. This exacerbated the bad relationship between us. His parting comment to me was 'you have won a victory' as I left his office after being told of his change of decision.

                Managers usually feel that they MUST be right. That's ok if they are right right, but can cause a lot of tension if they are wrong right.

                Regards,
                Roy Morien

                ps: I even had one manager who quoted biblical scripture to me to prove his rightness as a manager.



                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                From: rafaelfuchs@...
                Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:34:28 -0300
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                 
                My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems.
                They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed.
                But they wanted to be aware on how we were working.

                It's important considering this when changing the process the way I did.


                Att.

                Rafael Fuchs
                --
                rafaelfuchs@...
                +55 51 9993-8953
                http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 02:26, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                 
                I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

                But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

                So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

                Regards,
                Roy Morien


                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
                Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework


                 
                Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

                I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

                Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

                Thanks,
                Venkatesh




                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                From: theropas@...
                Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                 

                Hi Rafael,
                 
                It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
                 
                Good luck,
                 
                Steve
                Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                 
                Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
                The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

                The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

                Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

                It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
                Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

                Att.

                Rafael Fuchs
                --
                rafaelfuchs@...
                +55 51 9993-8953
                http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
                 
                Hi Rafael,

                nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

                Heitor


                On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
                 
                Hi Venkatesh

                I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
                All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

                We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

                So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

                After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

                Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
                It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

                Att.

                Rafael Fuchs
                --
                rafaelfuchs@...
                +55 51 9993-8953
                http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



                On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
                 
                Dear All,

                I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

                To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

                Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

                I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

                Thanks in advance.

                Thanks & Regards
                Venkatesh














              • Steve Ropa
                That s hilarious. It might be fun to grab the piece of Thomas Paine s _Common Sense_ where he excoriates the divine right of kings ... nah, I don t have that
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 7, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  That's hilarious.  It might be fun to grab the piece of Thomas Paine's _Common Sense_ where he excoriates the "divine right of kings"... nah, I don't have that much free time.
                   
                   
                  Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 8:14 PM
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                   

                  Well, as I recall, one was about the master/ servant relationship, where the master was entitled to be obeyed by the servant. I must admit that I can't chant chapter and verse, but he was able to. It was the closest thing to the Divine Right of Managers that I have ever encountered. And it was 20 years ago (OMG, really???) so the details are unclear ... I just have this awful memory in general.

                  Regards,
                  Roy Morien


                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  From: theropas@...
                  Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 09:28:17 -0600
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                   

                  Hi Roy,
                  Unfortunately, it seems to be a downward spiral.  A lot of managers feel they MUST be right because they are judged on whether they are right most or all of the time.  I have even been in the situation where my VP told me I can't have the respect of the team if I admit my errors.  I personally can't work that way, so I ended up working somewhere else.  I am *dying* to know the biblical scripture that makes a manager always right though!
                   
                  Steve
                   
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 8:59 PM
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                   
                  I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then everything should be fine. The problem would be if that same management tried to prevent you from working that way, which, if they have any sense at all, they will judge by your results. So everything should be A-OK.

                  Unfortunately, I have had the experience, albeit not in software development, of a manager imposing 'his' way. He saw objections from me as an attempt to undermine his authority, and it caused friction. Even more unfortunately, I was right which he had to admit to some time later. This exacerbated the bad relationship between us. His parting comment to me was 'you have won a victory' as I left his office after being told of his change of decision.

                  Managers usually feel that they MUST be right. That's ok if they are right right, but can cause a lot of tension if they are wrong right.

                  Regards,
                  Roy Morien

                  ps: I even had one manager who quoted biblical scripture to me to prove his rightness as a manager.



                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  From: rafaelfuchs@...
                  Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:34:28 -0300
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                   
                  My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems.
                  They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed.
                  But they wanted to be aware on how we were working.

                  It's important considering this when changing the process the way I did.


                  Att.

                  Rafael Fuchs
                  --
                  rafaelfuchs@...
                  +55 51 9993-8953
                  http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                  On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 02:26, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                   
                  I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

                  But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

                  So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

                  Regards,
                  Roy Morien


                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
                  Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework


                   
                  Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

                  I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

                  Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

                  Thanks,
                  Venkatesh




                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  From: theropas@...
                  Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                   

                  Hi Rafael,
                   
                  It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
                   
                  Good luck,
                   
                  Steve
                  Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                   
                  Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
                  The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

                  The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

                  Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

                  It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
                  Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

                  Att.

                  Rafael Fuchs
                  --
                  rafaelfuchs@...
                  +55 51 9993-8953
                  http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                  On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
                   
                  Hi Rafael,

                  nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

                  Heitor


                  On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
                   
                  Hi Venkatesh

                  I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
                  All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

                  We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

                  So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

                  After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

                  Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
                  It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

                  Att.

                  Rafael Fuchs
                  --
                  rafaelfuchs@...
                  +55 51 9993-8953
                  http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



                  On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
                   
                  Dear All,

                  I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

                  To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

                  Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

                  I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

                  Thanks in advance.

                  Thanks & Regards
                  Venkatesh














                • srinivas chillara
                  Hello Hari, I agree, with almost all that you said,....what also needs to be said, is that the organisation needs to understrand that Scrum is a radically
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 8, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Hari,
                    I agree, with almost all that you said,....what also needs to be said, is that the organisation needs to understrand that Scrum is a radically different manner of working and executing not only projects, but also how the entire organisation functions, with a different management style.
                    cheers
                    srinivas

                    --- On Thu, 7/10/10, Hariprakash Agrawal <haricha@...> wrote:

                    From: Hariprakash Agrawal <haricha@...>
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, 7 October, 2010, 12:26 PM

                     

                    I would try to highlight some points on enthusiastic trained persons. I am NOT pin-pointing on anyone. In fact, I have also made similar mistakes and what I am writing below is learning's from those.

                    In my view, CSM teaches what is Scrum, not how to change from existing way of working. Change is gradual process and it requires some personal traits.

                    I kind of see a trend where organization nominates one senior person out of 4-5 for a particular training and thinks that this privileged person will be able to replicate the learning to rest of the crew. It does not happen because of many reasons:

                    1. Trained person does not get 2 days for training others, like, Scrum training takes 2 days to convince on some of the myths.
                    2. Every one other than trained person thinks that they know already and they have few gaps which JUST needs to be fixed. Some people are not even ready to listen new ideas.
                    3. Trained person might not be great communicator and cannot influence others however he/she is very much convinced that he/she is right.
                    4. Trained person might not understand bigger picture of organization and some personal traits of senior mgmt to influence them and make that change happen.
                    5. At times, Trained person starts thinking that he is superior than others and this reflects in the way, they talk/walk. Rest of the individuals become less receptive due to that.
                    6. Senior mgmt themselves does not attend such training programs and they only nominate which is another bottleneck for change.

                    In nutshell, I am trying to say that enthusiasm alone does not make things happen. It is not about Scrum but it is about change management. Methodology is less important here because each method leads to some or other improvement. At times, It is the influence one carry which changes the way of working.

                    I hope that I am not alienating anyone with above thoughts.

                    --
                    Regards,
                    Hariprakash Agrawal (Hari),
                    http://opcord.com - OpCord provides services in the areas of Manual / Automated Testing using QTP, Selenium, JUnit, AutoIT, Sahi, NUnit, VB/Java Script etc and Consulting / Trainings on Agile, CMMi, Six Sigma, Project Management, Software Engineering etc.
                    About me: http://www.linkedin.com/in/hariprakash

                    On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                     

                    I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then everything should be fine. The problem would be if that same management tried to prevent you from working that way, which, if they have any sense at all, they will judge by your results. So everything should be A-OK.

                    Unfortunately, I have had the experience, albeit not in software development, of a manager imposing 'his' way. He saw objections from me as an attempt to undermine his authority, and it caused friction. Even more unfortunately, I was right which he had to admit to some time later. This exacerbated the bad relationship between us. His parting comment to me was 'you have won a victory' as I left his office after being told of his change of decision.

                    Managers usually feel that they MUST be right. That's ok if they are right right, but can cause a lot of tension if they are wrong right.

                    Regards,
                    Roy Morien

                    ps: I even had one manager who quoted biblical scripture to me to prove his rightness as a manager.


                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    From: rafaelfuchs@...
                    Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:34:28 -0300

                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                     
                    My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems.
                    They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed.
                    But they wanted to be aware on how we were working.

                    It's important considering this when changing the process the way I did.


                    Att.

                    Rafael Fuchs
                    --
                    rafaelfuchs@...
                    +55 51 9993-8953
                    http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                    On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 02:26, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                     
                    I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

                    But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

                    So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

                    Regards,
                    Roy Morien


                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
                    Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework


                     
                    Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

                    I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

                    Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

                    Thanks,
                    Venkatesh




                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    From: theropas@...
                    Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                     

                    Hi Rafael,
                     
                    It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
                     
                    Good luck,
                     
                    Steve
                    Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                     
                    Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
                    The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

                    The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

                    Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

                    It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
                    Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

                    Att.

                    Rafael Fuchs
                    --
                    rafaelfuchs@...
                    +55 51 9993-8953
                    http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                    On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
                     
                    Hi Rafael,

                    nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

                    Heitor


                    On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
                     
                    Hi Venkatesh

                    I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
                    All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

                    We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

                    So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

                    After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

                    Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
                    It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

                    Att.

                    Rafael Fuchs
                    --
                    rafaelfuchs@...
                    +55 51 9993-8953
                    http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



                    On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
                     
                    Dear All,

                    I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

                    To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

                    Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

                    I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

                    Thanks in advance.

                    Thanks & Regards
                    Venkatesh
















                  • Rafael Fuchs
                    One very important point is that Scrum is not related only to a process or framework. The main goal is to change to Agile, using Scrum as the process/framework
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 8, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      One very important point is that Scrum is not related only to a process or framework.

                      The main goal is to change to Agile, using Scrum as the process/framework to guide us through the ceremonies, the artifacts and so on.

                      And Agile is not only new activities we must follow to be doing this process or that process.
                      Agile is a culture that differs from the more "traditional" cultures in software development.

                      Change a culture is pretty much hard to do then changing the way we work.
                      People must understand and adopt this new culture to the change be successful.
                      I think this is the hardest change to do. The culture of Agile. This is what hurts more in the managers feelings.

                      We use the Scrum concepts and way of working to do this change. It's OK to me, that's a good way, but we can't forget the values on the Agile Manifesto and the change in the way of thinking.

                      Att.

                      Rafael Fuchs
                      --
                      rafaelfuchs@...
                      +55 51 9993-8953
                      http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                      On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 05:20, srinivas chillara <ceezone@...> wrote:
                       

                      Hello Hari,
                      I agree, with almost all that you said,....what also needs to be said, is that the organisation needs to understrand that Scrum is a radically different manner of working and executing not only projects, but also how the entire organisation functions, with a different management style.
                      cheers
                      srinivas

                      --- On Thu, 7/10/10, Hariprakash Agrawal <haricha@...> wrote:

                      From: Hariprakash Agrawal <haricha@...>

                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Thursday, 7 October, 2010, 12:26 PM


                       

                      I would try to highlight some points on enthusiastic trained persons. I am NOT pin-pointing on anyone. In fact, I have also made similar mistakes and what I am writing below is learning's from those.

                      In my view, CSM teaches what is Scrum, not how to change from existing way of working. Change is gradual process and it requires some personal traits.

                      I kind of see a trend where organization nominates one senior person out of 4-5 for a particular training and thinks that this privileged person will be able to replicate the learning to rest of the crew. It does not happen because of many reasons:

                      1. Trained person does not get 2 days for training others, like, Scrum training takes 2 days to convince on some of the myths.
                      2. Every one other than trained person thinks that they know already and they have few gaps which JUST needs to be fixed. Some people are not even ready to listen new ideas.
                      3. Trained person might not be great communicator and cannot influence others however he/she is very much convinced that he/she is right.
                      4. Trained person might not understand bigger picture of organization and some personal traits of senior mgmt to influence them and make that change happen.
                      5. At times, Trained person starts thinking that he is superior than others and this reflects in the way, they talk/walk. Rest of the individuals become less receptive due to that.
                      6. Senior mgmt themselves does not attend such training programs and they only nominate which is another bottleneck for change.

                      In nutshell, I am trying to say that enthusiasm alone does not make things happen. It is not about Scrum but it is about change management. Methodology is less important here because each method leads to some or other improvement. At times, It is the influence one carry which changes the way of working.

                      I hope that I am not alienating anyone with above thoughts.

                      --
                      Regards,
                      Hariprakash Agrawal (Hari),
                      http://opcord.com - OpCord provides services in the areas of Manual / Automated Testing using QTP, Selenium, JUnit, AutoIT, Sahi, NUnit, VB/Java Script etc and Consulting / Trainings on Agile, CMMi, Six Sigma, Project Management, Software Engineering etc.
                      About me: http://www.linkedin.com/in/hariprakash

                      On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                       

                      I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then everything should be fine. The problem would be if that same management tried to prevent you from working that way, which, if they have any sense at all, they will judge by your results. So everything should be A-OK.

                      Unfortunately, I have had the experience, albeit not in software development, of a manager imposing 'his' way. He saw objections from me as an attempt to undermine his authority, and it caused friction. Even more unfortunately, I was right which he had to admit to some time later. This exacerbated the bad relationship between us. His parting comment to me was 'you have won a victory' as I left his office after being told of his change of decision.

                      Managers usually feel that they MUST be right. That's ok if they are right right, but can cause a lot of tension if they are wrong right.

                      Regards,
                      Roy Morien

                      ps: I even had one manager who quoted biblical scripture to me to prove his rightness as a manager.


                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      From: rafaelfuchs@...
                      Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:34:28 -0300

                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                       
                      My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems.
                      They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed.
                      But they wanted to be aware on how we were working.

                      It's important considering this when changing the process the way I did.


                      Att.

                      Rafael Fuchs
                      --
                      rafaelfuchs@...
                      +55 51 9993-8953
                      http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                      On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 02:26, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                       
                      I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

                      But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

                      So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

                      Regards,
                      Roy Morien


                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
                      Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
                      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework


                       
                      Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

                      I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

                      Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

                      Thanks,
                      Venkatesh




                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      From: theropas@...
                      Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                       

                      Hi Rafael,
                       
                      It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
                       
                      Good luck,
                       
                      Steve
                      Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                       
                      Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
                      The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

                      The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

                      Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

                      It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
                      Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

                      Att.

                      Rafael Fuchs
                      --
                      rafaelfuchs@...
                      +55 51 9993-8953
                      http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                      On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
                       
                      Hi Rafael,

                      nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

                      Heitor


                      On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
                       
                      Hi Venkatesh

                      I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
                      All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

                      We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

                      So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

                      After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

                      Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
                      It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

                      Att.

                      Rafael Fuchs
                      --
                      rafaelfuchs@...
                      +55 51 9993-8953
                      http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



                      On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
                       
                      Dear All,

                      I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

                      To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

                      Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

                      I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

                      Thanks in advance.

                      Thanks & Regards
                      Venkatesh

















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