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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

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  • Steve Ropa
    Hi Rafael, It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers approval. I worry a lot about an organization that needs
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 5, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Rafael,
       
      It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
       
      Good luck,
       
      Steve
      Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

       

      Yes, it was very nice to implement! 

      The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

      The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

      Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

      It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
      Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

      Att.

      Rafael Fuchs
      --
      rafaelfuchs@...
      +55 51 9993-8953
      http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


      On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
       

      Hi Rafael,


      nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

      Heitor


      On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
       

      Hi Venkatesh


      I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
      All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

      We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

      So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

      After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

      Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
      It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

      Att.

      Rafael Fuchs
      --
      rafaelfuchs@...
      +55 51 9993-8953
      http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



      On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
       

      Dear All,

      I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

      To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

      Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

      I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

      Thanks in advance.

      Thanks & Regards
      Venkatesh




    • JackM
      The best thing to do is to send your director the link to a great video. There is one that Ken Schwabber gave to google. It s on google tech talk at
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 5, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        The best thing to do is to send your director the link to a great video. There is one that Ken Schwabber gave to google. It's on google tech talk at

        http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7230144396191025011#

        I always find that it becomes more compelling when the message is delivered by one of the Agile greats.

        Hope this helps
        Jack
        www.agilebuddy.com
        blog.agilebuddy.com

        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Dear All,
        >
        > I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.
        >
        > To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.
        >
        > Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.
        >
        > I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.
        >
        > Thanks in advance.
        >
        > Thanks & Regards
        > Venkatesh
        >
      • Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan
        Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing. I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 5, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

          I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

          Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

          Thanks,
          Venkatesh



          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          From: theropas@...
          Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

           

          Hi Rafael,
           
          It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
           
          Good luck,
           
          Steve
          Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

           
          Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
          The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

          The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

          Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

          It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
          Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

          Att.

          Rafael Fuchs
          --
          rafaelfuchs@...
          +55 51 9993-8953
          http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


          On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
           
          Hi Rafael,

          nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

          Heitor


          On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
           
          Hi Venkatesh

          I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
          All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

          We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

          So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

          After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

          Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
          It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

          Att.

          Rafael Fuchs
          --
          rafaelfuchs@...
          +55 51 9993-8953
          http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



          On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
           
          Dear All,

          I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

          To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

          Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

          I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

          Thanks in advance.

          Thanks & Regards
          Venkatesh








        • Roy Morien
          I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 5, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

            But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

            So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

            Regards,
            Roy Morien

            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
            Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

             
            Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

            I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

            Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

            Thanks,
            Venkatesh




            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            From: theropas@...
            Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

             

            Hi Rafael,
             
            It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
             
            Good luck,
             
            Steve
            Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

             
            Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
            The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

            The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

            Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

            It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
            Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

            Att.

            Rafael Fuchs
            --
            rafaelfuchs@...
            +55 51 9993-8953
            http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


            On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
             
            Hi Rafael,

            nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

            Heitor


            On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
             
            Hi Venkatesh

            I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
            All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

            We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

            So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

            After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

            Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
            It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

            Att.

            Rafael Fuchs
            --
            rafaelfuchs@...
            +55 51 9993-8953
            http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



            On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
             
            Dear All,

            I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

            To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

            Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

            I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

            Thanks in advance.

            Thanks & Regards
            Venkatesh









          • Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan
            The management I was talking about is my Director of Engineering who is responsible for directing us in software development. We are product based company
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 5, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              The management I was talking about is my Director of Engineering who is responsible for directing us in software development. We are product based company developing a product in a particular domain. He is specialized in our domain and the development. He is the one who choose the sprint backlog items from product backlog but he does not know anything about Scrum. He is not interested in changing the current methodology (Regular SDLC model).

              But I, as a lead I am interested in doing with scrum. I have knowledge on scrum. I am handling and managing the development team. Hope I explained my development environment situation.

              Regards,
              Venkatesh


              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              From: roymorien@...
              Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 05:26:38 +0000
              Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

               
              I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

              But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

              So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

              Regards,
              Roy Morien


              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
              Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
              Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

               
              Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

              I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

              Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

              Thanks,
              Venkatesh




              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              From: theropas@...
              Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

               

              Hi Rafael,
               
              It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
               
              Good luck,
               
              Steve
              Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

               
              Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
              The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

              The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

              Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

              It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
              Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

              Att.

              Rafael Fuchs
              --
              rafaelfuchs@...
              +55 51 9993-8953
              http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


              On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
               
              Hi Rafael,

              nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

              Heitor


              On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
               
              Hi Venkatesh

              I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
              All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

              We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

              So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

              After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

              Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
              It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

              Att.

              Rafael Fuchs
              --
              rafaelfuchs@...
              +55 51 9993-8953
              http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



              On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
               
              Dear All,

              I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

              To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

              Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

              I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

              Thanks in advance.

              Thanks & Regards
              Venkatesh










            • Roy Morien
              Then I guess it all depends on how the Director of Engineering will react if you start moving to Scrum practices. Will he react positively or negatively? It
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 5, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Then I guess it all depends on how the Director of Engineering will react if you start moving to Scrum practices.  Will he react positively or negatively? It all hangs on him, given he apparently has the authority to dictate how you develop.

                Regards,
                Roy Morien


                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
                Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 11:40:41 +0530
                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                 
                The management I was talking about is my Director of Engineering who is responsible for directing us in software development. We are product based company developing a product in a particular domain. He is specialized in our domain and the development. He is the one who choose the sprint backlog items from product backlog but he does not know anything about Scrum. He is not interested in changing the current methodology (Regular SDLC model).

                But I, as a lead I am interested in doing with scrum. I have knowledge on scrum. I am handling and managing the development team. Hope I explained my development environment situation.

                Regards,
                Venkatesh



                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                From: roymorien@...
                Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 05:26:38 +0000
                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                 
                I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

                But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

                So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

                Regards,
                Roy Morien


                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
                Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                 
                Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

                I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

                Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

                Thanks,
                Venkatesh




                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                From: theropas@...
                Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                 

                Hi Rafael,
                 
                It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
                 
                Good luck,
                 
                Steve
                Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                 
                Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
                The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

                The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

                Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

                It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
                Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

                Att.

                Rafael Fuchs
                --
                rafaelfuchs@...
                +55 51 9993-8953
                http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
                 
                Hi Rafael,

                nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

                Heitor


                On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
                 
                Hi Venkatesh

                I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
                All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

                We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

                So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

                After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

                Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
                It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

                Att.

                Rafael Fuchs
                --
                rafaelfuchs@...
                +55 51 9993-8953
                http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



                On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
                 
                Dear All,

                I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

                To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

                Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

                I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

                Thanks in advance.

                Thanks & Regards
                Venkatesh











              • Rafael Fuchs
                My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems. They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed. But
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 6, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems.
                  They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed.
                  But they wanted to be aware on how we were working.

                  It's important considering this when changing the process the way I did.


                  Att.

                  Rafael Fuchs
                  --
                  rafaelfuchs@...
                  +55 51 9993-8953
                  http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                  On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 02:26, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                   

                  I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

                  But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

                  So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

                  Regards,
                  Roy Morien


                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
                  Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework


                   
                  Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

                  I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

                  Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

                  Thanks,
                  Venkatesh




                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  From: theropas@...
                  Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                   

                  Hi Rafael,
                   
                  It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
                   
                  Good luck,
                   
                  Steve
                  Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                   
                  Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
                  The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

                  The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

                  Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

                  It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
                  Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

                  Att.

                  Rafael Fuchs
                  --
                  rafaelfuchs@...
                  +55 51 9993-8953
                  http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                  On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
                   
                  Hi Rafael,

                  nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

                  Heitor


                  On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
                   
                  Hi Venkatesh

                  I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
                  All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

                  We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

                  So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

                  After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

                  Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
                  It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

                  Att.

                  Rafael Fuchs
                  --
                  rafaelfuchs@...
                  +55 51 9993-8953
                  http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



                  On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
                   
                  Dear All,

                  I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

                  To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

                  Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

                  I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

                  Thanks in advance.

                  Thanks & Regards
                  Venkatesh










                • Rafael Fuchs
                  The manager that didn t want to change to Agile was a developer many many years ago. Nowadays we still having people that are against Agile because they think
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 6, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The manager that didn't want to change to Agile was a developer many many years ago.
                    Nowadays we still having people that are against Agile because they think Agile is related to mess.
                    And this manager thinks this way. He used to laught when trying to explain the advantages of Agile, saying "It's not gonna work... we won't throw away time with this". But our work was not good at that time. We needed a change. According to our environment, Agile was the best alternative.

                    So, I did what I did and it was fine. The environment was asking for Agile. :)
                    But they had some prejudice about this. I proved them it was the way need to go.

                    Even after I got out that company, they still doing Agile. So I think it was good not to me, but to the organization.

                    And yes... It was risky... 


                    Att.

                    Rafael Fuchs
                    --
                    rafaelfuchs@...
                    +55 51 9993-8953
                    http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                    On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 21:35, Steve Ropa <theropas@...> wrote:
                     

                    Hi Rafael,
                     
                    It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
                     
                    Good luck,
                     
                    Steve
                    Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                     

                    Yes, it was very nice to implement! 

                    The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

                    The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

                    Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

                    It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
                    Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

                    Att.

                    Rafael Fuchs
                    --
                    rafaelfuchs@...
                    +55 51 9993-8953
                    http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                    On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
                     

                    Hi Rafael,


                    nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

                    Heitor


                    On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
                     

                    Hi Venkatesh


                    I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
                    All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

                    We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

                    So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

                    After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

                    Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
                    It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

                    Att.

                    Rafael Fuchs
                    --
                    rafaelfuchs@...
                    +55 51 9993-8953
                    http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



                    On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
                     

                    Dear All,

                    I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

                    To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

                    Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

                    I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

                    Thanks in advance.

                    Thanks & Regards
                    Venkatesh





                  • Mark Levison
                    Venkatesh - as Alan said earlier you Director of Engineering couldn t care less about change. He wants quality software delivered on a regular basis. This is a
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 6, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Venkatesh - as Alan said earlier you Director of Engineering couldn't care less about change. He wants quality software delivered on a regular basis. This is a frequent problem in the community. My mantra: Selling Agile? Don't Sell Listen. Your Director has problems and pain, the question is what are they? Isn't of telling someone in position of power what you want, find out what they need. It nearly always boils down to "Better Quality", "Faster Time to Market". If you're lucky its both. Instead promoting a full blown methodology change offer something small to help make either one of these marginally better. We're not looking for solving the whole problem here, just a small win. You and your team need to demonstrate over the course of a few weeks that you can make things a bit better. Every time you do this you will build a bit more trust and the freedom to do more the next time. Eventually you will gain the freedom to make a more complete transition.

                      The key: Ask your Director what they care about, Listen, Listen, Listen. Focus on delivering what they value. Eventually your values will line up.


                      Blog | Twitter | Office: (613) 862-2538

                    • Michael James
                      ... Good video. --mj
                      Message 10 of 24 , Oct 6, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Oct 5, 2010, at 6:13 PM, JackM wrote:

                        > The best thing to do is to send your director the link to a great video. There is one that Ken Schwabber gave to google. It's on google tech talk at
                        >
                        > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7230144396191025011#

                        Good video.
                        --mj
                      • Roy Morien
                        I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then
                        Message 11 of 24 , Oct 6, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then everything should be fine. The problem would be if that same management tried to prevent you from working that way, which, if they have any sense at all, they will judge by your results. So everything should be A-OK.

                          Unfortunately, I have had the experience, albeit not in software development, of a manager imposing 'his' way. He saw objections from me as an attempt to undermine his authority, and it caused friction. Even more unfortunately, I was right which he had to admit to some time later. This exacerbated the bad relationship between us. His parting comment to me was 'you have won a victory' as I left his office after being told of his change of decision.

                          Managers usually feel that they MUST be right. That's ok if they are right right, but can cause a lot of tension if they are wrong right.

                          Regards,
                          Roy Morien

                          ps: I even had one manager who quoted biblical scripture to me to prove his rightness as a manager.


                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          From: rafaelfuchs@...
                          Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:34:28 -0300
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                           
                          My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems.
                          They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed.
                          But they wanted to be aware on how we were working.

                          It's important considering this when changing the process the way I did.


                          Att.

                          Rafael Fuchs
                          --
                          rafaelfuchs@...
                          +55 51 9993-8953
                          http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                          On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 02:26, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                           
                          I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

                          But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

                          So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

                          Regards,
                          Roy Morien


                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
                          Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
                          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework


                           
                          Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

                          I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

                          Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

                          Thanks,
                          Venkatesh




                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          From: theropas@...
                          Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                           

                          Hi Rafael,
                           
                          It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
                           
                          Good luck,
                           
                          Steve
                          Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                           
                          Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
                          The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

                          The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

                          Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

                          It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
                          Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

                          Att.

                          Rafael Fuchs
                          --
                          rafaelfuchs@...
                          +55 51 9993-8953
                          http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                          On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
                           
                          Hi Rafael,

                          nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

                          Heitor


                          On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
                           
                          Hi Venkatesh

                          I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
                          All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

                          We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

                          So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

                          After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

                          Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
                          It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

                          Att.

                          Rafael Fuchs
                          --
                          rafaelfuchs@...
                          +55 51 9993-8953
                          http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



                          On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
                           
                          Dear All,

                          I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

                          To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

                          Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

                          I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

                          Thanks in advance.

                          Thanks & Regards
                          Venkatesh












                        • Hariprakash Agrawal
                          I would try to highlight some points on enthusiastic trained persons. I am NOT pin-pointing on anyone. In fact, I have also made similar mistakes and what I am
                          Message 12 of 24 , Oct 6, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I would try to highlight some points on enthusiastic trained persons. I am NOT pin-pointing on anyone. In fact, I have also made similar mistakes and what I am writing below is learning's from those.

                            In my view, CSM teaches what is Scrum, not how to change from existing way of working. Change is gradual process and it requires some personal traits.

                            I kind of see a trend where organization nominates one senior person out of 4-5 for a particular training and thinks that this privileged person will be able to replicate the learning to rest of the crew. It does not happen because of many reasons:

                            1. Trained person does not get 2 days for training others, like, Scrum training takes 2 days to convince on some of the myths.
                            2. Every one other than trained person thinks that they know already and they have few gaps which JUST needs to be fixed. Some people are not even ready to listen new ideas.
                            3. Trained person might not be great communicator and cannot influence others however he/she is very much convinced that he/she is right.
                            4. Trained person might not understand bigger picture of organization and some personal traits of senior mgmt to influence them and make that change happen.
                            5. At times, Trained person starts thinking that he is superior than others and this reflects in the way, they talk/walk. Rest of the individuals become less receptive due to that.
                            6. Senior mgmt themselves does not attend such training programs and they only nominate which is another bottleneck for change.

                            In nutshell, I am trying to say that enthusiasm alone does not make things happen. It is not about Scrum but it is about change management. Methodology is less important here because each method leads to some or other improvement. At times, It is the influence one carry which changes the way of working.

                            I hope that I am not alienating anyone with above thoughts.

                            --
                            Regards,
                            Hariprakash Agrawal (Hari),
                            http://opcord.com - OpCord provides services in the areas of Manual / Automated Testing using QTP, Selenium, JUnit, AutoIT, Sahi, NUnit, VB/Java Script etc and Consulting / Trainings on Agile, CMMi, Six Sigma, Project Management, Software Engineering etc.
                            About me: http://www.linkedin.com/in/hariprakash

                            On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                             

                            I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then everything should be fine. The problem would be if that same management tried to prevent you from working that way, which, if they have any sense at all, they will judge by your results. So everything should be A-OK.

                            Unfortunately, I have had the experience, albeit not in software development, of a manager imposing 'his' way. He saw objections from me as an attempt to undermine his authority, and it caused friction. Even more unfortunately, I was right which he had to admit to some time later. This exacerbated the bad relationship between us. His parting comment to me was 'you have won a victory' as I left his office after being told of his change of decision.

                            Managers usually feel that they MUST be right. That's ok if they are right right, but can cause a lot of tension if they are wrong right.

                            Regards,
                            Roy Morien

                            ps: I even had one manager who quoted biblical scripture to me to prove his rightness as a manager.


                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            From: rafaelfuchs@...
                            Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:34:28 -0300

                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                             
                            My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems.
                            They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed.
                            But they wanted to be aware on how we were working.

                            It's important considering this when changing the process the way I did.


                            Att.

                            Rafael Fuchs
                            --
                            rafaelfuchs@...
                            +55 51 9993-8953
                            http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                            On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 02:26, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                             
                            I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

                            But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

                            So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

                            Regards,
                            Roy Morien


                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
                            Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
                            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework


                             
                            Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

                            I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

                            Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

                            Thanks,
                            Venkatesh




                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            From: theropas@...
                            Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                             

                            Hi Rafael,
                             
                            It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
                             
                            Good luck,
                             
                            Steve
                            Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                             
                            Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
                            The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

                            The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

                            Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

                            It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
                            Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

                            Att.

                            Rafael Fuchs
                            --
                            rafaelfuchs@...
                            +55 51 9993-8953
                            http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                            On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
                             
                            Hi Rafael,

                            nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

                            Heitor


                            On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
                             
                            Hi Venkatesh

                            I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
                            All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

                            We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

                            So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

                            After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

                            Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
                            It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

                            Att.

                            Rafael Fuchs
                            --
                            rafaelfuchs@...
                            +55 51 9993-8953
                            http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



                            On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
                             
                            Dear All,

                            I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

                            To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

                            Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

                            I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

                            Thanks in advance.

                            Thanks & Regards
                            Venkatesh















                          • Steve Ropa
                            Hi Roy, Unfortunately, it seems to be a downward spiral. A lot of managers feel they MUST be right because they are judged on whether they are right most or
                            Message 13 of 24 , Oct 7, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Roy,
                              Unfortunately, it seems to be a downward spiral.  A lot of managers feel they MUST be right because they are judged on whether they are right most or all of the time.  I have even been in the situation where my VP told me I can't have the respect of the team if I admit my errors.  I personally can't work that way, so I ended up working somewhere else.  I am *dying* to know the biblical scripture that makes a manager always right though!
                               
                              Steve
                               
                              Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 8:59 PM
                              Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                               

                              I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then everything should be fine. The problem would be if that same management tried to prevent you from working that way, which, if they have any sense at all, they will judge by your results. So everything should be A-OK.

                              Unfortunately, I have had the experience, albeit not in software development, of a manager imposing 'his' way. He saw objections from me as an attempt to undermine his authority, and it caused friction. Even more unfortunately, I was right which he had to admit to some time later. This exacerbated the bad relationship between us. His parting comment to me was 'you have won a victory' as I left his office after being told of his change of decision.

                              Managers usually feel that they MUST be right. That's ok if they are right right, but can cause a lot of tension if they are wrong right.

                              Regards,
                              Roy Morien

                              ps: I even had one manager who quoted biblical scripture to me to prove his rightness as a manager.


                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              From: rafaelfuchs@...
                              Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:34:28 -0300
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                               
                              My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems.
                              They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed.
                              But they wanted to be aware on how we were working.

                              It's important considering this when changing the process the way I did.


                              Att.

                              Rafael Fuchs
                              --
                              rafaelfuchs@...
                              +55 51 9993-8953
                              http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                              On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 02:26, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                               
                              I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

                              But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

                              So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

                              Regards,
                              Roy Morien


                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
                              Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
                              Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework


                               
                              Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

                              I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

                              Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

                              Thanks,
                              Venkatesh




                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              From: theropas@...
                              Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                               

                              Hi Rafael,
                               
                              It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
                               
                              Good luck,
                               
                              Steve
                              Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                               
                              Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
                              The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

                              The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

                              Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

                              It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
                              Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

                              Att.

                              Rafael Fuchs
                              --
                              rafaelfuchs@...
                              +55 51 9993-8953
                              http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                              On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
                               
                              Hi Rafael,

                              nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

                              Heitor


                              On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
                               
                              Hi Venkatesh

                              I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
                              All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

                              We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

                              So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

                              After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

                              Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
                              It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

                              Att.

                              Rafael Fuchs
                              --
                              rafaelfuchs@...
                              +55 51 9993-8953
                              http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



                              On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
                               
                              Dear All,

                              I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

                              To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

                              Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

                              I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

                              Thanks in advance.

                              Thanks & Regards
                              Venkatesh












                            • Roy Morien
                              Well, as I recall, one was about the master/ servant relationship, where the master was entitled to be obeyed by the servant. I must admit that I can t chant
                              Message 14 of 24 , Oct 7, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Well, as I recall, one was about the master/ servant relationship, where the master was entitled to be obeyed by the servant. I must admit that I can't chant chapter and verse, but he was able to. It was the closest thing to the Divine Right of Managers that I have ever encountered. And it was 20 years ago (OMG, really???) so the details are unclear ... I just have this awful memory in general.

                                Regards,
                                Roy Morien


                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                From: theropas@...
                                Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 09:28:17 -0600
                                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                 

                                Hi Roy,
                                Unfortunately, it seems to be a downward spiral.  A lot of managers feel they MUST be right because they are judged on whether they are right most or all of the time.  I have even been in the situation where my VP told me I can't have the respect of the team if I admit my errors.  I personally can't work that way, so I ended up working somewhere else.  I am *dying* to know the biblical scripture that makes a manager always right though!
                                 
                                Steve
                                 
                                Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 8:59 PM
                                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                 
                                I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then everything should be fine. The problem would be if that same management tried to prevent you from working that way, which, if they have any sense at all, they will judge by your results. So everything should be A-OK.

                                Unfortunately, I have had the experience, albeit not in software development, of a manager imposing 'his' way. He saw objections from me as an attempt to undermine his authority, and it caused friction. Even more unfortunately, I was right which he had to admit to some time later. This exacerbated the bad relationship between us. His parting comment to me was 'you have won a victory' as I left his office after being told of his change of decision.

                                Managers usually feel that they MUST be right. That's ok if they are right right, but can cause a lot of tension if they are wrong right.

                                Regards,
                                Roy Morien

                                ps: I even had one manager who quoted biblical scripture to me to prove his rightness as a manager.



                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                From: rafaelfuchs@...
                                Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:34:28 -0300
                                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                 
                                My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems.
                                They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed.
                                But they wanted to be aware on how we were working.

                                It's important considering this when changing the process the way I did.


                                Att.

                                Rafael Fuchs
                                --
                                rafaelfuchs@...
                                +55 51 9993-8953
                                http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                                On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 02:26, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                                 
                                I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

                                But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

                                So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

                                Regards,
                                Roy Morien


                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
                                Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
                                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework


                                 
                                Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

                                I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

                                Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

                                Thanks,
                                Venkatesh




                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                From: theropas@...
                                Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
                                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                 

                                Hi Rafael,
                                 
                                It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
                                 
                                Good luck,
                                 
                                Steve
                                Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
                                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                 
                                Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
                                The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

                                The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

                                Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

                                It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
                                Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

                                Att.

                                Rafael Fuchs
                                --
                                rafaelfuchs@...
                                +55 51 9993-8953
                                http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                                On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
                                 
                                Hi Rafael,

                                nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

                                Heitor


                                On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
                                 
                                Hi Venkatesh

                                I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
                                All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

                                We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

                                So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

                                After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

                                Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
                                It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

                                Att.

                                Rafael Fuchs
                                --
                                rafaelfuchs@...
                                +55 51 9993-8953
                                http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



                                On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
                                 
                                Dear All,

                                I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

                                To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

                                Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

                                I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

                                Thanks in advance.

                                Thanks & Regards
                                Venkatesh














                              • Steve Ropa
                                That s hilarious. It might be fun to grab the piece of Thomas Paine s _Common Sense_ where he excoriates the divine right of kings ... nah, I don t have that
                                Message 15 of 24 , Oct 7, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  That's hilarious.  It might be fun to grab the piece of Thomas Paine's _Common Sense_ where he excoriates the "divine right of kings"... nah, I don't have that much free time.
                                   
                                   
                                  Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 8:14 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                   

                                  Well, as I recall, one was about the master/ servant relationship, where the master was entitled to be obeyed by the servant. I must admit that I can't chant chapter and verse, but he was able to. It was the closest thing to the Divine Right of Managers that I have ever encountered. And it was 20 years ago (OMG, really???) so the details are unclear ... I just have this awful memory in general.

                                  Regards,
                                  Roy Morien


                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: theropas@...
                                  Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 09:28:17 -0600
                                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                   

                                  Hi Roy,
                                  Unfortunately, it seems to be a downward spiral.  A lot of managers feel they MUST be right because they are judged on whether they are right most or all of the time.  I have even been in the situation where my VP told me I can't have the respect of the team if I admit my errors.  I personally can't work that way, so I ended up working somewhere else.  I am *dying* to know the biblical scripture that makes a manager always right though!
                                   
                                  Steve
                                   
                                  Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 8:59 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                   
                                  I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then everything should be fine. The problem would be if that same management tried to prevent you from working that way, which, if they have any sense at all, they will judge by your results. So everything should be A-OK.

                                  Unfortunately, I have had the experience, albeit not in software development, of a manager imposing 'his' way. He saw objections from me as an attempt to undermine his authority, and it caused friction. Even more unfortunately, I was right which he had to admit to some time later. This exacerbated the bad relationship between us. His parting comment to me was 'you have won a victory' as I left his office after being told of his change of decision.

                                  Managers usually feel that they MUST be right. That's ok if they are right right, but can cause a lot of tension if they are wrong right.

                                  Regards,
                                  Roy Morien

                                  ps: I even had one manager who quoted biblical scripture to me to prove his rightness as a manager.



                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: rafaelfuchs@...
                                  Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:34:28 -0300
                                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                   
                                  My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems.
                                  They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed.
                                  But they wanted to be aware on how we were working.

                                  It's important considering this when changing the process the way I did.


                                  Att.

                                  Rafael Fuchs
                                  --
                                  rafaelfuchs@...
                                  +55 51 9993-8953
                                  http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                                  On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 02:26, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                                   
                                  I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

                                  But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

                                  So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

                                  Regards,
                                  Roy Morien


                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
                                  Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
                                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework


                                   
                                  Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

                                  I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

                                  Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

                                  Thanks,
                                  Venkatesh




                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: theropas@...
                                  Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
                                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                   

                                  Hi Rafael,
                                   
                                  It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
                                   
                                  Good luck,
                                   
                                  Steve
                                  Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                   
                                  Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
                                  The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

                                  The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

                                  Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

                                  It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
                                  Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

                                  Att.

                                  Rafael Fuchs
                                  --
                                  rafaelfuchs@...
                                  +55 51 9993-8953
                                  http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                                  On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
                                   
                                  Hi Rafael,

                                  nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

                                  Heitor


                                  On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
                                   
                                  Hi Venkatesh

                                  I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
                                  All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

                                  We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

                                  So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

                                  After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

                                  Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
                                  It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

                                  Att.

                                  Rafael Fuchs
                                  --
                                  rafaelfuchs@...
                                  +55 51 9993-8953
                                  http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



                                  On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
                                   
                                  Dear All,

                                  I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

                                  To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

                                  Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

                                  I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

                                  Thanks in advance.

                                  Thanks & Regards
                                  Venkatesh














                                • srinivas chillara
                                  Hello Hari, I agree, with almost all that you said,....what also needs to be said, is that the organisation needs to understrand that Scrum is a radically
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Oct 8, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello Hari,
                                    I agree, with almost all that you said,....what also needs to be said, is that the organisation needs to understrand that Scrum is a radically different manner of working and executing not only projects, but also how the entire organisation functions, with a different management style.
                                    cheers
                                    srinivas

                                    --- On Thu, 7/10/10, Hariprakash Agrawal <haricha@...> wrote:

                                    From: Hariprakash Agrawal <haricha@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework
                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Thursday, 7 October, 2010, 12:26 PM

                                     

                                    I would try to highlight some points on enthusiastic trained persons. I am NOT pin-pointing on anyone. In fact, I have also made similar mistakes and what I am writing below is learning's from those.

                                    In my view, CSM teaches what is Scrum, not how to change from existing way of working. Change is gradual process and it requires some personal traits.

                                    I kind of see a trend where organization nominates one senior person out of 4-5 for a particular training and thinks that this privileged person will be able to replicate the learning to rest of the crew. It does not happen because of many reasons:

                                    1. Trained person does not get 2 days for training others, like, Scrum training takes 2 days to convince on some of the myths.
                                    2. Every one other than trained person thinks that they know already and they have few gaps which JUST needs to be fixed. Some people are not even ready to listen new ideas.
                                    3. Trained person might not be great communicator and cannot influence others however he/she is very much convinced that he/she is right.
                                    4. Trained person might not understand bigger picture of organization and some personal traits of senior mgmt to influence them and make that change happen.
                                    5. At times, Trained person starts thinking that he is superior than others and this reflects in the way, they talk/walk. Rest of the individuals become less receptive due to that.
                                    6. Senior mgmt themselves does not attend such training programs and they only nominate which is another bottleneck for change.

                                    In nutshell, I am trying to say that enthusiasm alone does not make things happen. It is not about Scrum but it is about change management. Methodology is less important here because each method leads to some or other improvement. At times, It is the influence one carry which changes the way of working.

                                    I hope that I am not alienating anyone with above thoughts.

                                    --
                                    Regards,
                                    Hariprakash Agrawal (Hari),
                                    http://opcord.com - OpCord provides services in the areas of Manual / Automated Testing using QTP, Selenium, JUnit, AutoIT, Sahi, NUnit, VB/Java Script etc and Consulting / Trainings on Agile, CMMi, Six Sigma, Project Management, Software Engineering etc.
                                    About me: http://www.linkedin.com/in/hariprakash

                                    On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then everything should be fine. The problem would be if that same management tried to prevent you from working that way, which, if they have any sense at all, they will judge by your results. So everything should be A-OK.

                                    Unfortunately, I have had the experience, albeit not in software development, of a manager imposing 'his' way. He saw objections from me as an attempt to undermine his authority, and it caused friction. Even more unfortunately, I was right which he had to admit to some time later. This exacerbated the bad relationship between us. His parting comment to me was 'you have won a victory' as I left his office after being told of his change of decision.

                                    Managers usually feel that they MUST be right. That's ok if they are right right, but can cause a lot of tension if they are wrong right.

                                    Regards,
                                    Roy Morien

                                    ps: I even had one manager who quoted biblical scripture to me to prove his rightness as a manager.


                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: rafaelfuchs@...
                                    Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:34:28 -0300

                                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                     
                                    My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems.
                                    They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed.
                                    But they wanted to be aware on how we were working.

                                    It's important considering this when changing the process the way I did.


                                    Att.

                                    Rafael Fuchs
                                    --
                                    rafaelfuchs@...
                                    +55 51 9993-8953
                                    http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                                    On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 02:26, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                                     
                                    I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

                                    But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

                                    So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

                                    Regards,
                                    Roy Morien


                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
                                    Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
                                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework


                                     
                                    Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

                                    I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

                                    Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

                                    Thanks,
                                    Venkatesh




                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: theropas@...
                                    Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
                                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                     

                                    Hi Rafael,
                                     
                                    It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
                                     
                                    Good luck,
                                     
                                    Steve
                                    Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                     
                                    Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
                                    The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

                                    The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

                                    Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

                                    It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
                                    Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

                                    Att.

                                    Rafael Fuchs
                                    --
                                    rafaelfuchs@...
                                    +55 51 9993-8953
                                    http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                                    On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
                                     
                                    Hi Rafael,

                                    nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

                                    Heitor


                                    On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
                                     
                                    Hi Venkatesh

                                    I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
                                    All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

                                    We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

                                    So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

                                    After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

                                    Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
                                    It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

                                    Att.

                                    Rafael Fuchs
                                    --
                                    rafaelfuchs@...
                                    +55 51 9993-8953
                                    http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



                                    On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
                                     
                                    Dear All,

                                    I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

                                    To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

                                    Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

                                    I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

                                    Thanks in advance.

                                    Thanks & Regards
                                    Venkatesh
















                                  • Rafael Fuchs
                                    One very important point is that Scrum is not related only to a process or framework. The main goal is to change to Agile, using Scrum as the process/framework
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Oct 8, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      One very important point is that Scrum is not related only to a process or framework.

                                      The main goal is to change to Agile, using Scrum as the process/framework to guide us through the ceremonies, the artifacts and so on.

                                      And Agile is not only new activities we must follow to be doing this process or that process.
                                      Agile is a culture that differs from the more "traditional" cultures in software development.

                                      Change a culture is pretty much hard to do then changing the way we work.
                                      People must understand and adopt this new culture to the change be successful.
                                      I think this is the hardest change to do. The culture of Agile. This is what hurts more in the managers feelings.

                                      We use the Scrum concepts and way of working to do this change. It's OK to me, that's a good way, but we can't forget the values on the Agile Manifesto and the change in the way of thinking.

                                      Att.

                                      Rafael Fuchs
                                      --
                                      rafaelfuchs@...
                                      +55 51 9993-8953
                                      http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                                      On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 05:20, srinivas chillara <ceezone@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      Hello Hari,
                                      I agree, with almost all that you said,....what also needs to be said, is that the organisation needs to understrand that Scrum is a radically different manner of working and executing not only projects, but also how the entire organisation functions, with a different management style.
                                      cheers
                                      srinivas

                                      --- On Thu, 7/10/10, Hariprakash Agrawal <haricha@...> wrote:

                                      From: Hariprakash Agrawal <haricha@...>

                                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Thursday, 7 October, 2010, 12:26 PM


                                       

                                      I would try to highlight some points on enthusiastic trained persons. I am NOT pin-pointing on anyone. In fact, I have also made similar mistakes and what I am writing below is learning's from those.

                                      In my view, CSM teaches what is Scrum, not how to change from existing way of working. Change is gradual process and it requires some personal traits.

                                      I kind of see a trend where organization nominates one senior person out of 4-5 for a particular training and thinks that this privileged person will be able to replicate the learning to rest of the crew. It does not happen because of many reasons:

                                      1. Trained person does not get 2 days for training others, like, Scrum training takes 2 days to convince on some of the myths.
                                      2. Every one other than trained person thinks that they know already and they have few gaps which JUST needs to be fixed. Some people are not even ready to listen new ideas.
                                      3. Trained person might not be great communicator and cannot influence others however he/she is very much convinced that he/she is right.
                                      4. Trained person might not understand bigger picture of organization and some personal traits of senior mgmt to influence them and make that change happen.
                                      5. At times, Trained person starts thinking that he is superior than others and this reflects in the way, they talk/walk. Rest of the individuals become less receptive due to that.
                                      6. Senior mgmt themselves does not attend such training programs and they only nominate which is another bottleneck for change.

                                      In nutshell, I am trying to say that enthusiasm alone does not make things happen. It is not about Scrum but it is about change management. Methodology is less important here because each method leads to some or other improvement. At times, It is the influence one carry which changes the way of working.

                                      I hope that I am not alienating anyone with above thoughts.

                                      --
                                      Regards,
                                      Hariprakash Agrawal (Hari),
                                      http://opcord.com - OpCord provides services in the areas of Manual / Automated Testing using QTP, Selenium, JUnit, AutoIT, Sahi, NUnit, VB/Java Script etc and Consulting / Trainings on Agile, CMMi, Six Sigma, Project Management, Software Engineering etc.
                                      About me: http://www.linkedin.com/in/hariprakash

                                      On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      I would think that it is quite reasonable for upper management to be aware of how you are working. If the way you are working is producing good results, then everything should be fine. The problem would be if that same management tried to prevent you from working that way, which, if they have any sense at all, they will judge by your results. So everything should be A-OK.

                                      Unfortunately, I have had the experience, albeit not in software development, of a manager imposing 'his' way. He saw objections from me as an attempt to undermine his authority, and it caused friction. Even more unfortunately, I was right which he had to admit to some time later. This exacerbated the bad relationship between us. His parting comment to me was 'you have won a victory' as I left his office after being told of his change of decision.

                                      Managers usually feel that they MUST be right. That's ok if they are right right, but can cause a lot of tension if they are wrong right.

                                      Regards,
                                      Roy Morien

                                      ps: I even had one manager who quoted biblical scripture to me to prove his rightness as a manager.


                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: rafaelfuchs@...
                                      Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:34:28 -0300

                                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                       
                                      My management team was not responsible for telling me how to develop systems.
                                      They just provided me the requirements and wanted it done when they needed.
                                      But they wanted to be aware on how we were working.

                                      It's important considering this when changing the process the way I did.


                                      Att.

                                      Rafael Fuchs
                                      --
                                      rafaelfuchs@...
                                      +55 51 9993-8953
                                      http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                                      On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 02:26, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                                       
                                      I would ask the question How much does the management dictate to you how you will develop systems? Also, exactly which management are you talking about? If you are talking about the IT Manager, or the CIO  with line management authority, and they are telling you how you MUST do it, then, Yes, you have a problem. It is unlikely that you can persuade them, and you must do it as they tell you to do it.

                                      But, if that 'management' is not directly responsible for system development, and have no particular authority to tell you how to behave, then do you still have a problem? Is it possible for you to change the way you develop, and then just present them with the outcomes, on a regular and frequent basis. I am sure that they would be a little surprised and puzzled at your change of tactics, but my experience is that the 'users' start to appreciate the early and frequent delivery. But you must be careful to let them know that this is an increment only, and not your version of the full system. In this case, you would start to get a lot of negative comments about how 'the system' (or 'your system') falls short of requirements. Users definitely start to appreciate the frequent opportunity to view actual progress, and to feed changes back into the development activity.

                                      So, in short, if you can, just do it, as suggested by Venkatesh.

                                      Regards,
                                      Roy Morien


                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: mvenkatesh_kumar@...
                                      Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:31:32 +0530
                                      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework


                                       
                                      Thanks Rafael. You have explained about the same situation currently I am facing.

                                      I think I should try implementing agile methodology without our managers knowing. Then I would show the difference in the delivery. That seems to be a good idea to handle these kind of people.

                                      Thanks to all who responded to this thread.

                                      Thanks,
                                      Venkatesh




                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: theropas@...
                                      Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:27 -0600
                                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                       

                                      Hi Rafael,
                                       
                                      It looks like you did a pretty darned good job moving to agile even without the managers' approval.  I worry a lot about an organization that needs to resort to "hidden baby steps" and other well intentioned dishonesties though.  I think you will find that your management team has much bigger issues than unwillingness to move to Agile, and they will find a way to self destruct, or at least to hamper a lot of the good progress you have made. 
                                       
                                      Good luck,
                                       
                                      Steve
                                      Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:44 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Difficulties in convincing the management to follow scrum as the framework

                                       
                                      Yes, it was very nice to implement! 
                                      The results and our problems was just showing up as we were working.

                                      The managers just wondered that Agile was something very different from what it really is...

                                      Brian said to involve the managers... in my case, they really didn't want to get involved... they just put all the work in our lap and want it done ASAP. We used to do a meeting when he had time, but it wasn't something regular. Sometimes we haven't had a meeting for 3-4 weeks to prioritize the work to do. After some changes, we used to have a meeting at least once a week. Our sprints were 1 week long.

                                      It's better when you can talk to your managers and migrate to Agile with their approval, but sometimes we don't have it.
                                      Then we need to work on a different approach. "Hidden baby steps" is a good one :)

                                      Att.

                                      Rafael Fuchs
                                      --
                                      rafaelfuchs@...
                                      +55 51 9993-8953
                                      http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs


                                      On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:26, Heitor Roriz Filho <hroriz@...> wrote:
                                       
                                      Hi Rafael,

                                      nice sharing of thoughts! Baby steps in the implementation.

                                      Heitor


                                      On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
                                       
                                      Hi Venkatesh

                                      I had a very similar problem in the company I was working on last year.
                                      All development team wanted to migrate to Agile, but the higher managers thought it was not good to do it.

                                      We were decided to change our process, no matter the opinion of others. This was risky, but we really wanted to do it.

                                      So we began doing little changes, one at a time... This way, the managers couldn't notice the changes. The set of changes we have implemented took about 4 months of work. When the managers ask something about it, we said it's something new to improve our work. We never said it was related to Agile.

                                      After a few months, we said to them "Look! Our is better now, don't you think? Welcome to Agile!".

                                      Some managers don't like to make changes... if you make the changes and show better results, they won't have arguments against it.
                                      It's risky to do something against their intentions, but you have authority to do something like this, it will be good.

                                      Att.

                                      Rafael Fuchs
                                      --
                                      rafaelfuchs@...
                                      +55 51 9993-8953
                                      http://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelfuchs



                                      On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 07:05, Venkatesh Kumar Mallingarajan <mvenkatesh_kumar@...> wrote:
                                       
                                      Dear All,

                                      I face difficulties in convincing my management to follow agile methodology using scrum.

                                      To be more detail. For the past years our company follows a kind of agile methodology which is not a complete agile. Also not successful in completing the project plan as there are lot of customer issues that has to be addressed immediately on that day.

                                      Since I completed Scrum Master training recently I tried to explain my Director about the framework. But management is not in a position to hear about the new changes.

                                      I would like to seek help from you guys how you all started the new changes in your career. Any suggestions are welcome. Please share your experience for me.

                                      Thanks in advance.

                                      Thanks & Regards
                                      Venkatesh

















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