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Re: selecting team members (was Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: ScrumMasters making more money than traditional PMs)

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  • Dan Rawsthorne
    Peter, I like that last sentence Whether the person prioritizes a story or gives the team instructions makes clear which hat he has on. I think that nicely
    Message 1 of 42 , Aug 29, 2010
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      Peter, I like that last sentence "Whether the person prioritizes a story
      or gives the team instructions makes clear which hat he has on." I think
      that nicely summarizes the difference between the PO and a "boss" - two
      different forms of command, one with control, one without.

      Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
      Senior Trainer/Coach, CollabNet
      drawsthorne@..., 425-269-8628



      Peter Stevens (cal) wrote:
      > Hi Dan,
      >
      > Yes, he was the PO, there was no-one between him and the team. The business unit declined to provide
      > a PO, so the development group provided one.
      >
      > As I understand it, the key difference between self-organizing and self-governing is where the
      > team's instructions come from. A self-organizing team has a product owner or similar role, a self
      > governing team is its own product owner.
      >
      > I like your split the team story. Whether the person prioritizes a story or gives the team
      > instructions makes clear which hat he has on.
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Peter
      >
      > On 30.08.10 06:52, Dan Rawsthorne wrote:
      >
      >> Two things:
      >> 1. In your situation, the Line Manager is the PO, as he is accountable
      >> and there is nobody else who is accountable between him and the team
      >> 2. self-organizing and self-governing are completely different concepts.
      >> Self-organization (according to Nonaka) is simply the team reorganizing
      >> itself to better do the work at hand - I often call it "tactical
      >> agility" - changing the "how" knowing the "what" given the "reality" of
      >> what is going on. In scrum, the stories are (relatively) fixed and the
      >> Team reorganized daily (or more often) to get them done. Unless the PO
      >> put a "split the team" story on the Backlog, and the Team accepted it
      >> into the Sprint, it's not the Team's job to do it.
      >>
      >> We may want Teams to self-govern, but I don't think it's a part of
      >> scrum. Scrum is making do with what you've got in the best way you can.
      >>
      >> Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
      >> Senior Trainer/Coach, CollabNet
      >> drawsthorne@..., 425-269-8628
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Peter Stevens (cal) wrote:
      >>
      >>> Hi Michael,
      >>>
      >>> Good question! Possibly because that is one thing that line managers often do today. In the class,
      >>> we talked about a couple of cases:
      >>>
      >>> * A company (with and without Scrum) that uses its HR Department to filter candidates. Those that
      >>> pass get sent to talk to several teams. Then interesting candidates spend a day working with the
      >>> team they will probably work in. After this selection process, everybody is pretty convinced -- one
      >>> way or the other.
      >>>
      >>> * A team at another company had grown to 12 people or so. The P-O -- who was also the Line manager
      >>> for the team, so technically he was a P-O-Proxy -- wanted to split the team. The ScrumMaster advised
      >>> asking the team and the team said no every time they talked about it in the retrospective.
      >>> Eventually the P-O insisted, forcing the team to split (we can discuss whether he had his P-O hat or
      >>> his Line Manager hat on at the time). Next sprint the two teams had nearly twice the performance of
      >>> the whole team together.
      >>>
      >>> I think there is a subtle difference between self-organizing and self-governing. Perhaps expecting
      >>> team members who have committed to each other to think about dissolving the team is asking too much
      >>> of them?
      >>>
      >>> So I do think there is a role for outsiders to think about the composition of the team. What is less
      >>> clear to me is what the trade-offs are of a that 'outsider' being a Scrum Leadership role or an
      >>> organizational role.
      >>>
      >>> Cheers,
      >>>
      >>> Peter
      >>>
      >>> On 30.08.10 06:19, Michael James wrote:
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> Maybe I missed the previous discussion. I'm wondering why participants thought "line manager" would be better qualified to select team members than the team? I can see this when starting from scratch, I suppose. I had to put teams together from scratch, but once they're formed I think the teams are better able to select new members.
      >>>>
      >>>> --mj
      >>>>
      >>>> On Aug 29, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Peter wrote:
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>> Oops! That was the wrong link. Sorry!
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Here's the right one: http://bit.ly/bT8lkS
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Cheers,
      >>>>> Peter
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
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      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
    • Ron Jeffries
      Hello, Peter. On Monday, August 30, 2010, at 12:37:18 AM, you ... Why? (n times) Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com www.xprogramming.com/blog For me, XP ain t
      Message 42 of 42 , Aug 30, 2010
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        Hello, Peter. On Monday, August 30, 2010, at 12:37:18 AM, you
        wrote:

        > * A team at another company had grown to 12 people or so. The P-O
        > -- who was also the Line manager for the team, so technically he
        > was a P-O-Proxy -- wanted to split the team. The ScrumMaster
        > advised asking the team and the team said no every time they
        > talked about it in the retrospective. Eventually the P-O insisted,
        > forcing the team to split (we can discuss whether he had his P-O
        > hat or his Line Manager hat on at the time). Next sprint the two
        > teams had nearly twice the performance of the whole team together.

        Why? (n times)

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        www.xprogramming.com/blog
        For me, XP ain't out there, it's in here. -- Bill Caputo
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