Re: selecting team members (was Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: ScrumMasters making more money than traditional PMs)
- Peter, I like that last sentence "Whether the person prioritizes a story
or gives the team instructions makes clear which hat he has on." I think
that nicely summarizes the difference between the PO and a "boss" - two
different forms of command, one with control, one without.
Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
Senior Trainer/Coach, CollabNet
Peter Stevens (cal) wrote:
> Hi Dan,
> Yes, he was the PO, there was no-one between him and the team. The business unit declined to provide
> a PO, so the development group provided one.
> As I understand it, the key difference between self-organizing and self-governing is where the
> team's instructions come from. A self-organizing team has a product owner or similar role, a self
> governing team is its own product owner.
> I like your split the team story. Whether the person prioritizes a story or gives the team
> instructions makes clear which hat he has on.
> On 30.08.10 06:52, Dan Rawsthorne wrote:
>> Two things:
>> 1. In your situation, the Line Manager is the PO, as he is accountable
>> and there is nobody else who is accountable between him and the team
>> 2. self-organizing and self-governing are completely different concepts.
>> Self-organization (according to Nonaka) is simply the team reorganizing
>> itself to better do the work at hand - I often call it "tactical
>> agility" - changing the "how" knowing the "what" given the "reality" of
>> what is going on. In scrum, the stories are (relatively) fixed and the
>> Team reorganized daily (or more often) to get them done. Unless the PO
>> put a "split the team" story on the Backlog, and the Team accepted it
>> into the Sprint, it's not the Team's job to do it.
>> We may want Teams to self-govern, but I don't think it's a part of
>> scrum. Scrum is making do with what you've got in the best way you can.
>> Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
>> Senior Trainer/Coach, CollabNet
>> drawsthorne@..., 425-269-8628
>> Peter Stevens (cal) wrote:
>>> Hi Michael,
>>> Good question! Possibly because that is one thing that line managers often do today. In the class,
>>> we talked about a couple of cases:
>>> * A company (with and without Scrum) that uses its HR Department to filter candidates. Those that
>>> pass get sent to talk to several teams. Then interesting candidates spend a day working with the
>>> team they will probably work in. After this selection process, everybody is pretty convinced -- one
>>> way or the other.
>>> * A team at another company had grown to 12 people or so. The P-O -- who was also the Line manager
>>> for the team, so technically he was a P-O-Proxy -- wanted to split the team. The ScrumMaster advised
>>> asking the team and the team said no every time they talked about it in the retrospective.
>>> Eventually the P-O insisted, forcing the team to split (we can discuss whether he had his P-O hat or
>>> his Line Manager hat on at the time). Next sprint the two teams had nearly twice the performance of
>>> the whole team together.
>>> I think there is a subtle difference between self-organizing and self-governing. Perhaps expecting
>>> team members who have committed to each other to think about dissolving the team is asking too much
>>> of them?
>>> So I do think there is a role for outsiders to think about the composition of the team. What is less
>>> clear to me is what the trade-offs are of a that 'outsider' being a Scrum Leadership role or an
>>> organizational role.
>>> On 30.08.10 06:19, Michael James wrote:
>>>> Maybe I missed the previous discussion. I'm wondering why participants thought "line manager" would be better qualified to select team members than the team? I can see this when starting from scratch, I suppose. I had to put teams together from scratch, but once they're formed I think the teams are better able to select new members.
>>>> On Aug 29, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Peter wrote:
>>>>> Oops! That was the wrong link. Sorry!
>>>>> Here's the right one: http://bit.ly/bT8lkS
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- Hello, Peter. On Monday, August 30, 2010, at 12:37:18 AM, you
> * A team at another company had grown to 12 people or so. The P-OWhy? (n times)
> -- who was also the Line manager for the team, so technically he
> was a P-O-Proxy -- wanted to split the team. The ScrumMaster
> advised asking the team and the team said no every time they
> talked about it in the retrospective. Eventually the P-O insisted,
> forcing the team to split (we can discuss whether he had his P-O
> hat or his Line Manager hat on at the time). Next sprint the two
> teams had nearly twice the performance of the whole team together.
For me, XP ain't out there, it's in here. -- Bill Caputo