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RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Does daily scrum has to have so rigid structure?

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  • ANIKET MHALA
    I agree with George. Specifically in onshore-offshore model, during the daily stand-up meeting, after answering three questions by a team member, I have seen
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 31 11:27 PM
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      I agree with George.

      Specifically in onshore-offshore model, during the daily stand-up meeting, after answering three questions by a team member, I have seen other team members have some questions with respect to answers given by one team member. They discussed it quickly (not more than 3 minutes) and sometime it is really helping team to take some good decisions in stand-up only.  On other side, if someone is taking more time (more than 3 minutes) then Scrum Master is strictly requesting team to take this discussion offline.

      With 10 members (5 offshore and 5 onshore) we are able to finish Daily standup meeting between 20 to 25 minutes. I think these 20 to 25 minutes are really value addition for entire team instead of just answering three questions and postponing some important decisions where everyone’s view is required.

      It was taking 50 to 60 minutes earlier and now team is finishing daily stand-up meeting within 20 to 25 minutes (in their 4th Sprint of 3 weeks). We found preparation of every team member prior to attend stand-up is helping them only to conduct standup within 20 to 25 minutes with some important decisions and update the status using GreenHopper tool.

      Regards,

      Aniket Mhala | Agile Coach & EIP-Head| Tech Mahindra

      Oberoi Estate Gardens, Chandivali, Mumbai 400 072

      Cell: 98199 02022

      CSM,CSP

      Author of Software Books

      Email: mailto:aniketm@...

      www.techmahindra.com

       



      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com on behalf of George Dinwiddie
      Sent: Sun 8/1/2010 5:07 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Does daily scrum has to have so rigid structure?

       

      Marek,

      On 7/31/10 6:22 PM, Marek Blotny wrote:
      >> If another team member has advice on dealing with an impediment, won't
      >> they say so?
      >
      > Currently other team members are free to jump in. I think it's
      > helpful but it also leads to discussions and breaks the structure of
      > daily scrum. It makes job of SM slighty harder as it's up to SM to
      > stop it on reasonable level of details.

      Well, it's really up to the team to stop it on a reasonable level of
      details, but it's not so difficult for the scrummaster to interject "Why
      don't you continue that discussion after the standup?"

      > "Would such discussions necessarily need the entire team?" Usually no.
      >
      > There are follow-up meeting for anything that team think is worth it.
      > But I have seen number of times scenarios in which one person is
      > saying that is working on one issue and other team members give
      > impulsive hints like ... ' I have seen this bug before ... take a
      > look on this and that'. I don't want to kill this kind of impulsive
      > remarks.

      You don't have to. If they go back and forth a couple times, say "Why
      don't you continue that discussion after the standup?"

      >> A question in return: Are the members of your team collaborating on the
      >> work, or are they working individually on tasks that are expected to
      >> come together later?
      >
      > It depends on situation but usually they are on individual tasks. But
      > I don't see any problems with communication during the day.
      > Discussions like 'what is the best way to... ' are quite frequent.

      The reason I ask is that when people are having difficulty with the
      standup, it's usually that people are working on separate tasks.

      The more people collaborate on functional slices, the more value they
      get from the coordination of the standup, and also the shorter the
      standup--due to the increased coordination throughout the day. There
      are, of course, many other benefits to working in that fashion, also.

      - George

      --
      ----------------------------------------------------------
      * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
      Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
      Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
      ----------------------------------------------------------

      ============================================================================================================================Disclaimer:  This message and the information contained herein is proprietary and confidential and subject to the Tech Mahindra policy statement, you may review the policy at http://www.techmahindra.com/Disclaimer.html externally and http://tim.techmahindra.com/Disclaimer.html internally within Tech Mahindra.============================================================================================================================
    • Marchi, Michael
      At first, we enforced the rigid structure with our teams. Then the team members complained that they weren t getting vital information they needed, so they
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 1, 2010
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        At first, we enforced the rigid structure with our teams.

         

        Then the team members complained that they weren’t getting vital information they needed, so they asked if it was okay to ask each other clarifying questions.

        They tried that.  Quick questions soon evolved into longer responses and conversations.

        Then team members complained that the Daily Scrum was taking too long.

         

        <insert multiple iterations of tying to be more rigid vs more flexible>

         

        Now we allow one clarifying question.  If you need more than that, the rest of the team declares the item to be tabled until after the status round is complete.

         

        The Daily Scrum should allow for quick statusing, and identification of need for more in-depth interaction.  It does not claim to be the perfect, sole venue for team interaction.

         

        Regards,

        Michael Marchi

         

        Siemens Industry, Inc.

        Building Technologies

        SW Engineer IV, CSM, CSPO, CSP, Agile Coach and Trainer

         

         


        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of marekblotny@...
        Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 3:01 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Does daily scrum has to have so rigid structure?

         

         

        About daily scrum theory says that each team member should answer three well-known questions:

         

        • What did you do yesterday?
        • What will you do today?
        • Are there any impediments in your way?

         

        As I understand it, (please correct me if I'm wrong here) there is not much room for almost any discussion. I find it a bit strange. I see daily scrum as a great opportunity to do discus project status, ongoing work or encountered issues. Shouldn't it be a good moment to ask for advice other team members? 

         

        Of course, I understand that we don't want to jump deep into details during such discussions - 15 minutes for daily scrum is an absolute maximum and this rule has the highest priority. But assuming that such discussions are useful for the team, maybe there is no point in enforcing so rigid structure of daily scrums? 

         

        What are yo ur thoughts?    

         

        -- 

        Marek Blotny

         

      • Adam Sroka
        I find there are two dominant anti-patterns with the daily stand-up (and lots of little variations.) First, folks aren t talking at other times so they want
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 1, 2010
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          I find there are two dominant anti-patterns with the daily stand-up (and lots of little variations.) First, folks aren't talking at other times so they want (need!) to talk about /everything./ As a Scrummaster this is a good opportunity to earn your check. Make sure that discussions get tabled until after the stand-up. Make sure that after the stand-up they happen! Find out what is being talked about, and subtly suggest that: "When did you first realize that you needed answers to these questions? Why didn't you ask then? Would there be value in having these conversations sooner/more often?"

          Second, there are highly functioning, radically co-located teams where the daily stand-up is tedious: "Yesterday Bob and I worked on the thing... Today we're working on the other thing right here (on the board.) No obstacles." And Bob says, "Ditto." And I'm thinking, "This is five minutes of my life that I will never get back." I have an answer for this scenario too, but I got verbally flogged the last time I suggested it. So, I'm going to let you figure it out for yourself. BTW, this is rare. Maybe 1% of teams have this problem and not the prior one.

          On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Marchi, Michael <michael.marchi@...> wrote:
           

          At first, we enforced the rigid structure with our teams.

           

          Then the team members complained that they weren’t getting vital information they needed, so they asked if it was okay to ask each other clarifying questions.

          They tried that.  Quick questions soon evolved into longer responses and conversations.

          Then team members complained that the Daily Scrum was taking too long.

           

          <insert multiple iterations of tying to be more rigid vs more flexible>

           

          Now we allow one clarifying question.  If you need more than that, the rest of the team declares the item to be tabled until after the status round is complete.

           

          The Daily Scrum should allow for quick statusing, and identification of need for more in-depth interaction.  It does not claim to be the perfect, sole venue for team interaction.

           

          Regards,

          Michael Marchi

           

          Siemens Industry, Inc.

          Building Technologies

          SW Engineer IV, CSM, CSPO, CSP, Agile Coach and Trainer

           

           


          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of marekblotny@...
          Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 3:01 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Does daily scrum has to have so rigid structure?

           

           

          About daily scrum theory says that each team member should answer three well-known questions:

           

          • What did you do yesterday?
          • What will you do today?
          • Are there any impediments in your way?

           

          As I understand it, (please correct me if I'm wrong here) there is not much room for almost any discussion. I find it a bit strange. I see daily scrum as a great opportunity to do discus project status, ongoing work or encountered issues. Shouldn't it be a good moment to ask for advice other team members? 

           

          Of course, I understand that we don't want to jump deep into details during such discussions - 15 minutes for daily scrum is an absolute maximum and this rule has the highest priority. But assuming that such discussions are useful for the team, maybe there is no point in enforcing so rigid structure of daily scrums? 

           

          What are yo ur thoughts?    

           

          -- 

          Marek Blotny

           


        • Bachan Anand
          ... Very good point Adam. I also find that the need for having detailed problem solving discussion is due to the lack of availability and collaboration of the
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 1, 2010
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            On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
             

            I find there are two dominant anti-patterns with the daily stand-up (and lots of little variations.) First, folks aren't talking at other times so they want (need!) to talk about /everything./ As a Scrummaster this is a good opportunity to earn your check. Make sure that discussions get tabled until after the stand-up. Make sure that after the stand-up they happen! Find out what is being talked about, and subtly suggest that: "When did you first realize that you needed answers to these questions? Why didn't you ask then? Would there be value in having these conversations sooner/more often?"

            Very good point Adam. I also find that the need for having detailed problem solving discussion is due to the lack of availability and collaboration of the team members outside of the daily stand-up. So having these discussion in the stand-up will not solve problem,on the other hand it will promote the dysfunction by people waiting until the stand-up to have their discussion .


            Second, there are highly functioning, radically co-located teams where the daily stand-up is tedious: "Yesterday Bob and I worked on the thing... Today we're working on the other thing right here (on the board.) No obstacles." And Bob says, "Ditto." And I'm thinking, "This is five minutes of my life that I will never get back." I have an answer for this scenario too, but I got verbally flogged the last time I suggested it. So, I'm going to let you figure it out for yourself. BTW, this is rare. Maybe 1% of teams have this problem and not the prior one.



            Going back to the original post, what I have found helpful is to go back to the why behind these practices and also see how you can keep the Scrum values and principles in perspective when do a stand-up.  I believe the rigidness comes when the team is told to ask these three questions without giving them a chance to reflect on the "why" behind the practice or as Adam pointed about "why" behind having to discuss more during the stand-up.

            It is a good problem to have when a team is already in flow and rhythm and that team I believe will  find a better way to run the stand-up , focus only on impediments, maybe make it shorter  ..... I am sure if the team looks at it with a beginners mind and apply inspect and adapt, the team will be able to find the answer.


             
            On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Marchi, Michael <michael.marchi@...> wrote:
             

            At first, we enforced the rigid structure with our teams.

             

            Then the team members complained that they weren’t getting vital information they needed, so they asked if it was okay to ask each other clarifying questions.

            They tried that.  Quick questions soon evolved into longer responses and conversations.

            Then team members complained that the Daily Scrum was taking too long.

             

            <insert multiple iterations of tying to be more rigid vs more flexible>

             

            Now we allow one clarifying question.  If you need more than that, the rest of the team declares the item to be tabled until after the status round is complete.

             

            The Daily Scrum should allow for quick statusing, and identification of need for more in-depth interaction.  It does not claim to be the perfect, sole venue for team interaction.

             

            Regards,

            Michael Marchi

             

            Siemens Industry, Inc.

            Building Technologies

            SW Engineer IV, CSM, CSPO, CSP, Agile Coach and Trainer

             

             


            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of marekblotny@...
            Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 3:01 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Does daily scrum has to have so rigid structure?

             

             

            About daily scrum theory says that each team member should answer three well-known questions:

             

            • What did you do yesterday?
            • What will you do today?
            • Are there any impediments in your way?

             

            As I understand it, (please correct me if I'm wrong here) there is not much room for almost any discussion. I find it a bit strange. I see daily scrum as a great opportunity to do discus project status, ongoing work or encountered issues. Shouldn't it be a good moment to ask for advice other team members? 

             

            Of course, I understand that we don't want to jump deep into details during such discussions - 15 minutes for daily scrum is an absolute maximum and this rule has the highest priority. But assuming that such discussions are useful for the team, maybe there is no point in enforcing so rigid structure of daily scrums? 

             

            What are yo ur thoughts?    

             

            -- 

            Marek Blotny

             



          • Ron Jeffries
            Hello, Michael. On Sunday, August 1, 2010, at 2:01:56 PM, you ... Joe: Blah blah blah. Sam: I ll see you after. Works just fine. Ron Jeffries
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 1, 2010
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              Hello, Michael. On Sunday, August 1, 2010, at 2:01:56 PM, you
              wrote:

              > Then the team members complained that they weren't getting vital
              > information they needed, so they asked if it was okay to ask each other
              > clarifying questions.

              > They tried that. Quick questions soon evolved into longer responses and
              > conversations.

              > Then team members complained that the Daily Scrum was taking too long.

              Joe: Blah blah blah.
              Sam: I'll see you after.


              Works just fine.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              www.xprogramming.com/blog
              Those who attain to any excellence commonly spend life in some single
              pursuit, for excellence is not often gained upon easier terms.
              -- Samuel Johnson
            • BOONE Nadya
              ... the daily stand-up is tedious: Yesterday Bob and I worked on the thing... Today we re working on the other thing right here (on the board.) No
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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                Adam wrote:

                >Second, there are highly functioning, radically co-located teams where the daily stand-up is tedious: "Yesterday Bob and I worked on the thing... Today we're >working on the other thing right here (on the board.) No obstacles." And Bob says, "Ditto." And I'm thinking, "This is five minutes of my life that I will never get >back." I have an answer for this scenario too, but I got verbally flogged the last time I suggested it. So, I'm going to let you figure it out for yourself. BTW, this is >rare. Maybe 1% of teams have this problem and not the prior one.

                I am the Scrum Master for one such “radically co-located team” and am having a hard time breaking the feeling that the team is reporting to me, rather than to each other.

                 

                I’d be interested in anyone’s thoughts on how to change this.

                 

                 

                Nadya Duke Boone

                Project Manager, Information Technology

                Multnomah County

                503.988.5503


              • Michael James
                ... I m a fan of the ScrumMaster leaving the room in such situations. Get them in a tight circle around the taskboard, ask someone to keep track of
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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                  On Aug 3, 2010, at 1:26 PM, BOONE Nadya wrote:

                  > I am the Scrum Master for one such “radically co-located team” and am having a hard time breaking the feeling that the team is reporting to me, rather than to each other.

                  I'm a fan of the ScrumMaster leaving the room in such situations. Get them in a tight circle around the taskboard, ask someone to keep track of impediments for you, and stand outside the door.

                  --mj
                • Tony Pagliocco
                  An old trick I read somewhere was that when the team is giving their reports - dont look at them , look down, look away, look at something else Make THEM talk
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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                    An old trick I read somewhere was that when the team is giving their reports - dont look at them , look down, look away, look at something else

                    Make THEM talk to the team, not to you.


                    On Aug 3, 2010, at 1:32 PM, Michael James wrote:

                    > On Aug 3, 2010, at 1:26 PM, BOONE Nadya wrote:
                    >
                    >> I am the Scrum Master for one such “radically co-located team” and am having a hard time breaking the feeling that the team is reporting to me, rather than to each other.
                    >
                    > I'm a fan of the ScrumMaster leaving the room in such situations. Get them in a tight circle around the taskboard, ask someone to keep track of impediments for you, and stand outside the door.
                    >
                    > --mj
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
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                    >
                  • Adam Sroka
                    On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 1:26 PM, BOONE Nadya ... 1) Don t show up. Tell them that something came up, and you are sorry you missed the stand-up. Ask how it went.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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                      On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 1:26 PM, BOONE Nadya
                      <nadya.boone@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Adam wrote:
                      >
                      > >Second, there are highly functioning, radically co-located teams where the daily stand-up is tedious: "Yesterday Bob and I worked on the thing... Today we're >working on the other thing right here (on the board.) No obstacles." And Bob says, "Ditto." And I'm thinking, "This is five minutes of my life that I will never get >back." I have an answer for this scenario too, but I got verbally flogged the last time I suggested it. So, I'm going to let you figure it out for yourself. BTW, this is >rare. Maybe 1% of teams have this problem and not the prior one.
                      >
                      > I am the Scrum Master for one such “radically co-located team” and am having a hard time breaking the feeling that the team is reporting to me, rather than to each other.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I’d be interested in anyone’s thoughts on how to change this.
                      >

                      1) Don't show up. Tell them that something came up, and you are sorry
                      you missed the stand-up. Ask how it went.

                      2) Go for a couple of days without having the stand-up and see if
                      anything breaks. Then try a week. Then try a whole Sprint. Retrospect
                      after each attempt and find out what works best for your team. Many
                      teams find that having the stand-up every day is crucial, but some
                      only need to do it once a week, or never.

                      (P.S. I know that some of you don't agree with this advice, but I
                      recommend you try it *then* I'll listen to what you have to say about
                      it ;-)
                    • Angela Martin
                      ... I have done this before too :) An alternative is to simply draw people s attention to what is happening, this can often be enough to help break a habit.
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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                        >> I am the Scrum Master for one such “radically co-located team” and am having a hard >> time breaking the feeling that the team is reporting to me, rather than to each other.
                        >
                        > I'm a fan of the ScrumMaster leaving the room in such situations.  Get them in a tight
                        > circle around the taskboard, ask someone to keep track of impediments for you, and
                        > stand outside the door.

                        I have done this before too :)

                        An alternative is to simply draw people's attention to what is
                        happening, this can often be enough to help break a habit.

                        Another thing to ponder might be, why? Is what you are seeing a
                        symptom of something deeper. And if so, what might be the underlying
                        cause?

                        Cheers,
                        Angela

                        > --mj
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        >
                        > To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
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                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        Angela Martin

                        Department of Computer Science
                        The University of Waikato, New Zealand
                        p : +64 21 855 888 or +64 7 838 4768
                        e : angela@...
                        w : http://www.martinitconsulting.com
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