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Does daily scrum has to have so rigid structure?

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  • marekblotny@rocketmail.com
    About daily scrum theory says that each team member should answer three well-known questions: * What did you do yesterday? * What will you do today? * Are
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 31, 2010
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      About daily scrum theory says that each team member should answer three well-known questions:

      • What did you do yesterday?
      • What will you do today?
      • Are there any impediments in your way?

      As I understand it, (please correct me if I'm wrong here) there is not much room for almost any discussion. I find it a bit strange. I see daily scrum as a great opportunity to do discus project status, ongoing work or encountered issues. Shouldn't it be a good moment to ask for advice other team members? 

      Of course, I understand that we don't want to jump deep into details during such discussions - 15 minutes for daily scrum is an absolute maximum and this rule has the highest priority. But assuming that such discussions are useful for the team, maybe there is no point in enforcing so rigid structure of daily scrums? 

      What are your thoughts?    

      -- 
      Marek Blotny

    • Bachan Anand
      Marek, Good question, I don t have answers, more questions as I have been asking myself the same questions and these are some questions I came up with . On
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 31, 2010
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        Marek,

        Good question, I don't have answers, more questions as I have been asking myself the same questions and these are some questions I came up with .

        On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 1:01 PM, marekblotny@... <marekblotny@...> wrote:
         

        About daily scrum theory says that each team member should answer three well-known questions:

        • What did you do yesterday?
        • What will you do today?
        • Are there any impediments in your way?

        As I understand it, (please correct me if I'm wrong here) there is not much room for almost any discussion. I find it a bit strange. I see daily scrum as a great opportunity to do discus project status, ongoing work or encountered issues.


        Wouldn't those three questions provide an update to everyone involved on the Sprint status and most importantly what is important for the next 24 hours as a team?
         
        Shouldn't it be a good moment to ask for advice other team members? 


        Would  it help the Sprint  if everyone gets the idea that stand-up is the time for disussing details , solving problem and getting advice.I see people taking relevant notes during the stand-up and I am sure they have the necessary discussion based on what they learned from the stand-up.
         
        Of course, I understand that we don't want to jump deep into details during such discussions - 15 minutes for daily scrum is an absolute maximum and this rule has the highest priority. But assuming that such discussions are useful for the team, maybe there is no point in enforcing so rigid structure of daily scrums? 

        If there is enough to discuss wouldn't a self organizing team setup follow-up meetings to have these discussion with everyone involved.?

        What are your thoughts?    

        -- 

        In general I believe that the way stand-up in is a reflection of the focus of the  team , how engaged they are and how well they are poised to meet the commitment .
        I have seen teams introducing a fourth question like , what are you grateful for today, is there any team member you want to acknowledge etc to make the stand-up less like a rigid 15 minute drill.


      • George Dinwiddie
        Marek, ... If another team member has advice on dealing with an impediment, won t they say so? ... Would such discussions necessarily need the entire team?
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 31, 2010
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          Marek,

          On 7/31/10 4:01 PM, marekblotny@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > About daily scrum theory says that each team member should answer three
          > well-known questions:
          >
          > * What did you do yesterday?
          > * What will you do today?
          > * Are there any impediments in your way?
          >
          >
          > As I understand it, (please correct me if I'm wrong here) there is not
          > much room for almost any discussion. I find it a bit strange. I see
          > daily scrum as a great opportunity to do discus project status, ongoing
          > work or encountered issues. Shouldn't it be a good moment to ask for
          > advice other team members?

          If another team member has advice on dealing with an impediment, won't
          they say so?

          > Of course, I understand that we don't want to jump deep into details
          > during such discussions - 15 minutes for daily scrum is an absolute
          > maximum and this rule has the highest priority. But assuming that such
          > discussions are useful for the team, maybe there is no point in
          > enforcing so rigid structure of daily scrums?

          Would such discussions necessarily need the entire team? It's usual
          that the need for further discussions is identified in the Daily Scrum,
          and the discussion happens (or is scheduled to happen later) right
          afterwards.

          A question in return: Are the members of your team collaborating on the
          work, or are they working individually on tasks that are expected to
          come together later?

          - George

          --
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
          Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
          Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        • Alan Dayley
          It s my turn to speak in the Daily Scrum. I might say something like: Me: Yesterday I got the widget update working with some help from Mike. Thanks, Mike!
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 31, 2010
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            It's my turn to speak in the Daily Scrum.  I might say something like:

            Me: Yesterday I got the widget update working with some help from Mike.  Thanks, Mike!
            Mike: No problem!
            Me: Today I'll add the data compare to the widget update.  Lisa, I might need to get with you on your data query code so I can use it in the compare.
            Lisa: I can help with that.  I also wrote a document on the function calls.  Did you see it?
            Me: No, I missed the document.  After the meeting I'll go find it in the repository and let you know if I need more assistance.
            Lisa: I'm leaving early today for an appointment.  Better come find me before 2:00!
            Me: OK, good.  The source control server was slow yesterday.  Maybe we have a problem there.  Can that be looked at?"

            Done.

            A new team might be more strict about the questions and answers than something like the above.  Maybe they are training themselves to keep from rambling or maybe they are helping a team member be less of a talker or something.  I think, over time, the team should get used to the amount of information they can talk about and how long each should take.

            We regularly complete a 24 person Daily Scrum meeting in less than 15 minutes.  (Yea, team size is a different discussion!)  Stick to the specifics and having a team board to point at task cards and stories helps keep the focus.  Follow-up discussions happen all the time as soon as the 15 minutes are up.

            Alan

            On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 1:01 PM, marekblotny@... <marekblotny@...> wrote:
             

            About daily scrum theory says that each team member should answer three well-known questions:

            • What did you do yesterday?
            • What will you do today?
            • Are there any impediments in your way?

            As I understand it, (please correct me if I'm wrong here) there is not much room for almost any discussion. I find it a bit strange. I see daily scrum as a great opportunity to do discus project status, ongoing work or encountered issues. Shouldn't it be a good moment to ask for advice other team members? 

            Of course, I understand that we don't want to jump deep into details during such discussions - 15 minutes for daily scrum is an absolute maximum and this rule has the highest priority. But assuming that such discussions are useful for the team, maybe there is no point in enforcing so rigid structure of daily scrums? 

            What are your thoughts?    

            -- 
            Marek Blotny


          • Peter Stevens (calendar)
            Hi Marek, Yes, this is very good question. The purpose of the daily scrum is for self organization to take place. You can tell that self organizing is
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 31, 2010
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              Hi Marek,

              Yes, this is very good question.

              The purpose of the daily scrum is for self organization to take place.

              You can tell that self organizing is happening if the team members break into small conversations, usually of two or three people, after the daily scrum. If everybody disappears after the daily scrum, something smells.

              The daily scrum is not for resolving problems or status reporting. This kind of discussion with the whole team risks degenerating into a star format reporting to the Scrum Master in which most of the team members have 'shut down' until it is their turn to talk. The goal is to keep the meeting effective and efficient -- with the whole team sitting around and only two or three really active, the wasted productivity can be substantial.

              Are you allowed to change it? Much more difficult question. Some would say no (and it is easy to quote the Scrum Guide on what may and may not happen in the daily scrum). Others would say, "the fundamental principle of Scrum is 'Inspect and Adapt' and it is legitimate to apply this principle to the Daily Scrum. This is what the retrospective is for."

              Some people have suggested additional questions, but I don't think these suggestions have gained much traction in the community.

              Personally, I would 1) stick dogmatically to the 15 minute time box, 2) ensure that the meeting really is first and foremost about communication among the team members, and 3) if there are any issues of the daily scrum, talk about them with the team in the next retrospective...

              Cheers,

              Peter

              P.S I wrote a couple of articles about the daily scrum a while back. Maybe these will be helpful...

              On 31.07.10 22:01, marekblotny@... wrote:
               
              About daily scrum theory says that each team member should answer three well-known questions:

              • What did you do yesterday?
              • What will you do today?
              • Are there any impediments in your way?

              As I understand it, (please correct me if I'm wrong here) there is not much room for almost any discussion. I find it a bit strange. I see daily scrum as a great opportunity to do discus project status, ongoing work or encountered issues. Shouldn't it be a good moment to ask for advice other team members? 

              Of course, I understand that we don't want to jump deep into details during such discussions - 15 minutes for daily scrum is an absolute maximum and this rule has the highest priority. But assuming that such discussions are useful for the team, maybe there is no point in enforcing so rigid structure of daily scrums? 

              What are your thoughts?    

              -- 
              Marek Blotny



              -- 
              Lean Agile Scrum Konferenz in Zürich mit Mary Poppendieck und Henrik Kniberg.
              Schlagen Sie die Brücke von Scrum Team bis zum schlanken Unternehmen!
              http://bit.ly/las-zh 
              
              Peter Stevens, CSM, CSPO, CSP
              Independent Scrum Trainer and Coach
              Sierra-Charlie Consulting | Zurich | Switzerland
              
              Member of DasScrumTeam.de
              
              blog:  http://scrum-breakfast.com
              tel:   +41 44 586 6450 
              cell:  +41 79 422 6722
              skype: peterstev
            • Marek Blotny
              Thanks for you reply, my comments are below ... ... wrote: Marek, Good question, I don t have answers, more questions as I have been asking myself the
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 31, 2010
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                Thanks for you reply, my comments are below ... 


                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Bachan Anand <bachans@...> wrote:
                >
                > Marek,
                > Good question, I don't have answers, more questions as I have been asking
                > myself the same questions and these are some questions I came up with .
                > On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 1:01 PM, marekblotny@... <
                > marekblotny@... wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > About daily scrum theory says that each team member should answer three
                > > well-known questions:
                > >
                > >
                > > - What did you do yesterday?
                > > - What will you do today?
                > > - Are there any impediments in your way?
                > >
                > >
                > > As I understand it, (please correct me if I'm wrong here) there is not much
                > > room for almost any discussion. I find it a bit strange. I see daily scrum
                > > as a great opportunity to do discus project status, ongoing work or
                > > encountered issues.
                > >
                > Wouldn't those three questions provide an update to everyone involved on the
                > Sprint status and most importantly what is important for the next 24 hours
                > as a team?


                Yes, everyone is updated. But I see daily scrums also as a chance to share knowledge.

                > > Shouldn't it be a good moment to ask for advice other team members?
                > >
                > >
                > Would it help the Sprint if everyone gets the idea that stand-up is the
                > time for disussing details , solving problem and getting advice.I see people
                > taking relevant notes during the stand-up and I am sure they have the
                > necessary discussion based on what they learned from the stand-up.


                Everyone has to have the idea that it's a short meeting (15 min max) so we have to keep discussions on reasonable level.

                > > Of course, I understand that we don't want to jump deep into details during
                > > such discussions - 15 minutes for daily scrum is an absolute maximum and
                > > this rule has the highest priority. But assuming that such discussions are
                > > useful for the team, maybe there is no point in enforcing so rigid structure
                > > of daily scrums?
                > >
                > If there is enough to discuss wouldn't a self organizing team setup
                > follow-up meetings to have these discussion with everyone involved.?

                There are follow-up meeting for anything that team think is worth it. But I have seen number of times scenarios in which one person is saying that is working on one issue and other team members give impulsive hints like ... ' I have seen this bug before ... take a look on this and that'. I don't want to kill this kind of impulsive remarks.

                > >
                > > What are your thoughts?
                > >
                > > --
                > >
                > In general I believe that the way stand-up in is a reflection of the focus
                > of the team , how engaged they are and how well they are poised to meet the
                > commitment .
                > I have seen teams introducing a fourth question like , what are you grateful
                > for today, is there any team member you want to acknowledge etc to make the
                > stand-up less like a rigid 15 minute drill.
                > Marek Blotny
                > > http://marekblotny.com
                > >
                > > 
                > >
                >
              • Marek Blotny
                ... Currently other team members are free to jump in. I think it s helpful but it also leads to discussions and breaks the structure of daily scrum. It makes
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 31, 2010
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                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Marek,
                  >
                  > On 7/31/10 4:01 PM, marekblotny@... wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > About daily scrum theory says that each team member should answer three
                  > > well-known questions:
                  > >
                  > > * What did you do yesterday?
                  > > * What will you do today?
                  > > * Are there any impediments in your way?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > As I understand it, (please correct me if I'm wrong here) there is not
                  > > much room for almost any discussion. I find it a bit strange. I see
                  > > daily scrum as a great opportunity to do discus project status, ongoing
                  > > work or encountered issues. Shouldn't it be a good moment to ask for
                  > > advice other team members?
                  >
                  > If another team member has advice on dealing with an impediment, won't
                  > they say so?

                  Currently other team members are free to jump in. I think it's helpful but it also leads to discussions and breaks the structure of daily scrum.
                  It makes job of SM slighty harder as it's up to SM to stop it on reasonable level of details.


                  >
                  > > Of course, I understand that we don't want to jump deep into details
                  > > during such discussions - 15 minutes for daily scrum is an absolute
                  > > maximum and this rule has the highest priority. But assuming that such
                  > > discussions are useful for the team, maybe there is no point in
                  > > enforcing so rigid structure of daily scrums?
                  >
                  > Would such discussions necessarily need the entire team? It's usual
                  > that the need for further discussions is identified in the Daily Scrum,
                  > and the discussion happens (or is scheduled to happen later) right
                  > afterwards.

                  "Would such discussions necessarily need the entire team?" Usually no.

                  There are follow-up meeting for anything that team think is worth it. But I have seen number of times scenarios in which one person is saying that is working on one issue and other team members give impulsive hints like ... ' I have seen this bug before ... take a look on this and that'. I don't want to kill this kind of impulsive remarks.


                  >
                  > A question in return: Are the members of your team collaborating on the
                  > work, or are they working individually on tasks that are expected to
                  > come together later?

                  It depends on situation but usually they are on individual tasks. But I don't see any problems with communication during the day. Discussions like 'what is the best way to... ' are quite frequent.


                  >
                  > - George
                  >
                  > --
                  > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                  > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                  > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                  > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                • George Dinwiddie
                  Marek, ... Well, it s really up to the team to stop it on a reasonable level of details, but it s not so difficult for the scrummaster to interject Why don t
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 31, 2010
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                    Marek,

                    On 7/31/10 6:22 PM, Marek Blotny wrote:
                    >> If another team member has advice on dealing with an impediment, won't
                    >> they say so?
                    >
                    > Currently other team members are free to jump in. I think it's
                    > helpful but it also leads to discussions and breaks the structure of
                    > daily scrum. It makes job of SM slighty harder as it's up to SM to
                    > stop it on reasonable level of details.

                    Well, it's really up to the team to stop it on a reasonable level of
                    details, but it's not so difficult for the scrummaster to interject "Why
                    don't you continue that discussion after the standup?"

                    > "Would such discussions necessarily need the entire team?" Usually no.
                    >
                    > There are follow-up meeting for anything that team think is worth it.
                    > But I have seen number of times scenarios in which one person is
                    > saying that is working on one issue and other team members give
                    > impulsive hints like ... ' I have seen this bug before ... take a
                    > look on this and that'. I don't want to kill this kind of impulsive
                    > remarks.

                    You don't have to. If they go back and forth a couple times, say "Why
                    don't you continue that discussion after the standup?"

                    >> A question in return: Are the members of your team collaborating on the
                    >> work, or are they working individually on tasks that are expected to
                    >> come together later?
                    >
                    > It depends on situation but usually they are on individual tasks. But
                    > I don't see any problems with communication during the day.
                    > Discussions like 'what is the best way to... ' are quite frequent.

                    The reason I ask is that when people are having difficulty with the
                    standup, it's usually that people are working on separate tasks.

                    The more people collaborate on functional slices, the more value they
                    get from the coordination of the standup, and also the shorter the
                    standup--due to the increased coordination throughout the day. There
                    are, of course, many other benefits to working in that fashion, also.

                    - George

                    --
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                    Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                    Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  • ANIKET MHALA
                    I agree with George. Specifically in onshore-offshore model, during the daily stand-up meeting, after answering three questions by a team member, I have seen
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 31, 2010
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                      I agree with George.

                      Specifically in onshore-offshore model, during the daily stand-up meeting, after answering three questions by a team member, I have seen other team members have some questions with respect to answers given by one team member. They discussed it quickly (not more than 3 minutes) and sometime it is really helping team to take some good decisions in stand-up only.  On other side, if someone is taking more time (more than 3 minutes) then Scrum Master is strictly requesting team to take this discussion offline.

                      With 10 members (5 offshore and 5 onshore) we are able to finish Daily standup meeting between 20 to 25 minutes. I think these 20 to 25 minutes are really value addition for entire team instead of just answering three questions and postponing some important decisions where everyone’s view is required.

                      It was taking 50 to 60 minutes earlier and now team is finishing daily stand-up meeting within 20 to 25 minutes (in their 4th Sprint of 3 weeks). We found preparation of every team member prior to attend stand-up is helping them only to conduct standup within 20 to 25 minutes with some important decisions and update the status using GreenHopper tool.

                      Regards,

                      Aniket Mhala | Agile Coach & EIP-Head| Tech Mahindra

                      Oberoi Estate Gardens, Chandivali, Mumbai 400 072

                      Cell: 98199 02022

                      CSM,CSP

                      Author of Software Books

                      Email: mailto:aniketm@...

                      www.techmahindra.com

                       



                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com on behalf of George Dinwiddie
                      Sent: Sun 8/1/2010 5:07 AM
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Does daily scrum has to have so rigid structure?

                       

                      Marek,

                      On 7/31/10 6:22 PM, Marek Blotny wrote:
                      >> If another team member has advice on dealing with an impediment, won't
                      >> they say so?
                      >
                      > Currently other team members are free to jump in. I think it's
                      > helpful but it also leads to discussions and breaks the structure of
                      > daily scrum. It makes job of SM slighty harder as it's up to SM to
                      > stop it on reasonable level of details.

                      Well, it's really up to the team to stop it on a reasonable level of
                      details, but it's not so difficult for the scrummaster to interject "Why
                      don't you continue that discussion after the standup?"

                      > "Would such discussions necessarily need the entire team?" Usually no.
                      >
                      > There are follow-up meeting for anything that team think is worth it.
                      > But I have seen number of times scenarios in which one person is
                      > saying that is working on one issue and other team members give
                      > impulsive hints like ... ' I have seen this bug before ... take a
                      > look on this and that'. I don't want to kill this kind of impulsive
                      > remarks.

                      You don't have to. If they go back and forth a couple times, say "Why
                      don't you continue that discussion after the standup?"

                      >> A question in return: Are the members of your team collaborating on the
                      >> work, or are they working individually on tasks that are expected to
                      >> come together later?
                      >
                      > It depends on situation but usually they are on individual tasks. But
                      > I don't see any problems with communication during the day.
                      > Discussions like 'what is the best way to... ' are quite frequent.

                      The reason I ask is that when people are having difficulty with the
                      standup, it's usually that people are working on separate tasks.

                      The more people collaborate on functional slices, the more value they
                      get from the coordination of the standup, and also the shorter the
                      standup--due to the increased coordination throughout the day. There
                      are, of course, many other benefits to working in that fashion, also.

                      - George

                      --
                      ----------------------------------------------------------
                      * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                      Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                      Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                      ----------------------------------------------------------

                      ============================================================================================================================Disclaimer:  This message and the information contained herein is proprietary and confidential and subject to the Tech Mahindra policy statement, you may review the policy at http://www.techmahindra.com/Disclaimer.html externally and http://tim.techmahindra.com/Disclaimer.html internally within Tech Mahindra.============================================================================================================================
                    • Marchi, Michael
                      At first, we enforced the rigid structure with our teams. Then the team members complained that they weren t getting vital information they needed, so they
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 1, 2010
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                        At first, we enforced the rigid structure with our teams.

                         

                        Then the team members complained that they weren’t getting vital information they needed, so they asked if it was okay to ask each other clarifying questions.

                        They tried that.  Quick questions soon evolved into longer responses and conversations.

                        Then team members complained that the Daily Scrum was taking too long.

                         

                        <insert multiple iterations of tying to be more rigid vs more flexible>

                         

                        Now we allow one clarifying question.  If you need more than that, the rest of the team declares the item to be tabled until after the status round is complete.

                         

                        The Daily Scrum should allow for quick statusing, and identification of need for more in-depth interaction.  It does not claim to be the perfect, sole venue for team interaction.

                         

                        Regards,

                        Michael Marchi

                         

                        Siemens Industry, Inc.

                        Building Technologies

                        SW Engineer IV, CSM, CSPO, CSP, Agile Coach and Trainer

                         

                         


                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of marekblotny@...
                        Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 3:01 PM
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Does daily scrum has to have so rigid structure?

                         

                         

                        About daily scrum theory says that each team member should answer three well-known questions:

                         

                        • What did you do yesterday?
                        • What will you do today?
                        • Are there any impediments in your way?

                         

                        As I understand it, (please correct me if I'm wrong here) there is not much room for almost any discussion. I find it a bit strange. I see daily scrum as a great opportunity to do discus project status, ongoing work or encountered issues. Shouldn't it be a good moment to ask for advice other team members? 

                         

                        Of course, I understand that we don't want to jump deep into details during such discussions - 15 minutes for daily scrum is an absolute maximum and this rule has the highest priority. But assuming that such discussions are useful for the team, maybe there is no point in enforcing so rigid structure of daily scrums? 

                         

                        What are yo ur thoughts?    

                         

                        -- 

                        Marek Blotny

                         

                      • Adam Sroka
                        I find there are two dominant anti-patterns with the daily stand-up (and lots of little variations.) First, folks aren t talking at other times so they want
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 1, 2010
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                          I find there are two dominant anti-patterns with the daily stand-up (and lots of little variations.) First, folks aren't talking at other times so they want (need!) to talk about /everything./ As a Scrummaster this is a good opportunity to earn your check. Make sure that discussions get tabled until after the stand-up. Make sure that after the stand-up they happen! Find out what is being talked about, and subtly suggest that: "When did you first realize that you needed answers to these questions? Why didn't you ask then? Would there be value in having these conversations sooner/more often?"

                          Second, there are highly functioning, radically co-located teams where the daily stand-up is tedious: "Yesterday Bob and I worked on the thing... Today we're working on the other thing right here (on the board.) No obstacles." And Bob says, "Ditto." And I'm thinking, "This is five minutes of my life that I will never get back." I have an answer for this scenario too, but I got verbally flogged the last time I suggested it. So, I'm going to let you figure it out for yourself. BTW, this is rare. Maybe 1% of teams have this problem and not the prior one.

                          On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Marchi, Michael <michael.marchi@...> wrote:
                           

                          At first, we enforced the rigid structure with our teams.

                           

                          Then the team members complained that they weren’t getting vital information they needed, so they asked if it was okay to ask each other clarifying questions.

                          They tried that.  Quick questions soon evolved into longer responses and conversations.

                          Then team members complained that the Daily Scrum was taking too long.

                           

                          <insert multiple iterations of tying to be more rigid vs more flexible>

                           

                          Now we allow one clarifying question.  If you need more than that, the rest of the team declares the item to be tabled until after the status round is complete.

                           

                          The Daily Scrum should allow for quick statusing, and identification of need for more in-depth interaction.  It does not claim to be the perfect, sole venue for team interaction.

                           

                          Regards,

                          Michael Marchi

                           

                          Siemens Industry, Inc.

                          Building Technologies

                          SW Engineer IV, CSM, CSPO, CSP, Agile Coach and Trainer

                           

                           


                          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of marekblotny@...
                          Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 3:01 PM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Does daily scrum has to have so rigid structure?

                           

                           

                          About daily scrum theory says that each team member should answer three well-known questions:

                           

                          • What did you do yesterday?
                          • What will you do today?
                          • Are there any impediments in your way?

                           

                          As I understand it, (please correct me if I'm wrong here) there is not much room for almost any discussion. I find it a bit strange. I see daily scrum as a great opportunity to do discus project status, ongoing work or encountered issues. Shouldn't it be a good moment to ask for advice other team members? 

                           

                          Of course, I understand that we don't want to jump deep into details during such discussions - 15 minutes for daily scrum is an absolute maximum and this rule has the highest priority. But assuming that such discussions are useful for the team, maybe there is no point in enforcing so rigid structure of daily scrums? 

                           

                          What are yo ur thoughts?    

                           

                          -- 

                          Marek Blotny

                           


                        • Bachan Anand
                          ... Very good point Adam. I also find that the need for having detailed problem solving discussion is due to the lack of availability and collaboration of the
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 1, 2010
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                            On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                             

                            I find there are two dominant anti-patterns with the daily stand-up (and lots of little variations.) First, folks aren't talking at other times so they want (need!) to talk about /everything./ As a Scrummaster this is a good opportunity to earn your check. Make sure that discussions get tabled until after the stand-up. Make sure that after the stand-up they happen! Find out what is being talked about, and subtly suggest that: "When did you first realize that you needed answers to these questions? Why didn't you ask then? Would there be value in having these conversations sooner/more often?"

                            Very good point Adam. I also find that the need for having detailed problem solving discussion is due to the lack of availability and collaboration of the team members outside of the daily stand-up. So having these discussion in the stand-up will not solve problem,on the other hand it will promote the dysfunction by people waiting until the stand-up to have their discussion .


                            Second, there are highly functioning, radically co-located teams where the daily stand-up is tedious: "Yesterday Bob and I worked on the thing... Today we're working on the other thing right here (on the board.) No obstacles." And Bob says, "Ditto." And I'm thinking, "This is five minutes of my life that I will never get back." I have an answer for this scenario too, but I got verbally flogged the last time I suggested it. So, I'm going to let you figure it out for yourself. BTW, this is rare. Maybe 1% of teams have this problem and not the prior one.



                            Going back to the original post, what I have found helpful is to go back to the why behind these practices and also see how you can keep the Scrum values and principles in perspective when do a stand-up.  I believe the rigidness comes when the team is told to ask these three questions without giving them a chance to reflect on the "why" behind the practice or as Adam pointed about "why" behind having to discuss more during the stand-up.

                            It is a good problem to have when a team is already in flow and rhythm and that team I believe will  find a better way to run the stand-up , focus only on impediments, maybe make it shorter  ..... I am sure if the team looks at it with a beginners mind and apply inspect and adapt, the team will be able to find the answer.


                             
                            On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Marchi, Michael <michael.marchi@...> wrote:
                             

                            At first, we enforced the rigid structure with our teams.

                             

                            Then the team members complained that they weren’t getting vital information they needed, so they asked if it was okay to ask each other clarifying questions.

                            They tried that.  Quick questions soon evolved into longer responses and conversations.

                            Then team members complained that the Daily Scrum was taking too long.

                             

                            <insert multiple iterations of tying to be more rigid vs more flexible>

                             

                            Now we allow one clarifying question.  If you need more than that, the rest of the team declares the item to be tabled until after the status round is complete.

                             

                            The Daily Scrum should allow for quick statusing, and identification of need for more in-depth interaction.  It does not claim to be the perfect, sole venue for team interaction.

                             

                            Regards,

                            Michael Marchi

                             

                            Siemens Industry, Inc.

                            Building Technologies

                            SW Engineer IV, CSM, CSPO, CSP, Agile Coach and Trainer

                             

                             


                            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of marekblotny@...
                            Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 3:01 PM
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Does daily scrum has to have so rigid structure?

                             

                             

                            About daily scrum theory says that each team member should answer three well-known questions:

                             

                            • What did you do yesterday?
                            • What will you do today?
                            • Are there any impediments in your way?

                             

                            As I understand it, (please correct me if I'm wrong here) there is not much room for almost any discussion. I find it a bit strange. I see daily scrum as a great opportunity to do discus project status, ongoing work or encountered issues. Shouldn't it be a good moment to ask for advice other team members? 

                             

                            Of course, I understand that we don't want to jump deep into details during such discussions - 15 minutes for daily scrum is an absolute maximum and this rule has the highest priority. But assuming that such discussions are useful for the team, maybe there is no point in enforcing so rigid structure of daily scrums? 

                             

                            What are yo ur thoughts?    

                             

                            -- 

                            Marek Blotny

                             



                          • Ron Jeffries
                            Hello, Michael. On Sunday, August 1, 2010, at 2:01:56 PM, you ... Joe: Blah blah blah. Sam: I ll see you after. Works just fine. Ron Jeffries
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 1, 2010
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                              Hello, Michael. On Sunday, August 1, 2010, at 2:01:56 PM, you
                              wrote:

                              > Then the team members complained that they weren't getting vital
                              > information they needed, so they asked if it was okay to ask each other
                              > clarifying questions.

                              > They tried that. Quick questions soon evolved into longer responses and
                              > conversations.

                              > Then team members complained that the Daily Scrum was taking too long.

                              Joe: Blah blah blah.
                              Sam: I'll see you after.


                              Works just fine.

                              Ron Jeffries
                              www.XProgramming.com
                              www.xprogramming.com/blog
                              Those who attain to any excellence commonly spend life in some single
                              pursuit, for excellence is not often gained upon easier terms.
                              -- Samuel Johnson
                            • BOONE Nadya
                              ... the daily stand-up is tedious: Yesterday Bob and I worked on the thing... Today we re working on the other thing right here (on the board.) No
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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                                Adam wrote:

                                >Second, there are highly functioning, radically co-located teams where the daily stand-up is tedious: "Yesterday Bob and I worked on the thing... Today we're >working on the other thing right here (on the board.) No obstacles." And Bob says, "Ditto." And I'm thinking, "This is five minutes of my life that I will never get >back." I have an answer for this scenario too, but I got verbally flogged the last time I suggested it. So, I'm going to let you figure it out for yourself. BTW, this is >rare. Maybe 1% of teams have this problem and not the prior one.

                                I am the Scrum Master for one such “radically co-located team” and am having a hard time breaking the feeling that the team is reporting to me, rather than to each other.

                                 

                                I’d be interested in anyone’s thoughts on how to change this.

                                 

                                 

                                Nadya Duke Boone

                                Project Manager, Information Technology

                                Multnomah County

                                503.988.5503


                              • Michael James
                                ... I m a fan of the ScrumMaster leaving the room in such situations. Get them in a tight circle around the taskboard, ask someone to keep track of
                                Message 15 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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                                  On Aug 3, 2010, at 1:26 PM, BOONE Nadya wrote:

                                  > I am the Scrum Master for one such “radically co-located team” and am having a hard time breaking the feeling that the team is reporting to me, rather than to each other.

                                  I'm a fan of the ScrumMaster leaving the room in such situations. Get them in a tight circle around the taskboard, ask someone to keep track of impediments for you, and stand outside the door.

                                  --mj
                                • Tony Pagliocco
                                  An old trick I read somewhere was that when the team is giving their reports - dont look at them , look down, look away, look at something else Make THEM talk
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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                                    An old trick I read somewhere was that when the team is giving their reports - dont look at them , look down, look away, look at something else

                                    Make THEM talk to the team, not to you.


                                    On Aug 3, 2010, at 1:32 PM, Michael James wrote:

                                    > On Aug 3, 2010, at 1:26 PM, BOONE Nadya wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> I am the Scrum Master for one such “radically co-located team” and am having a hard time breaking the feeling that the team is reporting to me, rather than to each other.
                                    >
                                    > I'm a fan of the ScrumMaster leaving the room in such situations. Get them in a tight circle around the taskboard, ask someone to keep track of impediments for you, and stand outside the door.
                                    >
                                    > --mj
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Adam Sroka
                                    On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 1:26 PM, BOONE Nadya ... 1) Don t show up. Tell them that something came up, and you are sorry you missed the stand-up. Ask how it went.
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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                                      On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 1:26 PM, BOONE Nadya
                                      <nadya.boone@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Adam wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >Second, there are highly functioning, radically co-located teams where the daily stand-up is tedious: "Yesterday Bob and I worked on the thing... Today we're >working on the other thing right here (on the board.) No obstacles." And Bob says, "Ditto." And I'm thinking, "This is five minutes of my life that I will never get >back." I have an answer for this scenario too, but I got verbally flogged the last time I suggested it. So, I'm going to let you figure it out for yourself. BTW, this is >rare. Maybe 1% of teams have this problem and not the prior one.
                                      >
                                      > I am the Scrum Master for one such “radically co-located team” and am having a hard time breaking the feeling that the team is reporting to me, rather than to each other.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I’d be interested in anyone’s thoughts on how to change this.
                                      >

                                      1) Don't show up. Tell them that something came up, and you are sorry
                                      you missed the stand-up. Ask how it went.

                                      2) Go for a couple of days without having the stand-up and see if
                                      anything breaks. Then try a week. Then try a whole Sprint. Retrospect
                                      after each attempt and find out what works best for your team. Many
                                      teams find that having the stand-up every day is crucial, but some
                                      only need to do it once a week, or never.

                                      (P.S. I know that some of you don't agree with this advice, but I
                                      recommend you try it *then* I'll listen to what you have to say about
                                      it ;-)
                                    • Angela Martin
                                      ... I have done this before too :) An alternative is to simply draw people s attention to what is happening, this can often be enough to help break a habit.
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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                                        >> I am the Scrum Master for one such “radically co-located team” and am having a hard >> time breaking the feeling that the team is reporting to me, rather than to each other.
                                        >
                                        > I'm a fan of the ScrumMaster leaving the room in such situations.  Get them in a tight
                                        > circle around the taskboard, ask someone to keep track of impediments for you, and
                                        > stand outside the door.

                                        I have done this before too :)

                                        An alternative is to simply draw people's attention to what is
                                        happening, this can often be enough to help break a habit.

                                        Another thing to ponder might be, why? Is what you are seeing a
                                        symptom of something deeper. And if so, what might be the underlying
                                        cause?

                                        Cheers,
                                        Angela

                                        > --mj
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        >
                                        > To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
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                                        >
                                        >



                                        --
                                        Angela Martin

                                        Department of Computer Science
                                        The University of Waikato, New Zealand
                                        p : +64 21 855 888 or +64 7 838 4768
                                        e : angela@...
                                        w : http://www.martinitconsulting.com
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