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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum Certification Exams

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  • Heitor Roriz Filho
    Steve, I am not a formal representative of the SA. I own a CSM and a CSP certifications and work and train Scrum since 2005. What I can give you is my personal
    Message 1 of 58 , Jul 31, 2010
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      Steve, I am not a formal representative of the SA. I own a CSM and a CSP certifications and work and train Scrum since 2005.
      What I can give you is my personal opinion about certifications. They are just a reminder that you either attended a course (or sometimes not even that) or studied to pass an exam, like in school.

      The SA does not sell certifications per se therefore you need to attend a CSM course to get certified. This is due to the fact that the SA deals with values, feel by doing.

      Heitor

      On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Steven Janvrin <sjanvrin@...> wrote:
       

      Heitor - as a representative of the Scrum Alliance can you provide the level of clarify on your organization's certification exam strategy that Alex did previously for Scrum.org?

      From: hroriz@...
      Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:54:21 -0300

      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum Certification Exams

       
      Hi Michael,

      On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 10:57 PM, Michael Sync <mchlsync@...> wrote:
       


      Hi Heitor,

      Thanks a lot.. I'm assuming that you might be from Scrum Alliance. 


      Yes I am ;-) 


      I always want to talk with someone from Scrum Alliance and find out the reason behind the requirement of exam. The feedback that I gave earlier is not just from me. There are a lot of people who agreed with me. You can probably google it. :) 

      What would be Scrum.org's or PMI's reason behind the requirement of exam?
       

      >>What is an exam capable of measuring, in terms of what is really needed to learn Scrum?

      IMO, Three-days scrum course is not needed to learn Scrum.. 

      You think "learning Scrum" is passing an exam?
       

      There are a lot of people who are familiar with scrum or using scrum without attending any course. (Of course, they all read books and learn from real experience...)   Do you think that they don't have ability to sit the exam and get certified without attending the course? Or Do you think that their skills are useless compared to those who attended three-day course? Or that exam is not good enough to measure the people's scrum skill that's why we are asked to take the course? Or, Is it just that you guys like to create a business model for scrum-certified trainers?

      I mean, I just like to know the reason behind this... It doesn't make any sense to me.

      It is because you understand Scrum solely as a process, unfortunately. Take a look at http://agilethinking.net/ or http://agilethinking.net/welfareCSM/. This is just one example of CSTs with a different view. 

      What does an exam certifies? If you do it only to have a certification I would say go for scrum.org as their model is more class-exam like.  Or check net objectives, they have lots of certifications, good ones by the way. This is their business model, ScrumAlliance has its own: this is healthy and essential as both organization need to live in the market.
       
      Regards
      Heitor




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    • Michael Sync
      ... does not seem to have an end in sight, and which is not convincing anyone of the opposite point of view very much. Okay, Roy. I will stop here. :) Hi Ron,
      Message 58 of 58 , Aug 1, 2010
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        >>So guys, how about we cease cluttering the airwaves with this topic, which does not seem to have an end in sight, and which is not convincing anyone of the opposite point of view very much. 

        Okay, Roy. I will stop here. :) 

        Hi Ron,

        I still have an answer for your question.. I will directly email you... :) 

        Thanks and Best Regards,
        Michael Sync

        Don't go the way life takes you.
        Take life the way you go

        http://michaelsync.net


        On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 9:33 PM, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
         

        Frankly, I think this whole stream of conversation, which has generated more network traffic than any other topic, is rather irrelevant and adds nothing to the general body of knowledge.
         
        It is nionsense to ask if 'a course' is better than experience, because the quality of both the course and the experience can vary so much. A good, informative course is valuable for those who are interested in being informed. Reading books written by authoratative authors is a good way to learn, and get ideas, and indeed get inspiration. Having experience under the guidance of an experienced practitioner is pretty good too. Having experience all on your own may not be very useful, or may be quite useful, depending on the circumstances.
         
        There are many professional bodies around the world that it is compulsory to belong to if you are in a particular profession, and many that is is highly desirable to belong to. These have professional training requirements and exams, sometimes statutorally imposed. But, to be honest, I do not think the Scrum Alliance or any other 'Scrum body' has yet gained the general and professional acceptance to be able to be counted amongst those other professional bodies. I say this with all due respect to Ron and Ken et al who have lead our efforts intellectually and practically for a long time.
         
        As an educator, principally, I can see the usefulness and limitations on formal learning, and formal assessment. I have often been told by students that "I have learned more in the 6 months I have been working than you taught me in 3 years of my degree". Yeah, sure! The work experience is in a narrower area of endeavour, and the degree course never claimed to be a work-preparation training course. But this does demonstrate, in my view, that there is value in both. Unfortunately many students in university courses see that the object is to get a degree with as little learning as is possible. Most of the time a university course is the opportunity to have first sex, first beer, and first radical politics (particulary to attract the chicks). So attitude and intent definitely come into any discussion about experience versus training and so on.
         
        So guys, how about we cease cluttering the airwaves with this topic, which does not seem to have an end in sight, and which is not convincing anyone of the opposite point of view very much.
         
        Regards,
        Roy Morien
         
        > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        > From: ronjeffries@...
        > Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 08:44:11 -0400


        > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum Certification Exams
        >
        > Hello, Michael. On Sunday, August 1, 2010, at 12:31:19 AM, you
        > wrote:
        >
        > >>> Some important parts of Scrum may not be testable knowledge
        >
        > > What important part of Scrum are not testable?
        >
        > The most important part is "what will you actually do in a given
        > situation?" No written test can ever get that information.
        >
        > > There are different types of questions. Some can be based on
        > > scenario, Some can be multiple choice, short essay and etc.. So,
        > > IMO, everything are testable in some way or other.
        >
        > Please send us an outline of a written test on juggling that will
        > tell us accurately how well you can juggle.
        >
        > Ron Jeffries
        > www.XProgramming.com
        > www.xprogramming.com/blog
        > You have to either laugh or cry. -- Bill Rogers
        >
        >
        >
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