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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Product Owner and Planning Poker?

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  • Ron Jeffries
    Hello, tri.nguyen09. On Thursday, July 22, 2010, at 10:22:18 AM, ... Should they be there? Yes, to explain what they meant. Should they estimate? No, not
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 22, 2010
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      Hello, tri.nguyen09. On Thursday, July 22, 2010, at 10:22:18 AM,
      you wrote:

      > Should a PO participate in this process? And what pros/cons have
      > you seen if they have participated?

      Should they be there? Yes, to explain what they meant.

      Should they estimate? No, not unless they are planning to code it.

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      www.xprogramming.com/blog
      For me, XP ain't out there, it's in here. -- Bill Caputo
    • Jack Milunsky
      Best to have the PO participate to help answer questions about scope etc. I PO that participates is good as he has skin in the game and I think the team would
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 22, 2010
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        Best to have the PO participate to help answer questions about scope etc. I PO that participates is good as he has skin in the game and I think the team would appreciate that.

        Jack
        www.agilebuddy.com
        blog.agilebuddy.com

        On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:22 PM, tri.nguyen09 <tmn731@...> wrote:
         

        Should a PO participate in this process? And what pros/cons have you seen if they have participated?

        Thanks,
        Tri




        --
        Jack Milunsky
        Agilebuddy.com

        Cell: +1.416.302.5937
        E-mail: jack@...
        Web Site: www.agilebuddy.com
        Blog: blog.agilebuddy.com
        Twitter: twitter.com/agilebuddy

      • Mark Levison
        ... Agreed. ... I m unclear are you suggesting the PO estimate? That seems odd, in fact I think its called ScrumBut or PlanningPokerBut :-) Seriously its not
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 22, 2010
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          On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Jack Milunsky <jack@...> wrote:
           

          Best to have the PO participate to help answer questions about scope etc.

          Agreed. 

          I PO that participates is good as he has skin in the game and I think the team would appreciate that.

          I'm unclear are you suggesting the PO estimate? That seems odd, in fact I think its called ScrumBut or PlanningPokerBut :-)

          Seriously its not planning poker if someone not doing the work participates in the estimation.

          Cheers
          Mark Levison

        • JackM
          Nope, the PO does not estimate. But he participates as a sounding board for the team to ask questions. Just being there is skin in the game and shows that he
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 22, 2010
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            Nope, the PO does not estimate. But he participates as a sounding board for the team to ask questions.

            Just being there is skin in the game and shows that he is part of the team.

            Jack
            www.agilebuddy.com
            blog.agilebuddy.com

            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Jack Milunsky <jack@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > Best to have the PO participate to help answer questions about scope etc.
            > >
            > Agreed.
            >
            > > I PO that participates is good as he has skin in the game and I think the
            > > team would appreciate that.
            > >
            > I'm unclear are you suggesting the PO estimate? That seems odd, in fact I
            > think its called ScrumBut or PlanningPokerBut :-)
            >
            > Seriously its not planning poker if someone not doing the work participates
            > in the estimation.
            >
            > Cheers
            > Mark Levison
            > *Mark Levison* | Agile Pain Relief
            > Consulting<http://agilepainrelief.com/>| Agile
            > Editor @ InfoQ <http://www.infoq.com/about.jsp>
            > Blog <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/> |
            > Twitter<http://twitter.com/mlevison>| Office: (613) 862-2538
            > Recent Entries: Self Inflicted Agile
            > Injuries<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/12/self-inflicted-agile-injuries.html>,
            > Why use an Agile
            > Coach<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/11/why-use-an-agile-coach.html>
            >
          • Dan Rawsthorne
            Quite so. The Team owns its efforts. The PO should not be involved things that are involved in the Team s commitments. Unless, as Ron points out, the PO is
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 22, 2010
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              Quite so. The Team owns its efforts. The PO should not be involved
              things that are involved in the Team's commitments. Unless, as Ron
              points out, the PO is also a a developer...

              Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
              Senior Trainer/Coach, CollabNet
              drawsthorne@..., 425-269-8628



              Ron Jeffries wrote:
              >
              > Hello, tri.nguyen09. On Thursday, July 22, 2010, at 10:22:18 AM,
              > you wrote:
              >
              > > Should a PO participate in this process? And what pros/cons have
              > > you seen if they have participated?
              >
              > Should they be there? Yes, to explain what they meant.
              >
              > Should they estimate? No, not unless they are planning to code it.
              >
              > Ron Jeffries
              > www.XProgramming.com
              > www.xprogramming.com/blog
              > For me, XP ain't out there, it's in here. -- Bill Caputo
              >
              >
            • Dan Rawsthorne
              This is an interesting issue. The PO has more skin the game than anyone else, but must trust the Team Members that actually do the work to to commit to what
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 22, 2010
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                This is an interesting issue. The PO has more skin the game than anyone
                else, but must trust the Team Members that actually do the work to to
                commit to what they can actually do. When the PO is actually one of the
                people who does the work it gets interesting. But, like others, he/she
                shouldn't be part of the effort estimations on things he/she won't be
                working on. It's an interesting issue...

                Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
                Senior Trainer/Coach, CollabNet
                drawsthorne@..., 425-269-8628



                Mark Levison wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Jack Milunsky <jack@...
                > <mailto:jack@...>> wrote:
                >
                > Best to have the PO participate to help answer questions about
                > scope etc.
                >
                > Agreed.
                >
                > I PO that participates is good as he has skin in the game and I
                > think the team would appreciate that.
                >
                > I'm unclear are you suggesting the PO estimate? That seems odd, in
                > fact I think its called ScrumBut or PlanningPokerBut :-)
                >
                > Seriously its not planning poker if someone not doing the work
                > participates in the estimation.
                >
                > Cheers
                > Mark Levison
                >
                >
                > *Mark Levison* | Agile Pain Relief Consulting
                > <http://agilepainrelief.com/> | Agile Editor @ InfoQ
                > <http://www.infoq.com/about.jsp>
                > Blog <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/> | Twitter
                > <http://twitter.com/mlevison> | Office: (613) 862-2538
                > Recent Entries: Self Inflicted Agile Injuries
                > <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/12/self-inflicted-agile-injuries.html>,
                > Why use an Agile Coach
                > <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/11/why-use-an-agile-coach.html>
                >
                >
                >
              • Dan Rawsthorne
                Remember that the PO is a role, and a person. The person may play other roles and, in those roles, may be part of effort estimation. It is everybody s
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 22, 2010
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                  Remember that the PO is a role, and a person. The person may play other
                  roles and, in those roles, may be part of effort estimation. It is
                  everybody's responsibility to live the values, and respecting the PO's
                  ability to do the "right" thing is everybody's responsibility.

                  Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
                  Senior Trainer/Coach, CollabNet
                  drawsthorne@..., 425-269-8628



                  JackM wrote:
                  >
                  > Nope, the PO does not estimate. But he participates as a sounding
                  > board for the team to ask questions.
                  >
                  > Just being there is skin in the game and shows that he is part of the
                  > team.
                  >
                  > Jack
                  > www.agilebuddy.com
                  > blog.agilebuddy.com
                  >
                  > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>, Mark Levison <mark@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Jack Milunsky <jack@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Best to have the PO participate to help answer questions about
                  > scope etc.
                  > > >
                  > > Agreed.
                  > >
                  > > > I PO that participates is good as he has skin in the game and I
                  > think the
                  > > > team would appreciate that.
                  > > >
                  > > I'm unclear are you suggesting the PO estimate? That seems odd, in
                  > fact I
                  > > think its called ScrumBut or PlanningPokerBut :-)
                  > >
                  > > Seriously its not planning poker if someone not doing the work
                  > participates
                  > > in the estimation.
                  > >
                  > > Cheers
                  > > Mark Levison
                  > > *Mark Levison* | Agile Pain Relief
                  > > Consulting<http://agilepainrelief.com/>| Agile
                  > > Editor @ InfoQ <http://www.infoq.com/about.jsp>
                  > > Blog <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/> |
                  > > Twitter<http://twitter.com/mlevison>| Office: (613) 862-2538
                  > > Recent Entries: Self Inflicted Agile
                  > >
                  > Injuries<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/12/self-inflicted-agile-injuries.html>,
                  > > Why use an Agile
                  > >
                  > Coach<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/11/why-use-an-agile-coach.html>
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                • Michael Yip
                  PO needs to articulate what the customers/users want to the team to set the scope. If the scope was not articulated to the team, how could the team know how to
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 22, 2010
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                    PO needs to articulate what the customers/users want to the team to set the scope. If the scope was not articulated to the team, how could the team know how to size the story? PO does not participate in sizing other that to set the scope for the team to estimate base on what the PO understood the customers/users want/need at that moment through the set of criteria/COS.

                    Michael


                    --- On Thu, 7/22/10, Hiren <hirendoshi73@...> wrote:

                    From: Hiren <hirendoshi73@...>
                    Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Product Owner and Planning Poker?
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, July 22, 2010, 12:43 PM

                     

                    Interesting Mark.

                    Here's my experience.
                    If PO participates in estimation, he can set correct expectations with the team. I have seen on plenty of occasions where PO requests a feature thinking it's only a small change in the product, but eventually gets disappointed since the feature took much longer than what he anticipated.

                    Estimation via planning poker helps everyone in the team including the PO to talk a common language. If PO thinks certain item is 2 story points and the team thinks certain item is 8 story points, then PO is educated correctly by the team on why the item is 8 points instead of 2. This is the biggest positive I have seen with PO attending the planning poker session.

                    Hiren Doshi
                    www.practiceagile.com

                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:22 PM, tri.nguyen09 <tmn731@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Should a PO participate in this process?
                    > >
                    > Be part of the discussion around the details of each story, of course that's
                    > their job. Estimate? Hell no. Lets just pretend for a second that they do
                    > estimate - would they want to estimate low i.e. everything is 0, 1, 2 or 3
                    > :-)
                    >
                    > Seriously only people who're doers should be involved in the estimation.
                    >
                    > Cheers
                    > Mark Levison
                    > *Mark Levison* | Agile Pain Relief
                    > Consulting<http://agilepainrelief.com/>| Agile
                    > Editor @ InfoQ <http://www.infoq.com/about.jsp>
                    > Blog <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/> |
                    > Twitter<http://twitter.com/mlevison>| Office: (613) 862-2538
                    > Recent Entries: Self Inflicted Agile
                    > Injuries<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/12/self-inflicted-agile-injuries.html>,
                    > Why use an Agile
                    > Coach<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/11/why-use-an-agile-coach.html>
                    >

                  • Dan Rawsthorne
                    This is a common view of the PO as a glorified analyst of some sort. Remember that the PO s job is to be the final arbiter on prioritization, not to be the
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 22, 2010
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                      This is a common view of the PO as a glorified analyst of some sort.
                      Remember that the PO's job is to be the final arbiter on prioritization,
                      not to be the SME. There must be a SME, of course, but it need not be
                      the PO. And, whoever is the SME, in the role of SME, could certainly be
                      involved in the effort estimation, as he/she will certainly be involved
                      in the work - if only as a go-between with the Stakeholders.

                      Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
                      Senior Trainer/Coach, CollabNet
                      drawsthorne@..., 425-269-8628



                      Michael Yip wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > PO needs to articulate what the customers/users want to the team to
                      > set the scope. If the scope was not articulated to the team, how could
                      > the team know how to size the story? PO does not participate in sizing
                      > other that to set the scope for the team to estimate base on what the
                      > PO understood the customers/users want/need at that moment through the
                      > set of criteria/COS.
                      >
                      > Michael
                      >
                      >
                      > --- On *Thu, 7/22/10, Hiren /<hirendoshi73@...>/* wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Hiren <hirendoshi73@...>
                      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Product Owner and Planning Poker?
                      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Thursday, July 22, 2010, 12:43 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Interesting Mark.
                      >
                      > Here's my experience.
                      > If PO participates in estimation, he can set correct expectations
                      > with the team. I have seen on plenty of occasions where PO
                      > requests a feature thinking it's only a small change in the
                      > product, but eventually gets disappointed since the feature took
                      > much longer than what he anticipated.
                      >
                      > Estimation via planning poker helps everyone in the team including
                      > the PO to talk a common language. If PO thinks certain item is 2
                      > story points and the team thinks certain item is 8 story points,
                      > then PO is educated correctly by the team on why the item is 8
                      > points instead of 2. This is the biggest positive I have seen with
                      > PO attending the planning poker session.
                      >
                      > Hiren Doshi
                      > www.practiceagile.com
                      >
                      > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      > </mc/compose?to=scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>, Mark Levison
                      > <mark@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:22 PM, tri.nguyen09 <tmn731@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Should a PO participate in this process?
                      > > >
                      > > Be part of the discussion around the details of each story, of
                      > course that's
                      > > their job. Estimate? Hell no. Lets just pretend for a second
                      > that they do
                      > > estimate - would they want to estimate low i.e. everything is 0,
                      > 1, 2 or 3
                      > > :-)
                      > >
                      > > Seriously only people who're doers should be involved in the
                      > estimation.
                      > >
                      > > Cheers
                      > > Mark Levison
                      > > *Mark Levison* | Agile Pain Relief
                      > > Consulting<http://agilepainrelief.com/
                      > <http://agilepainrelief.com/>>| Agile
                      > > Editor @ InfoQ <http://www.infoq.com/about.jsp
                      > <http://www.infoq.com/about.jsp>>
                      > > Blog <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                      > <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/>> |
                      > > Twitter<http://twitter.com/mlevison
                      > <http://twitter.com/mlevison>>| Office: (613) 862-2538
                      > > Recent Entries: Self Inflicted Agile
                      > >
                      > Injuries<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/12/self-inflicted-agile-injuries.html
                      > <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/12/self-inflicted-agile-injuries.html>>,
                      > > Why use an Agile
                      > >
                      > Coach<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/11/why-use-an-agile-coach.html
                      > <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/11/why-use-an-agile-coach.html>>
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                    • Bachan Anand
                      they way I see it , if the team cannot trust the PO and the other way around that is a dysfunction in itself and is not sustainable in the long run.If the PO
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 23, 2010
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                        they way I see it , if the team cannot trust the PO and the other way around that is a dysfunction in itself and is not sustainable in the long run.If the PO participating in the estimation brings the story points down , that show the that there is still lack of transparency , trust and empowerment in that the team.

                        Having said that does the PO have to participate in estimation unless her or she is participating in development ?

                        On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:37 AM, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
                         



                        On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:22 PM, tri.nguyen09 <tmn731@...> wrote:
                         

                        Should a PO participate in this process?

                        Be part of the discussion around the details of each story, of course that's their job. Estimate? Hell no. Lets just pretend for a second that they do estimate - would they want to estimate low i.e. everything is 0, 1, 2 or 3 :-)

                        Seriously only people who're doers should be involved in the estimation.

                        Cheers
                        Mark Levison


                      • Peter Stevens (cal)
                        Hi Bachan, I agree with your observation. The Scrum Guide is unambiguous on the role of Product Owner and Team in estimating: The Team is responsible for all
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 23, 2010
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                          Hi Bachan,

                          I agree with your observation.

                          The Scrum Guide is unambiguous on the role of Product Owner and Team in estimating: "The Team is
                          responsible for all estimates. The Product Owner may influence the Team by helping understand and
                          select trade-offs, but the final estimate is made by the Team." If the P-O isn't there, this
                          understanding is not going to occur.

                          On a related topic, I met an Agile (not specifically Scrum) Coach who said, "we invite the customer
                          to participate in planning poker. The estimate is about complexity of a problem, not the work to
                          solve it. So the customer -- who is actually solving the problem today -- is well positioned to
                          understand and discuss the complexity of any particular story."

                          Anyone tried this approach? How well did it work?

                          Cheers,
                          Peter


                          On 23.07.10 11:14, Bachan Anand wrote:
                          > they way I see it , if the team cannot trust the PO and the other way around
                          > that is a dysfunction in itself and is not sustainable in the long run.If
                          > the PO participating in the estimation brings the story points down , that
                          > show the that there is still lack of transparency , trust and empowerment in
                          > that the team.
                          >
                          > Having said that does the PO have to participate in estimation unless her or
                          > she is participating in development ?
                          >
                          > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:37 AM, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:22 PM, tri.nguyen09 <tmn731@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> Should a PO participate in this process?
                          >>>
                          >> Be part of the discussion around the details of each story, of course
                          >> that's their job. Estimate? Hell no. Lets just pretend for a second that
                          >> they do estimate - would they want to estimate low i.e. everything is 0, 1,
                          >> 2 or 3 :-)
                          >>
                          >> Seriously only people who're doers should be involved in the estimation.
                          >>
                          >> Cheers
                          >> Mark Levison
                          >> *Mark Levison* | Agile Pain Relief Consulting<http://agilepainrelief.com/>| Agile
                          >> Editor @ InfoQ <http://www.infoq.com/about.jsp>
                          >> Blog <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/> | Twitter<http://twitter.com/mlevison>| Office: (613) 862-2538
                          >> Recent Entries: Self Inflicted Agile Injuries<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/12/self-inflicted-agile-injuries.html>,
                          >> Why use an Agile Coach<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/11/why-use-an-agile-coach.html>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >


                          --
                          Lean Agile Scrum Konferenz in Zürich mit Mary Poppendieck und Henrik Kniberg.
                          Schlagen Sie die Brücke von Scrum Team bis zum schlanken Unternehmen!
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                        • Ron Jeffries
                          ... I would have to ask James Grenning his opinion on that. In any case, a better question to address might be does this work well rather than whether it s
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 23, 2010
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                            Hello, Mark. On Thursday, July 22, 2010, at 9:17:15 PM, you wrote:

                            > I'm unclear are you suggesting the PO estimate? That seems odd, in fact I
                            > think its called ScrumBut or PlanningPokerBut :-)

                            > Seriously its not planning poker if someone not doing the work participates
                            > in the estimation.

                            I would have to ask James Grenning his opinion on that. In any case,
                            a better question to address might be "does this work well" rather
                            than whether it's Scrum or Planning Poker as defined by some guy who
                            isn't on the team doing the work ...

                            Ron Jeffries
                            www.XProgramming.com
                            www.xprogramming.com/blog
                            And thirdly, the Code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules.
                            -- Barbossa
                          • Bachan Anand
                            ... In my experience the value created by planning poker is to have a dialogue amongst the people who are part of solving the problem and also come arrive at
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 23, 2010
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                              On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
                               



                              On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Jack Milunsky <jack@...> wrote:
                               

                              Best to have the PO participate to help answer questions about scope etc.

                              Agreed. 

                              I PO that participates is good as he has skin in the game and I think the team would appreciate that.

                              I'm unclear are you suggesting the PO estimate? That seems odd, in fact I think its called ScrumBut or PlanningPokerBut :-)

                              Seriously its not planning poker if someone not doing the work participates in the estimation.

                              In my experience the  value created by planning poker is to have a dialogue amongst the people who are part of solving the problem and also come arrive at a  relative sizing , I find more value in the discussion around understanding the problem to be solved  and the value of sizing is mainly for future planning . I am not quite sure what value is compromised both from a planning poker perspective or from a Scrum perspective if PO participate in story sizing.
                               

                              Cheers
                              Mark Levison


                            • Ron Jeffries
                              ... I believe that people may be concerned that the PO would influence the estimates unduly. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com www.xprogramming.com/blog I m
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 23, 2010
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                                Hello, Bachan. On Friday, July 23, 2010, at 4:11:57 AM, you wrote:

                                > I am not quite sure what value is compromised both
                                > from a planning poker perspective or from a Scrum perspective if PO
                                > participate in story sizing.

                                I believe that people may be concerned that the PO would influence
                                the estimates unduly.

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
                                www.xprogramming.com/blog
                                I'm giving the best advice I have. You get to decide whether it's true for you.
                              • Bachan Anand
                                ... Thanks Ron for the clarification.Question that come to my mind is , If there is a concern that PO would influence the estimates , where else would those
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 23, 2010
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                                  On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 3:21 AM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                                  Hello, Bachan.  On Friday, July 23, 2010, at 4:11:57 AM, you wrote:

                                  > I am not quite sure what value is compromised both
                                  > from a planning poker perspective or from a Scrum perspective if PO
                                  > participate in story sizing.

                                  I believe that people may be concerned that the PO would influence
                                  the estimates unduly.

                                  Thanks Ron for the clarification.Question that come to my mind is ,  If there is a concern that PO would influence the estimates , where else would those concerns about the PO role show up and impact the team and PO relationship? Should we keep PO away from story sizing or look deeper into why behind  PO influencing the estimates?
                                   
                                  I'm giving the best advice I have. You get to decide whether it's true for you.



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                                • A Narasimhan
                                  I have also come across this situation many times during coaching. My advice was for the PO to explain the story and clarify any points further so that the
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 23, 2010
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                                    I have also come across this situation many times during coaching. My advice was for the PO to explain the story and clarify any points further so that the team does re-estimate if required, rather than suggesting an estimate.
                                    -AN

                                    Dan Rawsthorne wrote:
                                     

                                    This is a common view of the PO as a glorified analyst of some sort.
                                    Remember that the PO's job is to be the final arbiter on prioritization,
                                    not to be the SME. There must be a SME, of course, but it need not be
                                    the PO. And, whoever is the SME, in the role of SME, could certainly be
                                    involved in the effort estimation, as he/she will certainly be involved
                                    in the work - if only as a go-between with the Stakeholders.

                                    Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
                                    Senior Trainer/Coach, CollabNet
                                    drawsthorne@..., 425-269-8628

                                    Michael Yip wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > PO needs to articulate what the customers/users want to the team to
                                    > set the scope. If the scope was not articulated to the team, how could
                                    > the team know how to size the story? PO does not participate in sizing
                                    > other that to set the scope for the team to estimate base on what the
                                    > PO understood the customers/users want/need at that moment through the
                                    > set of criteria/COS.
                                    >
                                    > Michael
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- On *Thu, 7/22/10, Hiren /<hirendoshi73@...>/* wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: Hiren <hirendoshi73@...>
                                    > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Product Owner and Planning Poker?
                                    > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Date: Thursday, July 22, 2010, 12:43 PM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Interesting Mark.
                                    >
                                    > Here's my experience.
                                    > If PO participates in estimation, he can set correct expectations
                                    > with the team. I have seen on plenty of occasions where PO
                                    > requests a feature thinking it's only a small change in the
                                    > product, but eventually gets disappointed since the feature took
                                    > much longer than what he anticipated.
                                    >
                                    > Estimation via planning poker helps everyone in the team including
                                    > the PO to talk a common language. If PO thinks certain item is 2
                                    > story points and the team thinks certain item is 8 story points,
                                    > then PO is educated correctly by the team on why the item is 8
                                    > points instead of 2. This is the biggest positive I have seen with
                                    > PO attending the planning poker session.
                                    >
                                    > Hiren Doshi
                                    > www.practiceagile.com
                                    >
                                    > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    > </mc/compose?to=scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>, Mark Levison
                                    > <mark@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:22 PM, tri.nguyen09 <tmn731@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Should a PO participate in this process?
                                    > > >
                                    > > Be part of the discussion around the details of each story, of
                                    > course that's
                                    > > their job. Estimate? Hell no. Lets just pretend for a second
                                    > that they do
                                    > > estimate - would they want to estimate low i.e. everything is 0,
                                    > 1, 2 or 3
                                    > > :-)
                                    > >
                                    > > Seriously only people who're doers should be involved in the
                                    > estimation.
                                    > >
                                    > > Cheers
                                    > > Mark Levison
                                    > > *Mark Levison* | Agile Pain Relief
                                    > > Consulting<http://agilepainrelief.com/
                                    > <http://agilepainrelief.com/>>| Agile
                                    > > Editor @ InfoQ <http://www.infoq.com/about.jsp
                                    > <http://www.infoq.com/about.jsp>>
                                    > > Blog <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/
                                    > <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/>> |
                                    > > Twitter<http://twitter.com/mlevison
                                    > <http://twitter.com/mlevison>>| Office: (613) 862-2538
                                    > > Recent Entries: Self Inflicted Agile
                                    > >
                                    > Injuries<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/12/self-inflicted-agile-injuries.html
                                    > <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/12/self-inflicted-agile-injuries.html>>,
                                    > > Why use an Agile
                                    > >
                                    > Coach<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/11/why-use-an-agile-coach.html
                                    > <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/11/why-use-an-agile-coach.html>>
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >


                                  • Mark Levison
                                    ... But we ve be around this several times recently. Planning Poker as described by Mike Cohn is an estimation of effort, not complexity. It s a proxy for time
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jul 23, 2010
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                                      On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 5:37 AM, Peter Stevens (cal) <peterstev@...> wrote:
                                      Hi Bachan,

                                      On a related topic, I met an Agile (not specifically Scrum) Coach who said, "we invite the customer
                                      to participate in planning poker. The estimate is about complexity of a problem, not the work to
                                      solve it. So the customer -- who is actually solving the problem today -- is well positioned to
                                      understand and discuss the complexity of any particular story."

                                      But we've be around this several times recently. Planning Poker as described by Mike Cohn is an estimation of effort, not complexity. It's a proxy for time no more. Complexity factors in because it requires more effort.

                                      Cheers
                                      Mark Levison
                                    • Peter Stevens (cal)
                                      ... Hi Mark, OK, philosophically it s wrong (that was also my feedback). Has anybody done it anyway? What were the results - quality of understanding, impact
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jul 23, 2010
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                                        On 23.07.10 13:43, Mark Levison wrote:

                                        >
                                        > But we've be around this several times recently. Planning Poker as described
                                        > by Mike Cohn is an estimation of effort, not complexity. It's a proxy for
                                        > time no more. Complexity factors in because it requires more effort.
                                        >
                                        > Cheers
                                        > Mark Levison
                                        >

                                        Hi Mark,

                                        OK, philosophically it's wrong (that was also my feedback). Has anybody done it anyway? What were
                                        the results - quality of understanding, impact on team dynamics, impact on the estimates...?

                                        Cheers,

                                        Peter


                                        --
                                        Lean Agile Scrum Konferenz in Zürich mit Mary Poppendieck und Henrik Kniberg.
                                        Schlagen Sie die Brücke von Scrum Team bis zum schlanken Unternehmen!
                                        http://bit.ly/las-zh

                                        Peter Stevens, CSM, CSPO, CSP
                                        Independent Scrum Trainer and Coach
                                        Sierra-Charlie Consulting | Zurich | Switzerland

                                        Member of DasScrumTeam.de

                                        blog: http://scrum-breakfast.com
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                                        skype: peterstev
                                      • Dan Rawsthorne
                                        Yes, and what makes it interesting is that the Scrum Guide also says that the PO may be a member of the Development Team. Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST Senior
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jul 23, 2010
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                                          Yes, and what makes it interesting is that the Scrum Guide also says
                                          that the PO may be a member of the Development Team.

                                          Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
                                          Senior Trainer/Coach, CollabNet
                                          drawsthorne@..., 425-269-8628



                                          Peter Stevens (cal) wrote:
                                          > Hi Bachan,
                                          >
                                          > I agree with your observation.
                                          >
                                          > The Scrum Guide is unambiguous on the role of Product Owner and Team in estimating: "The Team is
                                          > responsible for all estimates. The Product Owner may influence the Team by helping understand and
                                          > select trade-offs, but the final estimate is made by the Team." If the P-O isn't there, this
                                          > understanding is not going to occur.
                                          >
                                          > On a related topic, I met an Agile (not specifically Scrum) Coach who said, "we invite the customer
                                          > to participate in planning poker. The estimate is about complexity of a problem, not the work to
                                          > solve it. So the customer -- who is actually solving the problem today -- is well positioned to
                                          > understand and discuss the complexity of any particular story."
                                          >
                                          > Anyone tried this approach? How well did it work?
                                          >
                                          > Cheers,
                                          > Peter
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On 23.07.10 11:14, Bachan Anand wrote:
                                          >
                                          >> they way I see it , if the team cannot trust the PO and the other way around
                                          >> that is a dysfunction in itself and is not sustainable in the long run.If
                                          >> the PO participating in the estimation brings the story points down , that
                                          >> show the that there is still lack of transparency , trust and empowerment in
                                          >> that the team.
                                          >>
                                          >> Having said that does the PO have to participate in estimation unless her or
                                          >> she is participating in development ?
                                          >>
                                          >> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:37 AM, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>>
                                          >>>
                                          >>> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:22 PM, tri.nguyen09 <tmn731@...> wrote:
                                          >>>
                                          >>>
                                          >>>> Should a PO participate in this process?
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>>
                                          >>> Be part of the discussion around the details of each story, of course
                                          >>> that's their job. Estimate? Hell no. Lets just pretend for a second that
                                          >>> they do estimate - would they want to estimate low i.e. everything is 0, 1,
                                          >>> 2 or 3 :-)
                                          >>>
                                          >>> Seriously only people who're doers should be involved in the estimation.
                                          >>>
                                          >>> Cheers
                                          >>> Mark Levison
                                          >>> *Mark Levison* | Agile Pain Relief Consulting<http://agilepainrelief.com/>| Agile
                                          >>> Editor @ InfoQ <http://www.infoq.com/about.jsp>
                                          >>> Blog <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/> | Twitter<http://twitter.com/mlevison>| Office: (613) 862-2538
                                          >>> Recent Entries: Self Inflicted Agile Injuries<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/12/self-inflicted-agile-injuries.html>,
                                          >>> Why use an Agile Coach<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/11/why-use-an-agile-coach.html>
                                          >>>
                                          >>>
                                          >>>
                                          >>>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Dan Rawsthorne
                                          You don t want non-developers influencing the Team s commitments. If the Team s commitments are based on Story Size, then you wouldn t want non-developers
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jul 23, 2010
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                                            You don't want non-developers influencing the Team's commitments. If the
                                            Team's commitments are based on Story Size, then you wouldn't want
                                            non-developers helping estimate Story Size. If the Team is doing
                                            commitment-based planning based on the realities of the acceptance and
                                            doneness criteria, it's much less of a problem.

                                            Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
                                            Senior Trainer/Coach, CollabNet
                                            drawsthorne@..., 425-269-8628



                                            Ron Jeffries wrote:
                                            > Hello, Bachan. On Friday, July 23, 2010, at 4:11:57 AM, you wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >> I am not quite sure what value is compromised both
                                            >> from a planning poker perspective or from a Scrum perspective if PO
                                            >> participate in story sizing.
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            > I believe that people may be concerned that the PO would influence
                                            > the estimates unduly.
                                            >
                                            > Ron Jeffries
                                            > www.XProgramming.com
                                            > www.xprogramming.com/blog
                                            > I'm giving the best advice I have. You get to decide whether it's true for you.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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                                          • Bachan Anand
                                            Mark, ... In my experience complexity is discussed and effort is estimated as part of planning poker activity. I am still note sure whether PO participating
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jul 23, 2010
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                                              Mark,

                                              On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 4:43 AM, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
                                               



                                              On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 5:37 AM, Peter Stevens (cal) <peterstev@...> wrote:
                                              Hi Bachan,


                                              On a related topic, I met an Agile (not specifically Scrum) Coach who said, "we invite the customer
                                              to participate in planning poker. The estimate is about complexity of a problem, not the work to
                                              solve it. So the customer -- who is actually solving the problem today -- is well positioned to
                                              understand and discuss the complexity of any particular story."

                                              But we've be around this several times recently. Planning Poker as described by Mike Cohn is an estimation of effort, not complexity. It's a proxy for time no more. Complexity factors in because it requires more effort.


                                              In my experience complexity is discussed and effort is estimated as part of planning poker activity.  I am still note sure whether PO participating in planning poker in itself is a concern when working with a framework that has transparency and collaboration as part of it's core values and principles.

                                              Cheers
                                              Mark Levison

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