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Certified Scrum Tester

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  • Markus Gaertner
    Yesterday I researched the topic of the CSD. Being a tester, one thing that interested me was how to get certified as a tester for Scrum. Valueing a
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 30, 2010
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      Yesterday I researched the topic of the CSD. Being a tester, one thing that
      interested me was how to get certified as a tester for Scrum. Valueing a
      cross-functional team inside Scrum, I was wondering how programmers and testers
      get integrated on the certification level.

      The only thing I found was part of the description for the Certified Scrum
      Developer:

      CSD Qualifications

      At least five days of formal training are required to earn a Certified Scrum
      Developer (CSD) credential. CSD applicants must also demonstrate an
      understanding of agile engineering practices by taking and passing a formal CSD
      assessment.
      - At least three days must be technical training through one or more of the
      CSD-eligible courses.
      - At least one of the five days must be dedicated to the study of Scrum in a
      CSD-eligible course.
      - The fifth day is an elective. You can choose from among the CSD-eligible
      courses to develop the skills you feel would benefit you the most in your role.

      (source: http://www.scrumalliance.org/CSD)

      Now, taken the statement in the last bullett point serious, where do I find a
      CSD course which has testing as one part of it? Any hints are welcome, since I
      Was unable to find anything on the topic.

      Kind regards
      Markus Gaertner
      http://blog.shino.de
    • Adam Sroka
      Testing is part of the CSD class. There is no separate role in Scrum called Tester . There probably shouldn t be, but there wasn t a separate role called
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 30, 2010
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        Testing is part of the CSD class. There is no separate role in Scrum called "Tester". There probably shouldn't be, but there wasn't a separate role called "Developer" either...

        On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Markus Gaertner <shino@...> wrote:
         

        Yesterday I researched the topic of the CSD. Being a tester, one thing that
        interested me was how to get certified as a tester for Scrum. Valueing a
        cross-functional team inside Scrum, I was wondering how programmers and testers
        get integrated on the certification level.

        The only thing I found was part of the description for the Certified Scrum
        Developer:

        CSD Qualifications

        At least five days of formal training are required to earn a Certified Scrum
        Developer (CSD) credential. CSD applicants must also demonstrate an
        understanding of agile engineering practices by taking and passing a formal CSD
        assessment.
        - At least three days must be technical training through one or more of the
        CSD-eligible courses.
        - At least one of the five days must be dedicated to the study of Scrum in a
        CSD-eligible course.
        - The fifth day is an elective. You can choose from among the CSD-eligible
        courses to develop the skills you feel would benefit you the most in your role.

        (source: http://www.scrumalliance.org/CSD)

        Now, taken the statement in the last bullett point serious, where do I find a
        CSD course which has testing as one part of it? Any hints are welcome, since I
        Was unable to find anything on the topic.

        Kind regards
        Markus Gaertner
        http://blog.shino.de


      • Markus Gaertner
        ... Interesting. In which extent is testing dealed with in the certification course? Does it go beyond TDD? Couldn t find a programme so far either, so any
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 30, 2010
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          Am 30.06.2010 20:13, schrieb Adam Sroka:
          > Testing is part of the CSD class. There is no separate role in Scrum called
          > "Tester". There probably shouldn't be, but there wasn't a separate role
          > called "Developer" either...
          >
          >

          Interesting. In which extent is testing dealed with in the certification
          course? Does it go beyond TDD? Couldn't find a programme so far either,
          so any further input is appreciated.

          Kind regards
          Markus Gaertner
        • Michael James
          Interesting trivia: Ken toyed with calling the Scrum Development Team (that is, the subteam not including the PO) the developers because of all the confusion
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 30, 2010
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            Interesting trivia: Ken toyed with calling the Scrum Development Team (that is, the subteam not including the PO) "the developers" because of all the confusion people had with the idea of a Scrum Development Team within a Scrum Team.

            The difficulty with the word "developers" (IMO) is that I've seen great results from adding people who wouldn't previously have thought of themselves as "developers:" domain experts, business analysts, scientists, UI designers, people with lots of testing expertise.

            --mj

            On Jun 30, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Adam Sroka wrote:

             

            Testing is part of the CSD class. There is no separate role in Scrum called "Tester". There probably shouldn't be, but there wasn't a separate role called "Developer" either...

            On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Markus Gaertner <shino@shino. de> wrote:
             

            Yesterday I researched the topic of the CSD. Being a tester, one thing that
            interested me was how to get certified as a tester for Scrum. Valueing a
            cross-functional team inside Scrum, I was wondering how programmers and testers
            get integrated on the certification level.

            The only thing I found was part of the description for the Certified Scrum
            Developer:

            CSD Qualifications

            At least five days of formal training are required to earn a Certified Scrum
            Developer (CSD) credential. CSD applicants must also demonstrate an
            understanding of agile engineering practices by taking and passing a formal CSD
            assessment.
            - At least three days must be technical training through one or more of the
            CSD-eligible courses.
            - At least one of the five days must be dedicated to the study of Scrum in a
            CSD-eligible course.
            - The fifth day is an elective. You can choose from among the CSD-eligible
            courses to develop the skills you feel would benefit you the most in your role.

            (source: http://www.scrumall iance.org/ CSD)

            Now, taken the statement in the last bullett point serious, where do I find a
            CSD course which has testing as one part of it? Any hints are welcome, since I
            Was unable to find anything on the topic.

            Kind regards
            Markus Gaertner
            http://blog. shino.de




          • Markus Gaertner
            Oh, that part is fine with me. I make the same consideration. I distinguish between programmers and developers in the sense, that programmers are a subset of
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 30, 2010
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              Oh, that part is fine with me. I make the same consideration. I
              distinguish between programmers and developers in the sense, that
              programmers are a subset of all the developer on the team. I was just
              wondering what Testing in Scrum is all about.

              Kind regards
              Markus Gaertner

              Am 30.06.2010 20:30, schrieb Michael James:
              > Interesting trivia: Ken toyed with calling the Scrum Development Team (that is, the subteam not including the PO) "the developers" because of all the confusion people had with the idea of a Scrum Development Team within a Scrum Team.
              >
              > The difficulty with the word "developers" (IMO) is that I've seen great results from adding people who wouldn't previously have thought of themselves as "developers:" domain experts, business analysts, scientists, UI designers, people with lots of testing expertise.
              >
              > --mj
              >
              > On Jun 30, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Adam Sroka wrote:
              >
              >
              >> Testing is part of the CSD class. There is no separate role in Scrum called "Tester". There probably shouldn't be, but there wasn't a separate role called "Developer" either...
              >>
              >>
              >> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Markus Gaertner<shino@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Yesterday I researched the topic of the CSD. Being a tester, one thing that
              >> interested me was how to get certified as a tester for Scrum. Valueing a
              >> cross-functional team inside Scrum, I was wondering how programmers and testers
              >> get integrated on the certification level.
              >>
              >> The only thing I found was part of the description for the Certified Scrum
              >> Developer:
              >>
              >> CSD Qualifications
              >>
              >> At least five days of formal training are required to earn a Certified Scrum
              >> Developer (CSD) credential. CSD applicants must also demonstrate an
              >> understanding of agile engineering practices by taking and passing a formal CSD
              >> assessment.
              >> - At least three days must be technical training through one or more of the
              >> CSD-eligible courses.
              >> - At least one of the five days must be dedicated to the study of Scrum in a
              >> CSD-eligible course.
              >> - The fifth day is an elective. You can choose from among the CSD-eligible
              >> courses to develop the skills you feel would benefit you the most in your role.
              >>
              >> (source: http://www.scrumalliance.org/CSD)
              >>
              >> Now, taken the statement in the last bullett point serious, where do I find a
              >> CSD course which has testing as one part of it? Any hints are welcome, since I
              >> Was unable to find anything on the topic.
              >>
              >> Kind regards
              >> Markus Gaertner
              >> http://blog.shino.de
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
            • Adam Sroka
              ... The way that Ron and Chet ran the class we did both TDD and some form of acceptance testing for the PO (Though teams were allowed to self-organize a bit on
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 30, 2010
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                On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Markus Gaertner <shino@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Am 30.06.2010 20:13, schrieb Adam Sroka:
                >
                > > Testing is part of the CSD class. There is no separate role in Scrum called
                > > "Tester". There probably shouldn't be, but there wasn't a separate role
                > > called "Developer" either...
                > >
                > >
                >
                > Interesting. In which extent is testing dealed with in the certification
                > course? Does it go beyond TDD? Couldn't find a programme so far either,
                > so any further input is appreciated.
                >

                The way that Ron and Chet ran the class we did both TDD and some form
                of acceptance testing for the PO (Though teams were allowed to
                self-organize a bit on how to do this.) I can't imagine how you could
                teach "technical practices" without including these things in some
                form.
              • Adam Sroka
                P.S. the class was run as a series of mini-sprints. The team that I worked with was all programmers and experienced coaches, but I would think that someone who
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 30, 2010
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                  P.S. the class was run as a series of mini-sprints. The team that I
                  worked with was all programmers and experienced coaches, but I would
                  think that someone who was an expert tester or UI designer would both
                  learn and contribute effectively.

                  On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                  > On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Markus Gaertner <shino@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Am 30.06.2010 20:13, schrieb Adam Sroka:
                  >>
                  >> > Testing is part of the CSD class. There is no separate role in Scrum called
                  >> > "Tester". There probably shouldn't be, but there wasn't a separate role
                  >> > called "Developer" either...
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >> Interesting. In which extent is testing dealed with in the certification
                  >> course? Does it go beyond TDD? Couldn't find a programme so far either,
                  >> so any further input is appreciated.
                  >>
                  >
                  > The way that Ron and Chet ran the class we did both TDD and some form
                  > of acceptance testing for the PO (Though teams were allowed to
                  > self-organize a bit on how to do this.) I can't imagine how you could
                  > teach "technical practices" without including these things in some
                  > form.
                  >
                • Markus Gaertner
                  ... Ok, what about Exploratory Testing? As Elisabeth Hendrickson taught me, done means developed, tested, and explored. TDD is the development part, functional
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 30, 2010
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                    Am 30.06.2010 20:37, schrieb Adam Sroka:
                    > On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Markus Gaertner<shino@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Am 30.06.2010 20:13, schrieb Adam Sroka:
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>> Testing is part of the CSD class. There is no separate role in Scrum called
                    >>> "Tester". There probably shouldn't be, but there wasn't a separate role
                    >>> called "Developer" either...
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >> Interesting. In which extent is testing dealed with in the certification
                    >> course? Does it go beyond TDD? Couldn't find a programme so far either,
                    >> so any further input is appreciated.
                    >>
                    >>
                    > The way that Ron and Chet ran the class we did both TDD and some form
                    > of acceptance testing for the PO (Though teams were allowed to
                    > self-organize a bit on how to do this.) I can't imagine how you could
                    > teach "technical practices" without including these things in some
                    > form.
                    >
                    >
                    Ok, what about Exploratory Testing? As Elisabeth Hendrickson taught me,
                    done means developed, tested, and explored. TDD is the development part,
                    functional acceptance testing the tested part, but a release should also
                    be explored about risks that our automation approach did not catch.

                    Kind regards
                    Markus Gaertner
                  • Adam Sroka
                    ... How much of that can you do in three days, recognizing that the three days is the entire length of the project? There is certainly a lot more depth to
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 30, 2010
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                      On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Markus Gaertner <shino@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Am 30.06.2010 20:37, schrieb Adam Sroka:
                      >
                      > > On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Markus Gaertner<shino@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> Am 30.06.2010 20:13, schrieb Adam Sroka:
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>> Testing is part of the CSD class. There is no separate role in Scrum called
                      > >>> "Tester". There probably shouldn't be, but there wasn't a separate role
                      > >>> called "Developer" either...
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >> Interesting. In which extent is testing dealed with in the certification
                      > >> course? Does it go beyond TDD? Couldn't find a programme so far either,
                      > >> so any further input is appreciated.
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > > The way that Ron and Chet ran the class we did both TDD and some form
                      > > of acceptance testing for the PO (Though teams were allowed to
                      > > self-organize a bit on how to do this.) I can't imagine how you could
                      > > teach "technical practices" without including these things in some
                      > > form.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > Ok, what about Exploratory Testing? As Elisabeth Hendrickson taught me,
                      > done means developed, tested, and explored. TDD is the development part,
                      > functional acceptance testing the tested part, but a release should also
                      > be explored about risks that our automation approach did not catch.
                      >

                      How much of that can you do in three days, recognizing that the three
                      days is the entire length of the project?

                      There is certainly a lot more depth to programming, testing, TDD, CI,
                      and numerous other topics than are covered in this class. However,
                      they are all mentioned and applied. The best advice is to take a class
                      like this one, take other classes that go into greater depth on these
                      important topics, and practice, practice, practice. If you don't do
                      all of those things you won't ever be very good.
                    • Markus Gaertner
                      ... Don t get me wrong, I was just hunting after some insights. I defintely want to take the course, and your input made me even more curious about it. Thanks
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 30, 2010
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                        Am 30.06.2010 20:58, schrieb Adam Sroka:
                        > On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Markus Gaertner<shino@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Am 30.06.2010 20:37, schrieb Adam Sroka:
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Markus Gaertner<shino@...> wrote:
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Am 30.06.2010 20:13, schrieb Adam Sroka:
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> Testing is part of the CSD class. There is no separate role in Scrum called
                        >>>>> "Tester". There probably shouldn't be, but there wasn't a separate role
                        >>>>> called "Developer" either...
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>> Interesting. In which extent is testing dealed with in the certification
                        >>>> course? Does it go beyond TDD? Couldn't find a programme so far either,
                        >>>> so any further input is appreciated.
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>> The way that Ron and Chet ran the class we did both TDD and some form
                        >>> of acceptance testing for the PO (Though teams were allowed to
                        >>> self-organize a bit on how to do this.) I can't imagine how you could
                        >>> teach "technical practices" without including these things in some
                        >>> form.
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >> Ok, what about Exploratory Testing? As Elisabeth Hendrickson taught me,
                        >> done means developed, tested, and explored. TDD is the development part,
                        >> functional acceptance testing the tested part, but a release should also
                        >> be explored about risks that our automation approach did not catch.
                        >>
                        >>
                        > How much of that can you do in three days, recognizing that the three
                        > days is the entire length of the project?
                        >
                        > There is certainly a lot more depth to programming, testing, TDD, CI,
                        > and numerous other topics than are covered in this class. However,
                        > they are all mentioned and applied. The best advice is to take a class
                        > like this one, take other classes that go into greater depth on these
                        > important topics, and practice, practice, practice. If you don't do
                        > all of those things you won't ever be very good.
                        >
                        >
                        Don't get me wrong, I was just hunting after some insights. I defintely
                        want to take the course, and your input made me even more curious about it.

                        Thanks so far.

                        Kind regards
                        Markus Gaertner
                      • Ron Jeffries
                        Hello, Markus. On Wednesday, June 30, 2010, at 2:05:11 PM, you ... Some of the other answers here were pretty good. As far as I know, there is no official
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 1, 2010
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                          Hello, Markus. On Wednesday, June 30, 2010, at 2:05:11 PM, you
                          wrote:

                          > Yesterday I researched the topic of the CSD. Being a tester, one thing that
                          > interested me was how to get certified as a tester for Scrum. Valueing a
                          > cross-functional team inside Scrum, I was wondering how programmers and testers
                          > get integrated on the certification level.

                          Some of the other answers here were pretty good. As far as I know,
                          there is no "official" answer at the Scrum Alliance level, nor does
                          there need to be.

                          My course with Chet does not contemplate having "pure" testers in
                          the class, nor is it incompatible with that. A tester who can read
                          Java, or better yet write it, may be able to contribute more. The
                          course includes automated acceptance "checking", so a tester who can
                          use tools like FitNesse could contribute strongly there. And, of
                          course, a good tester is a great asset as the team tries to figure
                          out what the Product Owner means by whatever they're saying.

                          In our classes, there are always many points where the inquiring
                          mind of a tester might have drawn out important issues and avoided
                          mistakes.

                          I could imagine a CSD course directed at testers, and I'm quite sure
                          that the SA would look favorably on such a thing as leading to the
                          CSD. Whether there need to be "branches" of the CSD I'm not sure. My
                          own philosophy leads me to want cross-functional people as well as
                          cross-functional teams, so I would prefer to have all the team
                          members familiar with and at least basically capable in all the key
                          development practices.

                          Regards,

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          www.xprogramming.com/blog
                          Talent determines how fast you get good, not how good you get.
                          -- Richard Gabriel
                        • Markus Gaertner
                          Thanks Ron. Your answer makes me want to attend your course immediately. :) Kind regards Markus Gaertner http://blog.shino.de
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jul 1, 2010
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                            Thanks Ron. Your answer makes me want to attend your course immediately. :)

                            Kind regards
                            Markus Gaertner
                            http://blog.shino.de

                            On 07/01/10 15:57, Ron Jeffries wrote:
                            > Hello, Markus. On Wednesday, June 30, 2010, at 2:05:11 PM, you
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            >> Yesterday I researched the topic of the CSD. Being a tester, one thing that
                            >> interested me was how to get certified as a tester for Scrum. Valueing a
                            >> cross-functional team inside Scrum, I was wondering how programmers and testers
                            >> get integrated on the certification level.
                            >
                            > Some of the other answers here were pretty good. As far as I know,
                            > there is no "official" answer at the Scrum Alliance level, nor does
                            > there need to be.
                            >
                            > My course with Chet does not contemplate having "pure" testers in
                            > the class, nor is it incompatible with that. A tester who can read
                            > Java, or better yet write it, may be able to contribute more. The
                            > course includes automated acceptance "checking", so a tester who can
                            > use tools like FitNesse could contribute strongly there. And, of
                            > course, a good tester is a great asset as the team tries to figure
                            > out what the Product Owner means by whatever they're saying.
                            >
                            > In our classes, there are always many points where the inquiring
                            > mind of a tester might have drawn out important issues and avoided
                            > mistakes.
                            >
                            > I could imagine a CSD course directed at testers, and I'm quite sure
                            > that the SA would look favorably on such a thing as leading to the
                            > CSD. Whether there need to be "branches" of the CSD I'm not sure. My
                            > own philosophy leads me to want cross-functional people as well as
                            > cross-functional teams, so I would prefer to have all the team
                            > members familiar with and at least basically capable in all the key
                            > development practices.
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            >
                            > Ron Jeffries
                            > www.XProgramming.com
                            > www.xprogramming.com/blog
                            > Talent determines how fast you get good, not how good you get.
                            > -- Richard Gabriel
                            >
                            >
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