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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Printing scrum labels

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  • George Dinwiddie
    Hi, Klaus, ... Klaus, I hope that the backlog grooming includes the PO along with others from the team, to represent the viewpoints of the developers and
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 5, 2010
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      Hi, Klaus,

      Klaus Hebsgaard wrote:
      > On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 9:45 PM, Steve Ropa <theropas@...
      > <mailto:theropas@...>> wrote:
      > I wonder why the PO is already typing them, without the team? I
      > like this to be a process of discovery and collaboration.
      >
      > The PO is typing the stories without the team in order to plan ahead.
      > This is is part of the PO role - to plan ahead.
      > We do some backlog grooming weekly, where we groom upcoming stories.

      Klaus, I hope that the backlog grooming includes the PO along with
      others from the team, to represent the viewpoints of the developers and
      testers. And I hope that the size and shape of the stories change
      during these discussions, so that they represent the best possible
      stories rather than the ones the PO first wrote. And I hope that they
      have discussions about the acceptance criteria for these stories, and
      come up with some concrete examples that would show that the story in
      complete and working.

      Otherwise, the team will be missing some of the major benefits of
      working in this manner.

      - George

      --
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
      Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
      Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    • Steve Ropa
      I think you are absolutely right, whatever works for the team is cool. I work for a tool company, so it would be pretty hypocrital, and potentially career
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 7, 2010
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        I think you are absolutely right, whatever works for the team is cool.  I work for a tool company, so it would be pretty hypocrital, and potentially career limiting, for me to say otherwise.  What I'm sensing here though is a team that is not happy.  And a *lot* of extra work in moving between the various forms. 

        Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 3:44 AM
        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Printing scrum labels

         

        Hi Klaus,

        I love tempests in teapots. It's amazing how passionately people can argue about them.

        There is a reason that Scrum doesn't tell us how to do most things. That's so we can figure it out for ourselves and find something which works well for us: Our own personal best practice. So while there is much good advice on this list, there is little absolute truth.

        My own voyage started with spreadsheets - not quite Ken Schwaber's examples, but close. Compared to what I would do later, it wasn't a good solution, but it was much better than what I did before. Then my team and I moved to Target Process. A big improvement over trying to exchange Excel sheets with my off-site Product Owner.  Several years later, that team is AFAIK still happy with TP for managing both backlogs.

        In my second CSM course (I think with Boris Gloger), I discovered cards. After experimenting, I discovered that cards were really much better for day-to-day work in the team. But I have yet to personally experience a team who wants to manage their product backlog on cards after the initial brainstorming. They prefer something electronic to manage the product backlog.

        So if you're part of one of the teams that wants an electronic product backlog, that's cool. Do what makes sense for you!

        BTW - It should be possible to use the mail merge feature in Word or OpenOffice to convert an excel or csv file into something printable on cards - It's not really different from printing address labels or envelopes. Maybe someone has a template?

        Cheers,

        Peter










        On 05.06.10 11:17, Klaus Hebsgaard wrote:

         
        On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 9:45 PM, Steve Ropa <theropas@...> wrote:
         

        Oh heck, give me a modern violin over one of those old ones anyday...except maybe a strad.
         
        I wonder why the PO is already typing them, without the team?  I like this to be a process of discovery and collaboration. 


        The PO is typing the stories without the team in order to plan ahead.
        This is is part of the PO role - to plan ahead.
        We do some backlog grooming weekly, where we groom upcoming stories.
         


        Personally, I think that hand-written cards are, like original-instrument performances of classical music, an acquired taste. Some people think that anything else spoils the experience, some think Haydn would have used 20th-century instruments if he had had them...

        regards,
        scott

        --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, "Steve Ropa" <theropas@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Klaus,
        >
        > This feels like a lot of extra process and a lot of extra work. I would like to suggest that you have at least one too many meetings in this process. Something that you might want to consider is shorter sprints and less time devoted to the planning, more to the doing. Would it be more enjoyable if you had one meeting where the PO converses with the team about what he/she would like in the sprint along with what the team needs to do(tasks) to make that happen?
        >
        > Steve
        >
        >
        > From: Klaus Hebsgaard
        > Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 6:51 AM
        > To: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com
        > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Printing scrum labels
        >
        >
        >
        > On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@ ...> wrote:
        > > Hello, Klaus. On Friday, June 4, 2010, at 12:09:31 AM, you wrote:
        > >
        > >> Our product owner enters the stories into excel, after sprint planning
        > >> 2 we copy the stories to another excel sheet, and break the stories
        > >> down to tasks and print them directly from excel.
        > >
        > >> Is it a problem scrum wise to do it this way?
        > >
        > > How long does it take to do this? How participative is the breaking
        > > down? Do people enjoy it? Who runs the screen?
        >
        > We do 3 week sprints.
        >
        > We usually take a day to do sp1 and sp2.
        > Sp1 is the PO presenting what he/she would like in the sprint.
        >
        > Sp2 is the team breaking the stories into tasks. Usually one team
        > member is running the computer, and from time to time we even put on a
        > projector ;-)
        >
        > After Sp2 the team makes a commitment to which stories to include.
        >
        > No, it is not very enjoyable...
        >
        > >
        > > Ron Jeffries
        > > www.XProgramming. com
        > > www.xprogramming. com/blog
        > > War remains the decisive human failure.
        > > -- John Kenneth Galbraith
        > >
        > >
        >




        -- 
        Peter Stevens, CSM, CSPO, CSP
        Independent Scrum Trainer and Coach
        Sierra-Charlie Consulting | Zurich | Switzerland
        
        Member of DasScrumTeam. de
        
        blog:  http://scrum- breakfast. com
        tel:   +41 44 586 6450 
        cell:  +41 79 422 6722
        skype: peterstev

      • Dean Johnson
        I use a Brother QL-570 printer to print little square stickers that I stick to the tiny Post-Its. The Brother software is clunky but gets the job done.
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 15, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          I use a Brother QL-570 printer to print little square stickers that I stick to the tiny Post-Its. The Brother software is clunky but gets the job done. 

          http://www.flickr.com/photos/deanj/4703687807/

          As Scrum Master I usually am typist for the team as they shout out and discuss the Tasks that are projected up on the wall. We use a board to track the Sprint but record stuff in ScrumWorks for posterity.

          Any Tasks that are discovered after the start are usually hand written which helps gauge how effective the planning is.

          yours, Dean

          On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 7:18 AM, Steve Ropa <theropas@...> wrote:
           

          I think you are absolutely right, whatever works for the team is cool.  I work for a tool company, so it would be pretty hypocrital, and potentially career limiting, for me to say otherwise.  What I'm sensing here though is a team that is not happy.  And a *lot* of extra work in moving between the various forms. 

          Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 3:44 AM
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Printing scrum labels

           

          Hi Klaus,

          I love tempests in teapots. It's amazing how passionately people can argue about them.

          There is a reason that Scrum doesn't tell us how to do most things. That's so we can figure it out for ourselves and find something which works well for us: Our own personal best practice. So while there is much good advice on this list, there is little absolute truth.

          My own voyage started with spreadsheets - not quite Ken Schwaber's examples, but close. Compared to what I would do later, it wasn't a good solution, but it was much better than what I did before. Then my team and I moved to Target Process. A big improvement over trying to exchange Excel sheets with my off-site Product Owner.  Several years later, that team is AFAIK still happy with TP for managing both backlogs.

          In my second CSM course (I think with Boris Gloger), I discovered cards. After experimenting, I discovered that cards were really much better for day-to-day work in the team. But I have yet to personally experience a team who wants to manage their product backlog on cards after the initial brainstorming. They prefer something electronic to manage the product backlog.

          So if you're part of one of the teams that wants an electronic product backlog, that's cool. Do what makes sense for you!

          BTW - It should be possible to use the mail merge feature in Word or OpenOffice to convert an excel or csv file into something printable on cards - It's not really different from printing address labels or envelopes. Maybe someone has a template?

          Cheers,

          Peter










          On 05.06.10 11:17, Klaus Hebsgaard wrote:

           
          On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 9:45 PM, Steve Ropa <theropas@...> wrote:
           

          Oh heck, give me a modern violin over one of those old ones anyday...except maybe a strad.
           
          I wonder why the PO is already typing them, without the team?  I like this to be a process of discovery and collaboration. 


          The PO is typing the stories without the team in order to plan ahead.
          This is is part of the PO role - to plan ahead.
          We do some backlog grooming weekly, where we groom upcoming stories.
           


          Personally, I think that hand-written cards are, like original-instrument performances of classical music, an acquired taste. Some people think that anything else spoils the experience, some think Haydn would have used 20th-century instruments if he had had them...

          regards,
          scott

          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Ropa" <theropas@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Klaus,
          >
          > This feels like a lot of extra process and a lot of extra work. I would like to suggest that you have at least one too many meetings in this process. Something that you might want to consider is shorter sprints and less time devoted to the planning, more to the doing. Would it be more enjoyable if you had one meeting where the PO converses with the team about what he/she would like in the sprint along with what the team needs to do(tasks) to make that happen?
          >
          > Steve
          >
          >
          > From: Klaus Hebsgaard
          > Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 6:51 AM
          > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Printing scrum labels
          >
          >
          >
          > On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
          > > Hello, Klaus. On Friday, June 4, 2010, at 12:09:31 AM, you wrote:
          > >
          > >> Our product owner enters the stories into excel, after sprint planning
          > >> 2 we copy the stories to another excel sheet, and break the stories
          > >> down to tasks and print them directly from excel.
          > >
          > >> Is it a problem scrum wise to do it this way?
          > >
          > > How long does it take to do this? How participative is the breaking
          > > down? Do people enjoy it? Who runs the screen?
          >
          > We do 3 week sprints.
          >
          > We usually take a day to do sp1 and sp2.
          > Sp1 is the PO presenting what he/she would like in the sprint.
          >
          > Sp2 is the team breaking the stories into tasks. Usually one team
          > member is running the computer, and from time to time we even put on a
          > projector ;-)
          >
          > After Sp2 the team makes a commitment to which stories to include.
          >
          > No, it is not very enjoyable...
          >
          > >
          > > Ron Jeffries
          > > www.XProgramming.com
          > > www.xprogramming.com/blog
          > > War remains the decisive human failure.
          > > -- John Kenneth Galbraith
          > >
          > >
          >




          -- 
          Peter Stevens, CSM, CSPO, CSP
          Independent Scrum Trainer and Coach
          Sierra-Charlie Consulting | Zurich | Switzerland
          
          Member of DasScrumTeam.de
          
          blog:  http://scrum-breakfast.com
          tel:   +41 44 586 6450 
          cell:  +41 79 422 6722
          skype: peterstev


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