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Is it ethical to test the software without testing the value behind it?

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  • Ahmed ALmahdy
    Dears,   I believe that testing is not software testing only, but it should have a serious test to the value behind this software.   This picture may
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 3, 2010
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      Dears,
       
      I believe that "testing" is not software testing only, but it should have a serious test to the value behind this software.
       
      This picture may clarify my point of view
       
       
      I wonder, how can we test this value? I found an answer in Agile (scrum) which is sotry writing.
      Yes, the way of writing stories, I think we should use "so that" or "In order to" or similar templates but not sure if it is enough.
       
      Did you find any other practices that helped you to test the value behind the software from your client perspective ?
       
      Lately, we created a group for a focused discussion, I recommend it if you are interested.
       
      "Software and Value Testing"
       
      Best Regards,
      Ahmed

    • Wahlstedt Jyrki
      Hi, if one speaks about values in ethical sense, they should be sorted out before starting the project. Writing specs, user stories or testing doesn t help
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 3, 2010
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        Hi,

        if one speaks about values in ethical sense, they should be sorted out before starting the project. Writing specs, user stories or testing doesn’t help much there...

         

        !

        ! Jyrki Wahlstedt

        !

         

        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ahmed ALmahdy
        Sent: 3. kesäkuuta 2010 13:49
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Is it ethical to test the software without testing the value behind it?

         

         

        Dears,

         

        I believe that "testing" is not software testing only, but it should have a serious test to the value behind this software.

         

        This picture may clarify my point of view

         

         

        I wonder, how can we test this value? I found an answer in Agile (scrum) which is sotry writing.

        Yes, the way of writing stories, I think we should use "so that" or "In order to" or similar templates but not sure if it is enough.

         

        Did you find any other practices that helped you to test the value behind the software from your client perspective ?

         

        Lately, we created a group for a focused discussion, I recommend it if you are interested.

         

        "Software and Value Testing"

         

        Best Regards,

        Ahmed

         

      • Kevlin Henney
        ... Looking at the aims of the group, I think it may be unethical to confuse business acceptance with the notion of business value :^) However, what you pose
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 3, 2010
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          On 3 June 2010 11:48, Ahmed ALmahdy <ahmed_abogh@...> wrote:
           
          I believe that "testing" is not software testing only, but it should have a serious test to the value behind this software.
           
          This picture may clarify my point of view
           
           
          I wonder, how can we test this value? I found an answer in Agile (scrum) which is sotry writing.
          Yes, the way of writing stories, I think we should use "so that" or "In order to" or similar templates but not sure if it is enough.
           
          Did you find any other practices that helped you to test the value behind the software from your client perspective ?
           
          Lately, we created a group for a focused discussion, I recommend it if you are interested.

          Looking at the aims of the group, I think it may be unethical to confuse business acceptance with the notion of business value :^)

          However, what you pose is not a question of ethics. Ethics enters into the claims you make about what you have: if you claim something beyond what you have demonstrated or something that you know to be false, that may be considered unethical. "This software works as promised, here are the tests" can be considered ethical in this sense, even if it turns out that we discover faults and misinterpretations. "We have no tests, so we don't know if this will work" is also ethical, although obviously unsatisfying. "This software works as promised, and is guaranteed to make us lots of money" cannot be demonstrated to be true at the time of the claim, and could be considered unethical as a result.

          What is actually of value to a business is not necessarily the same as what it accepts via testing, no matter how brilliant or well conceived the tests are or how good the dialogue with the business over the requirements. Confusing this matter further with technical practices seems like pursuing the wrong path.

          In most cases it is not possible to assess actual business value until after the fact. Yes, this can be tested, but it is not the same kind of test, nor is it from the same perspective, as practices such as Acceptance TDD.

          Being able to predict the business value of software is like predicting the financial markets. Like NP-complete problems, if you figure out how to predict either of these, you've solved the prediction problem for all of them. This, of course, has interesting implications for the notion of prioritising by business value. You can prioritise up front with respect to belief or perception or anticipation of value to a business, but rarely with respect to actual value to a business. Although well meant, we need to adjust our vocabulary a little to avoid such grand claims!

          Kevlin
          --
          ________________________

           Kevlin Henney
           +44 7801 073 508
           http://curbralan.com
           http://kevlin.tel
          ________________________

        • Ahmed ALmahdy
          Kevlin,   Your words make sense, I agree with you.   Then, we need to target what the customer really needs regardless of the business value as it depends
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 3, 2010
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            Kevlin,
             
            Your words make sense, I agree with you.
             
            Then, we need to target "what the customer really needs" regardless of the business value as it depends on other factors that are out of our hands.
             


            --- On Thu, 6/3/10, Kevlin Henney <kevlin.henney@...> wrote:

            From: Kevlin Henney <kevlin.henney@...>
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Is it ethical to test the software without testing the value behind it?
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, June 3, 2010, 8:21 AM

             
            On 3 June 2010 11:48, Ahmed ALmahdy <ahmed_abogh@ yahoo.com> wrote:
             
            I believe that "testing" is not software testing only, but it should have a serious test to the value behind this software.
             
            This picture may clarify my point of view
             
             
            I wonder, how can we test this value? I found an answer in Agile (scrum) which is sotry writing.
            Yes, the way of writing stories, I think we should use "so that" or "In order to" or similar templates but not sure if it is enough.
             
            Did you find any other practices that helped you to test the value behind the software from your client perspective ?
             
            Lately, we created a group for a focused discussion, I recommend it if you are interested.

            Looking at the aims of the group, I think it may be unethical to confuse business acceptance with the notion of business value :^)

            However, what you pose is not a question of ethics. Ethics enters into the claims you make about what you have: if you claim something beyond what you have demonstrated or something that you know to be false, that may be considered unethical. "This software works as promised, here are the tests" can be considered ethical in this sense, even if it turns out that we discover faults and misinterpretations. "We have no tests, so we don't know if this will work" is also ethical, although obviously unsatisfying. "This software works as promised, and is guaranteed to make us lots of money" cannot be demonstrated to be true at the time of the claim, and could be considered unethical as a result.

            What is actually of value to a business is not necessarily the same as what it accepts via testing, no matter how brilliant or well conceived the tests are or how good the dialogue with the business over the requirements. Confusing this matter further with technical practices seems like pursuing the wrong path.

            In most cases it is not possible to assess actual business value until after the fact. Yes, this can be tested, but it is not the same kind of test, nor is it from the same perspective, as practices such as Acceptance TDD.

            Being able to predict the business value of software is like predicting the financial markets. Like NP-complete problems, if you figure out how to predict either of these, you've solved the prediction problem for all of them. This, of course, has interesting implications for the notion of prioritising by business value. You can prioritise up front with respect to belief or perception or anticipation of value to a business, but rarely with respect to actual value to a business. Although well meant, we need to adjust our vocabulary a little to avoid such grand claims!

            Kevlin
            --
            ____________ _________ ___

             Kevlin Henney
             +44 7801 073 508
             http://curbralan. com
             http://kevlin. tel
            ____________ _________ ___


          • Roy Morien
            That s an interesting notion, that we need to target what the customer really wants regardless of business value. If there is no busness value in what the
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 3, 2010
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              That's an interesting notion, that we need to target what the customer really wants regardless of business value. If there is no busness value in what the customer really wants, then why would the customer really want it? This seems a bit like the 'need versus want' argument. I want a Rolex gold watch so I can tell the time, but do I really need it? My clunker of a mobile phone can tell me the time just as well as a $20,000 Rolex.
               
              Regards,
              Roy Morien
               

              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              From: ahmed_abogh@...
              Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 18:03:52 -0700
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Is it ethical to test the software without testing the value behind it?

               
              Kevlin,
               
              Your words make sense, I agree with you.
               
              Then, we need to target "what the customer really needs" regardless of the business value as it depends on other factors that are out of our hands.
               


              --- On Thu, 6/3/10, Kevlin Henney <kevlin.henney@ gmail.com> wrote:

              From: Kevlin Henney <kevlin.henney@ gmail.com>
              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Is it ethical to test the software without testing the value behind it?
              To: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Thursday, June 3, 2010, 8:21 AM

               
              On 3 June 2010 11:48, Ahmed ALmahdy <ahmed_abogh@ yahoo.com> wrote:
               
              I believe that "testing" is not software testing only, but it should have a serious test to the value behind this software.
               
              This picture may clarify my point of view
               
               
              I wonder, how can we test this value? I found an answer in Agile (scrum) which is sotry writing.
              Yes, the way of writing stories, I think we should use "so that" or "In order to" or similar templates but not sure if it is enough.
               
              Did you find any other practices that helped you to test the value behind the software from your client perspective ?
               
              Lately, we created a group for a focused discussion, I recommend it if you are interested.

              Looking at the aims of the group, I think it may be unethical to confuse business acceptance with the notion of business value :^)

              However, what you pose is not a question of ethics. Ethics enters into the claims you make about what you have: if you claim something beyond what you have demonstrated or something that you know to be false, that may be considered unethical. "This software works as promised, here are the tests" can be considered ethical in this sense, even if it turns out that we discover faults and misinterpretations. "We have no tests, so we don't know if this will work" is also ethical, although obviously unsatisfying. "This software works as promised, and is guaranteed to make us lots of money" cannot be demonstrated to be true at the time of the claim, and could be considered unethical as a result.

              What is actually of value to a business is not necessarily the same as what it accepts via testing, no matter how brilliant or well conceived the tests are or how good the dialogue with the business over the requirements. Confusing this matter further with technical practices seems like pursuing the wrong path.

              In most cases it is not possible to assess actual business value until after the fact. Yes, this can be tested, but it is not the same kind of test, nor is it from the same perspective, as practices such as Acceptance TDD.

              Being able to predict the business value of software is like predicting the financial markets. Like NP-complete problems, if you figure out how to predict either of these, you've solved the prediction problem for all of them. This, of course, has interesting implications for the notion of prioritising by business value. You can prioritise up front with respect to belief or perception or anticipation of value to a business, but rarely with respect to actual value to a business. Although well meant, we need to adjust our vocabulary a little to avoid such grand claims!

              Kevlin
              --
              ____________ _________ ___

               Kevlin Henney
               +44 7801 073 508
               http://curbralan. com
               http://kevlin. tel
              ____________ _________ ___





              Find it at CarPoint.com.au New, Used, Demo, Dealer or Private?
            • Pierre Mengal
              @Mark, I just subscribed to your blog. I like InfoQ very much too. @Mark, @Adam: IMHO, author s blogs are generally very light, and that makes sense. It s not
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 4, 2010
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                @Mark, I just subscribed to your blog. I like InfoQ very much too.

                @Mark, @Adam: IMHO, author's blogs are generally very light, and that makes sense. It's not specifically related to Scrum. I've observed that in many other fields. I prefer to buy their books ;) I think the perfect example of very valuable and effective author's blog is Seth Godin.

                @Thais, Subscribed to that one too. Henrik has something very valuable: he uses Scrum in his own company -daily-. There is far too much Scrum coaches/trainer that stopped practicing.

                @Peter: Merci!

                @Jeff: When I go to the URL you provided, I get a google ads trap page. When I replace the s by a g (blogpot), what I get is funny. Finally, when I type blogspot, I get the correct page.


                Warm regards,

                Pierre Mengal


                On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 1:11 AM, Jeff Anderson <Thomasjeffreyandersontwin@...> wrote:
                 

                What ever you do, don't go to agileconsulting.blospot.com, that guy is
                UMLing, RUP loving, kanban boarding, cycle timing a$$hole...

                Most definitely not agile...



                On 6/2/10, Peter Stevens (calendar) <peterstev@...> wrote:
                > Bonjour Pierre,
                >
                > There are a couple aggregators out there. Here are the ones I see in my
                > feedburner stats.
                >
                > * ScrumPlanet <http://scrumplanet.com/aggregator/sources>
                > * Agile and Lean
                > <http://www.agileandlean.de/scrumandkanbanblogs/index.html>
                > * Agile Voices <http://agilevoices.com/aggregator/sources>

                >
                > Each of these has a directory of their sources.
                >
                > Dzone has an agile tag <http://www.dzone.com/links/tag/agile.html>, but

                > does not AFAIK have an index of their sources.
                >
                > There may of course be more.
                >
                > Cheers,
                >
                > Peter
                >
                > On 02.06.10 11:57, Pierre Mengal wrote:
                >> Hello,
                >> I would like to subscribe to some RSS feeds about Scrum and/or Agile.
                >> Could you please suggest me which one I should consider ? My Google
                >> Reader suggestion tool is not helping me so much ;)
                >> I'm not specifically looking for the most popular ones.
                >> Thanks a million.
                >>
                >> Warm regards,
                >>
                >> Pierre Mengal
                >> CSP
                >> .
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                > --

                > Peter Stevens, CSM, CSPO, CSP
                > www.scrum-breakfast.com
                > tel: +41 44 586 6450
                >
                >

                --
                Sent from my mobile device

                Jeff Anderson

                http://agileconsulting.blogspot.com/

              • Peter Stevens (cal)
                On 04.06.10 11:14, Pierre Mengal wrote:   @Thais, Subscribed to that one too. Henrik has something very valuable: he uses Scrum in his own company -daily-.
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 4, 2010
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                  On 04.06.10 11:14, Pierre Mengal wrote:  

                  @Thais, Subscribed to that one too. Henrik has something very valuable: he uses Scrum in his own company -daily-. There is far too much Scrum coaches/trainer that stopped practicing.

                  Rebonjour,

                  Interesting statement, Pierre! What are the symptoms of coach/trainer blogs who aren't practicing?

                  Cheers,

                  Peter
                  -- 
                  Peter Stevens, CSM, CSPO, CSP
                  Independent Scrum Trainer and Coach
                  Sierra-Charlie Consulting | Zurich | Switzerland
                  
                  Member of DasScrumTeam.de
                  
                  blog:  http://scrum-breakfast.com
                  tel:   +41 44 586 6450 
                  cell:  +41 79 422 6722
                  skype: peterstev
                • Michael James
                  http://blogs.danube.com/author/michael-james http://blogs.danube.com/category/mjs-picks Also my twitter feed, for what it s worth:
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 4, 2010
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                    http://blogs.danube.com/author/michael-james
                    http://blogs.danube.com/category/mjs-picks

                    Also my twitter feed, for what it's worth:
                    https://twitter.com/michaeldotjames

                    --mj

                    On Jun 4, 2010, at 2:14 AM, Pierre Mengal wrote:

                     

                    @Mark, I just subscribed to your blog. I like InfoQ very much too.

                    @Mark, @Adam: IMHO, author's blogs are generally very light, and that makes sense. It's not specifically related to Scrum. I've observed that in many other fields. I prefer to buy their books ;) I think the perfect example of very valuable and effective author's blog is Seth Godin.

                    @Thais, Subscribed to that one too. Henrik has something very valuable: he uses Scrum in his own company -daily-. There is far too much Scrum coaches/trainer that stopped practicing.

                    @Peter: Merci!

                    @Jeff: When I go to the URL you provided, I get a google ads trap page. When I replace the s by a g (blogpot), what I get is funny. Finally, when I type blogspot, I get the correct page.


                    Warm regards,

                    Pierre Mengal


                    On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 1:11 AM, Jeff Anderson <Thomasjeffreyanders ontwin@gmail. com> wrote:
                     

                    What ever you do, don't go to agileconsulting. blospot.com, that guy is
                    UMLing, RUP loving, kanban boarding, cycle timing a$$hole...

                    Most definitely not agile...



                    On 6/2/10, Peter Stevens (calendar) <peterstev@gmail. com> wrote:
                    > Bonjour Pierre,
                    >
                    > There are a couple aggregators out there. Here are the ones I see in my
                    > feedburner stats.
                    >
                    > * ScrumPlanet <http://scrumplanet. com/aggregator/ sources>
                    > * Agile and Lean
                    > <http://www.agileand lean.de/scrumand kanbanblogs/ index.html>
                    > * Agile Voices <http://agilevoices. com/aggregator/ sources>

                    >
                    > Each of these has a directory of their sources.
                    >
                    > Dzone has an agile tag <http://www.dzone. com/links/ tag/agile. html>, but

                    > does not AFAIK have an index of their sources.
                    >
                    > There may of course be more.
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    >
                    > Peter
                    >
                    > On 02.06.10 11:57, Pierre Mengal wrote:
                    >> Hello,
                    >> I would like to subscribe to some RSS feeds about Scrum and/or Agile.
                    >> Could you please suggest me which one I should consider ? My Google
                    >> Reader suggestion tool is not helping me so much ;)
                    >> I'm not specifically looking for the most popular ones.
                    >> Thanks a million.
                    >>
                    >> Warm regards,
                    >>
                    >> Pierre Mengal
                    >> CSP
                    >> .
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    > --

                    > Peter Stevens, CSM, CSPO, CSP
                    > www.scrum-breakfast .com
                    > tel: +41 44 586 6450
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Sent from my mobile device

                    Jeff Anderson

                    http://agileconsult ing.blogspot. com/



                  • Pierre Mengal
                    Peter, It s my personnal opinion and it s not specifically related to Scrum or Agile. The nature of my current professional occupation allows me to meet
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 4, 2010
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                      Peter,
                       
                      It's my personnal opinion and it's not specifically related to Scrum or Agile.
                       
                      The nature of my current professional occupation allows me to meet coaches & trainers every week (in various fields, such as sales, marketing, development, finances, management, hr, etc...)...
                       
                      ... and the best ones are those who still eat their own dog food.

                      Warm regards,

                      Pierre Mengal


                      On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Peter Stevens (cal) <peterstev@...> wrote:
                       

                      On 04.06.10 11:14, Pierre Mengal wrote:
                       

                      @Thais, Subscribed to that one too. Henrik has something very valuable: he uses Scrum in his own company -daily-. There is far too much Scrum coaches/trainer that stopped practicing.

                      Rebonjour,

                      Interesting statement, Pierre! What are the symptoms of coach/trainer blogs who aren't practicing?

                      Cheers,

                      Peter
                      -- 
                      Peter Stevens, CSM, CSPO, CSP
                      Independent Scrum Trainer and Coach
                      Sierra-Charlie Consulting | Zurich | Switzerland
                      
                      Member of DasScrumTeam.de
                      
                      blog:  http://scrum-breakfast.com
                      tel:   +41 44 586 6450 
                      cell:  +41 79 422 6722
                      skype: peterstev


                    • Mark Levison
                      ... Perhaps but when your business is small say 1-4 people and your needs bounce from day to day, what does Agile look like? I try regular retrospectives, but
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 4, 2010
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                        On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Pierre Mengal <pierre@...> wrote:
                         

                        Peter,
                         
                        It's my personnal opinion and it's not specifically related to Scrum or Agile.
                         
                        The nature of my current professional occupation allows me to meet coaches & trainers every week (in various fields, such as sales, marketing, development, finances, management, hr, etc...)...
                         
                        ... and the best ones are those who still eat their own dog food.

                        Perhaps but when your business is small say 1-4 people and your needs bounce from day to day, what does Agile look like? I try regular retrospectives, but with the day to pressure with out my own ScrumMaster/Coach somethings get missed. After what is Test Driven: Networking, Presentation Prep, Billing, ...

                        I've tried Kanban for personal process and while its close, it does yet suit my personal nature. Perhaps if I were part of team it would be easier.

                        Cheers
                        Mark
                      • Adam Sroka
                        I agree. I write code almost every day. I have to work a bit harder to find something that I think is worth doing since it is no longer directly my job.
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 4, 2010
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                          I agree. I write code almost every day. I have to work a bit harder to find something that I think is worth doing since it is no longer directly my job. However, I also get to do more interesting stuff (Business problems can be boring ;-)

                          I'm still not the best programmer I know, but I think I'm the best that I can be today, and I think it would be unethical of me to sell what I sell if it were otherwise.

                          On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Pierre Mengal <pierre@...> wrote:
                           

                          Peter,
                           
                          It's my personnal opinion and it's not specifically related to Scrum or Agile.
                           
                          The nature of my current professional occupation allows me to meet coaches & trainers every week (in various fields, such as sales, marketing, development, finances, management, hr, etc...)...
                           
                          ... and the best ones are those who still eat their own dog food.

                          Warm regards,

                          Pierre Mengal


                          On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Peter Stevens (cal) <peterstev@...> wrote:
                           

                          On 04.06.10 11:14, Pierre Mengal wrote:
                           

                          @Thais, Subscribed to that one too. Henrik has something very valuable: he uses Scrum in his own company -daily-. There is far too much Scrum coaches/trainer that stopped practicing.

                          Rebonjour,

                          Interesting statement, Pierre! What are the symptoms of coach/trainer blogs who aren't practicing?

                          Cheers,

                          Peter
                          -- 
                          Peter Stevens, CSM, CSPO, CSP
                          Independent Scrum Trainer and Coach
                          Sierra-Charlie Consulting | Zurich | Switzerland
                          
                          Member of DasScrumTeam.de
                          
                          blog:  http://scrum-breakfast.com
                          tel:   +41 44 586 6450 
                          cell:  +41 79 422 6722
                          skype: peterstev



                        • Bachan Anand
                          Yes Mark you are right , if we were part of a team it would be easier and for me it makes a lot of sense for coaches and consultants to team up. I always focus
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 4, 2010
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                            Yes Mark you are right , if we were part of a team it would be easier and for me it makes a lot of sense for coaches and consultants to team up. I always focus on building teams to work together and collaborate .

                            I leverage task board, retrospectives and stand-ups.

                            Bachan Anand
                            WORK is GOOD
                            Tel  +1-949-232-8900
                            Contact Me LinkedinFacebookFacebookTwitter


                            On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
                             

                            On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Pierre Mengal <pierre@...> wrote:
                             

                            Peter,
                             
                            It's my personnal opinion and it's not specifically related to Scrum or Agile.
                             
                            The nature of my current professional occupation allows me to meet coaches & trainers every week (in various fields, such as sales, marketing, development, finances, management, hr, etc...)...
                             
                            ... and the best ones are those who still eat their own dog food.

                            Perhaps but when your business is small say 1-4 people and your needs bounce from day to day, what does Agile look like? I try regular retrospectives, but with the day to pressure with out my own ScrumMaster/Coach somethings get missed. After what is Test Driven: Networking, Presentation Prep, Billing, ...

                            I've tried Kanban for personal process and while its close, it does yet suit my personal nature. Perhaps if I were part of team it would be easier.

                            Cheers
                            Mark

                          • Jeff Anderson
                            Lol, You caught me, here I thought I was being clever... Jeff ... -- Sent from my mobile device Jeff Anderson http://agileconsulting.blogspot.com/
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 7, 2010
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                              Lol,

                              You caught me, here I thought I was being clever...

                              Jeff

                              On 6/2/10, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > My oh My! Such language!!
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > And someone is an a$$hole because?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I sure hope the answer is not that he is a UMLing, RUP loving, kanban
                              > boarding, cycle timing sort of guy. That would certainly be arguing ad
                              > hominem, which is quite a despicable way to carry on a discussion.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Perhaps being UMLing, RUP loving, kanban boarding, cycle timing does imply
                              > that he ought not advertise himself as being 'agile', but then, that does
                              > not necessarilly follow.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > But Thanks for the 'head up'. I will immediately go to that website and see
                              > what he is about. (which maks me wonder if you are in fact he, and this was
                              > a very cunning way to draw attetion to your website.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              >
                              > Roy Morien
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: Thomasjeffreyandersontwin@...
                              > Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 19:11:44 -0400
                              > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum/Agile Blog
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > What ever you do, don't go to agileconsulting.blospot.com, that guy is
                              > UMLing, RUP loving, kanban boarding, cycle timing a$$hole...
                              >
                              > Most definitely not agile...
                              >
                              > On 6/2/10, Peter Stevens (calendar) <peterstev@...> wrote:
                              >> Bonjour Pierre,
                              >>
                              >> There are a couple aggregators out there. Here are the ones I see in my
                              >> feedburner stats.
                              >>
                              >> * ScrumPlanet <http://scrumplanet.com/aggregator/sources>
                              >> * Agile and Lean
                              >> <http://www.agileandlean.de/scrumandkanbanblogs/index.html>
                              >> * Agile Voices <http://agilevoices.com/aggregator/sources>
                              >>
                              >> Each of these has a directory of their sources.
                              >>
                              >> Dzone has an agile tag <http://www.dzone.com/links/tag/agile.html>, but
                              >> does not AFAIK have an index of their sources.
                              >>
                              >> There may of course be more.
                              >>
                              >> Cheers,
                              >>
                              >> Peter
                              >>
                              >> On 02.06.10 11:57, Pierre Mengal wrote:
                              >>> Hello,
                              >>> I would like to subscribe to some RSS feeds about Scrum and/or Agile.
                              >>> Could you please suggest me which one I should consider ? My Google
                              >>> Reader suggestion tool is not helping me so much ;)
                              >>> I'm not specifically looking for the most popular ones.
                              >>> Thanks a million.
                              >>>
                              >>> Warm regards,
                              >>>
                              >>> Pierre Mengal
                              >>> CSP
                              >>> .
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> --
                              >> Peter Stevens, CSM, CSPO, CSP
                              >> www.scrum-breakfast.com
                              >> tel: +41 44 586 6450
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              > --
                              > Sent from my mobile device
                              >
                              > Jeff Anderson
                              >
                              > http://agileconsulting.blogspot.com/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > _________________________________________________________________
                              > View photos of singles in your area! Looking for a hot date?
                              > http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/

                              --
                              Sent from my mobile device

                              Jeff Anderson

                              http://agileconsulting.blogspot.com/
                            • Roy Morien
                              yeah To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com From: Thomasjeffreyandersontwin@Gmail.com Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 20:22:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment]
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 8, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                 yeah
                                 

                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                From: Thomasjeffreyandersontwin@...
                                Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 20:22:58 -0400
                                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum/Agile Blog

                                 
                                Lol,

                                You caught me, here I thought I was being clever...

                                Jeff

                                On 6/2/10, Roy Morien <roymorien@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > My oh My! Such language!!
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > And someone is an a$$hole because?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I sure hope the answer is not that he is a UMLing, RUP loving, kanban
                                > boarding, cycle timing sort of guy. That would certainly be arguing ad
                                > hominem, which is quite a despicable way to carry on a discussion.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Perhaps being UMLing, RUP loving, kanban boarding, cycle timing does imply
                                > that he ought not advertise himself as being 'agile', but then, that does
                                > not necessarilly follow.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > But Thanks for the 'head up'. I will immediately go to that website and see
                                > what he is about. (which maks me wonder if you are in fact he, and this was
                                > a very cunning way to draw attetion to your website.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                >
                                > Roy Morien
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                > From: Thomasjeffreyandersontwin@...
                                > Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 19:11:44 -0400
                                > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum/Agile Blog
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > What ever you do, don't go to agileconsulting.blospot.com, that guy is
                                > UMLing, RUP loving, kanban boarding, cycle timing a$$hole...
                                >
                                > Most definitely not agile...
                                >
                                > On 6/2/10, Peter Stevens (calendar) <peterstev@...> wrote:
                                >> Bonjour Pierre,
                                >>
                                >> There are a couple aggregators out there. Here are the ones I see in my
                                >> feedburner stats.
                                >>
                                >> * ScrumPlanet <http://scrumplanet.com/aggregator/sources>
                                >> * Agile and Lean
                                >> <http://www.agileandlean.de/scrumandkanbanblogs/index.html>
                                >> * Agile Voices <http://agilevoices.com/aggregator/sources>
                                >>
                                >> Each of these has a directory of their sources.
                                >>
                                >> Dzone has an agile tag <http://www.dzone.com/links/tag/agile.html>, but
                                >> does not AFAIK have an index of their sources.
                                >>
                                >> There may of course be more.
                                >>
                                >> Cheers,
                                >>
                                >> Peter
                                >>
                                >> On 02.06.10 11:57, Pierre Mengal wrote:
                                >>> Hello,
                                >>> I would like to subscribe to some RSS feeds about Scrum and/or Agile.
                                >>> Could you please suggest me which one I should consider ? My Google
                                >>> Reader suggestion tool is not helping me so much ;)
                                >>> I'm not specifically looking for the most popular ones.
                                >>> Thanks a million.
                                >>>
                                >>> Warm regards,
                                >>>
                                >>> Pierre Mengal
                                >>> CSP
                                >>> .
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> --
                                >> Peter Stevens, CSM, CSPO, CSP
                                >> www.scrum-breakfast.com
                                >> tel: +41 44 586 6450
                                >>
                                >>
                                >
                                > --
                                > Sent from my mobile device
                                >
                                > Jeff Anderson
                                >
                                > http://agileconsulting.blogspot.com/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > __________________________________________________________
                                > View photos of singles in your area! Looking for a hot date?
                                > http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/

                                --
                                Sent from my mobile device

                                Jeff Anderson

                                http://agileconsulting.blogspot.com/



                                Looking for a hot date? View photos of singles in your area!
                              • Pierre Mengal
                                On Dzone, I got this article today: http://www.dzone.com/links/rss/scrum_is_a_flow_state_interrupter.html Warm regards, Pierre Mengal On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 8, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  On Dzone, I got this article today:

                                  http://www.dzone.com/links/rss/scrum_is_a_flow_state_interrupter.html

                                  Warm regards,

                                  Pierre Mengal


                                  On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 9:13 PM, Peter Stevens (calendar) <peterstev@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Bonjour Pierre,

                                  There are a couple aggregators out there. Here are the ones I see in my feedburner stats.

                                  Each of these has a directory of their sources.

                                  Dzone has an agile tag, but does not AFAIK have an index of their sources.

                                  There may of course be more.

                                  Cheers,

                                  Peter

                                  On 02.06.10 11:57, Pierre Mengal wrote:
                                   


                                  -- 
                                  Peter Stevens, CSM, CSPO, CSP
                                  www.scrum-breakfast.com
                                  tel: +41 44 586 6450 
                                  

                                • Jeff Anderson
                                  Just read the complete trail, and jeff dude can t even type, what a ... Here we go again... Agileconsulting.blogspot.com ... -- Sent from my mobile device Jeff
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 8, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Just read the complete trail, and jeff dude can't even type, what a ...

                                    Here we go again...

                                    Agileconsulting.blogspot.com




                                    On 6/8/10, Pierre Mengal <pierre@...> wrote:
                                    > On Dzone, I got this article today:
                                    >
                                    > http://www.dzone.com/links/rss/scrum_is_a_flow_state_interrupter.html
                                    >
                                    > Warm regards,
                                    >
                                    > Pierre Mengal
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 9:13 PM, Peter Stevens (calendar) <
                                    > peterstev@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> Bonjour Pierre,
                                    >>
                                    >> There are a couple aggregators out there. Here are the ones I see in my
                                    >> feedburner stats.
                                    >>
                                    >> - ScrumPlanet <http://scrumplanet.com/aggregator/sources>
                                    >> - Agile and
                                    >> Lean<http://www.agileandlean.de/scrumandkanbanblogs/index.html>
                                    >> - Agile Voices <http://agilevoices.com/aggregator/sources>
                                    >>
                                    >> Each of these has a directory of their sources.
                                    >>
                                    >> Dzone has an agile tag <http://www.dzone.com/links/tag/agile.html>, but
                                    >> does not AFAIK have an index of their sources.
                                    >>
                                    >> There may of course be more.
                                    >>
                                    >> Cheers,
                                    >>
                                    >> Peter
                                    >>
                                    >> On 02.06.10 11:57, Pierre Mengal wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> --
                                    >> Peter Stevens, CSM, CSPO, CSPwww.scrum-breakfast.com
                                    >> tel: +41 44 586 6450
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >

                                    --
                                    Sent from my mobile device

                                    Jeff Anderson

                                    http://agileconsulting.blogspot.com/
                                  • Jussi Mononen
                                    ... Hi, Jurgen Appelo has done some great work with blog gathering and ranking, you should go and see!
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jun 11, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      On 06/02/2010 12:57 PM, Pierre Mengal wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello,
                                      > I would like to subscribe to some RSS feeds about Scrum and/or Agile.
                                      > Could you please suggest me which one I should consider ? My Google
                                      > Reader suggestion tool is not helping me so much ;)
                                      > I'm not specifically looking for the most popular ones.

                                      Hi,

                                      Jurgen Appelo has done some great work with blog gathering and ranking,
                                      you should go and see!

                                      http://www.noop.nl/2009/09/top-200-blogs-for-developers-q3-2009.html
                                      http://www.noop.nl/2010/04/top-150-management-leadership-blogs.html

                                      OPML-files included, so just d/l and import to your favourite reader.

                                      Br,

                                      --
                                      - Agile Poodle
                                      - http://www.jussimononen.info/
                                      - http://www.twitter.com/agilepoodle
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