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RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Remote Customer

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  • Roy Morien
    It seems to me that the fundamental problem here is who is responsible for testing the software, and ensuring the bugs really are solved? . If not the
    Message 1 of 17 , May 26 8:13 PM
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      It seems to me that the fundamental problem here is 'who is responsible for testing the software, and ensuring the bugs really are solved?'.
       
      If not the developers, then they will quite happily send you back 'fixed' software that has no guarantee of really being fixed. AND if they do not have the full system available to them, they cannot test to see if their bug-fixes disrupt anything else in the system.
       
      Is the customer qualified to do that testing, to the point of guaranteeing the correctness of the bug-fixes? Why can they claim that a bugs not fixed, when you think it is fixed?

      If you are responsible for testing, then the developers have no real incentive to ensure they have done the work correctly. They can apparently rely on you to find out, and just need to say 'Damn, I thought that was working. I'll fix it up by tomorrow!". WHen do they get paid for the work of fixing the bug?
       
      Also, it is certainly a difficult and sub-optimal situation for you to have remote developers. That seems far more problematic to me tan remote users.
       
      Regards,
      Roy Morien

      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      From: safari_asad@...
      Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:57:18 +0000
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Remote Customer

       
      Thanks Mark

      I use Agile Development in my new projects . but in this project our agile get wrong.

      I have many problem in this project .

      I think my great problem is my Developers . My Developers are home workers. they work in his home .

      When Customer send bug list i send the bugs for developers. the developers solve (or spurious solve) their bugs and give back the new source to me . And I Compile it and create a patched version.

      I think it's our big problem. Can We recovery this project?

      cheers

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "woynam" <woyna@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > It doesn't sound like you can do much for this project, other than to use it as a learning experience. As you discovered, if you don't have well-defined (automated)acceptance tests, written with the assistance of the customer, then you run the risk of delivering buggy code that's unacceptable to the customer.
      >
      > Are the other projects doing the same thing? If so, then they're likely to fail as well.
      >
      > My suggestion, and I'm sure it'll be backed by others here, is to use agile development.
      >
      > It may be possible to save the current project, but it will involve a lot of test writing, and I'm not sure if you're going to get the OK to do it. You may discover that the amount of technical debt is massive.
      >
      > Again, the way to avoid technical debt is to test early and often, and focus on improving the code base along the way.
      >
      > Mark
      >
      > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Asad Safari <safari_asad@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Sure , it's not an agile project .  in first it's agile but in last it's not agile. We Don't have Automate test and it's our Big problem .
      > >
      > > The Customer Doesn't accept our releases and say that I can't test it more . I say that you are not a tester but he say that: "I Can't pay for a bad Software."
      > >
      > > We started other projects and this project being suspended . What we Can do for this project? We are in big problem.
      > >
      > > Safari Asad
      > >
      > > Software Project Manager, Team Leader, Agile And Scrum Coach
      > >
      > > http://sirasad.wordpress.com
      > >
      > > --- On Wed, 5/26/10, woynam <woyna@> wrote:
      > >
      > > From: woynam <woyna@>
      > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Remote Customer
      > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Wednesday, May 26, 2010, 9:46 AM
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >  
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Are you sure you're doing agile development? If you were, and you had completed 70% to 80% of the project, your customer would have been happy with the software in its state when you left.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Did you have automated acceptance tests? Did you have working software every iteration? Did the customer review the working software, and provide guidance?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I find it hard to believe that a team practicing agile development, working with the customer, delivering tested software acceptable to the customer each iteration, would suddenly start producing junk when they got back home.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > The root of the problem must have existed at the customer sight, assuming you're following the same development model back at the home office.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Mark
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Asad" <safari_asad@> wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Hi Folks,
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > We are working on a project that Customer is on other State. In start of project we worked on Customer site in their state. after Completing 70% or 80% of project we decided to leave customer site Because Customer Couldn't pay our accommodation Cost and we come back to our Office and release software remotely to customer. After Some works we done all requirements of Software and we release the software to customer. Customer after test the software , send a big list of errors and bugs to us.
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > We Solve the bugs and send patched version to customer But customer after test the software ,send a big list of errors and bugs Again . There's a big iterative. Sometimes We Fixed Bug "A" , but Customer say that this Bug still exist on software. or other problems.
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > I think we are in loop . the loop what doesn't has a finish.
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > We Should Done project 2 month ago but the project is continued And it's not finished yet.
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > If you have similar experience , please Guide us .
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Cheers
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      >




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    • Roy Morien
      Hi Asad, Is there any reason why you can t gather together the new software that has been fixed and hopefully tested properly, and go to the Customer site
      Message 2 of 17 , May 26 8:30 PM
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        Hi Asad,
         
        Is there any reason why you can't gather together the new software that has been 'fixed' and hopefully tested properly, and go to the Customer site and demonstrate it there. This will give you the opportunity to see first hand what is happening, and get immediate feedback from the customer.
         
        I was once in this situation where a remote customer was always coming back to me to tell me the still had problems, and new problems cropping up, even though we could not findthe problem in the software. So I actually went to the customer site
         
        Interesting situation! Yes, indeed, they had those problems that we couldn't see. So I had to try to track down what was happening and why the difference. ABout 3pm in he afternoon, everything suddenly started to go dim ... te lights dimmed, the airconditioners slowed down ... I could even here the main computer disk unit slow down (yeah, you could often hear the disk in those days).
         
        Immediately things started to go wrong with the running software ... bugs happened! I was quite horrieif about this, and asked what the hell just happened? They tol me that a huge machine in a monster open cut coal mine 30 kilometres away just restarted at the beginning of the new work shift. It was so huge (andwas electrically driven) that it temporilly drained the power grid of power ... it happened twice a day every day.
         
        So, the solution to the many software bugs was to install power protection. They did, we fixed up the software and especially the broken links in the database, and every thing worked from thereon in.
         
        Which also raises nother interesting problem about testing. I call it 'debugging your data', not debugging your code. Crappy data left over from previous testing and previous bugs that cause your perfectly good software to behave erratically. Hours can be spent debugging bug-free code becuase the data is rubbish.
         
        Regards,
        Roy Morien
         

        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        From: safari_asad@...
        Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:57:18 +0000
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Remote Customer

         
        Thanks Mark

        I use Agile Development in my new projects . but in this project our agile get wrong.

        I have many problem in this project .

        I think my great problem is my Developers . My Developers are home workers. they work in his home .

        When Customer send bug list i send the bugs for developers. the developers solve (or spurious solve) their bugs and give back the new source to me . And I Compile it and create a patched version.

        I think it's our big problem. Can We recovery this project?

        cheers

        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "woynam" <woyna@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > It doesn't sound like you can do much for this project, other than to use it as a learning experience. As you discovered, if you don't have well-defined (automated)acceptance tests, written with the assistance of the customer, then you run the risk of delivering buggy code that's unacceptable to the customer.
        >
        > Are the other projects doing the same thing? If so, then they're likely to fail as well.
        >
        > My suggestion, and I'm sure it'll be backed by others here, is to use agile development.
        >
        > It may be possible to save the current project, but it will involve a lot of test writing, and I'm not sure if you're going to get the OK to do it. You may discover that the amount of technical debt is massive.
        >
        > Again, the way to avoid technical debt is to test early and often, and focus on improving the code base along the way.
        >
        > Mark
        >
        > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Asad Safari <safari_asad@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Sure , it's not an agile project .  in first it's agile but in last it's not agile. We Don't have Automate test and it's our Big problem .
        > >
        > > The Customer Doesn't accept our releases and say that I can't test it more . I say that you are not a tester but he say that: "I Can't pay for a bad Software."
        > >
        > > We started other projects and this project being suspended . What we Can do for this project? We are in big problem.
        > >
        > > Safari Asad
        > >
        > > Software Project Manager, Team Leader, Agile And Scrum Coach
        > >
        > > http://sirasad.wordpress.com
        > >
        > > --- On Wed, 5/26/10, woynam <woyna@> wrote:
        > >
        > > From: woynam <woyna@>
        > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Remote Customer
        > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        > > Date: Wednesday, May 26, 2010, 9:46 AM
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >  
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Are you sure you're doing agile development? If you were, and you had completed 70% to 80% of the project, your customer would have been happy with the software in its state when you left.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Did you have automated acceptance tests? Did you have working software every iteration? Did the customer review the working software, and provide guidance?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I find it hard to believe that a team practicing agile development, working with the customer, delivering tested software acceptable to the customer each iteration, would suddenly start producing junk when they got back home.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > The root of the problem must have existed at the customer sight, assuming you're following the same development model back at the home office.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Mark
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Asad" <safari_asad@> wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > > Hi Folks,
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > > We are working on a project that Customer is on other State. In start of project we worked on Customer site in their state. after Completing 70% or 80% of project we decided to leave customer site Because Customer Couldn't pay our accommodation Cost and we come back to our Office and release software remotely to customer. After Some works we done all requirements of Software and we release the software to customer. Customer after test the software , send a big list of errors and bugs to us.
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > > We Solve the bugs and send patched version to customer But customer after test the software ,send a big list of errors and bugs Again . There's a big iterative. Sometimes We Fixed Bug "A" , but Customer say that this Bug still exist on software. or other problems.
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > > I think we are in loop . the loop what doesn't has a finish.
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > > We Should Done project 2 month ago but the project is continued And it's not finished yet.
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > > If you have similar experience , please Guide us .
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > > Cheers
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        >




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      • Asad
        Thank you to all Friends for good Solutions . I Deiced to Invite customer to our state And Rent a Place for compilation the Developers and customer in our Site
        Message 3 of 17 , May 27 12:23 PM
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          Thank you to all Friends for good Solutions .

          I Deiced to Invite customer to our state And Rent a Place for compilation the Developers and customer in our Site .

          In first We Want to Find Worked parts of Software and get Customer Agreement about those Parts. So Find Not Worked or Buged parts of Software.At last , Fix the bugs and delivered the working software to customer in our site .


          Is this Good Solution ?

          Cheers
        • Victor Hugo de Oliveira
          Asad, if you can get the developers and the customer on the same room, odds are you will greatly increase the communication between them. This is just part of
          Message 4 of 17 , May 27 12:42 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Asad,

               if you can get the developers and the customer on the same room, odds are you will greatly increase the communication between them.
               This is just part of the problem, but I think it is a great starting point for the other issues.

            Best Regards,
            Victor 

            On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Asad <safari_asad@...> wrote:
             

            Thank you to all Friends for good Solutions .

            I Deiced to Invite customer to our state And Rent a Place for compilation the Developers and customer in our Site .

            In first We Want to Find Worked parts of Software and get Customer Agreement about those Parts. So Find Not Worked or Buged parts of Software.At last , Fix the bugs and delivered the working software to customer in our site .

            Is this Good Solution ?

            Cheers




            --
            Victor Hugo de Oliveira

            Scrum & Agile Blog
            http://csvo.wordpress.com

            Concrete Solutions
            new edition: http://www.concretesolutions.com.br/index_eng/

            +55 21 2240 2030
            +55 11 4119 0449
            R. São José 90, 2121
            20010-020
            Rio de Janeiro, RJ, Brasil
          • Fabiano Macedo
            It can work but, you need tell to developers for not talk about soluctions terms, just talk about scenarios and workflows. Fabiano Félix Macedo msn :
            Message 5 of 17 , May 27 12:49 PM
            • 0 Attachment
                  It can work but, you need tell to developers for not talk about soluctions terms, just talk about scenarios and workflows.
               
              Fabiano Félix Macedo



              De: Victor Hugo de Oliveira <victor.oliveira@...>
              Para: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Enviadas: Quinta-feira, 27 de Maio de 2010 16:42:52
              Assunto: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Remote Customer

               

              Asad,


                 if you can get the developers and the customer on the same room, odds are you will greatly increase the communication between them.
                 This is just part of the problem, but I think it is a great starting point for the other issues.

              Best Regards,
              Victor 

              On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Asad <safari_asad@ yahoo.com> wrote:
               

              Thank you to all Friends for good Solutions .

              I Deiced to Invite customer to our state And Rent a Place for compilation the Developers and customer in our Site .

              In first We Want to Find Worked parts of Software and get Customer Agreement about those Parts. So Find Not Worked or Buged parts of Software.At last , Fix the bugs and delivered the working software to customer in our site .

              Is this Good Solution ?

              Cheers




              --
              Victor Hugo de Oliveira

              Scrum & Agile Blog
              http://csvo. wordpress. com

              Concrete Solutions
              new edition: http://www.concrete solutions. com.br/index_ eng/

              +55 21 2240 2030
              +55 11 4119 0449
              R. São José 90, 2121
              20010-020
              Rio de Janeiro, RJ, Brasil

               
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