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Re: Remote Customer

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  • Jeff
    Hi, In my view, virtually every situation has a solution. If there is no solution, then there is no problem - it s just fact. Where do you believe you stand
    Message 1 of 17 , May 26, 2010
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      Hi,

      In my view, virtually every situation has a solution. If there is no solution, then there is no problem - it's just fact. Where do you believe you stand in that mix?

      For the most part, I'll skip all the 'should have' theory and just focus on solutions. Except, I must comment on at least this one, where you later write:

      >>We started other projects and this project being suspended . What we Can do for this project? We are in big problem.<<

      Who suspended it, you or the customer, or both? Saying 'this is a big problem' - I am disheartened to see you moving on to other projects. How do you know the next projects will not have the same result? Where is the shared learning? Where is the commitment to the customer? I'm guessing that no matter what you do, this will certainly not turn into a "good customer reference" - but you perhaps have a chance to save some face.

      Your statements of:
      "remote customer - another state" and >>I think my great problem is my Developers . My Developers are home workers. they work in his home
      When Customer send bug list i send the bugs for developers. the developers solve (or spurious solve) their bugs and give back the new source to me . And I Compile it and create a patched version. I think it's our big problem. Can We recovery this project? <<

      All of that are just excuses trying to find the blame. I have done many projects where no one was collocated and I never saw the customer face to face that had excellent results. I am not advocating that approach, but it is not the root cause - although the real problem(s) may be greatly heightened without co-location.

      In another reply, petecruth writes >>As long as you're doing the final test and integration, they're not necessarily incented to ensure that the software is properly tested.<< I have a bigger question - who is testing this end to end before it gets sent to the customer? The process appears broken there as a start - and the definition of "done" is not universally agreed upon. Sure, I don't know the details, but I have seen this so many times from developers who simply do not test. There are probably many more factors, and probably a lot of miscommunication and lack of root cause analysis.

      Solving the problem is going to take commitment, and agreed upon definition of "done". If the different locations are really an issue, remote access may help - or better yet, send one person from your team (or you) to the client site to see firsthand - and be in constant communication with the development team with remote access. It would go along way as commitment in the customer's eyes. You are obviously already way behind schedule and over budget - the only real question is your organization is committed to fixing it (even at additional cost without reimbursement), and if the customer has already given up and lost all faith or not.

      The team must commit - it's that simple. And why are you asking the question here? The question should be posed to the team. And if the team can't figure it out - it was doomed from the start.

      Jeff

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Asad" <safari_asad@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Folks,
      >
      > We are working on a project that Customer is on other State. In start of project we worked on Customer site in their state. after Completing 70% or 80% of project we decided to leave customer site Because Customer Couldn't pay our accommodation Cost and we come back to our Office and release software remotely to customer. After Some works we done all requirements of Software and we release the software to customer. Customer after test the software , send a big list of errors and bugs to us.
      >
      > We Solve the bugs and send patched version to customer But customer after test the software ,send a big list of errors and bugs Again . There's a big iterative. Sometimes We Fixed Bug "A" , but Customer say that this Bug still exist on software. or other problems.
      >
      > I think we are in loop . the loop what doesn't has a finish.
      >
      > We Should Done project 2 month ago but the project is continued And it's not finished yet.
      >
      >
      > If you have similar experience , please Guide us .
      >
      >
      > Cheers
      >
    • Richard Whitten (Cont)
      Hi Asad, As you can see from the responses, you are not using Agile practices, or you would not be here . A possible way through this is to demo the software
      Message 2 of 17 , May 26, 2010
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        Hi Asad,

         

        As you can see from the responses, you are not using Agile practices, or you would not be here . 

         

        A possible way through this is to demo the software in its current state with everyone in attendance (at least in a conference).  This includes developers, QA and the customers.  As you demo the software, document things that do work to the customer’s satisfaction.  Get agreement, preferably in the demo that this is the definitive list of items to fix for customer acceptance of the software.  Then fix the software and test thoroughly before turning over to the customer.  This may get you out of the loop that you are in, unless there are other things going on here.

         

        Rich

         

      • Roy Morien
        It seems to me that the fundamental problem here is who is responsible for testing the software, and ensuring the bugs really are solved? . If not the
        Message 3 of 17 , May 26, 2010
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          It seems to me that the fundamental problem here is 'who is responsible for testing the software, and ensuring the bugs really are solved?'.
           
          If not the developers, then they will quite happily send you back 'fixed' software that has no guarantee of really being fixed. AND if they do not have the full system available to them, they cannot test to see if their bug-fixes disrupt anything else in the system.
           
          Is the customer qualified to do that testing, to the point of guaranteeing the correctness of the bug-fixes? Why can they claim that a bugs not fixed, when you think it is fixed?

          If you are responsible for testing, then the developers have no real incentive to ensure they have done the work correctly. They can apparently rely on you to find out, and just need to say 'Damn, I thought that was working. I'll fix it up by tomorrow!". WHen do they get paid for the work of fixing the bug?
           
          Also, it is certainly a difficult and sub-optimal situation for you to have remote developers. That seems far more problematic to me tan remote users.
           
          Regards,
          Roy Morien

          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          From: safari_asad@...
          Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:57:18 +0000
          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Remote Customer

           
          Thanks Mark

          I use Agile Development in my new projects . but in this project our agile get wrong.

          I have many problem in this project .

          I think my great problem is my Developers . My Developers are home workers. they work in his home .

          When Customer send bug list i send the bugs for developers. the developers solve (or spurious solve) their bugs and give back the new source to me . And I Compile it and create a patched version.

          I think it's our big problem. Can We recovery this project?

          cheers

          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "woynam" <woyna@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > It doesn't sound like you can do much for this project, other than to use it as a learning experience. As you discovered, if you don't have well-defined (automated)acceptance tests, written with the assistance of the customer, then you run the risk of delivering buggy code that's unacceptable to the customer.
          >
          > Are the other projects doing the same thing? If so, then they're likely to fail as well.
          >
          > My suggestion, and I'm sure it'll be backed by others here, is to use agile development.
          >
          > It may be possible to save the current project, but it will involve a lot of test writing, and I'm not sure if you're going to get the OK to do it. You may discover that the amount of technical debt is massive.
          >
          > Again, the way to avoid technical debt is to test early and often, and focus on improving the code base along the way.
          >
          > Mark
          >
          > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Asad Safari <safari_asad@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Sure , it's not an agile project .  in first it's agile but in last it's not agile. We Don't have Automate test and it's our Big problem .
          > >
          > > The Customer Doesn't accept our releases and say that I can't test it more . I say that you are not a tester but he say that: "I Can't pay for a bad Software."
          > >
          > > We started other projects and this project being suspended . What we Can do for this project? We are in big problem.
          > >
          > > Safari Asad
          > >
          > > Software Project Manager, Team Leader, Agile And Scrum Coach
          > >
          > > http://sirasad.wordpress.com
          > >
          > > --- On Wed, 5/26/10, woynam <woyna@> wrote:
          > >
          > > From: woynam <woyna@>
          > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Remote Customer
          > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          > > Date: Wednesday, May 26, 2010, 9:46 AM
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >  
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Are you sure you're doing agile development? If you were, and you had completed 70% to 80% of the project, your customer would have been happy with the software in its state when you left.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Did you have automated acceptance tests? Did you have working software every iteration? Did the customer review the working software, and provide guidance?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I find it hard to believe that a team practicing agile development, working with the customer, delivering tested software acceptable to the customer each iteration, would suddenly start producing junk when they got back home.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The root of the problem must have existed at the customer sight, assuming you're following the same development model back at the home office.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Mark
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Asad" <safari_asad@> wrote:
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > Hi Folks,
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > We are working on a project that Customer is on other State. In start of project we worked on Customer site in their state. after Completing 70% or 80% of project we decided to leave customer site Because Customer Couldn't pay our accommodation Cost and we come back to our Office and release software remotely to customer. After Some works we done all requirements of Software and we release the software to customer. Customer after test the software , send a big list of errors and bugs to us.
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > We Solve the bugs and send patched version to customer But customer after test the software ,send a big list of errors and bugs Again . There's a big iterative. Sometimes We Fixed Bug "A" , but Customer say that this Bug still exist on software. or other problems.
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > I think we are in loop . the loop what doesn't has a finish.
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > We Should Done project 2 month ago but the project is continued And it's not finished yet.
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > If you have similar experience , please Guide us .
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > Cheers
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          >




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        • Roy Morien
          Hi Asad, Is there any reason why you can t gather together the new software that has been fixed and hopefully tested properly, and go to the Customer site
          Message 4 of 17 , May 26, 2010
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            Hi Asad,
             
            Is there any reason why you can't gather together the new software that has been 'fixed' and hopefully tested properly, and go to the Customer site and demonstrate it there. This will give you the opportunity to see first hand what is happening, and get immediate feedback from the customer.
             
            I was once in this situation where a remote customer was always coming back to me to tell me the still had problems, and new problems cropping up, even though we could not findthe problem in the software. So I actually went to the customer site
             
            Interesting situation! Yes, indeed, they had those problems that we couldn't see. So I had to try to track down what was happening and why the difference. ABout 3pm in he afternoon, everything suddenly started to go dim ... te lights dimmed, the airconditioners slowed down ... I could even here the main computer disk unit slow down (yeah, you could often hear the disk in those days).
             
            Immediately things started to go wrong with the running software ... bugs happened! I was quite horrieif about this, and asked what the hell just happened? They tol me that a huge machine in a monster open cut coal mine 30 kilometres away just restarted at the beginning of the new work shift. It was so huge (andwas electrically driven) that it temporilly drained the power grid of power ... it happened twice a day every day.
             
            So, the solution to the many software bugs was to install power protection. They did, we fixed up the software and especially the broken links in the database, and every thing worked from thereon in.
             
            Which also raises nother interesting problem about testing. I call it 'debugging your data', not debugging your code. Crappy data left over from previous testing and previous bugs that cause your perfectly good software to behave erratically. Hours can be spent debugging bug-free code becuase the data is rubbish.
             
            Regards,
            Roy Morien
             

            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            From: safari_asad@...
            Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:57:18 +0000
            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Remote Customer

             
            Thanks Mark

            I use Agile Development in my new projects . but in this project our agile get wrong.

            I have many problem in this project .

            I think my great problem is my Developers . My Developers are home workers. they work in his home .

            When Customer send bug list i send the bugs for developers. the developers solve (or spurious solve) their bugs and give back the new source to me . And I Compile it and create a patched version.

            I think it's our big problem. Can We recovery this project?

            cheers

            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "woynam" <woyna@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > It doesn't sound like you can do much for this project, other than to use it as a learning experience. As you discovered, if you don't have well-defined (automated)acceptance tests, written with the assistance of the customer, then you run the risk of delivering buggy code that's unacceptable to the customer.
            >
            > Are the other projects doing the same thing? If so, then they're likely to fail as well.
            >
            > My suggestion, and I'm sure it'll be backed by others here, is to use agile development.
            >
            > It may be possible to save the current project, but it will involve a lot of test writing, and I'm not sure if you're going to get the OK to do it. You may discover that the amount of technical debt is massive.
            >
            > Again, the way to avoid technical debt is to test early and often, and focus on improving the code base along the way.
            >
            > Mark
            >
            > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Asad Safari <safari_asad@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Sure , it's not an agile project .  in first it's agile but in last it's not agile. We Don't have Automate test and it's our Big problem .
            > >
            > > The Customer Doesn't accept our releases and say that I can't test it more . I say that you are not a tester but he say that: "I Can't pay for a bad Software."
            > >
            > > We started other projects and this project being suspended . What we Can do for this project? We are in big problem.
            > >
            > > Safari Asad
            > >
            > > Software Project Manager, Team Leader, Agile And Scrum Coach
            > >
            > > http://sirasad.wordpress.com
            > >
            > > --- On Wed, 5/26/10, woynam <woyna@> wrote:
            > >
            > > From: woynam <woyna@>
            > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Remote Customer
            > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            > > Date: Wednesday, May 26, 2010, 9:46 AM
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >  
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Are you sure you're doing agile development? If you were, and you had completed 70% to 80% of the project, your customer would have been happy with the software in its state when you left.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Did you have automated acceptance tests? Did you have working software every iteration? Did the customer review the working software, and provide guidance?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I find it hard to believe that a team practicing agile development, working with the customer, delivering tested software acceptable to the customer each iteration, would suddenly start producing junk when they got back home.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > The root of the problem must have existed at the customer sight, assuming you're following the same development model back at the home office.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Mark
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Asad" <safari_asad@> wrote:
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > Hi Folks,
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > We are working on a project that Customer is on other State. In start of project we worked on Customer site in their state. after Completing 70% or 80% of project we decided to leave customer site Because Customer Couldn't pay our accommodation Cost and we come back to our Office and release software remotely to customer. After Some works we done all requirements of Software and we release the software to customer. Customer after test the software , send a big list of errors and bugs to us.
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > We Solve the bugs and send patched version to customer But customer after test the software ,send a big list of errors and bugs Again . There's a big iterative. Sometimes We Fixed Bug "A" , but Customer say that this Bug still exist on software. or other problems.
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > I think we are in loop . the loop what doesn't has a finish.
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > We Should Done project 2 month ago but the project is continued And it's not finished yet.
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > If you have similar experience , please Guide us .
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > Cheers
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            >




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          • Asad
            Thank you to all Friends for good Solutions . I Deiced to Invite customer to our state And Rent a Place for compilation the Developers and customer in our Site
            Message 5 of 17 , May 27, 2010
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              Thank you to all Friends for good Solutions .

              I Deiced to Invite customer to our state And Rent a Place for compilation the Developers and customer in our Site .

              In first We Want to Find Worked parts of Software and get Customer Agreement about those Parts. So Find Not Worked or Buged parts of Software.At last , Fix the bugs and delivered the working software to customer in our site .


              Is this Good Solution ?

              Cheers
            • Victor Hugo de Oliveira
              Asad, if you can get the developers and the customer on the same room, odds are you will greatly increase the communication between them. This is just part of
              Message 6 of 17 , May 27, 2010
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                Asad,

                   if you can get the developers and the customer on the same room, odds are you will greatly increase the communication between them.
                   This is just part of the problem, but I think it is a great starting point for the other issues.

                Best Regards,
                Victor 

                On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Asad <safari_asad@...> wrote:
                 

                Thank you to all Friends for good Solutions .

                I Deiced to Invite customer to our state And Rent a Place for compilation the Developers and customer in our Site .

                In first We Want to Find Worked parts of Software and get Customer Agreement about those Parts. So Find Not Worked or Buged parts of Software.At last , Fix the bugs and delivered the working software to customer in our site .

                Is this Good Solution ?

                Cheers




                --
                Victor Hugo de Oliveira

                Scrum & Agile Blog
                http://csvo.wordpress.com

                Concrete Solutions
                new edition: http://www.concretesolutions.com.br/index_eng/

                +55 21 2240 2030
                +55 11 4119 0449
                R. São José 90, 2121
                20010-020
                Rio de Janeiro, RJ, Brasil
              • Fabiano Macedo
                It can work but, you need tell to developers for not talk about soluctions terms, just talk about scenarios and workflows. Fabiano Félix Macedo msn :
                Message 7 of 17 , May 27, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                      It can work but, you need tell to developers for not talk about soluctions terms, just talk about scenarios and workflows.
                   
                  Fabiano Félix Macedo



                  De: Victor Hugo de Oliveira <victor.oliveira@...>
                  Para: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Enviadas: Quinta-feira, 27 de Maio de 2010 16:42:52
                  Assunto: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Remote Customer

                   

                  Asad,


                     if you can get the developers and the customer on the same room, odds are you will greatly increase the communication between them.
                     This is just part of the problem, but I think it is a great starting point for the other issues.

                  Best Regards,
                  Victor 

                  On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Asad <safari_asad@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                   

                  Thank you to all Friends for good Solutions .

                  I Deiced to Invite customer to our state And Rent a Place for compilation the Developers and customer in our Site .

                  In first We Want to Find Worked parts of Software and get Customer Agreement about those Parts. So Find Not Worked or Buged parts of Software.At last , Fix the bugs and delivered the working software to customer in our site .

                  Is this Good Solution ?

                  Cheers




                  --
                  Victor Hugo de Oliveira

                  Scrum & Agile Blog
                  http://csvo. wordpress. com

                  Concrete Solutions
                  new edition: http://www.concrete solutions. com.br/index_ eng/

                  +55 21 2240 2030
                  +55 11 4119 0449
                  R. São José 90, 2121
                  20010-020
                  Rio de Janeiro, RJ, Brasil

                   
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