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The Need For an Intern Program

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  • ron_harrow
    I m sure that most of us would agree that Scrum is of great value. Not only can it help companies do a better job of producing software, it can have a positive
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 19, 2004
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      I'm sure that most of us would agree that Scrum is of great value.
      Not only can it help companies do a better job of producing
      software, it can have a positive impact on a much broader level.
      Scrum has the potential to return programming to its glory days when
      it was great fun to do and a very worthwhile profession to pursue.
      It also has the potential to save jobs as companies find it better
      to keep the development at home, rather than outsourcing it overseas.

      In order to realize these gains, two things must happen. First,
      Scrum needs to become widely adopted, and second, once adopted, it
      needs to be applied correctly. I'm sure that there are success
      stories of people employed by progressive organizations, who are
      self taught and properly applying Scrum with the support of a benign
      senior management team. However, I cannot believe that these
      consitute the majority of successful efforts to implement Scrum.

      I think that the most effective means of getting Scrum widely
      adopted is to create a corps of well trained consultants who either
      approach companies or are asked to come in. They then work with the
      company until it has gone through the necessary cultural changes and
      has adopted Scrum as a way of life. In time, these consultants can
      train other consultants, and the program can grow.

      This training can happen within the context of an intern program.
      An intern would be a person who has, at a minimum, gone through the
      Certified ScrumMaster class. He or she would then team with an
      experienced practising Scrum consultant, who would mentor the
      intern. The details need to be worked out, but basically, the
      intern would work with the mentor in an actual client setting,
      learning to apply Scrum in a real life situation. At some point,
      perhaps after three or four months, the intern would be ready to
      start working with companies on his/her own.

      All we need to get this program started is a few interested
      practising Scrum consultants and a few beginning Scrum consultants
      who have completed their certification training.

      Anyone interested?
    • Kar Mayvins
      Ron Interesting. I support your initiative. Regards Sri ron_harrow wrote: I m sure that most of us would agree that Scrum is of great
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 20, 2004
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        Ron
         
        Interesting. I support your initiative.
         
        Regards
        Sri

        ron_harrow <rharrow@...> wrote:
        I'm sure that most of us would agree that Scrum is of great value. 
        Not only can it help companies do a better job of producing
        software, it can have a positive impact on a much broader level. 
        Scrum has the potential to return programming to its glory days when
        it was great fun to do and a very worthwhile profession to pursue. 
        It also has the potential to save jobs as companies find it better
        to keep the development at home, rather than outsourcing it overseas.

        In order to realize these gains, two things must happen.  First,
        Scrum needs to become widely adopted, and second, once adopted, it
        needs to be applied correctly.  I'm sure that there are success
        stories of people employed by progressive organizations, who are
        self taught and properly applying Scrum with the support of a benign
        senior management team.  However, I cannot believe that these
        consitute the majority of successful efforts to implement Scrum.

        I think that the most effective means of getting Scrum widely
        adopted is to create a corps of well trained consultants who either
        approach companies or are asked to come in.  They then work with the
        company until it has gone through the necessary cultural changes and
        has adopted Scrum as a way of life.  In time, these consultants can
        train other consultants, and the program can grow.

        This training can happen within the context of an intern program. 
        An intern would be a person who has, at a minimum, gone through the
        Certified ScrumMaster class.  He or she would then team with an
        experienced practising Scrum consultant, who would mentor the
        intern.  The details need to be worked out, but basically, the
        intern would work with the mentor in an actual client setting,
        learning to apply Scrum in a real life situation.  At some point,
        perhaps after three or four months, the intern would be ready to
        start working with companies on his/her own.

        All we need to get this program started is a few interested
        practising Scrum consultants and a few beginning Scrum consultants
        who have completed their certification training.

        Anyone interested?




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      • Joseph Pelrine
        I know that Ken has been thinking about a mentoring system for CSMs. Although I think something like this would be a good idea, I would t want to venture any
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 20, 2004
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          I know that Ken has been thinking about a mentoring system for CSMs.
          Although I think something like this would be a good idea, I would't want
          to venture any thoughts about the financial viability of such an endeavour.

          Cheers
          Joseph

          At 22:24 19.09.2004, you wrote:
          >I'm sure that most of us would agree that Scrum is of great value.
          >Not only can it help companies do a better job of producing
          >software, it can have a positive impact on a much broader level.
          >Scrum has the potential to return programming to its glory days when
          >it was great fun to do and a very worthwhile profession to pursue.
          >It also has the potential to save jobs as companies find it better
          >to keep the development at home, rather than outsourcing it overseas.
          >
          >In order to realize these gains, two things must happen. First,
          >Scrum needs to become widely adopted, and second, once adopted, it
          >needs to be applied correctly. I'm sure that there are success
          >stories of people employed by progressive organizations, who are
          >self taught and properly applying Scrum with the support of a benign
          >senior management team. However, I cannot believe that these
          >consitute the majority of successful efforts to implement Scrum.
          >
          >I think that the most effective means of getting Scrum widely
          >adopted is to create a corps of well trained consultants who either
          >approach companies or are asked to come in. They then work with the
          >company until it has gone through the necessary cultural changes and
          >has adopted Scrum as a way of life. In time, these consultants can
          >train other consultants, and the program can grow.
          >
          >This training can happen within the context of an intern program.
          >An intern would be a person who has, at a minimum, gone through the
          >Certified ScrumMaster class. He or she would then team with an
          >experienced practising Scrum consultant, who would mentor the
          >intern. The details need to be worked out, but basically, the
          >intern would work with the mentor in an actual client setting,
          >learning to apply Scrum in a real life situation. At some point,
          >perhaps after three or four months, the intern would be ready to
          >start working with companies on his/her own.
          >
          >All we need to get this program started is a few interested
          >practising Scrum consultants and a few beginning Scrum consultants
          >who have completed their certification training.
          >
          >Anyone interested?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
          >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          >scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
          Joseph Pelrine [ | ]
          MetaProg GmbH
          Email: jpelrine@...
          Web: http://www.metaprog.com

          You don't become enormously successful without encountering some really
          interesting problems.
          - Mark Victor Hansen
        • ron_harrow
          Think of the Intern Program as an investment in all of our futures. Consider the rate at which Scrum has been adopted. Here are three unscientific pieces of
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 20, 2004
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            Think of the Intern Program as an investment in all of our futures.
            Consider the rate at which Scrum has been adopted. Here are three
            unscientific pieces of evidence:
            1. Nobody that I know in a professional capacity has ever heard of
            Scrum.
            2. If you compare "Scrum" against "XP" or "Xtreme Programming", you
            conservatively get about 10,000 times more hits for XP using a
            typical web search engine.
            3. If you do the same on Amazon's site, you'll find that at least
            10 times more books have been written about XP then Scrum.

            Yes, interns would have to be paid something, but his or her time
            needn't be billed at the same rate as the primary consultant. Think
            of the model that Wall Street lawyers use. An associate's time gets
            billed, on average, at around one third of the rate as a partner.
            Does that mean that the partner is losing one third of his income.
            No! By using associates, the partner is able to do much more
            business than he could have alone, thus significantly increasing his
            income. I don't see why the same financial model couldn't be used
            for the intern program.

            Ron

            <jpelrine@m...> wrote:
            > I know that Ken has been thinking about a mentoring system for
            CSMs.
            > Although I think something like this would be a good idea, I
            would't want
            > to venture any thoughts about the financial viability of such an
            endeavour.
            >
            > Cheers
            > Joseph
            >
            > At 22:24 19.09.2004, you wrote:
            > >I'm sure that most of us would agree that Scrum is of great value.
            > >Not only can it help companies do a better job of producing
            > >software, it can have a positive impact on a much broader level.
            > >Scrum has the potential to return programming to its glory days
            when
            > >it was great fun to do and a very worthwhile profession to pursue.
            > >It also has the potential to save jobs as companies find it better
            > >to keep the development at home, rather than outsourcing it
            overseas.
            > >
            > >In order to realize these gains, two things must happen. First,
            > >Scrum needs to become widely adopted, and second, once adopted, it
            > >needs to be applied correctly. I'm sure that there are success
            > >stories of people employed by progressive organizations, who are
            > >self taught and properly applying Scrum with the support of a
            benign
            > >senior management team. However, I cannot believe that these
            > >consitute the majority of successful efforts to implement Scrum.
            > >
            > >I think that the most effective means of getting Scrum widely
            > >adopted is to create a corps of well trained consultants who
            either
            > >approach companies or are asked to come in. They then work with
            the
            > >company until it has gone through the necessary cultural changes
            and
            > >has adopted Scrum as a way of life. In time, these consultants
            can
            > >train other consultants, and the program can grow.
            > >
            > >This training can happen within the context of an intern program.
            > >An intern would be a person who has, at a minimum, gone through
            the
            > >Certified ScrumMaster class. He or she would then team with an
            > >experienced practising Scrum consultant, who would mentor the
            > >intern. The details need to be worked out, but basically, the
            > >intern would work with the mentor in an actual client setting,
            > >learning to apply Scrum in a real life situation. At some point,
            > >perhaps after three or four months, the intern would be ready to
            > >start working with companies on his/her own.
            > >
            > >All we need to get this program started is a few interested
            > >practising Scrum consultants and a few beginning Scrum consultants
            > >who have completed their certification training.
            > >
            > >Anyone interested?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
            > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > >scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
            > >Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > Joseph Pelrine [ | ]
            > MetaProg GmbH
            > Email: jpelrine@m...
            > Web: http://www.metaprog.com
            >
            > You don't become enormously successful without encountering some
            really
            > interesting problems.
            > - Mark Victor Hansen
          • Gary F
            ... ... ... I m not sure I agree with the premise, but then I can t claim to be an expert on the way methodologies get adopted widely. But I have signed up
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 22, 2004
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              --- ron_harrow <rharrow@...> wrote:
              ...
              > I think that the most effective means of getting Scrum widely
              > adopted is to create a corps of well trained consultants who either
              > approach companies or are asked to come in. They then work with the
              ...
              ...
              > intern would work with the mentor in an actual client setting,
              > learning to apply Scrum in a real life situation. At some point,
              > perhaps after three or four months, the intern would be ready to
              > start working with companies on his/her own.
              >
              > All we need to get this program started is a few interested
              > practising Scrum consultants and a few beginning Scrum consultants
              > who have completed their certification training.
              >
              > Anyone interested?

              I'm not sure I agree with the premise, but then I can't claim to be an
              expert on the way methodologies get adopted widely. But I have signed
              up for the November Boston Scrum Master course, and I would certainly
              be eager to find internship or other bootstrapping opportunities.

              Gary



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            • Ron Harrow
              Hi Gary, I always find contrarian opinion to be so much more valuable then concurring. Please tell me why you re not sure that you agree with the premise.
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 23, 2004
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                Hi Gary,

                 

                I always find contrarian opinion to be so much more valuable then concurring.  Please tell me why you’re not sure that you agree with the premise.

                 

                Thanks,

                Ron

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Gary F [mailto:gfyho@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 5:54 PM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] The Need For an Intern Program

                 


                --- ron_harrow <rharrow@...> wrote:
                ...
                > I think that the most effective means of getting Scrum widely
                > adopted is to create a corps of well trained consultants who either
                > approach companies or are asked to come in.  They then work with the
                ...
                ...
                > intern would work with the mentor in an actual client setting,
                > learning to apply Scrum in a real life situation.  At some point,
                > perhaps after three or four months, the intern would be ready to
                > start working with companies on his/her own.
                >
                > All we need to get this program started is a few interested
                > practising Scrum consultants and a few beginning Scrum consultants
                > who have completed their certification training.
                >
                > Anyone interested?

                I'm not sure I agree with the premise, but then I can't claim to be an
                expert on the way methodologies get adopted widely.  But I have signed
                up for the November Boston Scrum Master course, and I would certainly
                be eager to find internship or other bootstrapping opportunities.

                Gary


                           
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              • Pam Rostal
                ... either ... the ... and ... can ... Are you interested in an alternative approach? We re developing an apprenticeship program at New Mexico Highlands
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 23, 2004
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                  > I think that the most effective means of getting Scrum widely
                  > adopted is to create a corps of well trained consultants who
                  either
                  > approach companies or are asked to come in. They then work with
                  the
                  > company until it has gone through the necessary cultural changes
                  and
                  > has adopted Scrum as a way of life. In time, these consultants
                  can
                  > train other consultants, and the program can grow.


                  Are you interested in an alternative approach? We're developing an
                  apprenticeship program at New Mexico Highlands University that
                  teaches software development from an agile perspective. All work is
                  done in pairs at tables set up expressly for the purpose of co-
                  development, in a room full of whiteboards. Our students will be
                  working on real projects from the government or commercial sector
                  (our first contract is in the customer's legal department right now
                  and should arrive early next week). When we require expertise that
                  we can't deliver ourselves, we have two external options: we can
                  bring in one of our Advisory Board members (e.g., Gerald Weinberg,
                  Ron Jeffries, Richard Gabriel, Ken Schwaber, Dave Thomas (Bedara),
                  Laurie Williams, and Alistair Cockburn, among others) who have
                  agreed to work with our students and clients, or we can bring in
                  competent people who have worked with us in the past -- e.g.,
                  graduate students who have already done some consulting or
                  professional consultants who just need to jump start the group --
                  for a week or two.

                  Since all of our students are learning Scrum to manage both their
                  academic and professional work, I would think that in a few months,
                  they would know what to expect from a Scrum Master and how to act as
                  part of a Scrum Team. If a client organization wanted to use our
                  students to build their software, they could send down their
                  potential Scrum Master, along with a partial team if desired, and
                  develop a small part of their project in our apprentice shop. With
                  the feedback from students and others, they will learn how to work
                  in an environment with self-organizing teams, high visibility,
                  frequent adaptation, and rapid feedback. I'm thinking it might be
                  like a cultural immersion experience.

                  The difference between the approaches is that coming into our group,
                  the people who don't know Scrum will be in the minority, so
                  diffusion of ideas should be more rapid than when a consultant comes
                  into a non-Scrum organization and has to effect multiple conversions
                  to a paradigm that may not be imaginable in certain organizational
                  cultures.

                  Since we're using mostly students with just a few experts (we call
                  it on-shoring), our reduced rates might offset the cost of
                  transportation for their own employees, which would make it feasible
                  for more companies.

                  We're just getting off the ground right now, but I'm confident the
                  great majority of our students will be successful because of their
                  strong desire to improve their lives (northern New Mexico is one of
                  the poorest areas of the country), so I'm hoping this alternative
                  might be available by early spring or so.

                  I'd be interested in people's feedback about this proposal.

                  Pam
                • tsteele@3riverstech.com
                  Though Pam s alternative approach sounds interesting, I think she may have difficulty convincing industry folks to come and learn from students . I am new
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                    Though Pam's alternative approach sounds interesting, I think she may have difficulty
                    convincing industry folks to come and "learn" from "students". I
                    am new to Scrum, but have been practicing Agile techniques for several years.

                    I firmly believe that the managers/stakeholders on the various projects I am involved
                    with are open to Agile ideas solely because of my past experience and success
                    developing software products.

                    Although the stellar line-up of external help Pam has in place could help overcome
                    any "learning from students" stigma.

                    Tom


                    ---- Original Message ----
                    From: Pam Rostal
                    Date: Thu 9/23/04 18:32
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: The Need For an Intern Program


                    > I think that the most effective means of getting Scrum widely
                    > adopted is to create a corps of well trained consultants who
                    either
                    > approach companies or are asked to come in. They then work with
                    the
                    > company until it has gone through the necessary cultural changes
                    and
                    > has adopted Scrum as a way of life. In time, these consultants
                    can
                    > train other consultants, and the program can grow.


                    Are you interested in an alternative approach? We're developing an
                    apprenticeship program at New Mexico Highlands University that
                    teaches software development from an agile perspective. All work is
                    done in pairs at tables set up expressly for the purpose of co-
                    development, in a room full of whiteboards. Our students will be
                    working on real projects from the government or commercial sector
                    (our first contract is in the customer's legal department right now
                    and should arrive early next week). When we require expertise that
                    we can't deliver ourselves, we have two external options: we can
                    bring in one of our Advisory Board members (e.g., Gerald Weinberg,
                    Ron Jeffries, Richard Gabriel, Ken Schwaber, Dave Thomas (Bedara),
                    Laurie Williams, and Alistair Cockburn, among others) who have
                    agreed to work with our students and clients, or we can bring in
                    competent people who have worked with us in the past -- e.g.,
                    graduate students who have already done some consulting or
                    professional consultants who just need to jump start the group --
                    for a week or two.

                    Since all of our students are learning Scrum to manage both their
                    academic and professional work, I would think that in a few months,
                    they would know what to expect from a Scrum Master and how to act as
                    part of a Scrum Team. If a client organization wanted to use our
                    students to build their software, they could send down their
                    potential Scrum Master, along with a partial team if desired, and
                    develop a small part of their project in our apprentice shop. With
                    the feedback from students and others, they will learn how to work
                    in an environment with self-organizing teams, high visibility,
                    frequent adaptation, and rapid feedback. I'm thinking it might be
                    like a cultural immersion experience.

                    The difference between the approaches is that coming into our group,
                    the people who don't know Scrum will be in the minority, so
                    diffusion of ideas should be more rapid than when a consultant comes
                    into a non-Scrum organization and has to effect multiple conversions
                    to a paradigm that may not be imaginable in certain organizational
                    cultures.

                    Since we're using mostly students with just a few experts (we call
                    it on-shoring), our reduced rates might offset the cost of
                    transportation for their own employees, which would make it feasible
                    for more companies.

                    We're just getting off the ground right now, but I'm confident the
                    great majority of our students will be successful because of their
                    strong desire to improve their lives (northern New Mexico is one of
                    the poorest areas of the country), so I'm hoping this alternative
                    might be available by early spring or so.

                    I'd be interested in people's feedback about this proposal.

                    Pam




                    To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • GaryDavid Jordan
                    Tom/ ET all: I am currently a student of Pam s at New Mexico Highlands University with the Software Development Program. I have recently learned about Scrum
                    Message 9 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                      Tom/ ET all:
                      I am currently a student of Pam's at New Mexico Highlands University
                      with the Software Development Program. I have recently learned about
                      Scrum and I am excited about its potential and possibilities. As a
                      former CEO of a corporation running treatment facilities for at-risk
                      you I was responsible for providing supervision for 135 employees
                      and 85 at-risk youth.
                      My point is that we used an unorthodox model known as Positive Peer
                      Culture that uses the same concepts as Scrum. Individuals that were
                      interested in PPC or other programs that wanted to convert to this
                      program would ask me where they and their employees could learn the
                      model. The answer always surprised them as I would tell them that
                      the at-risk youth and the dorm counselors would be the greatest
                      teachers. In PPC as in Scrum there are no experts, everyone has a
                      role and contributes what they know to all parties involved. You do
                      not have to have a PhD to teach scrum. At least this is my
                      understanding of scrum so far.
                      Why would it be so difficult to accept the idea that as
                      humans we can learn from those younger than us? To see a group of
                      students using scrum in their approach to developing software would
                      be an inspiration for those professionals that are interested in the
                      philosophy of scrum. There would definitely be a lack of egos and
                      intimidation and I assure you the students would offer a more
                      welcoming approach to an incredible process such as scrum. The
                      bottom line is all learn from each other ever day, students can
                      teach too!

                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, tsteele@3... wrote:
                      >
                      > Though Pam's alternative approach sounds interesting, I think she
                      may have difficulty
                      > convincing industry folks to come and "learn" from "students". I
                      > am new to Scrum, but have been practicing Agile techniques for
                      several years.
                      >
                      > I firmly believe that the managers/stakeholders on the various
                      projects I am involved
                      > with are open to Agile ideas solely because of my past experience
                      and success
                      > developing software products.
                      >
                      > Although the stellar line-up of external help Pam has in place
                      could help overcome
                      > any "learning from students" stigma.
                      >
                      > Tom
                      >
                      >
                      > ---- Original Message ----
                      > From: Pam Rostal
                      > Date: Thu 9/23/04 18:32
                      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: The Need For an Intern Program
                      >
                      >
                      > > I think that the most effective means of getting Scrum widely
                      > > adopted is to create a corps of well trained consultants who
                      > either
                      > > approach companies or are asked to come in. They then work with
                      > the
                      > > company until it has gone through the necessary cultural changes
                      > and
                      > > has adopted Scrum as a way of life. In time, these consultants
                      > can
                      > > train other consultants, and the program can grow.
                      >
                      >
                      > Are you interested in an alternative approach? We're developing
                      an
                      > apprenticeship program at New Mexico Highlands University that
                      > teaches software development from an agile perspective. All work
                      is
                      > done in pairs at tables set up expressly for the purpose of co-
                      > development, in a room full of whiteboards. Our students will be
                      > working on real projects from the government or commercial sector
                      > (our first contract is in the customer's legal department right
                      now
                      > and should arrive early next week). When we require expertise
                      that
                      > we can't deliver ourselves, we have two external options: we can
                      > bring in one of our Advisory Board members (e.g., Gerald Weinberg,
                      > Ron Jeffries, Richard Gabriel, Ken Schwaber, Dave Thomas (Bedara),
                      > Laurie Williams, and Alistair Cockburn, among others) who have
                      > agreed to work with our students and clients, or we can bring in
                      > competent people who have worked with us in the past -- e.g.,
                      > graduate students who have already done some consulting or
                      > professional consultants who just need to jump start the group --
                      > for a week or two.
                      >
                      > Since all of our students are learning Scrum to manage both their
                      > academic and professional work, I would think that in a few
                      months,
                      > they would know what to expect from a Scrum Master and how to act
                      as
                      > part of a Scrum Team. If a client organization wanted to use our
                      > students to build their software, they could send down their
                      > potential Scrum Master, along with a partial team if desired, and
                      > develop a small part of their project in our apprentice shop.
                      With
                      > the feedback from students and others, they will learn how to work
                      > in an environment with self-organizing teams, high visibility,
                      > frequent adaptation, and rapid feedback. I'm thinking it might be
                      > like a cultural immersion experience.
                      >
                      > The difference between the approaches is that coming into our
                      group,
                      > the people who don't know Scrum will be in the minority, so
                      > diffusion of ideas should be more rapid than when a consultant
                      comes
                      > into a non-Scrum organization and has to effect multiple
                      conversions
                      > to a paradigm that may not be imaginable in certain organizational
                      > cultures.
                      >
                      > Since we're using mostly students with just a few experts (we call
                      > it on-shoring), our reduced rates might offset the cost of
                      > transportation for their own employees, which would make it
                      feasible
                      > for more companies.
                      >
                      > We're just getting off the ground right now, but I'm confident the
                      > great majority of our students will be successful because of their
                      > strong desire to improve their lives (northern New Mexico is one
                      of
                      > the poorest areas of the country), so I'm hoping this alternative
                      > might be available by early spring or so.
                      >
                      > I'd be interested in people's feedback about this proposal.
                      >
                      > Pam
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-
                      unsubscribe@e...
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Jim.Hyslop
                      ... I believe you, and I would suspect most people on this list also believe you. But, think of who the target audience is: well-entrenched IT professionals
                      Message 10 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                        GaryDavid Jordan wrote:
                        > Why would it be so difficult to accept the idea that as
                        > humans we can learn from those younger than us? To see a group of
                        > students using scrum in their approach to developing software would
                        > be an inspiration for those professionals that are interested in the
                        > philosophy of scrum. There would definitely be a lack of egos and
                        > intimidation and I assure you the students would offer a more
                        > welcoming approach to an incredible process such as scrum. The
                        > bottom line is all learn from each other ever day, students can
                        > teach too!
                        I believe you, and I would suspect most people on this list also believe
                        you.

                        But, think of who the target audience is: well-entrenched IT professionals
                        who are used to "the status quo," where new graduates learn about "how it
                        works" from the seasoned professionals.

                        It's not us, the people on this list, that you have to convince - it's the
                        old-school, entrenched people, who are not as likely going to listen to
                        students.

                        --
                        Jim Hyslop
                        Senior Software Designer
                        Leitch Technology International Inc. (http://www.leitch.com)
                        Columnist, C/C++ Users Journal (http://www.cuj.com/experts)
                      • Steven Gordon
                        Furthermore, not only would this audience have to be convinced to participate, they would presumably also have to be convinced to pay what this service really
                        Message 11 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                          Furthermore, not only would this audience have to be convinced to participate, they would presumably
                          also have to be convinced to pay what this service really costs.
                           
                          Take it from somebody who is managing a somewhat similar program, a sustainable business model
                          for such a program is extremely challenging.  Even though we happen to have a captive market and
                          the value of our services have been demonstrated for 2 years to this market, now that our seed money
                          is running out, we are finding it quite challenging to obtain continuing financial support to cover our
                          overhead.
                           
                          Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                          Manager, Software Factory
                          Arizona State University
                          PO Box 875506
                          Tempe, AZ 85287-9509
                          http://sf.asu.edu
                          (480)-727-6271
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Jim.Hyslop [mailto:jim.hyslop@...]
                          Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:06 AM
                          To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
                          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: The Need For an Intern Program

                          GaryDavid Jordan wrote:
                          >       Why would it be so difficult to accept the idea that as
                          > humans we can learn from those younger than us? To see a group of
                          > students using scrum in their approach to developing software would
                          > be an inspiration for those professionals that are interested in the
                          > philosophy of scrum. There would definitely be a lack of egos and
                          > intimidation and I assure you the students would offer a more
                          > welcoming approach to an incredible process such as scrum. The
                          > bottom line is all learn from each other ever day, students can
                          > teach too!
                          I believe you, and I would suspect most people on this list also believe
                          you.

                          But, think of who the target audience is: well-entrenched IT professionals
                          who are used to "the status quo," where new graduates learn about "how it
                          works" from the seasoned professionals.

                          It's not us, the people on this list, that you have to convince - it's the
                          old-school, entrenched people, who are not as likely going to listen to
                          students.

                          --
                          Jim Hyslop
                          Senior Software Designer
                          Leitch Technology International Inc. (http://www.leitch.com)
                          Columnist, C/C++ Users Journal (http://www.cuj.com/experts)

                        • Michael Spayd
                          I will add my voice to this chorus. I don t believe you are likely to convince normal business people. Only if you were able to create a tipping point kind of
                          Message 12 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                            I will add my voice to this chorus. I don't believe you are likely to
                            convince normal business people. Only if you were able to create a
                            tipping point kind of situation. If your student as teacher intern
                            program got a real buzz to it, it is not implausible that businesses
                            would come flocking. If you decide that this is your path with a
                            heart--despite the voices that are saying it will be difficult to
                            impossible--then I suggest you work on the tipping point scenario,
                            find a Connector and a vehicle for the spread of the infection.

                            Good luck, whatever path you take.


                            --
                            Michael K. Spayd
                            COGILITY, llc
                            "Business Mind, Social Heart"
                            michael.spayd@...



                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Steven Gordon <sagordon@...>
                            Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:46:57 -0700
                            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: The Need For an Intern Program
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com


                            Furthermore, not only would this audience have to be convinced to
                            participate, they would presumably
                            also have to be convinced to pay what this service really costs.

                            Take it from somebody who is managing a somewhat similar program, a
                            sustainable business model
                            for such a program is extremely challenging. Even though we happen to
                            have a captive market and
                            the value of our services have been demonstrated for 2 years to this
                            market, now that our seed money
                            is running out, we are finding it quite challenging to obtain
                            continuing financial support to cover our
                            overhead.


                            Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                            Manager, Software Factory
                            Arizona State University
                            PO Box 875506
                            Tempe, AZ 85287-9509
                            http://sf.asu.edu
                            (480)-727-6271



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Jim.Hyslop [mailto:jim.hyslop@...]
                            Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:06 AM
                            To: 'scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com'
                            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: The Need For an Intern Program

                            GaryDavid Jordan wrote:
                            > Why would it be so difficult to accept the idea that as
                            > humans we can learn from those younger than us? To see a group of
                            > students using scrum in their approach to developing software would
                            > be an inspiration for those professionals that are interested in the
                            > philosophy of scrum. There would definitely be a lack of egos and
                            > intimidation and I assure you the students would offer a more
                            > welcoming approach to an incredible process such as scrum. The
                            > bottom line is all learn from each other ever day, students can
                            > teach too!
                            I believe you, and I would suspect most people on this list also believe
                            you.

                            But, think of who the target audience is: well-entrenched IT professionals
                            who are used to "the status quo," where new graduates learn about "how it
                            works" from the seasoned professionals.

                            It's not us, the people on this list, that you have to convince - it's the
                            old-school, entrenched people, who are not as likely going to listen to
                            students.

                            --
                            Jim Hyslop
                            Senior Software Designer
                            Leitch Technology International Inc. (http://www.leitch.com)
                            Columnist, C/C++ Users Journal (http://www.cuj.com/experts)



                            To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
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                          • Ron Harrow
                            ... to ... Lawyers teach lawyers to become lawyers. They also make good money doing this, so it is a sound business model. When a lawyer goes to work on Wall
                            Message 13 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Michael Spayd
                              <michael.spayd@g...> wrote:
                              > I will add my voice to this chorus. I don't believe you are likely
                              to
                              > convince normal business people. Only if you were able to create a
                              > tipping point kind of situation.

                              Lawyers teach lawyers to become lawyers. They also make good money
                              doing this, so it is a sound business model. When a lawyer goes to
                              work on Wall Street, he/she starts at an associate. They get paid
                              well, but still only about 1/3 of their billing rate - guess who
                              gets the rest. Any consultant who has a good business and who
                              practices Scrum, can take on an intern providing that the consultant
                              has more business then he/she can handle alone. The intern gets the
                              experience, the consultant gets most of the money and everyone is
                              happy.
                            • Pam Rostal
                              ... professionals ... about how it ... I was actually thinking about this from the perspective of the Scrum Gathering being held next month, which is about
                              Message 14 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                                > Jim Hyslop said:

                                > But, think of who the target audience is: well-entrenched IT
                                professionals
                                > who are used to "the status quo," where new graduates learn
                                about "how it
                                > works" from the seasoned professionals.

                                I was actually thinking about this from the perspective of the Scrum
                                Gathering being held next month, which is about giving people who
                                haven't done Scrum before an idea of what it "feels" like before
                                they just go out and do the practices by rote. Therefore, this
                                offering would be targeted more at people who had already committed
                                the time to becoming certified, but had never done it before and
                                wanted to test their skills as a scrum master. They might become
                                the consultant force alluded to by Ron, or they might be internal
                                people at companies who have decided to take the plunge.

                                Either way, our students would be doing exactly what their team
                                members would be doing -- reacting as humans to the direction they
                                are being given. I was thinking that their reactions might help the
                                scrum master either modify their behavior or justify their
                                behavior.

                                This direction is not our primary purpose -- our purpose is to
                                graduate students who understand the value of a liberal arts
                                education, who know how to relate to people, and who have worked in
                                teams with a broad selection of tools and techniques to deliver
                                software. As has been mentioned, this corresponds to a disruptive
                                technology so we are not going after the American Express Companies
                                of the world, but after rural projects that don't have a lot of
                                money. An added benefit of this approach is that we don't have to
                                deal with a lot of defensive behavior on the part of the customer
                                since they haven't experienced years of being mistreated by IT
                                professionals. We will have the opportunity to develop a customer
                                base that understands the fact that IT exists to serve them.

                                Pam

                                P.S. I've been called Pollyanna before, but it seems like we're
                                making progress in this direction.
                              • Pam Rostal
                                ... consultant ... the ... Sorry for derailing your discussion -- as always, there are multiple ways to achieve a single objective. I think your consultant
                                Message 15 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Harrow" <rharrow@c...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > Any consultant who has a good business and who
                                  > practices Scrum, can take on an intern providing that the
                                  consultant
                                  > has more business then he/she can handle alone. The intern gets
                                  the
                                  > experience, the consultant gets most of the money and everyone is
                                  > happy.

                                  Sorry for derailing your discussion -- as always, there are multiple
                                  ways to achieve a single objective. I think your consultant
                                  internship is a valid approach. Once we see if our approach works,
                                  we'll hopefully have the luxury of comparing successes.

                                  Pam
                                • Steven Gordon
                                  I believe the proposal was more equivalent to having the associate lawyer do his/her internship while still located at their law school taking classes. Do you
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                                    I believe the proposal was more equivalent to having the associate lawyer do
                                    his/her internship while still located at their law school taking classes.  Do you
                                    know any law firms who are willing to consider paying for that kind of intership?
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Ron Harrow [mailto:rharrow@...]
                                    Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 1:36 PM
                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: The Need For an Intern Program

                                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Michael Spayd
                                    <michael.spayd@g...> wrote:
                                    > I will add my voice to this chorus. I don't believe you are likely
                                    to
                                    > convince normal business people. Only if you were able to create a
                                    > tipping point kind of situation.

                                    Lawyers teach lawyers to become lawyers.  They also make good money
                                    doing this, so it is a sound business model.  When a lawyer goes to
                                    work on Wall Street, he/she starts at an associate.  They get paid
                                    well, but still only about 1/3 of their billing rate - guess who
                                    gets the rest.  Any consultant who has a good business and who
                                    practices Scrum, can take on an intern providing that the consultant
                                    has more business then he/she can handle alone.  The intern gets the
                                    experience, the consultant gets most of the money and everyone is
                                    happy.

                                  • Ron Harrow
                                    ... lawyer do ... classes. Do you ... kind of intership? ... Yes, Steve, most of the Wall Street firms hire students over the summer between classes to work
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Sep 25, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                      <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                      > I believe the proposal was more equivalent to having the associate
                                      lawyer do
                                      > his/her internship while still located at their law school taking
                                      classes. Do you
                                      > know any law firms who are willing to consider paying for that
                                      kind of intership?
                                      >

                                      Yes, Steve, most of the Wall Street firms hire students over the
                                      summer between classes to work as clerks. They get paid good
                                      salaries too. It gives both the law firms and the students a chance
                                      to check each other out.

                                      However, my proposal was definitely more along the lines of a post
                                      graduate program. I have in mind people who have been in the
                                      business for a while and know how to manage a software project.
                                      They just happen to be new to Scrum.

                                      Ron
                                    • Dion Stewart
                                      In my experience (in Minneapolis, MN, USA) clients are no longer willing to support this model. Clients are sick of consulting firms pulling up the bus and
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Sep 25, 2004
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                                        In my experience (in Minneapolis, MN, USA) clients are no longer
                                        willing to support this model. Clients are sick of consulting firms
                                        "pulling up the bus" and unloading junior people on a project while
                                        billing the client "standard" rates for the junior people.

                                        Clients are more prone to ask to see resumes for each individual and
                                        negotiate a specific rate for each consultant or reject the junior
                                        people completely.

                                        The intern program is a good idea in general. However, I'm not sure it
                                        will work if the idea is for the mentoring consultant to pocket a bunch
                                        of the money the client is being billed for the intern.

                                        Dion



                                        On Friday, September 24, 2004, at 03:36 PM, Ron Harrow wrote:

                                        > Any consultant who has a good business and who
                                        > practices Scrum, can take on an intern providing that the consultant
                                        > has more business then he/she can handle alone. The intern gets the
                                        > experience, the consultant gets most of the money and everyone is
                                        > happy.
                                      • Michael Spayd
                                        No one asked, but here is my two cents on the overall thread. To be candid, I have personally found this topic mildly interesting, but with a few forays into
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Sep 25, 2004
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                                          No one asked, but here is my two cents on the overall thread.

                                          To be candid, I have personally found this topic mildly interesting,
                                          but with a few forays into provocative and even HIGHLY interesting.
                                          Unfortunately, at this point I am utterly confused what we are even
                                          talking about :-(.

                                          It seems there were several false assumptions about this intern
                                          program that have partially been clarified, but become confusing again
                                          (for me) as I hear the echo of some new comments.

                                          I am wondering if either:

                                          a) we should re-clarify the original internship program intent, along
                                          with possibly recording the other options that have been mentioned,
                                          implicitly or explicitly, along the way. Kind of summarize and start
                                          over. This could be very useful.

                                          or

                                          b) perhaps we have reached the limits of the conversation's usefulness
                                          and should end.

                                          I myself vote for a). I think there is something really useful
                                          emerging here, but it is in the mists for me, and I think others.
                                          Unfortunately, I am not in a position to get this started, or I would
                                          do so and quit yapping.

                                          If the list decides on b) (either implicitly or explicitly), I will
                                          simply pay attention elsewhere for a while.

                                          I'm sure you all will let me know what you think :-)

                                          --
                                          Michael K. Spayd
                                          COGILITY, llc
                                          "Business Mind, Social Heart"
                                          michael.spayd@...



                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Dion Stewart <dion.stewart@...>
                                          Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:39:09 -0500
                                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: The Need For an Intern Program
                                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com

                                          In my experience (in Minneapolis, MN, USA) clients are no longer
                                          willing to support this model. Clients are sick of consulting firms
                                          "pulling up the bus" and unloading junior people on a project while
                                          billing the client "standard" rates for the junior people.

                                          Clients are more prone to ask to see resumes for each individual and
                                          negotiate a specific rate for each consultant or reject the junior
                                          people completely.

                                          The intern program is a good idea in general. However, I'm not sure it
                                          will work if the idea is for the mentoring consultant to pocket a bunch
                                          of the money the client is being billed for the intern.

                                          Dion



                                          On Friday, September 24, 2004, at 03:36 PM, Ron Harrow wrote:

                                          > Any consultant who has a good business and who
                                          > practices Scrum, can take on an intern providing that the consultant
                                          > has more business then he/she can handle alone. The intern gets the
                                          > experience, the consultant gets most of the money and everyone is
                                          > happy.
                                        • pmrostal@comcast.net
                                          ... I agree that the discussion has diverged from the original direction. I almost think the part I inadvertently kicked off needs to be on a different yahoo
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Sep 26, 2004
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                                            > Michael K. Spayd  said:

                                            > To be candid, I have personally found this topic mildly interesting,
                                            > but with a few forays into provocative and even HIGHLY interesting.
                                            > Unfortunately, at this point I am utterly confused what we are even
                                            > talking about :-(.
                                            >
                                            > It seems there were several false assumptions about this intern
                                            > program that have partially been clarified, but become confusing again
                                            > (for me) as I hear the echo of some new comments.

                                            I agree that the discussion has diverged from the original direction.  I almost think the part I inadvertently kicked off needs to be on a different yahoo group entirely -- one dedicated to software development education -- because it's no longer scrum-related.  To that end, there is a new Yahoo group called http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Software_Dev_Education.  Feel free to join.

                                            Ron's original thread probably still belongs here as well since he was proposing it as a way to disseminate scrum rather than as an approach to education in general.

                                            Sorry,

                                            Pam

                                          • Deb
                                            It also sounds like some of what s discussed on the SellingAgile list, which has been very active this summer. Yes, the word selling is, of course,
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Sep 26, 2004
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                                              It also sounds like some of what's discussed on the SellingAgile list,
                                              which has been very active this summer. Yes, the word "selling" is, of
                                              course, controversial but it's only a handle for the group :-)

                                              Selling seems to involve education, doesn't it? If only to make the
                                              buyer aware (educate him) on what *he* really wants/needs?

                                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, pmrostal@c... wrote:
                                              > > Michael K. Spayd said:
                                              > > To be candid, I have personally found this topic mildly interesting,
                                              > > but with a few forays into provocative and even HIGHLY interesting.
                                              > > Unfortunately, at this point I am utterly confused what we are even
                                              > > talking about :-(.
                                              > >
                                              > > It seems there were several false assumptions about this intern
                                              > > program that have partially been clarified, but become confusing
                                              again
                                              > > (for me) as I hear the echo of some new comments.
                                              >
                                              > I agree that the discussion has diverged from the original
                                              direction. I almost think the part I inadvertently kicked off needs
                                              to be on a different yahoo group entirely -- one dedicated to software
                                              development education -- because it's no longer scrum-related. To
                                              that end, there is a new Yahoo group called
                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Software_Dev_Education. Feel free to join.
                                              > Ron's original thread probably still belongs here as well since he
                                              was proposing it as a way to disseminate scrum rather than as an
                                              approach to education in general.
                                              > Sorry,
                                              > Pam
                                            • Mike Dwyer
                                              Dion: This is good to hear. I always hated the hidden costs that the kiddies brought with them, like nap time and designer cubbies for their blankies. 8^)
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Sep 29, 2004
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                                                Dion:
                                                This is good to hear. I always hated the hidden costs that the 'kiddies'
                                                brought with them, like nap time and designer cubbies for their blankies.
                                                8^)

                                                Michael F. Dwyer



                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Dion Stewart [mailto:dion.stewart@...]
                                                Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 3:39 PM
                                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: The Need For an Intern Program

                                                In my experience (in Minneapolis, MN, USA) clients are no longer
                                                willing to support this model. Clients are sick of consulting firms
                                                "pulling up the bus" and unloading junior people on a project while
                                                billing the client "standard" rates for the junior people.

                                                Clients are more prone to ask to see resumes for each individual and
                                                negotiate a specific rate for each consultant or reject the junior
                                                people completely.

                                                The intern program is a good idea in general. However, I'm not sure it
                                                will work if the idea is for the mentoring consultant to pocket a bunch
                                                of the money the client is being billed for the intern.

                                                Dion



                                                On Friday, September 24, 2004, at 03:36 PM, Ron Harrow wrote:

                                                > Any consultant who has a good business and who
                                                > practices Scrum, can take on an intern providing that the consultant
                                                > has more business then he/she can handle alone. The intern gets the
                                                > experience, the consultant gets most of the money and everyone is
                                                > happy.




                                                To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
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                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              • Vaibhaw
                                                Hello All, I have been following this tread for sometime now with a lot of interest waiting for something useful to come out of it. Let me introduce myself
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Sep 30, 2004
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                                                  Hello All,

                                                  I have been following this tread for sometime now with a lot of
                                                  interest waiting for something useful to come out of it. Let me
                                                  introduce myself first. I have just completed my undergrad in Business
                                                  Information System and during my college worked with a company as an
                                                  Intern for Software Testing. This is a small company doing offshore
                                                  development. The company wants to implement Agile and now I am working
                                                  full time to implement Scrum here.

                                                  But the basic problem has been the right kind of people who can give
                                                  first hand training for the same. So I sincerely think for guys like
                                                  us who are fresh in this field, Intern Programs to learn the skills
                                                  from some practicing person would be a gr8 benefit and in the process
                                                  if we do get paid 1/3rd the normal pay, it would just be an added benefit.

                                                  One more thing is that the Scrum Training has been concentrated in
                                                  America and Europe only and for guys like us who come from Nepal, a
                                                  small country in South Asia, getting first hand training with the
                                                  practisioners is next to impossible on the current cost.

                                                  --
                                                  Bob (Vaibhaw Poddar)
                                                  Scrum Master ( Not Certified Though :-( )
                                                  http://hither2forlorn.blogspot.com

                                                  :Blow you Mind:Smoke GunPowder:



                                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dwyer"
                                                  <mike.dwyer1@c...> wrote:
                                                  > Dion:
                                                  > This is good to hear. I always hated the hidden costs that the
                                                  'kiddies'
                                                  > brought with them, like nap time and designer cubbies for their
                                                  blankies.
                                                  > 8^)
                                                  >
                                                  > Michael F. Dwyer
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • Joseph Pelrine
                                                  ... I ll be teaching a CSM course in Singapore at the end of October. Would you be able to make it there? Feel free to contact me off-line for more details.
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Sep 30, 2004
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                                                    At 13:27 30.09.2004, you wrote:
                                                    >Hello All,
                                                    >
                                                    >I have been following this tread for sometime now with a lot of
                                                    >interest waiting for something useful to come out of it. Let me
                                                    >introduce myself first. I have just completed my undergrad in Business
                                                    >Information System and during my college worked with a company as an
                                                    >Intern for Software Testing. This is a small company doing offshore
                                                    >development. The company wants to implement Agile and now I am working
                                                    >full time to implement Scrum here.
                                                    >
                                                    >But the basic problem has been the right kind of people who can give
                                                    >first hand training for the same. So I sincerely think for guys like
                                                    >us who are fresh in this field, Intern Programs to learn the skills
                                                    >from some practicing person would be a gr8 benefit and in the process
                                                    >if we do get paid 1/3rd the normal pay, it would just be an added benefit.
                                                    >
                                                    >One more thing is that the Scrum Training has been concentrated in
                                                    >America and Europe only and for guys like us who come from Nepal, a
                                                    >small country in South Asia, getting first hand training with the
                                                    >practisioners is next to impossible on the current cost.
                                                    >
                                                    >--
                                                    >Bob (Vaibhaw Poddar)
                                                    >Scrum Master ( Not Certified Though :-( )

                                                    I'll be teaching a CSM course in Singapore at the end of October. Would you
                                                    be able to make it there? Feel free to contact me off-line for more details.

                                                    Cheers

                                                    --
                                                    Joseph Pelrine [ | ]
                                                    MetaProg GmbH
                                                    Email: jpelrine@...
                                                    Web: http://www.metaprog.com

                                                    You don't become enormously successful without encountering some really
                                                    interesting problems.
                                                    - Mark Victor Hansen
                                                  • mike.dwyer1@comcast.net
                                                    This is great to hear, Vaibhaw. You have made the first step in moving to Scrum. You are committed, not involved in what you are doing. There are only a few
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Sep 30, 2004
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                                                      This is great to hear, Vaibhaw.  You have made the first step in moving to Scrum.  You are committed, not involved in what you are doing.
                                                       
                                                      There are only a few other things to learn.
                                                      1.  The amount of work you will be asked to do will always be more than the resources you have. The customer or product owner always has the obligation to decide what is worked on next.  Your team has the obligation not to commit to more than you can do in a Sprint.
                                                      2.  You will always make mistakes.  Learn from them and remember that if you are always successful at hitting the target that you are standing to close to improve your aim.
                                                      3. Things change. If they don't change then you are not making a difference.  Go find something else to do.
                                                      Finally, Scrum and Agile are part of a dynamic, expanding, world.  You can do only one thing wrong in this world and that is not to try something out.
                                                      --
                                                      Mike Dwyer

                                                      "I Keep six faithful serving-men
                                                      Who serve me well and true:
                                                      Their names are What and Where and When
                                                      And How and Why and Who." - Kipling
                                                       
                                                      -------------- Original message --------------

                                                      > Hello All,
                                                      >
                                                      > I have been following this tread for sometime now with a lot of
                                                      > interest waiting for something useful to come out of it. Let me
                                                      > introduce myself first. I have just completed my undergrad in Business
                                                      > Information System and during my college worked with a company as an
                                                      > Intern for Software Testing. This is a small company doing offshore
                                                      > development. The company wants to implement Agile and now I am working
                                                      > full time to implement Scrum here.
                                                      >
                                                      > But the basic problem has been the right kind of people who can give
                                                      > first hand training for the same. So I sincerely think for guys like
                                                      > us who are fresh in this field, Intern Programs to learn the skills
                                                      > from some practicing person would be a gr8 benefit and in the process
                                                      > if we do get paid 1/3rd the normal pay, it would just be an added benefit.
                                                      >
                                                      > One more thing is that the Scrum Training has been concentrated in
                                                      > America and Europe only and for guys like us who come from Nepal, a
                                                      > small country in South Asia, getting first hand training with the
                                                      > practisioners is next to impossible on the current cost.
                                                      >
                                                      > --
                                                      > Bob (Vaibhaw Poddar)
                                                      > Scrum Master ( Not Certified Though :-( )
                                                      > http://hither2forlorn.blogspot.com
                                                      >
                                                      > :Blow you Mind:Smoke GunPowder:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dwyer"
                                                      > wrote:
                                                      > > Dion:
                                                      > > This is good to hear. I always hated the hidden costs that the
                                                      > 'kiddies'
                                                      > > brought with them, like nap time and designer cubbies for their
                                                      > blankies.
                                                      > > 8^)
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Michael F. Dwyer
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
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