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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Is there a break between sprints ?

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  • Steve Ropa
    You make some excellent points here, that we so often miss. I alluded to it with the comment about arguing with their happiness. The fact that they are
    Message 1 of 41 , Jan 28, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      You make some excellent points here, that we so often miss.  I alluded to it with the comment about arguing with their happiness.  The fact that they are better off than they were is a huge thing.  Better they should not worry about whether they are "doing it right" but that they are doing well.  Now, as they get more comfortable, they can decide what part of the pie they want to tackle next.  Maybe it will be automated tests, or maybe it will be exploring their iteration scheduling ideas.  I think I would recommend Ilja's plan of calling it a 5th week with some slack, just to remove a little bit of the uncertainty around fixed lengths also.
       
      Steve

      From: gregc
      Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 10:59 AM
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Is there a break between sprints ?

       

      To Steve who asks is this masking another symptom and Itja is this really just a five week sprint, these are good questions.

      I don't know exactly how often the 5th week is used for overflow, but he said "occasionally" , so I'll take that to mean less than half the sprints. I think the extra week lets them switch from development focus to deployment focus. Initially I reacted strongly to this idea of disrespecting the time box. But they do deploy after each iteration, and I figure if they value getting all the scope over hitting the exact time (since it is 5 weeks to the next potential release, maybe this is a valid view point. Deep down, my hunch is they still have room to take a good step forward and this current state is an important way-point on their journey. But their world is much better than it was, and they are meeting their business objectives.

      I think Itja has the right frame of reference, "Why not just call it a 5 week sprint?" Then they can figure out if there is any benefit to decreasing the sprint time.

      Anyway, I was not trying to suggest this is right or wrong, only to provide an example of one company that in their view is taking a break between sprints and happy with the results.

      -greg

      --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Ilja Preuß <iljapreuss@ ...> wrote:

      >
      > How is that
      different from a five week sprint with some slack in the planning?
      >
      > Curious, Ilja
      >
      > 2010/1/27 gregc
      <greg@...>:
      > > James MOorehead of Support.com presented at SVPMA
      (svpma.org) on November on distributed scrum and shared that they have a one week break between sprints.
      > >
      > > "The company experimented
      with different iteration (or Sprint) lengths and finally settled on four weeks with one week in between for deployment and planning. The buffer week also allows the team to
      > > occasionally add another day or two to a Sprint
      to allow work to be completed rather than having it roll over to the next Sprint."
      > >
      > > Whether this is considered right or wrong or
      pure on unpure, it works very well for them and solved many of the business challenges they had prior to implementing Scrum.
      > >
      > > You
      can read the entire event write-up that the excerpt above comes from in the association newsletter at http://www.svpma. org/nl/SVPMA- JANFEB2010- Newsletter. pdf if you want additional context. (disclosure: I was the event writer that month which I remember this so clearly.)
      > >
      > >
      > >
      -greg
      > > www.280group. com
      > >
      > > --- In
      title="mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com">scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Michael Vizdos <mvizdos@> wrote:
      > >>
      > >> How
      about this easy to remember mantra:
      > >>
      > >> "Keep it
      Transparent"
      > >>
      > >> Now the challenge is... to who
      (or is it whom?)?
      > >>
      > >> Thank you,
      > >>
      > >> - Mike Vizdos
      > >>
      > >>
      Contact Information
      > >>
      > >>      
         Phone:  (262) MVIZDOS / (262) 684-9367
      > >>  
             Web:      www.implementingscr um.com
      > >>      
                       www.michaelvizdos. com
      > >>        
       AOL IM:  MikeV Work
      > >>        
       Twitter:   www.twitter. com/mvizdos
      > >>  
             Skype:    mvizdos
      > >>
      > >> PS: Come to one of my workshops.  Visit
      michaelvizdos. com/enroll.
      > >>
      > >> PPS: Visit
      implementingscrum. com/subscribe.  Receive 2 FREE videos.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> On
      Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:45 PM, JackM <jack@> wrote:
      > >>
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      Something to consider that is somewhat relevant to this discussion around
      > >> > slack time - Google's story
      > >> >
      > >> > Here's an excerpt from a really cool blog
      post
      > >> >
      > >> > Fortunately for Gmail, they've
      recently found a rather clever solution that
      > >> > enables the
      thousands of Google engineers to add new ui features: Gmail
      > >> > Labs. This is also where Google's "20% time" comes in -- if you
      want
      > >> > innovation, it's critical that people are able to
      work on ideas that are
      > >> > unapproved and generally thought to
      be stupid. The real value of "20%" is
      > >> > not the time, but
      rather the "license" it gives to work on things that
      > >> >
      "aren't important". (perhaps I should do a post on "20% time" at some
      > >> > point...)
      > >> >
      > >> > The full
      post can be found here
      > >> >
      > >> >
      href="http://ow.ly/VtGJ">http://ow.ly/ VtGJ
      > >> >
      > >> > Enjoy
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> > Jack
      > >> >
      www.agilebuddy. com
      > >> > blog.agilebuddy. com
      > >> > twitter.com/ agilebuddy
      > >> >
      > >> > --- In
      href="mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com">scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com<scrumdevelopment% 40yahoogroups. com>,
      > >> > "JackM" <jack@> wrote:
      > >> > >
      > >> > > The important thing is maintaining Rythm.
      > >> > >
      > >> > > Also I will add, that it's important to
      plan to capacity. Mary and Tom
      > >> > Popendiek talk about this
      extensively in their lean book. Otherwise your
      > >> > development
      team starts thrashing. So maybe a little slack time?
      > >> > >
      > >> > > Jack
      > >> > >
      www.agilebuddy. com
      > >> > >
      blog.agilebudy. com
      > >> > >
      twitter.com/ agilebuddy
      > >> > >
      > >> > >
      > >> > > --- In
      href="mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com">scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com<scrumdevelopment% 40yahoogroups. com>,
      > >> > "Steve Ropa" <theropas@> wrote:
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > > I might have missed this, but why should we
      strive to have no break
      > >> > between sprints? I personally like
      the idea of a week of slack between
      > >> > sprints. Not every
      organization can afford to do that, but if you can, it is
      > >> >
      a great chance to recharge and get off the treadmill. Even a day or two
      > >> > between sprints, then a week or two between releases can be
      nice.
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > > From: JackM
      > >> > > > Sent:
      Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:04 PM
      > >> > > > To:
      href="mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com">scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com<scrumdevelopment% 40yahoogroups. com>
      > >> > > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Is there a break between
      sprints ?
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > > It's
      already been said but just to add support for what's already been
      > >> > said ...
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > > You should strive to have no breaks between sprints.
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > > Day 1 is the Sprint
      Planning
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > > Day
      Last is Demo and RetroSpective. Some of the learning from the demo
      > >> > and retrospective will feed the Planning session the next working
      day.
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > > Hope this
      helps
      > >> > > > Jack
      > >> > > >
      www.agilebuddy. com
      > >> > > >
      blog.agilebuddy. com
      > >> > > >
      twitter.com/ agilebuddy
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > > --- In
      href="mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com">scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com<scrumdevelopment% 40yahoogroups. com>,
      > >> > "wtheronjones" <wesj@> wrote:
      > >> > > > >
      > >> > > > > A quick Q for the group:
      > >> > > > >
      > >> > > > > Is there a
      break between sprints? Let's say you're on a 2 week
      > >> >
      iteration cycle.. is the sprint review, retrospective & planning meeting all
      > >> > done on a day in between sprints, or does day one of
      sprint include the
      > >> > review, retrospective & planning
      meeting?
      > >> > > > > For the purposes of project
      planning, what's a popular choice out
      > >> > there?
      > >> > > > > Thanks
      > >> > > > >
      > >> > > >
      > >> > >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      ------------ --------- --------- ------
      > >
      > > To
      Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@ ...
      > > To
      Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment- unsubscribe@ ...! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >

    • Steve Ropa
      You make some excellent points here, that we so often miss. I alluded to it with the comment about arguing with their happiness. The fact that they are
      Message 41 of 41 , Jan 28, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        You make some excellent points here, that we so often miss.  I alluded to it with the comment about arguing with their happiness.  The fact that they are better off than they were is a huge thing.  Better they should not worry about whether they are "doing it right" but that they are doing well.  Now, as they get more comfortable, they can decide what part of the pie they want to tackle next.  Maybe it will be automated tests, or maybe it will be exploring their iteration scheduling ideas.  I think I would recommend Ilja's plan of calling it a 5th week with some slack, just to remove a little bit of the uncertainty around fixed lengths also.
         
        Steve

        From: gregc
        Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 10:59 AM
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Is there a break between sprints ?

         

        To Steve who asks is this masking another symptom and Itja is this really just a five week sprint, these are good questions.

        I don't know exactly how often the 5th week is used for overflow, but he said "occasionally" , so I'll take that to mean less than half the sprints. I think the extra week lets them switch from development focus to deployment focus. Initially I reacted strongly to this idea of disrespecting the time box. But they do deploy after each iteration, and I figure if they value getting all the scope over hitting the exact time (since it is 5 weeks to the next potential release, maybe this is a valid view point. Deep down, my hunch is they still have room to take a good step forward and this current state is an important way-point on their journey. But their world is much better than it was, and they are meeting their business objectives.

        I think Itja has the right frame of reference, "Why not just call it a 5 week sprint?" Then they can figure out if there is any benefit to decreasing the sprint time.

        Anyway, I was not trying to suggest this is right or wrong, only to provide an example of one company that in their view is taking a break between sprints and happy with the results.

        -greg

        --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Ilja Preuß <iljapreuss@ ...> wrote:

        >
        > How is that
        different from a five week sprint with some slack in the planning?
        >
        > Curious, Ilja
        >
        > 2010/1/27 gregc
        <greg@...>:
        > > James MOorehead of Support.com presented at SVPMA
        (svpma.org) on November on distributed scrum and shared that they have a one week break between sprints.
        > >
        > > "The company experimented
        with different iteration (or Sprint) lengths and finally settled on four weeks with one week in between for deployment and planning. The buffer week also allows the team to
        > > occasionally add another day or two to a Sprint
        to allow work to be completed rather than having it roll over to the next Sprint."
        > >
        > > Whether this is considered right or wrong or
        pure on unpure, it works very well for them and solved many of the business challenges they had prior to implementing Scrum.
        > >
        > > You
        can read the entire event write-up that the excerpt above comes from in the association newsletter at http://www.svpma. org/nl/SVPMA- JANFEB2010- Newsletter. pdf if you want additional context. (disclosure: I was the event writer that month which I remember this so clearly.)
        > >
        > >
        > >
        -greg
        > > www.280group. com
        > >
        > > --- In
        title="mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com">scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, Michael Vizdos <mvizdos@> wrote:
        > >>
        > >> How
        about this easy to remember mantra:
        > >>
        > >> "Keep it
        Transparent"
        > >>
        > >> Now the challenge is... to who
        (or is it whom?)?
        > >>
        > >> Thank you,
        > >>
        > >> - Mike Vizdos
        > >>
        > >>
        Contact Information
        > >>
        > >>      
           Phone:  (262) MVIZDOS / (262) 684-9367
        > >>  
               Web:      www.implementingscr um.com
        > >>      
                         www.michaelvizdos. com
        > >>        
         AOL IM:  MikeV Work
        > >>        
         Twitter:   www.twitter. com/mvizdos
        > >>  
               Skype:    mvizdos
        > >>
        > >> PS: Come to one of my workshops.  Visit
        michaelvizdos. com/enroll.
        > >>
        > >> PPS: Visit
        implementingscrum. com/subscribe.  Receive 2 FREE videos.
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> On
        Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:45 PM, JackM <jack@> wrote:
        > >>
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        Something to consider that is somewhat relevant to this discussion around
        > >> > slack time - Google's story
        > >> >
        > >> > Here's an excerpt from a really cool blog
        post
        > >> >
        > >> > Fortunately for Gmail, they've
        recently found a rather clever solution that
        > >> > enables the
        thousands of Google engineers to add new ui features: Gmail
        > >> > Labs. This is also where Google's "20% time" comes in -- if you
        want
        > >> > innovation, it's critical that people are able to
        work on ideas that are
        > >> > unapproved and generally thought to
        be stupid. The real value of "20%" is
        > >> > not the time, but
        rather the "license" it gives to work on things that
        > >> >
        "aren't important". (perhaps I should do a post on "20% time" at some
        > >> > point...)
        > >> >
        > >> > The full
        post can be found here
        > >> >
        > >> >
        href="http://ow.ly/VtGJ">http://ow.ly/ VtGJ
        > >> >
        > >> > Enjoy
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> > Jack
        > >> >
        www.agilebuddy. com
        > >> > blog.agilebuddy. com
        > >> > twitter.com/ agilebuddy
        > >> >
        > >> > --- In
        href="mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com">scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com<scrumdevelopment% 40yahoogroups. com>,
        > >> > "JackM" <jack@> wrote:
        > >> > >
        > >> > > The important thing is maintaining Rythm.
        > >> > >
        > >> > > Also I will add, that it's important to
        plan to capacity. Mary and Tom
        > >> > Popendiek talk about this
        extensively in their lean book. Otherwise your
        > >> > development
        team starts thrashing. So maybe a little slack time?
        > >> > >
        > >> > > Jack
        > >> > >
        www.agilebuddy. com
        > >> > >
        blog.agilebudy. com
        > >> > >
        twitter.com/ agilebuddy
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >> > > --- In
        href="mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com">scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com<scrumdevelopment% 40yahoogroups. com>,
        > >> > "Steve Ropa" <theropas@> wrote:
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > I might have missed this, but why should we
        strive to have no break
        > >> > between sprints? I personally like
        the idea of a week of slack between
        > >> > sprints. Not every
        organization can afford to do that, but if you can, it is
        > >> >
        a great chance to recharge and get off the treadmill. Even a day or two
        > >> > between sprints, then a week or two between releases can be
        nice.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > From: JackM
        > >> > > > Sent:
        Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:04 PM
        > >> > > > To:
        href="mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com">scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com<scrumdevelopment% 40yahoogroups. com>
        > >> > > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Is there a break between
        sprints ?
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > It's
        already been said but just to add support for what's already been
        > >> > said ...
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > You should strive to have no breaks between sprints.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > Day 1 is the Sprint
        Planning
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > Day
        Last is Demo and RetroSpective. Some of the learning from the demo
        > >> > and retrospective will feed the Planning session the next working
        day.
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > Hope this
        helps
        > >> > > > Jack
        > >> > > >
        www.agilebuddy. com
        > >> > > >
        blog.agilebuddy. com
        > >> > > >
        twitter.com/ agilebuddy
        > >> > > >
        > >> > > > --- In
        href="mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com">scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com<scrumdevelopment% 40yahoogroups. com>,
        > >> > "wtheronjones" <wesj@> wrote:
        > >> > > > >
        > >> > > > > A quick Q for the group:
        > >> > > > >
        > >> > > > > Is there a
        break between sprints? Let's say you're on a 2 week
        > >> >
        iteration cycle.. is the sprint review, retrospective & planning meeting all
        > >> > done on a day in between sprints, or does day one of
        sprint include the
        > >> > review, retrospective & planning
        meeting?
        > >> > > > > For the purposes of project
        planning, what's a popular choice out
        > >> > there?
        > >> > > > > Thanks
        > >> > > > >
        > >> > > >
        > >> > >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        ------------ --------- --------- ------
        > >
        > > To
        Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@ ...
        > > To
        Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment- unsubscribe@ ...! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >

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