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Re: [!! SPAM] Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: User Stories business value and GWT

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  • Dan Rawsthorne
    You re right. Only user stories have user value. Other kinds of stories have other kinds of value. This language allows us to talk about things that have other
    Message 1 of 209 , Jan 2, 2010
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      You're right. Only user stories have user value. Other kinds of stories
      have other kinds of value. This language allows us to talk about things
      that have other kinds of value, which is very cool, as well as allowing
      us to use this new thing, the requirement/activity thing (called a
      story) in our planning. We could call it an Item, I suppose, or a PBI,
      but neither one of those has the same "promise for a conversation" and
      all that stuff that comes along with a story. It's very nice to be able
      to piggyback on existing knowledge, especially when the generalization
      we're using is so obvious and natural.

      As for trying to get "story" to mean "user story" - it's a little late
      for that. Story has been used as the generalization for a long time. I
      first used it 10 years ago, and I'm not the only one. The logic seems
      pretty clear to people. The conversation usually starts off like this:
      "user stories are stories that have user value, and there are other
      kinds of stories, like analysis stories, infrastructure stories, and so
      on..." and then we're off to the races. I think that most people realize
      that if we wanted the word "story" to mean "user story", then why is the
      word "user" in there? Of course, in XP environments, where user stories
      are the only stories, it makes perfect linguistic sense that the word
      "user" would be dropped for brevity. So, maybe it would be reasonable to
      say that in an XP environment, the word "story" is shorthand for "user
      story", but then I'd say "but I'm doing scrum, and that shorthand isn't
      valid here, you'll have to be more specific..."

      Just another one of the many little things we like to fight about, isn't
      it? Part of the spice...

      Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
      Senior Coach, Danube Technologies
      dan@..., 425-269-8628



      Adam Sroka wrote:
      >
      > On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 11:29 PM, Dan Rawsthorne
      > <dan.rawsthorne@...
      > <mailto:dan.rawsthorne%40drdansplace.com>> wrote:
      > > Adam, the form is not the story, either. I've been using the term
      > > "analysis story" for over 10 years now, and actually got blessing from
      > > Kent Beck to do that many years ago.
      >
      > Kent won't ever tell you not to do anything. If it's working for you
      > it's a good thing. That's his style. Doesn't mean you get to change
      > the definition of "story" for the rest of us.
      >
      > The way I look at it, the term
      > > "User Story" means that it's a story that has User value. It could be in
      > > connextra form (as a...) or not. What makes a story a brilliant thing is
      > > that it is a request for something of value, is a promise for future
      > > conversations, and contains both the request, the effort to achieve it,
      > > and the def'n of done (as Ron puts it, card/conversation/confirmation).
      > > I think as long as we say "user story" when we mean "user story" then we
      > > should have no problems... but I don't like the term "technical story"
      > > either, as it isn't telling me anything...
      > >
      >
      > Don't think I said anything that contradicted any of that. In fact, my
      > first message on this thread was about the fact that I don't like the
      > "connextra form" as you called it, because it allows people to think
      > that things that don't have user value are stories since they can be
      > kludged into the form.
      >
      >
    • Steve Ropa
      Ok, so you were either spying on my teams, or this problem is WAY to prevalent. I ve been a manager of dev teams for a fairly long time now, and I have always
      Message 209 of 209 , Jan 15, 2010
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        Ok, so you were either spying on my teams, or this problem is WAY to
        prevalent. I've been a manager of dev teams for a fairly long time now, and
        I have always hated the phrase stretch goals. I ask my teams to set
        realistic goals that I can count on. I'll do everything I can to help them
        meet those goals. That was one of the reasons I got on the Agile bandwagon
        to begin with. As teams become more comfortable, their velocity sometimes
        does creep up a little. But more importantly, as they don't feel rushed to
        just fill someone's arbitrary view of how much should get done, they produce
        some really high quality stuff. They also feel more comfortable
        experimenting with new things, and applying the creative aspect of the job,
        not just the technical.
        --------------------------------------------------
        From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...>
        Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 8:34 AM
        To: <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: User Stories business
        value and GWT

        > Hello, Steve. On Friday, January 15, 2010, at 10:09:33 AM, you
        > wrote:
        >
        >> Sadly, what this group heard in that message was even more
        >> destructive. They were consistently putting out 35 points, almost
        >> like clockwork. They were consistently signing up for 40+ points,
        >> because the "powers that be" wanted to see this sense of urgency.
        >> This of course ended with a huge morale problem. "We never finish
        >> our sprint. We never hit our target velocity. We must suck". Then
        >> I go to the executive business review to explain "well they are
        >> extremely consistent with their velocity, which is supposed to be
        >> the goal. They don't hit the arbitrary signed up for velocity
        >> because they are being pressured to do more work, rather than
        >> maintain consistency."
        >
        > That just happened to Kate Oneal's team:
        >
        > Kate Oneal: Choosing the Stories
        >
        > After a failed iteration, the team regroups with a few new
        > stories.
        >
        > http://xprogramming.com/xpmag/kate-oneal-choosing-the-stories/
        >
        > A pertinent quote, bowdlerized for the sensitive ears here:
        >
        > Jim said, “Yes. Think how bad things would have been if we didn’t
        > keep the pressure on!”
        >
        > It seemed like the entire dev team snarled. Gil jumped up. “Damn
        > it, you just set us up to fail! We tell you what we can accomplish
        > and then you push us to do more. If we do the job right, we fail.
        > If we do the job wrong, we ship crap. Stretch goals, my
        > [deleted]!”
        >
        > Everyone kind of fell back. Gil looked around, then said, “Well,
        > sorry. But it’s crap. We can’t win. We can’t even tie.”
        >
        > Enjoy ...
        >
        > Ron Jeffries
        > www.XProgramming.com
        > www.xprogramming.com/blog
        > It is a bad plan that admits of no modifications. -- Publius Syrus (ca. 42
        > BCE)
        >
        >
        >
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