Re: Scrum v. PMBoK
- In all of this discussion, I have yet to hear whether the Agile
Community feels that SCRUM is a Project Management methodology. If
the community does, there is a mechanism within PMI to create an
extension to the PMBOK for new industries or methodologies. I
wouldn't call it a SCRUM extension, as calling it an Agile extension
would allow the inclusion of more agile methodologies. If this is
something we agree to doing, I'd be interested in helping put
The benefits of this would be that the plan-driven pundits would be
somewhat silenced with the creation of the PMBOK specifically for
Agile projects. We (the agile camp) would be able to overcome the
lack of a cost-management and detailed procurement management
sections by simply including the PMBOK's by reference.
Mike Van, PMP
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Hubert Smits
> Hi Ken,like
> I'm shading cells in the sprint backlog (for future tasks), looks
> a Gantt chart, similar results. Also provides some feedback on thethe Sprint
> planning process that a team went through once all the tasks have
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:22:04 -0400, Ken Schwaber
> <ken.schwaber@v...> wrote:
> > I've found that if you flip the product backlog on its side, use
> > Review/Planning as a milestone, and connect everything that itlooks like a
> > Gantt chart. This sometimes satisfies people familar withtraditional
> > reporting techniques, except we are reporting in requirementsrather than
> > tasks.wasn't trying
> > Ken
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David A Barrett [mailto:dave.barrett@l...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 11:59 AM
> > To: email@example.com
> > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum v. PMBoK
> > MikeVan,
> > I don't think the situation calls for a tirade, and I truly
> > to irk anyone.From PMBoK
> > >Now then, SCRUM is not a PM methodology.
> > Darned if I know what it is then. Sure feels like it to me.
> > section 1.3: "Project management is the application of knowledge,skills,
> > tools, and techniques to project activities to meet projectrequirements".
> > How you do that would presumably be a "PM Methodology".Pharm.
> > >Remember, PMBOK was designed for Construction PM's as well as
> > >PM"s and S/W development PM's.is, of
> > I was thinking about that after pressing <Send>. The discussion
> > course, about "Scrum v. PMBoK" in a software development context,so I
> > didn't think it needed a quick followup email to clarify that.time and
> > >With regard to the statement about GANTT charts and Burndown
> > >charts... Documented artifacts don't run projects, people do.
> > Are you saying that the type of artifacts that people take the
> > effort to produce, and the tools that they use to run theprojects don't
> > give insight into how they are trying to run the projects?completing
> > >Finally, PMBOK 1996 is a great document. However, we're
> > >the second revision since then. To argue against the PMBOK usinga
> > >version two versions old is akin to saying you should'nt use XPfacts,
> > >because '95 didn't work right. If you are going to argue the
> > >get them first.version.
> > Kevin was using the '95 version, I was referencing the 2000
> > Secondly, no one even implied that PMBoK didn't work. No one isdis'ing
> > PMBoK. PMBoK is a wonderful book, and everyone should own a copy.that from
> > The whole point of this, which seems to be getting missed, is
> > time to time people do put down the PMBoK and someone inevitablypoints out
> > that you CAN derive Scrum from the elements contained within thePMBoK.
> > They usually go on to point out that the PMBoK doesn't espouse aparticular
> > methodology and that Scrum follows PMI guidelines. My responseto that is
> > that while it is technically true, there's an implied waterfallmethodology
> > in the manner that the PMBoK is structured, in the way theelements are
> > presented and the examples used.same",
> > In my opinion, the whole "PMBoK and Scrum are really just the
> > argument is a red herring dreamed up to avoid scaring thetraditionalists
> > too much.in PMBoK is
> > The whole discussion started because I stated that the emphasis
> > on up front collection of requirements and scope definition,which is
> > fundamentally different from Scrum. I stand by this. All thebits and
> > pieces described in PMBoK fit together the nicest if you run yourprojects
> > in a waterfallish way. For instance, the closest thing to a WBSin Scrum
> > is the Product Backlog. No one treats a PB the same way you'duse a WBS.
> > So technically, the PB falls within the material covered in thePMBoK, but
> > .... who are we kidding?example in
> > From Hubert:
> > >> These three activities usually result in everyone's favorite
> > >> artifact of futility, the Gant chart (of which there is an
> > thethat they
> > >> PMBoK).
> > >
> > >Can you elaborate on this statement? I consider it an excellent
> > >communications tool.
> > I think most IT project managers experience with Gantt charts is
> > spend the entire duration of the project modifying them orexplaining why
> > the project isn't following it. Hence the "artifact offutility". One of
> > the principles of Scrum is that you cannot possible know all ofthe
> > requirements and priorities of a software development project atthe
> > beginning, and the very act of building the product will cause thepast a
> > requirements to change. The result, therefore, is that anything
> > certain point on your Gantt chart is pure fantasy. So what areyou trying
> > to communicate with it?restaurant
> > Of course, if you're building a house or a bridge, or opening a
> > or planning a wedding a Gantt chart may happen to be the perfecttool for
> > planning and communicating.Scrum.
> > As a practical matter, I can't see how to use a Gantt chart with
> > Really, you don't know what is going to happen past the end ofthe first
> > sprint, so there's no point pretending you can chart it. Withina sprint I
> > could see using a Gantt chart if the TEAM builds it or planstheir sprint
> > activities in such a way as to allow you make one. Usually, anindividual
> > sprint is small enough that you don't need to use a Gantt chartto organize
> > the activities, but I could see some use for it if the team waslarge
> > enough and the tasks interconnected enough to make it difficult toas
> > understand how to get everything done without one.
> > Simply as communication tool, I think the Burndown chart is just
> > effective and fits in with Scrum more naturally.unsubscribe@e...
> > Dave Barrett,
> > Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
> > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
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> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
- All of us interested in a PMI interface might find this worth reading.
It is a presentation done by
Koskela, Lauri & Howell, Greg at the
Proceedings of PMI Research Conference 2002 Ed. by Dennis P. Slevin, David I
Cleland, Jeffrey K. Pinto. Project Management Institute.
BTW MikeV. Does this help with your research? Do you have any other
articles from within the PMI archives that you could share on this topic?
Michael F. Dwyer
978 683 3439
From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 4:16 PM
Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum v. PMBoK
I'm not sure if this is still a relevant topic, but I read something
today that made me think of this thread.
If people are still pursuing the idea of creating a Scrum/Agile
extension to the PMBoK, there appears to be precident in the PMBoK
already for "adaptive" management methodologies: "Rolling Wave
Planning". I saw this Craig Larman's book "Agile & Iterative
Development: A Manager's Guide", pp. 253-258, where he references:
Githens, G. 1998. "Rolling Wave Project Planning", Proceedings on the
29th Annual Project Management Institute 1998 Seminars and Symposium.
Craig notes that it is often recommended in RFPs, etc., but is widely
misunderstood and disregarded in practice.
Anyway, disregard if this is old news, but it was eye-opening to me.
I didn't realize I was conforming and in-line with the PMBoK, some of
my customers will be happy about that :) BTW, I highly recommend
Craig's book, he takes a very "pragmatic" look at agile/iterative
dev, and true to his well-researched form, delivers an amazingly well
documented case for agile/iterative. Amazon: http://tinyurl.com/3hvtk
-- Victor Szalvay
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "xenomino" <xenomino@y...>
> In all of this discussion, I have yet to hear whether the Agileextension
> Community feels that SCRUM is a Project Management methodology. If
> the community does, there is a mechanism within PMI to create an
> extension to the PMBOK for new industries or methodologies. I
> wouldn't call it a SCRUM extension, as calling it an Agile
> would allow the inclusion of more agile methodologies. If this isTo Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
> something we agree to doing, I'd be interested in helping put
> The benefits of this would be that the plan-driven pundits would be
> somewhat silenced with the creation of the PMBOK specifically for
> Agile projects. We (the agile camp) would be able to overcome the
> lack of a cost-management and detailed procurement management
> sections by simply including the PMBOK's by reference.
> Mike Van, PMP
> --- In email@example.com, Hubert Smits
> <hubert.smits@g...> wrote:
> > Hi Ken,
> > I'm shading cells in the sprint backlog (for future tasks), looks
> > a Gantt chart, similar results. Also provides some feedback on the
> > planning process that a team went through once all the tasks have
> > completed.
> > --Hubert
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