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Re: Scrum v. PMBoK

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  • xenomino
    In all of this discussion, I have yet to hear whether the Agile Community feels that SCRUM is a Project Management methodology. If the community does, there
    Message 1 of 67 , Sep 1, 2004
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      In all of this discussion, I have yet to hear whether the Agile
      Community feels that SCRUM is a Project Management methodology. If
      the community does, there is a mechanism within PMI to create an
      extension to the PMBOK for new industries or methodologies. I
      wouldn't call it a SCRUM extension, as calling it an Agile extension
      would allow the inclusion of more agile methodologies. If this is
      something we agree to doing, I'd be interested in helping put
      together.

      The benefits of this would be that the plan-driven pundits would be
      somewhat silenced with the creation of the PMBOK specifically for
      Agile projects. We (the agile camp) would be able to overcome the
      lack of a cost-management and detailed procurement management
      sections by simply including the PMBOK's by reference.

      Mike Van, PMP

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
      <hubert.smits@g...> wrote:
      > Hi Ken,
      >
      > I'm shading cells in the sprint backlog (for future tasks), looks
      like
      > a Gantt chart, similar results. Also provides some feedback on the
      > planning process that a team went through once all the tasks have
      > completed.
      >
      > --Hubert
      >
      > On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:22:04 -0400, Ken Schwaber
      > <ken.schwaber@v...> wrote:
      > > I've found that if you flip the product backlog on its side, use
      the Sprint
      > > Review/Planning as a milestone, and connect everything that it
      looks like a
      > > Gantt chart. This sometimes satisfies people familar with
      traditional
      > > reporting techniques, except we are reporting in requirements
      rather than
      > > tasks.
      > > Ken
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: David A Barrett [mailto:dave.barrett@l...]
      > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 11:59 AM
      > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum v. PMBoK
      > >
      > > MikeVan,
      > >
      > > I don't think the situation calls for a tirade, and I truly
      wasn't trying
      > > to irk anyone.
      > >
      > > >Now then, SCRUM is not a PM methodology.
      > >
      > > Darned if I know what it is then. Sure feels like it to me.
      From PMBoK
      > > section 1.3: "Project management is the application of knowledge,
      skills,
      > > tools, and techniques to project activities to meet project
      requirements".
      > > How you do that would presumably be a "PM Methodology".
      > >
      > > >Remember, PMBOK was designed for Construction PM's as well as
      Pharm.
      > > >PM"s and S/W development PM's.
      > >
      > > I was thinking about that after pressing <Send>. The discussion
      is, of
      > > course, about "Scrum v. PMBoK" in a software development context,
      so I
      > > didn't think it needed a quick followup email to clarify that.
      > >
      > > >With regard to the statement about GANTT charts and Burndown
      > > >charts... Documented artifacts don't run projects, people do.
      > >
      > > Are you saying that the type of artifacts that people take the
      time and
      > > effort to produce, and the tools that they use to run the
      projects don't
      > > give insight into how they are trying to run the projects?
      > >
      > > >Finally, PMBOK 1996 is a great document. However, we're
      completing
      > > >the second revision since then. To argue against the PMBOK using
      a
      > > >version two versions old is akin to saying you should'nt use XP
      > > >because '95 didn't work right. If you are going to argue the
      facts,
      > > >get them first.
      > >
      > > Kevin was using the '95 version, I was referencing the 2000
      version.
      > > Secondly, no one even implied that PMBoK didn't work. No one is
      dis'ing
      > > PMBoK. PMBoK is a wonderful book, and everyone should own a copy.
      > >
      > > The whole point of this, which seems to be getting missed, is
      that from
      > > time to time people do put down the PMBoK and someone inevitably
      points out
      > > that you CAN derive Scrum from the elements contained within the
      PMBoK.
      > > They usually go on to point out that the PMBoK doesn't espouse a
      particular
      > > methodology and that Scrum follows PMI guidelines. My response
      to that is
      > > that while it is technically true, there's an implied waterfall
      methodology
      > > in the manner that the PMBoK is structured, in the way the
      elements are
      > > presented and the examples used.
      > >
      > > In my opinion, the whole "PMBoK and Scrum are really just the
      same",
      > > argument is a red herring dreamed up to avoid scaring the
      traditionalists
      > > too much.
      > >
      > > The whole discussion started because I stated that the emphasis
      in PMBoK is
      > > on up front collection of requirements and scope definition,
      which is
      > > fundamentally different from Scrum. I stand by this. All the
      bits and
      > > pieces described in PMBoK fit together the nicest if you run your
      projects
      > > in a waterfallish way. For instance, the closest thing to a WBS
      in Scrum
      > > is the Product Backlog. No one treats a PB the same way you'd
      use a WBS.
      > > So technically, the PB falls within the material covered in the
      PMBoK, but
      > > .... who are we kidding?
      > >
      > > From Hubert:
      > >
      > > >> These three activities usually result in everyone's favorite
      > > >> artifact of futility, the Gant chart (of which there is an
      example in
      > > the
      > > >> PMBoK).
      > > >
      > > >Can you elaborate on this statement? I consider it an excellent
      > > >communications tool.
      > >
      > > I think most IT project managers experience with Gantt charts is
      that they
      > > spend the entire duration of the project modifying them or
      explaining why
      > > the project isn't following it. Hence the "artifact of
      futility". One of
      > > the principles of Scrum is that you cannot possible know all of
      the
      > > requirements and priorities of a software development project at
      the
      > > beginning, and the very act of building the product will cause the
      > > requirements to change. The result, therefore, is that anything
      past a
      > > certain point on your Gantt chart is pure fantasy. So what are
      you trying
      > > to communicate with it?
      > >
      > > Of course, if you're building a house or a bridge, or opening a
      restaurant
      > > or planning a wedding a Gantt chart may happen to be the perfect
      tool for
      > > planning and communicating.
      > >
      > > As a practical matter, I can't see how to use a Gantt chart with
      Scrum.
      > > Really, you don't know what is going to happen past the end of
      the first
      > > sprint, so there's no point pretending you can chart it. Within
      a sprint I
      > > could see using a Gantt chart if the TEAM builds it or plans
      their sprint
      > > activities in such a way as to allow you make one. Usually, an
      individual
      > > sprint is small enough that you don't need to use a Gantt chart
      to organize
      > > the activities, but I could see some use for it if the team was
      large
      > > enough and the tasks interconnected enough to make it difficult to
      > > understand how to get everything done without one.
      > >
      > > Simply as communication tool, I think the Burndown chart is just
      as
      > > effective and fits in with Scrum more naturally.
      > >
      > > Dave Barrett,
      > > Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
      > >
      > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
      > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
      > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-
      unsubscribe@e...
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Hubert
      >
      > hubert.smits@g...
    • Mike Dwyer
      All of us interested in a PMI interface might find this worth reading. http://www.vtt.fi/rte/ce/yhteystiedot/laurisdocuments/obsoletetheory.pdf It is a
      Message 67 of 67 , Sep 6, 2004
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        All of us interested in a PMI interface might find this worth reading.
        http://www.vtt.fi/rte/ce/yhteystiedot/laurisdocuments/obsoletetheory.pdf

        It is a presentation done by
        Koskela, Lauri & Howell, Greg at the
        Proceedings of PMI Research Conference 2002 Ed. by Dennis P. Slevin, David I
        Cleland, Jeffrey K. Pinto. Project Management Institute.

        BTW MikeV. Does this help with your research? Do you have any other
        articles from within the PMI archives that you could share on this topic?


        Michael F. Dwyer

        Mike.Dwyer1@...
        978 683 3439


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Victor Szalvay [mailto:victor@...]
        Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 4:16 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum v. PMBoK

        I'm not sure if this is still a relevant topic, but I read something
        today that made me think of this thread.

        If people are still pursuing the idea of creating a Scrum/Agile
        extension to the PMBoK, there appears to be precident in the PMBoK
        already for "adaptive" management methodologies: "Rolling Wave
        Planning". I saw this Craig Larman's book "Agile & Iterative
        Development: A Manager's Guide", pp. 253-258, where he references:
        Githens, G. 1998. "Rolling Wave Project Planning", Proceedings on the
        29th Annual Project Management Institute 1998 Seminars and Symposium.

        Craig notes that it is often recommended in RFPs, etc., but is widely
        misunderstood and disregarded in practice.

        Anyway, disregard if this is old news, but it was eye-opening to me.
        I didn't realize I was conforming and in-line with the PMBoK, some of
        my customers will be happy about that :) BTW, I highly recommend
        Craig's book, he takes a very "pragmatic" look at agile/iterative
        dev, and true to his well-researched form, delivers an amazingly well
        documented case for agile/iterative. Amazon: http://tinyurl.com/3hvtk

        -- Victor Szalvay
        http://www.danube.com/

        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "xenomino" <xenomino@y...>
        wrote:
        > In all of this discussion, I have yet to hear whether the Agile
        > Community feels that SCRUM is a Project Management methodology. If
        > the community does, there is a mechanism within PMI to create an
        > extension to the PMBOK for new industries or methodologies. I
        > wouldn't call it a SCRUM extension, as calling it an Agile
        extension
        > would allow the inclusion of more agile methodologies. If this is
        > something we agree to doing, I'd be interested in helping put
        > together.
        >
        > The benefits of this would be that the plan-driven pundits would be
        > somewhat silenced with the creation of the PMBOK specifically for
        > Agile projects. We (the agile camp) would be able to overcome the
        > lack of a cost-management and detailed procurement management
        > sections by simply including the PMBOK's by reference.
        >
        > Mike Van, PMP
        >
        > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
        > <hubert.smits@g...> wrote:
        > > Hi Ken,
        > >
        > > I'm shading cells in the sprint backlog (for future tasks), looks
        > like
        > > a Gantt chart, similar results. Also provides some feedback on the
        > > planning process that a team went through once all the tasks have
        > > completed.
        > >
        > > --Hubert





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