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Agile Career path

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  • Aleksey Dmitriyev
    I apologize if this topic has been discussed before. I cannot find exactly what I am looking for. I am looking for Agile career path examples in a corporation.
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 23, 2009
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      I apologize if this topic has been discussed before. I cannot find exactly what I am looking for. I am looking for Agile career path examples in a corporation. I am NOT asking
      about certification CSM -> Practitioner -> Guru. Instead, I would like to know
      what would be next step for a Scrum Master, or Product owner, or anyone else in
      Scrum. I have asked the same questions in a local PHXSUG group and got several opinions:
      1) Scrum Master should help the team to be completely self-organized, so she is not needed, and can become a team member again.
      2) Some companies introduce Sr. Scrum Master role, but it's not clear what exactly it entails, and how it's different from Scrum Master
      3) Some companies that have multiple teams and locations promote one of the Scrum masters to be a coach for other scrum teams at each location.

      I am looking for other example, perhaps from big companies with traditional HR mindset.
    • Adam Sroka
      Why do people insist that career advancement involves changing roles? If you like what you are doing keep doing it and get better at it. If you
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 23, 2009
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        < rant >

        Why do people insist that "career advancement" involves changing
        roles? If you like what you are doing keep doing it and get better at
        it. If you don't like what you are doing do something else. DO NOT
        take people who are good at something and force them to do something
        else so that they can make more money. Unless it is actually your goal
        to build a culture of incompetence (Which appears to be the case at
        most corporations.)

        < / rant >

        Good scrummasters should be good scrummasters. If their team doesn't
        need them I know some teams that do. Bad scrummasters who don't want
        to be good scrummasters should do something else... not months/years
        from now, now. Same goes for POs, programmers, visual designers,
        pilots, doctors, janitors...

        The only exception is that some doers become good teachers (Some
        don't). Teaching/mentoring is a worthy thing to "switch" to with a
        couple caveats:

        1) Don't become a teacher/mentor/coach until you have achieved basic
        competence yourself (If you think you have ask around to make sure.)
        2) Good teachers/mentors/coaches continue to improve and keep up with
        the state of the art by also doing - on their own time if necessary.

        On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Aleksey Dmitriyev <alexeyd@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > I apologize if this topic has been discussed before. I cannot find exactly what I am looking for. I am looking for Agile career path examples in a corporation. I am NOT asking
        > about certification CSM -> Practitioner -> Guru. Instead, I would like to know
        > what would be next step for a Scrum Master, or Product owner, or anyone else in
        > Scrum. I have asked the same questions in a local PHXSUG group and got several opinions:
        > 1) Scrum Master should help the team to be completely self-organized, so she is not needed, and can become a team member again.
        > 2) Some companies introduce Sr. Scrum Master role, but it's not clear what exactly it entails, and how it's different from Scrum Master
        > 3) Some companies that have multiple teams and locations promote one of the Scrum masters to be a coach for other scrum teams at each location.
        >
        > I am looking for other example, perhaps from big companies with traditional HR mindset.
        >
        >
      • Amanda Abelove
        Because some career paths you picked when you were 20 turn out to be dead ends a few years later due to changing market conditions. Be the mammal, not the
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 23, 2009
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          Because some career paths you picked when you were 20 turn out to be dead ends a few years later due to changing market conditions. Be the mammal, not the dinosaur.

          Just saying.

          On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
          < rant >

          Why do people insist that "career advancement" involves changing
          roles? If you like what you are doing keep doing it and get better at
          it. If you don't like what you are doing do something else. DO NOT
          take people who are good at something and force them to do something
          else so that they can make more money. Unless it is actually your goal
          to build a culture of incompetence (Which appears to be the case at
          most corporations.)

          < / rant >


        • Adam Sroka
          Like I said, if you don t like what you are doing do something else. One reason to not like it is that no one will pay you to do it ;-) For example, I became a
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 23, 2009
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            Like I said, if you don't like what you are doing do something else.
            One reason to not like it is that no one will pay you to do it ;-) For
            example, I became a coach because there are more opportunities to help
            incompetent teams become competent than there are to be competent with
            a competent team (But by doing the former I still get a taste of the
            latter.)

            On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Amanda Abelove <amanda@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Because some career paths you picked when you were 20 turn out to be dead ends a few years later due to changing market conditions. Be the mammal, not the dinosaur.
            >
            > Just saying.
            >
            > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> < rant >
            >>
            >> Why do people insist that "career advancement" involves changing
            >> roles? If you like what you are doing keep doing it and get better at
            >> it. If you don't like what you are doing do something else. DO NOT
            >> take people who are good at something and force them to do something
            >> else so that they can make more money. Unless it is actually your goal
            >> to build a culture of incompetence (Which appears to be the case at
            >> most corporations.)
            >>
            >> < / rant >
            >>
            >
            >
          • Amanda Abelove
            LOL. In any case.... it is very hard to go from being a doer to being a coach... it is a total world view and internal cultural shift you have to make... Which
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 23, 2009
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              LOL.

              In any case.... it is very hard to go from being a doer to being a coach... it is a total world view and internal cultural shift you have to make... Which is why I am designing Scrum Club the way I am. Hopefully I'll get a one-step-at-a time doer-to-coach process that is repeatable.


              -Amanda

              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              310-237-6370
              Skype: amanda.abelove

              Scrum Club - A Scrum methodology user group
              @scrumclub, #scrumclub
              http://scrumclub.org

              Corporate Espionage - A tradable card game on entrepreneurship
              @corpespionage, #corpespionage
              http://masterofespionage.com
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


              On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
              Like I said, if you don't like what you are doing do something else.
              One reason to not like it is that no one will pay you to do it ;-) For
              example, I became a coach because there are more opportunities to help
              incompetent teams become competent than there are to be competent with
              a competent team (But by doing the former I still get a taste of the
              latter.)

              On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Amanda Abelove <amanda@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Because some career paths you picked when you were 20 turn out to be dead ends a few years later due to changing market conditions. Be the mammal, not the dinosaur.
              >
              > Just saying.
              >
              > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> < rant >
              >>
              >> Why do people insist that "career advancement" involves changing
              >> roles? If you like what you are doing keep doing it and get better at
              >> it. If you don't like what you are doing do something else. DO NOT
              >> take people who are good at something and force them to do something
              >> else so that they can make more money. Unless it is actually your goal
              >> to build a culture of incompetence (Which appears to be the case at
              >> most corporations.)
              >>
              >> < / rant >
              >>
              >
              >


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            • Adam Sroka
              Agile practitioners are mentors. It s a function of the way we work (collaboratively.) So, it isn t that hard for competent practitioners to become competent
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 23, 2009
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                Agile practitioners are mentors. It's a function of the way we work (collaboratively.) So, it isn't that hard for competent practitioners to become competent coaches. The problem is becoming competent - it takes dedication, passion, and constant deliberate practice over a period of years. There aren't any shortcuts that work (Although, starting with the right mindset saves a bit of time.)

                Contrary to popular belief most people won't become competent and will have to do something else. That is why it is so important that you don't take the people who do and turn them into "managers." Unfortunately, turning the incompetent ones into managers isn't really better.

                On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Amanda Abelove <amanda@...> wrote:
                 

                LOL.

                In any case.... it is very hard to go from being a doer to being a coach... it is a total world view and internal cultural shift you have to make... Which is why I am designing Scrum Club the way I am. Hopefully I'll get a one-step-at-a time doer-to-coach process that is repeatable.


                -Amanda

                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                310-237-6370
                Skype: amanda.abelove

                Scrum Club - A Scrum methodology user group
                @scrumclub, #scrumclub
                http://scrumclub.org

                Corporate Espionage - A tradable card game on entrepreneurship
                @corpespionage, #corpespionage
                http://masterofespionage.com
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                Like I said, if you don't like what you are doing do something else.
                One reason to not like it is that no one will pay you to do it ;-) For
                example, I became a coach because there are more opportunities to help
                incompetent teams become competent than there are to be competent with
                a competent team (But by doing the former I still get a taste of the
                latter.)

                On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Amanda Abelove <amanda@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Because some career paths you picked when you were 20 turn out to be dead ends a few years later due to changing market conditions. Be the mammal, not the dinosaur.
                >
                > Just saying.
                >
                > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> < rant >
                >>
                >> Why do people insist that "career advancement" involves changing
                >> roles? If you like what you are doing keep doing it and get better at
                >> it. If you don't like what you are doing do something else. DO NOT
                >> take people who are good at something and force them to do something
                >> else so that they can make more money. Unless it is actually your goal
                >> to build a culture of incompetence (Which appears to be the case at
                >> most corporations.)
                >>
                >> < / rant >
                >>
                >
                >


                ------------------------------------


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              • Amanda Abelove
                Right, but the ones that become coaches generally come from highly formalized and structured environments and have certain preconceptions about how
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 23, 2009
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                  Right, but the ones that become coaches generally come from highly formalized and structured environments and have certain preconceptions about how collaboration happens. Not everyone works that way.

                  I think we are going to see a lot of changes in workforce collaboration with the kids that are in high school right now and it is fun to work on what kind of program should be there for them when they are ready..

                  "Wayne, don't go where the puck is... Go where it is going to be."

                  and Wayne Gretzsky has a lot of assists... like three times the number of goals.

                  -Amanda

                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  310-237-6370
                  Skype: amanda.abelove

                  Scrum Club - A Scrum methodology user group
                  @scrumclub, #scrumclub
                  http://scrumclub.org

                  Corporate Espionage - A tradable card game on entrepreneurship
                  @corpespionage, #corpespionage
                  http://masterofespionage.com
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                  On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                   

                  Agile practitioners are mentors. It's a function of the way we work (collaboratively.) So, it isn't that hard for competent practitioners to become competent coaches. The problem is becoming competent - it takes dedication, passion, and constant deliberate practice over a period of years. There aren't any shortcuts that work (Although, starting with the right mindset saves a bit of time.)

                  Contrary to popular belief most people won't become competent and will have to do something else. That is why it is so important that you don't take the people who do and turn them into "managers." Unfortunately, turning the incompetent ones into managers isn't really better.


                  On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Amanda Abelove <amanda@...> wrote:
                   

                  LOL.

                  In any case.... it is very hard to go from being a doer to being a coach... it is a total world view and internal cultural shift you have to make... Which is why I am designing Scrum Club the way I am. Hopefully I'll get a one-step-at-a time doer-to-coach process that is repeatable.


                  -Amanda

                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  310-237-6370
                  Skype: amanda.abelove

                  Scrum Club - A Scrum methodology user group
                  @scrumclub, #scrumclub
                  http://scrumclub.org

                  Corporate Espionage - A tradable card game on entrepreneurship
                  @corpespionage, #corpespionage
                  http://masterofespionage.com
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                  On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                  Like I said, if you don't like what you are doing do something else.
                  One reason to not like it is that no one will pay you to do it ;-) For
                  example, I became a coach because there are more opportunities to help
                  incompetent teams become competent than there are to be competent with
                  a competent team (But by doing the former I still get a taste of the
                  latter.)

                  On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Amanda Abelove <amanda@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Because some career paths you picked when you were 20 turn out to be dead ends a few years later due to changing market conditions. Be the mammal, not the dinosaur.
                  >
                  > Just saying.
                  >
                  > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> < rant >
                  >>
                  >> Why do people insist that "career advancement" involves changing
                  >> roles? If you like what you are doing keep doing it and get better at
                  >> it. If you don't like what you are doing do something else. DO NOT
                  >> take people who are good at something and force them to do something
                  >> else so that they can make more money. Unless it is actually your goal
                  >> to build a culture of incompetence (Which appears to be the case at
                  >> most corporations.)
                  >>
                  >> < / rant >
                  >>
                  >
                  >


                  ------------------------------------


                  To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links

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                • Roy Morien
                  This has been a problem in IT since the beginning of (IT) time. The competent programmer is promoted to be an analyst, an may be a not very competent
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 23, 2009
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                  This has been a problem in IT since the beginning of (IT) time. The competent programmer is 'promoted' to be an analyst, an may be a not very competent analyst. The competent analyst is 'promoted' to be the usually incompetent manager. Peter's Principle applies well here ... "People are promoted to their level of incompetence, at which point they cannot be promoted further".
                   
                  Some IT companies, such as DEC, recognised thios problem and made career paths for programmers in parallel with career paths for managers etc.
                   
                  But, the IT world is different now ... old competencies are no longer relevant frequently ... career 'paths' have changed ... do we have many 'pure' programmers now? Certainly in agile methods the 'roles' seem to have merged somewhat to be 'developers' in a multi-skille team. Being a wunderkind FORTRAN programmer no longer seems to have the attraction that it might have had 25 years ago.
                   
                  Just out of interest, I have attached a conference paper that I wrote 17 years ago. Maybe you will find it interesting. I would be happy to receive any comments on its relevance today, and if the situation has changed radically or at all since 1994. I am thinking of republishing the paper with a 2009 update.
                   
                  Regards,
                  Roy Morien
                   

                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  From: amanda@...
                  Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:27:24 -0800
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Agile Career path

                   
                  Because some career paths you picked when you were 20 turn out to be dead ends a few years later due to changing market conditions. Be the mammal, not the dinosaur.

                  Just saying.

                  On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@gmail. com> wrote:
                  < rant >

                  Why do people insist that "career advancement" involves changing
                  roles? If you like what you are doing keep doing it and get better at
                  it. If you don't like what you are doing do something else. DO NOT
                  take people who are good at something and force them to do something
                  else so that they can make more money. Unless it is actually your goal
                  to build a culture of incompetence (Which appears to be the case at
                  most corporations. )

                  < / rant >





                  Head to the Daily Blob on Windows Live For more of what happens online
                • Aleksey Dmitriyev
                  What if we reverse your question and ask why the corporations insist on having different roles and even a hierarchy? What should an ideal or even utopian
                  Message 9 of 11 , Nov 24, 2009
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                    What if we reverse your question and ask why the corporations insist on having different roles and even a hierarchy? What should an ideal or even utopian organization look like? Practically, even the most agile companies like Rally software have roles, and even a hierarchy.

                    --Aleksey

                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > < rant >
                    >
                    > Why do people insist that "career advancement" involves changing
                    > roles? If you like what you are doing keep doing it and get better at
                    > it. If you don't like what you are doing do something else. DO NOT
                    > take people who are good at something and force them to do something
                    > else so that they can make more money. Unless it is actually your goal
                    > to build a culture of incompetence (Which appears to be the case at
                    > most corporations.)
                    >
                    > < / rant >
                    >
                    > Good scrummasters should be good scrummasters. If their team doesn't
                    > need them I know some teams that do. Bad scrummasters who don't want
                    > to be good scrummasters should do something else... not months/years
                    > from now, now. Same goes for POs, programmers, visual designers,
                    > pilots, doctors, janitors...
                    >
                    > The only exception is that some doers become good teachers (Some
                    > don't). Teaching/mentoring is a worthy thing to "switch" to with a
                    > couple caveats:
                    >
                    > 1) Don't become a teacher/mentor/coach until you have achieved basic
                    > competence yourself (If you think you have ask around to make sure.)
                    > 2) Good teachers/mentors/coaches continue to improve and keep up with
                    > the state of the art by also doing - on their own time if necessary.
                    >
                    > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Aleksey Dmitriyev <alexeyd@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I apologize if this topic has been discussed before. I cannot find exactly what I am looking for. I am looking for Agile career path examples in a corporation. I am NOT asking
                    > > about certification CSM -> Practitioner -> Guru. Instead, I would like to know
                    > > what would be next step for a Scrum Master, or Product owner, or anyone else in
                    > > Scrum. I have asked the same questions in a local PHXSUG group and got several opinions:
                    > > 1) Scrum Master should help the team to be completely self-organized, so she is not needed, and can become a team member again.
                    > > 2) Some companies introduce Sr. Scrum Master role, but it's not clear what exactly it entails, and how it's different from Scrum Master
                    > > 3) Some companies that have multiple teams and locations promote one of the Scrum masters to be a coach for other scrum teams at each location.
                    > >
                    > > I am looking for other example, perhaps from big companies with traditional HR mindset.
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Peter Stevens (calendar)
                    Hi Aleksey, A hierarchy is not the most effective organizational form, just the easiest to establish and maintain. We see forms of it in among animals. It s
                    Message 10 of 11 , Nov 26, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Aleksey,

                      A hierarchy is not the most effective organizational form, just the easiest to establish and maintain.  We see forms of it in among animals. It's been with humans for thousands of years. Think of the hierarchy of Armies, Nobility or modern corporations. Think dynamic stability. A hierarchy is a dynamically stable organizational form.

                      Agile can/should be higher performance, but is not dynamically stable. It needs active feedback, drive, vision and energy from the people driving the company to remain active and viable. Think spinning plates on stick. They'll stay up there, as long as someone keeps the plates rotating.

                      A side effect of heirachy is the concept of climbing the ladder. Agile does not define a hierarchal structure, so there is no career path.

                      An example of agile company, is Guidewire, the supplier of standard software for the insurance industry. They did Scrum from word go. Only the 5 Product Owners were stable. Every other role could rotate, and did every sprint. Interesting side effect: the people who worked there loved the place, and never left.

                      Cheers,

                      Peter



                      On 24.11.09 17:02, Aleksey Dmitriyev wrote:
                       

                      What if we reverse your question and ask why the corporations insist on having different roles and even a hierarchy? What should an ideal or even utopian organization look like? Practically, even the most agile companies like Rally software have roles, and even a hierarchy.

                      --Aleksey

                      -



                      -- 
                      Peter Stevens, CSM, CSPO, CSP
                      www.scrum-breakfast.com
                      tel: +41 44 586 6450 
                      
                    • Ted Young
                      I d like to correct Peter s out-of-date information. Guidewire may have been Scrum-like but as of Feb. 2007 when I joined, they were not Scrum, nor were they
                      Message 11 of 11 , Nov 26, 2009
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                        I'd like to correct Peter's out-of-date information. Guidewire may have been "Scrum-like" but as of Feb. 2007 when I joined, they were not Scrum, nor were they doing Scrum. They were doing some of the practices, but it was not Scrum. Also, as to be expected, Guidewire has had people leave (including very early employees), mainly because they've been doing it for many years and wanted a change.

                        It is very true that titles are not at all important to the folks that work at Guidewire -- there's no "ladder" to climb, just more challenging work and responsibility, if that's what you want.

                        ;ted
                        --
                        Dev Mgr and Agile Coach
                        BillingCenter Team, Guidewire Software

                        On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Peter Stevens (calendar) <peterstev@...> wrote:


                        Hi Aleksey,

                        A hierarchy is not the most effective organizational form, just the easiest to establish and maintain.  We see forms of it in among animals. It's been with humans for thousands of years. Think of the hierarchy of Armies, Nobility or modern corporations. Think dynamic stability. A hierarchy is a dynamically stable organizational form.

                        Agile can/should be higher performance, but is not dynamically stable. It needs active feedback, drive, vision and energy from the people driving the company to remain active and viable. Think spinning plates on stick. They'll stay up there, as long as someone keeps the plates rotating.

                        A side effect of heirachy is the concept of climbing the ladder. Agile does not define a hierarchal structure, so there is no career path.

                        An example of agile company, is Guidewire, the supplier of standard software for the insurance industry. They did Scrum from word go. Only the 5 Product Owners were stable. Every other role could rotate, and did every sprint. Interesting side effect: the people who worked there loved the place, and never left.

                        Cheers,

                        Peter




                        On 24.11.09 17:02, Aleksey Dmitriyev wrote:
                         

                        What if we reverse your question and ask why the corporations insist on having different roles and even a hierarchy? What should an ideal or even utopian organization look like? Practically, even the most agile companies like Rally software have roles, and even a hierarchy.

                        --Aleksey

                        -



                        -- 
                        Peter Stevens, CSM, CSPO, CSP
                        www.scrum-breakfast.com
                        tel: +41 44 586 6450 
                        



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