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BullPen

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  • Mike Beedle
    As you know we wrote a few Scrum Patterns a few years ago (circa 1996). http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201433044/ref=pm_dp_ln_b_
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 27, 2004
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      As you know we wrote a few "Scrum Patterns" a few years ago (circa
      1996).
      http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201433044/ref=pm_dp_ln_b_
      2/103-2054091-6573402?v=glance&s=books&vi=contents
      SCRUM: A Pattern Language for Hyperproductive Software Development,
      Mike Beedle, Martine Devos, Yonat Sharon, Ken Schwaber and Jeff
      Sutherland.

      The initial collection only had 3 Scrum patterns: Daily Scrum, Sprint,
      Product Backlog. But, of course, there are many more.

      BullPen, in my opinion, is a fundamental Scrum pattern.
      (See the end of this note to see its proto-pattern.)

      I invite everyone else to write or identify more Scrum,
      or more Scrum-friendly patterns.

      Btw, there is a new book by Coplien and Harrison that might
      be of interest to this group:

      Organizational Patterns of Agile Software Development
      by James O. Coplien, Neil B. Harrison
      http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0131467409/qid=1093640990/
      sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-2054091-6573402?v=glance&s=books

      - Mike

      BullPen (proto-pattern)

      Context:

      Developers need to be in constant communication since all of them
      are simultaneously doing requirements, analysis, programming,
      integration, testing; while constantly communicating with the
      customer either on-site or off-site.

      Forces:

      Having different team members segregated in their own cubes makes
      rapid communication difficult because either a large informal
      network is formed in hallways, or cubes, or conference rooms.

      Spending time together in conference rooms is not very productive
      because in many cases conferences rooms are shared resources
      with their own schedules and they typically don't have access
      to all development resources.

      Solution:

      Put everyone in a team into a large BullPen area, but
      mandate a set of rules so it is maintained as a productive
      environment.

      A BullPen environment facilitates communication, enables
      opportunistic collaboration and cooperation, and helps to
      jell a team.

      A large round table in the middle of the room with people working
      on laptops works best. (The laptops make it easier for people
      to bring their own computer closer to whomever they are
      cooperating with, but other arrangements like a good network
      environment work well as well.)

      Some ground rules:

      1) Long individual discussions need to happen in a
      PlaceOfOurOwn
      2) short personal conversation are ok but should not last
      more than a few minutes. Use ShareYourLifeAtBoundaryTimes
      instead.
      3) Calls not related to development and marketing demos should
      be
      conducted elsewhere. (Project demos are ok to do in the
      team environment.)
      4) Food and/or drinks are ok, as long as they are not
      distracting to the team.
      5) Flexible schedules are ok, but there must be an agreed-upon
      overlap time e.g. 9 am - 4 pm.
      6) Everyone must be willing to spontaneously pair with other
      except when working on a critical task.


      Resulting Context:

      The productivity of the team typically increases drastically
      after the first week or two. The team has a much better chance
      to jell.


      Known Uses:

      Every Scrum team... starting with the Borlard Quattro Pro, probably
      the first (unofficial) Scrum team in the planet.
    • John Gilman
      ... Mike, I was a little suprised to see you identify BullPen as a fundamental Scrum pattern. I have always viewed Scrum as a mostly a set of project
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 30, 2004
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        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Beedle"
        <beedlem@e...> wrote:

        > . . .
        > BullPen, in my opinion, is a fundamental Scrum pattern.
        > (See the end of this note to see its proto-pattern.)
        >
        > I invite everyone else to write or identify more Scrum,
        > or more Scrum-friendly patterns.

        Mike, I was a little suprised to see you identify BullPen as a
        fundamental Scrum pattern. I have always viewed Scrum as a mostly a
        set of project management patterns. BullPen seems to me more about
        the how of communication. Obviously it is core to XP and an
        important pattern for Development methodology patterns. Moreover,
        BullPen strongly complements Scrum and improves velocity, thus
        Xbreed.

        Other core Scrum patterns for me would be things like "Re-estimate
        daily (frequently)" or "Demonstrate Value Monthly (periodically)".
        I can imagine a successful Scrum project where the team didn't use a
        BullPen, I can't imagine telling someone I used Scrum where we
        didn't have the equivelant of standups or developers didn't re-
        estimate daily/fequently.

        Obviously, you are in a mildly (tongue in cheek) better position to
        argue what is core to Scrum and what isn't, but honestly if someone
        other than you had suggested that BullPen was a fundamental pattern
        for Scrum I would have argued the above.


        John Gilman
      • Mike Beedle
        ... John: What you say it is true, Scrum can be viewed as a set of patterns for project management , but it is also a development method. Much is lost, imo,
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 30, 2004
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          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Beedle"
          <beedlem@e...> wrote:
          > . . .
          > BullPen, in my opinion, is a fundamental Scrum pattern.
          > (See the end of this note to see its proto-pattern.)
          >
          > I invite everyone else to write or identify more Scrum,
          > or more Scrum-friendly patterns.

          John Gilman wrote:
          >Mike, I was a little surprised to see you identify BullPen as a
          >fundamental Scrum pattern. I have always viewed Scrum as a mostly a
          >set of project management patterns. BullPen seems to me more about
          >the how of communication. Obviously it is core to XP and an
          >important pattern for Development methodology patterns. Moreover,
          >BullPen strongly complements Scrum and improves velocity, thus
          >Xbreed.

          John:

          What you say it is true, Scrum can be viewed as a "set of patterns
          for project management", but it is also a development method.

          Much is lost, imo, when Scrum is reduced to a collection of
          "project management patterns" -- specially for those doing
          software development i.e. saying compliment Scrum with
          engineering practices just doesn't cut it.

          Among Scrum practitioners, BullPen or RoundTable has always
          been a useful pattern -- way before XP ever saw the light of
          day. (Dating back to the Borland Quattro team that Jeff Sutherland
          was emulating at EASEL. The same where Coplien et. al. documented
          many other organizational patterns.)

          The reason I call this fundamental, is that in my opinion the true
          magic of Scrum happens during the working day -- not within the
          Daily Scrum or even the larger context of a Sprint.

          It is that "continuous and dense social interaction" among
          intelligent agents (people!), that gives rise emergent behavior,
          self-organization, and higher adaptability; through opportunistic
          but constant collaboration and cooperation.

          I know this is "fancy talk" or as someone else said it is
          "fairy dust"... well call it anything you'd like, but that
          "fairy dust" generates increased revenues for us!!!

          We are more productive, have higher quality - less defects,
          live with less risk, and we have a more gratifying work experience.

          (I am in our development BullPen as I write this, btw, loosing
          cooperating with my peers.)


          John Gilman wrote:
          > Other core Scrum patterns for me would be things like "Re-estimate
          > daily (frequently)" or "Demonstrate Value Monthly (periodically)".

          Good patterns. The "Daily Scrum" and "Sprint" patterns sort-of
          encompass them because basically if you are doing Daily Scrums,
          we assume that you are doing daily estimations, and if you are
          doing Sprints then the team demonstrates value periodically. etc.

          But I like the explicit wording you use. Perhaps, at some point
          we should break "Daily Scrum" and "Sprint" into finer level patterns?

          Btw, we had a proto-pattern called "Demo after Sprint", what we
          now called "Sprint Review Meeting" (that never made into the
          press, btw), that more closely resembles what you allude to:

          "Demonstrate Value Monthly (periodically)"

          This is definitely a pattern.

          John Gilman wrote:
          > I can imagine a successful Scrum project where the team didn't use a
          > BullPen, I can't imagine telling someone I used Scrum where we
          > didn't have the equivelant of standups or developers didn't re-
          > estimate daily/fequently.

          It all depends at what level you want to be.

          You get more "Scrum magic" if you live in a BullPen, imo. I have
          done it both ways many times, and a BullPen has always won --
          significantly, in productivity and team-building.

          On the other hand, you don't necessarily need to have a Daily Scrum,
          if you "live together" in the same area because the *knowledge* about
          1) where you are, 2) what you are going to do, 3) the issues you have
          and
          4) your new estimates get socialized with the group during the day,
          and 5) your estimates get posted in the shared tool.

          So in our case, BullPen is more important -- that's what gets us
          more productivity, quality, team-building and higher knowledge.

          I am concerned sometimes with the connotation of "Scrum as
          Project Management patterns" because very important things like
          team cooperation collaboration, developer interaction, communications,
          requirements management, customer interaction, etc. are somewhat
          lost in that.

          Scrum's magic come from "holistic" multi-purpose practices/patterns:

          * Is it more project management? requirements management? or
          acceptance testing?
          * Is it "team building"? or is it more "customer interaction"?
          * Is it more about hyperproductivity or about quality?

          ... you guessed it.... it is "all of the above" combined.

          Scrum is a very fine example of the maxim:

          the "whole is greater than the sums of the parts"


          John Gilman wrote:
          >Obviously, you are in a mildly (tongue in cheek) better position to
          >argue what is core to Scrum and what isn't, but honestly if someone
          >other than you had suggested that BullPen was a fundamental pattern
          >for Scrum I would have argued the above.

          I make the argument from 2 perspectives:

          1) this is what many other teams have done "historically"
          2) this is what has worked best for me

          But don't believe me, try it both ways and see what works best for you,

          - Mike
        • Ken Schwaber
          There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to agile (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the meeting in Snowbird in 2001, Martin
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 30, 2004
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            There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to "agile"
            (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the meeting in
            Snowbird in 2001, Martin Fowler suggested that we name the thing
            "quackenpoof" rather than "agile" to discourage other people from cheaply
            using the name, as the have in this issue of CIO. "Oh, yes, goodness sakes,
            we are doing much better in my "100 Most Agile" organization... we now get
            the software out the door sometimes."

            I'd have been so much more pleased if one of these people had a clue about
            Agile rather than just the word agile. So, remember that when you discuss
            agile, if you are referring to the commercialization fad that will fade in
            about two years, use the small "a" agile. When you are referring to
            something that comforms to the Agile movement and the Agile manifesto, use
            the capital "A" Agile.

            Scrum on,
            Ken
          • Mike Cohn
            Agreed (and agreed ). I heard about CIO s theme issue on agile and was excited to get it. Then I read it and it was quite a let down. You re quite right that
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 30, 2004
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              Agreed (and "agreed"). I heard about CIO's theme issue on agile and was
              excited to get it. Then I read it and it was quite a let down. You're quite
              right that their top 100 companies didn't really seem to get agile. It was
              odd, too, that most of the articles were about IT (systems management type)
              groups rather than software development.

              Maybe we can convince CIO to run a "Scrum 100" next year and include some
              truly Agile stories.

              --Mike Cohn
              Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
              www.mountaingoatsoftware.com
              www.userstories.com


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
              Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 6:46 PM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [scrumdevelopment] agile vs Agile

              There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to "agile"
              (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the meeting in
              Snowbird in 2001, Martin Fowler suggested that we name the thing
              "quackenpoof" rather than "agile" to discourage other people from cheaply
              using the name, as the have in this issue of CIO. "Oh, yes, goodness sakes,
              we are doing much better in my "100 Most Agile" organization... we now get
              the software out the door sometimes."

              I'd have been so much more pleased if one of these people had a clue about
              Agile rather than just the word agile. So, remember that when you discuss
              agile, if you are referring to the commercialization fad that will fade in
              about two years, use the small "a" agile. When you are referring to
              something that comforms to the Agile movement and the Agile manifesto, use
              the capital "A" Agile.

              Scrum on,
              Ken




              To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Deb
              Are you talking about the whole series of articles that were recently added to the AgileAlliance s articles archive? Maybe it should be reconsidered, then,
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 30, 2004
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                Are you talking about the whole series of articles that were recently
                added to the AgileAlliance's articles archive?

                Maybe it should be reconsidered, then, whether they belong there?
                Might they be misleading? Something to consider...

                deb

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Cohn" <mike@m...> wrote:
                > Agreed (and "agreed"). I heard about CIO's theme issue on agile and was
                > excited to get it. Then I read it and it was quite a let down.
                You're quite
                > right that their top 100 companies didn't really seem to get agile.
                It was
                > odd, too, that most of the articles were about IT (systems
                management type)
                > groups rather than software development.
                >
                > Maybe we can convince CIO to run a "Scrum 100" next year and include
                some
                > truly Agile stories.
                >
                > --Mike Cohn
                > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                > www.mountaingoatsoftware.com
                > www.userstories.com
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@v...]
                > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 6:46 PM
                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] agile vs Agile
                >
                > There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to "agile"
                > (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the
                meeting in
                > Snowbird in 2001, Martin Fowler suggested that we name the thing
                > "quackenpoof" rather than "agile" to discourage other people from
                cheaply
                > using the name, as the have in this issue of CIO. "Oh, yes, goodness
                sakes,
                > we are doing much better in my "100 Most Agile" organization... we
                now get
                > the software out the door sometimes."
                >
                > I'd have been so much more pleased if one of these people had a clue
                about
                > Agile rather than just the word agile. So, remember that when you
                discuss
                > agile, if you are referring to the commercialization fad that will
                fade in
                > about two years, use the small "a" agile. When you are referring to
                > something that comforms to the Agile movement and the Agile
                manifesto, use
                > the capital "A" Agile.
                >
                > Scrum on,
                > Ken
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Deb
                ... Is much lost because it is reduced to patterns? Or because the patterns don t address the real core values of Scrum? What if we developed Scrum Org
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 30, 2004
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                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Beedle" <beedlem@e...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Beedle"
                  > <beedlem@e...> wrote:
                  > ...
                  > John:
                  >
                  > What you say it is true, Scrum can be viewed as a "set of patterns
                  > for project management", but it is also a development method.
                  >
                  > Much is lost, imo, when Scrum is reduced to a collection of
                  > "project management patterns" -- specially for those doing
                  > software development i.e. saying compliment Scrum with
                  > engineering practices just doesn't cut it.

                  Is much lost because it is reduced to patterns? Or because the
                  patterns don't address the real core values of Scrum? What if we
                  developed Scrum Org Patterns that do NOT focus on engineering
                  practices (which, after all are secondary, because of the "self
                  organising team" aspect of Scrum)? Patterns that address
                  organisational and human factors (as bullpen does). I'm thinking about
                  this a lot right now.

                  As Linda points out in The Patterns Handbook, it is not laudable to
                  record everything we know as a series of patterns. We need to pick the
                  seminal ones, the core ones, the most valuable ones, the agreed upon
                  recurrent ones, and pare the list down to a manageable few that help,
                  rather than overwhelm.

                  I'm avidly reading her book and finding it helpful in thinking about
                  how to start with patterns. I recommend it to anyone interested but
                  uncertain about how to use patterns, how to begin, how to keep it
                  sensible, how to make it a valuable effort ...

                  deb
                • Mike Cohn
                  I think they should be on the Agile Alliance article site (and I m the one who spent an hour adding them). The reason is that they *might be* of interest to
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 30, 2004
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                    I think they should be on the Agile Alliance article site (and I'm the one
                    who spent an hour adding them). The reason is that they *might be* of
                    interest to someone looking into agile. These companies have become more
                    agile than they were, even though they are often far from Agile. (Maybe we
                    can "sell" them Agile? :) )

                    If you (anyone) wouldn't recommend an article then I'd suggest going to the
                    www.agilealliance.org/articles site and rating it low. That way we keep the
                    content in one place for anyone to ever find it but opinions can be stated
                    about which articles are worth general reading and which aren't.

                    While you're at it, rate as many articles as you've read!

                    BTW, I'm always looking for volunteers to help read articles and get them on
                    the site as appropriate. Contact me off-list if you'd like to help.


                    --Mike Cohn
                    Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                    www.mountaingoatsoftware.com
                    www.userstories.com


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Deb [mailto:deborah@...]
                    Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 10:04 PM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: agile vs Agile

                    Are you talking about the whole series of articles that were recently
                    added to the AgileAlliance's articles archive?

                    Maybe it should be reconsidered, then, whether they belong there?
                    Might they be misleading? Something to consider...

                    deb

                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Cohn" <mike@m...> wrote:
                    > Agreed (and "agreed"). I heard about CIO's theme issue on agile and was
                    > excited to get it. Then I read it and it was quite a let down.
                    You're quite
                    > right that their top 100 companies didn't really seem to get agile.
                    It was
                    > odd, too, that most of the articles were about IT (systems
                    management type)
                    > groups rather than software development.
                    >
                    > Maybe we can convince CIO to run a "Scrum 100" next year and include
                    some
                    > truly Agile stories.
                    >
                    > --Mike Cohn
                    > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                    > www.mountaingoatsoftware.com
                    > www.userstories.com
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@v...]
                    > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 6:46 PM
                    > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] agile vs Agile
                    >
                    > There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to "agile"
                    > (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the
                    meeting in
                    > Snowbird in 2001, Martin Fowler suggested that we name the thing
                    > "quackenpoof" rather than "agile" to discourage other people from
                    cheaply
                    > using the name, as the have in this issue of CIO. "Oh, yes, goodness
                    sakes,
                    > we are doing much better in my "100 Most Agile" organization... we
                    now get
                    > the software out the door sometimes."
                    >
                    > I'd have been so much more pleased if one of these people had a clue
                    about
                    > Agile rather than just the word agile. So, remember that when you
                    discuss
                    > agile, if you are referring to the commercialization fad that will
                    fade in
                    > about two years, use the small "a" agile. When you are referring to
                    > something that comforms to the Agile movement and the Agile
                    manifesto, use
                    > the capital "A" Agile.
                    >
                    > Scrum on,
                    > Ken
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links




                    To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
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                  • Deb
                    ... reason is that they *might be* of ... (Maybe we ... to the ... keep the ... stated ... Doh! I had no idea that clicking on rate it would allow me to
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 31, 2004
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                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Cohn" <mike@m...> wrote:
                      > I think they should be on the Agile Alliance article site ... The
                      reason is that they *might be* of
                      > interest to someone looking into agile. These companies have become more
                      > agile than they were, even though they are often far from Agile.
                      (Maybe we
                      > can "sell" them Agile? :) )
                      >
                      > If you (anyone) wouldn't recommend an article then I'd suggest going
                      to the
                      > www.agilealliance.org/articles site and rating it low. That way we
                      keep the
                      > content in one place for anyone to ever find it but opinions can be
                      stated
                      > about which articles are worth general reading and which aren't.

                      Doh! I had no idea that clicking on "rate it" would allow me to write
                      a review, and read other people's reviews!!!

                      Given your point about these articles being useful for "some" people,
                      I'd hesitate to rate them low, but would prefer to write a review
                      specifying the applicability of the article. Good idea!

                      btw: There is no indication on the articles page, ex:
                      http://www.agilealliance.org/articles/searchResults?topic=Scrum
                      that there are reviews to go with the star-rating. Maybe we could
                      indicate this to the reader somehow? Both "rate it" and "read reviews"
                      could link to the same form, since these things appear together. What
                      do you think?

                      > BTW, I'm always looking for volunteers to help read articles and get
                      them on
                      > the site as appropriate. Contact me off-list if you'd like to help.
                      >
                      >
                      > --Mike Cohn
                      > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                      > www.mountaingoatsoftware.com
                      > www.userstories.com
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Deb [mailto:deborah@h...]
                      > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 10:04 PM
                      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: agile vs Agile
                      >
                      > Are you talking about the whole series of articles that were recently
                      > added to the AgileAlliance's articles archive?
                      >
                      > Maybe it should be reconsidered, then, whether they belong there?
                      > Might they be misleading? Something to consider...
                      >
                      > deb
                      >
                      > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Cohn" <mike@m...> wrote:
                      > > Agreed (and "agreed"). I heard about CIO's theme issue on agile
                      and was
                      > > excited to get it. Then I read it and it was quite a let down.
                      > You're quite
                      > > right that their top 100 companies didn't really seem to get agile.
                      > It was
                      > > odd, too, that most of the articles were about IT (systems
                      > management type)
                      > > groups rather than software development.
                      > >
                      > > Maybe we can convince CIO to run a "Scrum 100" next year and include
                      > some
                      > > truly Agile stories.
                      > >
                      > > --Mike Cohn
                      > > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                      > > www.mountaingoatsoftware.com
                      > > www.userstories.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@v...]
                      > > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 6:46 PM
                      > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] agile vs Agile
                      > >
                      > > There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to "agile"
                      > > (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the
                      > meeting in
                      > > Snowbird in 2001, Martin Fowler suggested that we name the thing
                      > > "quackenpoof" rather than "agile" to discourage other people from
                      > cheaply
                      > > using the name, as the have in this issue of CIO. "Oh, yes, goodness
                      > sakes,
                      > > we are doing much better in my "100 Most Agile" organization... we
                      > now get
                      > > the software out the door sometimes."
                      > >
                      > > I'd have been so much more pleased if one of these people had a clue
                      > about
                      > > Agile rather than just the word agile. So, remember that when you
                      > discuss
                      > > agile, if you are referring to the commercialization fad that will
                      > fade in
                      > > about two years, use the small "a" agile. When you are referring to
                      > > something that comforms to the Agile movement and the Agile
                      > manifesto, use
                      > > the capital "A" Agile.
                      > >
                      > > Scrum on,
                      > > Ken
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                      > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Linda Rising
                      Thank you, Deb. Here are some things I ve learned about patterns: Martin Fowler once told me, when I asked him whether I should write an idea I had as two
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 31, 2004
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                        Thank you, Deb.

                        Here are some things I've learned about patterns:

                        Martin Fowler once told me, when I asked him whether I should write an idea I had as
                        two patterns or one: Every pattern takes work and adds to the size of the resulting
                        language. Is the extra pattern really worth the work and the increased vocabulary?

                        I took this to mean that I should keep things as simple as possible -- but no simpler :-)!

                        Later on, someone else said, "Unless there's a horror story or a pot of gold behind it,
                        don't bother."

                        I actually like this better. I debated writing up a pattern for a long time until I remembered
                        this "horror story" advice. Since I had a "good" horror story I realized the penalty for *not*
                        knowing the pattern was worth the effort, so I wrote it.

                        Now, that's how I start --  I look for the compelling story!



                        Linda





                        Deb wrote:
                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Beedle" <beedlem@e...>
                        wrote:
                          
                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Beedle" 
                        <beedlem@e...> wrote:
                        ...
                        John:
                        
                        What you say it is true, Scrum can be viewed as a "set of patterns 
                        for project management", but it is also a development method.
                        
                        Much is lost, imo, when Scrum is reduced to a collection of 
                        "project management patterns" -- specially for those doing 
                        software development i.e. saying compliment Scrum with 
                        engineering practices just doesn't cut it.
                            
                        Is much lost because it is reduced to patterns? Or because the
                        patterns don't address the real core values of Scrum? What if we
                        developed Scrum Org Patterns that do NOT focus on engineering
                        practices (which, after all are secondary, because of the "self
                        organising team" aspect of Scrum)? Patterns that address
                        organisational and human factors (as bullpen does). I'm thinking about
                        this a lot right now. 
                        
                        As Linda points out in The Patterns Handbook, it is not laudable to
                        record everything we know as a series of patterns. We need to pick the
                        seminal ones, the core ones, the most valuable ones, the agreed upon
                        recurrent ones, and pare the list down to a manageable few that help,
                        rather than overwhelm.
                        
                        I'm avidly reading her book and finding it helpful in thinking about
                        how to start with patterns. I recommend it to anyone interested but
                        uncertain about how to use patterns, how to begin, how to keep it
                        sensible, how to make it a valuable effort ...
                        
                        deb
                        
                        
                        
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                      • Mike Beedle
                        ... Deb: Oh, I don t think it has much to do with the patterns side . It is more about reducing Scrum to just project management. In my opinion, it is not
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 31, 2004
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                          Mike wrote:
                          > What you say it is true, Scrum can be viewed as a "set of patterns
                          > for project management", but it is also a development method.
                          >
                          > Much is lost, imo, when Scrum is reduced to a collection of
                          > "project management patterns" -- specially for those doing
                          > software development i.e. saying compliment Scrum with
                          > engineering practices just doesn't cut it.

                          Deb wrote:
                          > Is much lost because it is reduced to patterns? Or because the
                          > patterns don't address the real core values of Scrum?


                          Deb:

                          Oh, I don't think it has much to do with the "patterns side".

                          It is more about reducing Scrum to just project management.

                          In my opinion, it is not just *project management* even in
                          other field other than software development.

                          Let me explain, Scrum is:

                          * requirements management (Product Backlog/Sprint Backlog)
                          * customer interaction management (Sprint Review/Sprint
                          Planning,
                          On-site Customer, Reprioritization Meetings, etc.)
                          * testing strategy (Acceptance Tests are typically documented
                          in the Sprint Backlog for each Backlog item or its tasks)
                          * team building, collaboration/cooperation/culture
                          * some engineering... (mostly rapid integration, testing,
                          release management, requirements/analysis/design/refactoring/
                          programming)
                          * and yes,......... project management
                          * and probably much more.

                          The Scrum practices/patterns are holistic: they affect many
                          areas at once. That's what makes Scrum so powerful yet simple.


                          Deb wrote:
                          > What if we developed Scrum Org Patterns that do NOT focus
                          > on engineering practices (which, after all are secondary, because
                          > of the "self organising team" aspect of Scrum)? Patterns that address
                          > organisational and human factors (as bullpen does). I'm thinking about
                          > this a lot right now.

                          This makes sense. Patterns, in general are cross-disciplinary,
                          multi-purpose, multi-force resolving specially when used in
                          a mini-language.

                          Deb wrote:
                          > As Linda points out in The Patterns Handbook, it is not laudable to
                          > record everything we know as a series of patterns. We need to pick the

                          > seminal ones, the core ones, the most valuable ones, the agreed upon
                          > recurrent ones, and pare the list down to a manageable few that help,
                          > rather than overwhelm.

                          True. Finding things that are "fundamental" is the art of
                          mining/writing patterns.

                          Deb wrote:
                          > I'm avidly reading her book and finding it helpful in thinking about
                          > how to start with patterns. I recommend it to anyone interested but
                          > uncertain about how to use patterns, how to begin, how to keep it
                          > sensible, how to make it a valuable effort ...

                          I agree: it is worth-while reading,

                          - Mike
                        • Daniel Gackle
                          Ken, I agree. Reading those articles, I was astonished at how contentless they are. It s impossible to figure out what they mean by agile because, IMHO,
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 31, 2004
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                            Ken,

                            I agree. Reading those articles, I was astonished at how contentless they are. It's impossible to figure out what they mean by "agile" because, IMHO, they don't mean anything by it. A precise translation might be "buzz buzz buzz".

                            Perhaps this is an inevitable stage in the lifecycle of any movement that reaches a certain mass. If so, we can expect this wave of misunderstanding to continue. What matters is that enough of the core value manage to survive it. The key place to preserve this value is in our own individual and team practice.

                            This relates to the conversation about "selling agile". The risk in selling agile is that only the word will be bought and exchanged, not the core. (For this we now have Exhibit A: CIO magazine.) This will make some people some money, but it will not bring what many of us would most like to see from Agile, which someone expressed to me recently as "making software projects less soul-destroying".

                            You can bottle the bathwater, but not the baby.

                            - Daniel


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 1:34 am
                            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Digest Number 701

                            There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to "agile"
                            (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the meeting in
                            Snowbird in 2001, Martin Fowler suggested that we name the thing
                            "quackenpoof" rather than "agile" to discourage other people from cheaply
                            using the name, as the have in this issue of CIO. "Oh, yes, goodness sakes,
                            we are doing much better in my "100 Most Agile" organization... we now get
                            the software out the door sometimes."

                            I'd have been so much more pleased if one of these people had a clue about
                            Agile rather than just the word agile. So, remember that when you discuss
                            agile, if you are referring to the commercialization fad that will fade in
                            about two years, use the small "a" agile. When you are referring to
                            something that comforms to the Agile movement and the Agile manifesto, use
                            the capital "A" Agile.

                            Scrum on,
                            Ken
                          • Deb
                            Thanks, your list of Scrum is is very helpful, Mike. More grist for the mill. deb ... requirements/analysis/design/refactoring/ ... address ... about ... to
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 31, 2004
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                              Thanks, your list of "Scrum is" is very helpful, Mike.
                              More grist for the mill.
                              deb

                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Beedle" <beedlem@e...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Mike wrote:
                              > > What you say it is true, Scrum can be viewed as a "set of patterns
                              > > for project management", but it is also a development method.
                              > >
                              > > Much is lost, imo, when Scrum is reduced to a collection of
                              > > "project management patterns" -- specially for those doing
                              > > software development i.e. saying compliment Scrum with
                              > > engineering practices just doesn't cut it.
                              >
                              > Deb wrote:
                              > > Is much lost because it is reduced to patterns? Or because the
                              > > patterns don't address the real core values of Scrum?
                              >
                              >
                              > Deb:
                              >
                              > Oh, I don't think it has much to do with the "patterns side".
                              >
                              > It is more about reducing Scrum to just project management.
                              >
                              > In my opinion, it is not just *project management* even in
                              > other field other than software development.
                              >
                              > Let me explain, Scrum is:
                              >
                              > * requirements management (Product Backlog/Sprint Backlog)
                              > * customer interaction management (Sprint Review/Sprint
                              > Planning,
                              > On-site Customer, Reprioritization Meetings, etc.)
                              > * testing strategy (Acceptance Tests are typically documented
                              > in the Sprint Backlog for each Backlog item or its tasks)
                              > * team building, collaboration/cooperation/culture
                              > * some engineering... (mostly rapid integration, testing,
                              > release management,
                              requirements/analysis/design/refactoring/
                              > programming)
                              > * and yes,......... project management
                              > * and probably much more.
                              >
                              > The Scrum practices/patterns are holistic: they affect many
                              > areas at once. That's what makes Scrum so powerful yet simple.
                              >
                              >
                              > Deb wrote:
                              > > What if we developed Scrum Org Patterns that do NOT focus
                              > > on engineering practices (which, after all are secondary, because
                              > > of the "self organising team" aspect of Scrum)? Patterns that
                              address
                              > > organisational and human factors (as bullpen does). I'm thinking
                              about
                              > > this a lot right now.
                              >
                              > This makes sense. Patterns, in general are cross-disciplinary,
                              > multi-purpose, multi-force resolving specially when used in
                              > a mini-language.
                              >
                              > Deb wrote:
                              > > As Linda points out in The Patterns Handbook, it is not laudable
                              to
                              > > record everything we know as a series of patterns. We need to
                              pick the
                              >
                              > > seminal ones, the core ones, the most valuable ones, the agreed
                              upon
                              > > recurrent ones, and pare the list down to a manageable few that
                              help,
                              > > rather than overwhelm.
                              >
                              > True. Finding things that are "fundamental" is the art of
                              > mining/writing patterns.
                              >
                              > Deb wrote:
                              > > I'm avidly reading her book and finding it helpful in thinking
                              about
                              > > how to start with patterns. I recommend it to anyone interested
                              but
                              > > uncertain about how to use patterns, how to begin, how to keep it
                              > > sensible, how to make it a valuable effort ...
                              >
                              > I agree: it is worth-while reading,
                              >
                              > - Mike
                            • Mike Beedle
                              Ken/Daniel: Your postings reminded me of something I wrote a couple of years ago: It troubles me that the _fundamental differences_ between traditional and
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 31, 2004
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                                Ken/Daniel:

                                Your postings reminded me of something I wrote a couple of years ago:

                                "It troubles me that the _fundamental differences_ between traditional
                                and agile processes are not highlighted, either by the creators
                                and supporters of the Agile movement, or by traditional
                                software development figure-heads."
                                http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRevolution


                                " ...Agile Software Development will be in the 2000's what
                                Defined-Process Software Development was in the 1980's. Everyone
                                will be in favor of it. Every manufacturer will promote his
                                products as supporting it. Every manager will pay lip service
                                to it. Every programmer will practice it (differently).
                                And no one will know just what it is."
                                http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRentschianThinking


                                ..... unfortunately, "agile" is bound to go through that
                                irreversible cycle of commercialization that tends to evaporate
                                the meaning of valuable things as it has done with
                                "structured programming", "functional programming",
                                "object-oriented programming", "agent-technology", and now
                                "service-oriented architecture".

                                Just like everything else that our industry has managed to
                                mangle, obfuscate, obscure, but simultaneously glamorize and
                                idolize, "agile development", like any other wave, will be
                                the prey of commercialization, opportunism, envy,
                                silver-bulleting, .... and the rest of the socio-economic
                                diseases of our time.

                                Agile is dead, Long live Agile!

                                - Mike

                                (For some reason this discussion makes me think of the following poem
                                ;-)

                                Could Be

                                I only sang
                                because the lonely road was long;
                                and now the road and I are gone
                                but not the song.
                                I only spoke
                                the verse to pay for borrowed time
                                and now the clock and I are broken
                                but not the rhyme.
                                Possibly,
                                the self not being fundamental,
                                eternity
                                breathes only on the incidental.

                                -- Ernesto Galarza (1905-1984)

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Daniel Gackle [mailto:gackle@...]
                                Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 12:10 PM
                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile


                                Ken,

                                I agree. Reading those articles, I was astonished at how contentless
                                they are. It's impossible to figure out what they mean by "agile"
                                because, IMHO, they don't mean anything by it. A precise translation
                                might be "buzz buzz buzz".

                                Perhaps this is an inevitable stage in the lifecycle of any movement
                                that reaches a certain mass. If so, we can expect this wave of
                                misunderstanding to continue. What matters is that enough of the core
                                value manage to survive it. The key place to preserve this value is in
                                our own individual and team practice.

                                This relates to the conversation about "selling agile". The risk in
                                selling agile is that only the word will be bought and exchanged, not
                                the core. (For this we now have Exhibit A: CIO magazine.) This will make
                                some people some money, but it will not bring what many of us would most
                                like to see from Agile, which someone expressed to me recently as
                                "making software projects less soul-destroying".

                                You can bottle the bathwater, but not the baby.

                                - Daniel


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 1:34 am
                                Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Digest Number 701

                                There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to "agile"
                                (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the meeting
                                in Snowbird in 2001, Martin Fowler suggested that we name the thing
                                "quackenpoof" rather than "agile" to discourage other people from
                                cheaply using the name, as the have in this issue of CIO. "Oh, yes,
                                goodness sakes, we are doing much better in my "100 Most Agile"
                                organization... we now get the software out the door sometimes."

                                I'd have been so much more pleased if one of these people had a clue
                                about Agile rather than just the word agile. So, remember that when you
                                discuss agile, if you are referring to the commercialization fad that
                                will fade in about two years, use the small "a" agile. When you are
                                referring to something that comforms to the Agile movement and the Agile
                                manifesto, use the capital "A" Agile.

                                Scrum on,
                                Ken




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                              • David A Barrett
                                ... Now I have to think, what can you do when you re building a system to create this situation? How would you design a system such that any conceivable
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 31, 2004
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                                  I thought this quote was particularly telling:

                                  >"When a business [unit] owner comes to me with a need,
                                  >I would like to be able to say, This is merely a configuration
                                  >change, rather than saying, It'll take nine months, and you'll
                                  >have to go to the board because it's going to be a whopper.
                                  >That's agility," he says.

                                  Now I have to think, what can you do when you're building a system to
                                  create this situation? How would you design a system such that any
                                  conceivable change request would be "merely a configuration change", rather
                                  than 9 months of development? It seems to me that the development of such
                                  a system would be the very opposite of Agile, and would probably add more
                                  than 9 months to the original development time.

                                  I get that they are defining "agile" to mean flexibility and the ability to
                                  react to shifting business needs quickly. It seems to me, though, that
                                  they are still trying to bang the same square peg they've always used into
                                  a new round hole. The results will probably be predictable.


                                  Dave Barrett,
                                  Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
                                • Mike Cohn
                                  The reviews are extremely useful when we get them but are few and far between. There have been 816 ratings of site articles but only 43 reviews. I m reluctant
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 31, 2004
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                                    The reviews are extremely useful when we get them but are few and far
                                    between. There have been 816 ratings of site articles but only 43 reviews.
                                    I'm reluctant to put much more effort into getting more reviews, especially
                                    since I've been lobbying to move off the current semi-CMS that is used for
                                    the Agile Alliance site.

                                    --Mike Cohn
                                    Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                                    www.mountaingoatsoftware.com
                                    www.userstories.com

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Deb [mailto:deborah@...]
                                    Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 5:49 AM
                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: agile vs Agile

                                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Cohn" <mike@m...> wrote:
                                    > I think they should be on the Agile Alliance article site ... The
                                    reason is that they *might be* of
                                    > interest to someone looking into agile. These companies have become more
                                    > agile than they were, even though they are often far from Agile.
                                    (Maybe we
                                    > can "sell" them Agile? :) )
                                    >
                                    > If you (anyone) wouldn't recommend an article then I'd suggest going
                                    to the
                                    > www.agilealliance.org/articles site and rating it low. That way we
                                    keep the
                                    > content in one place for anyone to ever find it but opinions can be
                                    stated
                                    > about which articles are worth general reading and which aren't.

                                    Doh! I had no idea that clicking on "rate it" would allow me to write
                                    a review, and read other people's reviews!!!

                                    Given your point about these articles being useful for "some" people,
                                    I'd hesitate to rate them low, but would prefer to write a review
                                    specifying the applicability of the article. Good idea!

                                    btw: There is no indication on the articles page, ex:
                                    http://www.agilealliance.org/articles/searchResults?topic=Scrum
                                    that there are reviews to go with the star-rating. Maybe we could
                                    indicate this to the reader somehow? Both "rate it" and "read reviews"
                                    could link to the same form, since these things appear together. What
                                    do you think?

                                    > BTW, I'm always looking for volunteers to help read articles and get
                                    them on
                                    > the site as appropriate. Contact me off-list if you'd like to help.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --Mike Cohn
                                    > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                                    > www.mountaingoatsoftware.com
                                    > www.userstories.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Deb [mailto:deborah@h...]
                                    > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 10:04 PM
                                    > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: agile vs Agile
                                    >
                                    > Are you talking about the whole series of articles that were recently
                                    > added to the AgileAlliance's articles archive?
                                    >
                                    > Maybe it should be reconsidered, then, whether they belong there?
                                    > Might they be misleading? Something to consider...
                                    >
                                    > deb
                                    >
                                    > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Cohn" <mike@m...> wrote:
                                    > > Agreed (and "agreed"). I heard about CIO's theme issue on agile
                                    and was
                                    > > excited to get it. Then I read it and it was quite a let down.
                                    > You're quite
                                    > > right that their top 100 companies didn't really seem to get agile.
                                    > It was
                                    > > odd, too, that most of the articles were about IT (systems
                                    > management type)
                                    > > groups rather than software development.
                                    > >
                                    > > Maybe we can convince CIO to run a "Scrum 100" next year and include
                                    > some
                                    > > truly Agile stories.
                                    > >
                                    > > --Mike Cohn
                                    > > Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development
                                    > > www.mountaingoatsoftware.com
                                    > > www.userstories.com
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@v...]
                                    > > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 6:46 PM
                                    > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] agile vs Agile
                                    > >
                                    > > There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to "agile"
                                    > > (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the
                                    > meeting in
                                    > > Snowbird in 2001, Martin Fowler suggested that we name the thing
                                    > > "quackenpoof" rather than "agile" to discourage other people from
                                    > cheaply
                                    > > using the name, as the have in this issue of CIO. "Oh, yes, goodness
                                    > sakes,
                                    > > we are doing much better in my "100 Most Agile" organization... we
                                    > now get
                                    > > the software out the door sometimes."
                                    > >
                                    > > I'd have been so much more pleased if one of these people had a clue
                                    > about
                                    > > Agile rather than just the word agile. So, remember that when you
                                    > discuss
                                    > > agile, if you are referring to the commercialization fad that will
                                    > fade in
                                    > > about two years, use the small "a" agile. When you are referring to
                                    > > something that comforms to the Agile movement and the Agile
                                    > manifesto, use
                                    > > the capital "A" Agile.
                                    > >
                                    > > Scrum on,
                                    > > Ken
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                                    > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                    > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                    > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links




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                                  • Garnett, Steve
                                    Mike, I ve been reading the thread on agile v Agile whilst trying to articulate and sell Agile within my company and to prospective customers. I have
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Sep 1, 2004
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                                      Mike,

                                       

                                      I’ve been reading the thread on agile v Agile whilst trying to articulate and “sell” Agile within my company and to prospective customers. I have recently completed my first project as scrum master.

                                       

                                      The way I have begun to see scrum mastering versus traditional project management is similar to the difference between transactional and transformational leadership, and similar in consequence between hierarchical/process organizations and flat-structured/cultural organizations.

                                       

                                      It is by using “metaphors” such as these that I am finding some traction with the “unconverted hordes”.

                                       

                                      The problem I’m having with “selling” Agile is that most of my customers think in a traditional way, the rationalism of Weber… This is leading the marketing team to sell Agile techniques using traditional language.

                                       

                                      How can I articulate the difference that self-organization makes to a team versus command and control structures without evidence!

                                       

                                      I am swiftly coming to the conclusion that the only way we will “sell” Agile is to do so by example. Until there is clear proof of its value, the dominant logic of the IT industry will be to load the front-end of projects with planning, and play the “cover my back” game with risks and issues logs.

                                       

                                      I think the best way forward is to introduce Agile methods covertly, starting with the incremental introduction of XP development practices by the team and then over-laying it with Scrum once you’ve got enough stakeholders on board. There will always be some customers open to an Agile approach from the outset, but particularly in the UK these are few and far between.

                                       

                                      The important thing is to maintain groups like this, and particularly the agile alliance to ensure there is a “pure” source somewhere!

                                       

                                      Regards,

                                       

                                      Steve  

                                       


                                      From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
                                      Sent: 31 August 2004 20:27
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: !RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile

                                       


                                      Ken/Daniel:

                                      Your postings reminded me of something I wrote a couple of years ago:

                                      "It troubles me that the _fundamental differences_ between traditional
                                      and agile processes are not highlighted, either by the creators
                                      and supporters of the Agile movement, or by traditional
                                      software development figure-heads."
                                      http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRevolution


                                      " ...Agile Software Development will be in the 2000's what
                                      Defined-Process Software Development was in the 1980's. Everyone
                                      will be in favor of it. Every manufacturer will promote his
                                      products as supporting it. Every manager will pay lip service
                                      to it. Every programmer will practice it (differently).
                                      And no one will know just what it is."
                                      http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRentschianThinking


                                      ..... unfortunately, "agile" is bound to go through that
                                      irreversible cycle of commercialization that tends to evaporate
                                      the meaning of valuable things as it has done with
                                      "structured programming", "functional programming",
                                      "object-oriented programming", "agent-technology", and now
                                      "service-oriented architecture".

                                      Just like everything else that our industry has managed to
                                      mangle, obfuscate, obscure, but simultaneously glamorize and
                                      idolize, "agile development", like any other wave, will be
                                      the prey of commercialization, opportunism, envy,
                                      silver-bulleting, .... and the rest of the socio-economic
                                      diseases of our time.

                                      Agile is dead, Long live Agile!

                                      - Mike

                                      (For some reason this discussion makes me think of the following poem
                                      ;-)

                                      Could Be

                                      I only sang
                                      because the lonely road was long;
                                      and now the road and I are gone
                                      but not the song.
                                      I only spoke
                                      the verse to pay for borrowed time
                                      and now the clock and I are broken
                                      but not the rhyme.
                                      Possibly,
                                      the self not being fundamental,
                                      eternity
                                      breathes only on the incidental.

                                            -- Ernesto Galarza (1905-1984)

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Daniel Gackle [mailto:gackle@...]
                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 12:10 PM
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile


                                      Ken,

                                      I agree. Reading those articles, I was astonished at how contentless
                                      they are.  It's impossible to figure out what they mean by "agile"
                                      because, IMHO, they don't mean anything by it. A precise translation
                                      might be "buzz buzz buzz".

                                      Perhaps this is an inevitable stage in the lifecycle of any movement
                                      that reaches a certain mass. If so, we can expect this wave of
                                      misunderstanding to continue. What matters is that enough of the core
                                      value manage to survive it. The key place to preserve this value is in
                                      our own individual and team practice.

                                      This relates to the conversation about "selling agile". The risk in
                                      selling agile is that only the word will be bought and exchanged, not
                                      the core. (For this we now have Exhibit A: CIO magazine.) This will make
                                      some people some money, but it will not bring what many of us would most
                                      like to see from Agile, which someone expressed to me recently as
                                      "making software projects less soul-destroying".

                                      You can bottle the bathwater, but not the baby.

                                      - Daniel


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 1:34 am
                                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Digest Number 701

                                      There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to "agile"
                                      (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the meeting
                                      in Snowbird in 2001, Martin Fowler suggested that we name the thing
                                      "quackenpoof" rather than "agile" to discourage other people from
                                      cheaply using the name, as the have in this issue of CIO. "Oh, yes,
                                      goodness sakes, we are doing much better in my "100 Most Agile"
                                      organization... we now get the software out the door sometimes."

                                      I'd have been so much more pleased if one of these people had a clue
                                      about Agile rather than just the word agile. So, remember that when you
                                      discuss agile, if you are referring to the commercialization fad that
                                      will fade in about two years, use the small "a" agile. When you are
                                      referring to something that comforms to the Agile movement and the Agile
                                      manifesto, use the capital "A" Agile.

                                      Scrum on,
                                      Ken




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                                      This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MessageLabs. The information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, please notify Conchango plc as soon as possible. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is prohibited and may be unlawful. The internet cannot guarantee the integrity of this message and therefore Conchango plc will not be liable for the message if modified.

                                      Reg. Heritage House, Church Road, Egham, Surrey, TW20 9QD T 44 (0) 1784 222 222 F 44 (0) 1784 222 200 E talktous@... No. 2598884
                                    • Tim Marston
                                      Steve, Has this first project been a success, which you are now able to proffer as evidence to the less enthusiastic areas? Tim ... From: Garnett, Steve
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Sep 1, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Steve,
                                         
                                            Has this first project been a success, which you are now able to proffer as evidence to the less enthusiastic areas?
                                         
                                        Tim
                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Garnett, Steve [mailto:steve.garnett@...]
                                        Sent: 01 September 2004 09:45
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile

                                        Mike,

                                         

                                        I’ve been reading the thread on agile v Agile whilst trying to articulate and “sell” Agile within my company and to prospective customers. I have recently completed my first project as scrum master.

                                         

                                        The way I have begun to see scrum mastering versus traditional project management is similar to the difference between transactional and transformational leadership, and similar in consequence between hierarchical/process organizations and flat-structured/cultural organizations.

                                         

                                        It is by using “metaphors” such as these that I am finding some traction with the “unconverted hordes”.

                                         

                                        The problem I’m having with “selling” Agile is that most of my customers think in a traditional way, the rationalism of Weber… This is leading the marketing team to sell Agile techniques using traditional language.

                                         

                                        How can I articulate the difference that self-organization makes to a team versus command and control structures without evidence!

                                         

                                        I am swiftly coming to the conclusion that the only way we will “sell” Agile is to do so by example. Until there is clear proof of its value, the dominant logic of the IT industry will be to load the front-end of projects with planning, and play the “cover my back” game with risks and issues logs.

                                         

                                        I think the best way forward is to introduce Agile methods covertly, starting with the incremental introduction of XP development practices by the team and then over-laying it with Scrum once you’ve got enough stakeholders on board. There will always be some customers open to an Agile approach from the outset, but particularly in the UK these are few and far between.

                                         

                                        The important thing is to maintain groups like this, and particularly the agile alliance to ensure there is a “pure” source somewhere!

                                         

                                        Regards,

                                         

                                        Steve  

                                         


                                        From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
                                        Sent: 31 August 2004 20:27
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: !RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile

                                         


                                        Ken/Daniel:

                                        Your postings reminded me of something I wrote a couple of years ago:

                                        "It troubles me that the _fundamental differences_ between traditional
                                        and agile processes are not highlighted, either by the creators
                                        and supporters of the Agile movement, or by traditional
                                        software development figure-heads."
                                        http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRevolution


                                        " ...Agile Software Development will be in the 2000's what
                                        Defined-Process Software Development was in the 1980's. Everyone
                                        will be in favor of it. Every manufacturer will promote his
                                        products as supporting it. Every manager will pay lip service
                                        to it. Every programmer will practice it (differently).
                                        And no one will know just what it is."
                                        http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRentschianThinking


                                        ..... unfortunately, "agile" is bound to go through that
                                        irreversible cycle of commercialization that tends to evaporate
                                        the meaning of valuable things as it has done with
                                        "structured programming", "functional programming",
                                        "object-oriented programming", "agent-technology", and now
                                        "service-oriented architecture".

                                        Just like everything else that our industry has managed to
                                        mangle, obfuscate, obscure, but simultaneously glamorize and
                                        idolize, "agile development", like any other wave, will be
                                        the prey of commercialization, opportunism, envy,
                                        silver-bulleting, .... and the rest of the socio-economic
                                        diseases of our time.

                                        Agile is dead, Long live Agile!

                                        - Mike

                                        (For some reason this discussion makes me think of the following poem
                                        ;-)

                                        Could Be

                                        I only sang
                                        because the lonely road was long;
                                        and now the road and I are gone
                                        but not the song.
                                        I only spoke
                                        the verse to pay for borrowed time
                                        and now the clock and I are broken
                                        but not the rhyme.
                                        Possibly,
                                        the self not being fundamental,
                                        eternity
                                        breathes only on the incidental.

                                              -- Ernesto Galarza (1905-1984)

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Daniel Gackle [mailto:gackle@...]
                                        Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 12:10 PM
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile


                                        Ken,

                                        I agree. Reading those articles, I was astonished at how contentless
                                        they are.  It's impossible to figure out what they mean by "agile"
                                        because, IMHO, they don't mean anything by it. A precise translation
                                        might be "buzz buzz buzz".

                                        Perhaps this is an inevitable stage in the lifecycle of any movement
                                        that reaches a certain mass. If so, we can expect this wave of
                                        misunderstanding to continue. What matters is that enough of the core
                                        value manage to survive it. The key place to preserve this value is in
                                        our own individual and team practice.

                                        This relates to the conversation about "selling agile". The risk in
                                        selling agile is that only the word will be bought and exchanged, not
                                        the core. (For this we now have Exhibit A: CIO magazine.) This will make
                                        some people some money, but it will not bring what many of us would most
                                        like to see from Agile, which someone expressed to me recently as
                                        "making software projects less soul-destroying".

                                        You can bottle the bathwater, but not the baby.

                                        - Daniel


                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 1:34 am
                                        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Digest Number 701

                                        There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to "agile"
                                        (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the meeting
                                        in Snowbird in 2001, Martin Fowler suggested that we name the thing
                                        "quackenpoof" rather than "agile" to discourage other people from
                                        cheaply using the name, as the have in this issue of CIO. "Oh, yes,
                                        goodness sakes, we are doing much better in my "100 Most Agile"
                                        organization... we now get the software out the door sometimes."

                                        I'd have been so much more pleased if one of these people had a clue
                                        about Agile rather than just the word agile. So, remember that when you
                                        discuss agile, if you are referring to the commercialization fad that
                                        will fade in about two years, use the small "a" agile. When you are
                                        referring to something that comforms to the Agile movement and the Agile
                                        manifesto, use the capital "A" Agile.

                                        Scrum on,
                                        Ken




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                                        _____________________________________________________________________
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                                      • Ken Schwaber
                                        I think our job is to keep the baby alive, help it grow, and watch it mature and have a life, a real life, of its own. Ken
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Sep 1, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I think our job is to keep the baby alive, help it grow, and watch it mature and have a life, a real life, of its own.
                                          Ken
                                          >
                                          > From: "Mike Beedle" <beedlem@...>
                                          > Date: 2004/08/31 Tue PM 02:27:08 CDT
                                          > To: <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Subject: !RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Ken/Daniel:
                                          >
                                          > Your postings reminded me of something I wrote a couple of years ago:
                                          >
                                          > "It troubles me that the _fundamental differences_ between traditional
                                          > and agile processes are not highlighted, either by the creators
                                          > and supporters of the Agile movement, or by traditional
                                          > software development figure-heads."
                                          > http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRevolution
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > " ...Agile Software Development will be in the 2000's what
                                          > Defined-Process Software Development was in the 1980's. Everyone
                                          > will be in favor of it. Every manufacturer will promote his
                                          > products as supporting it. Every manager will pay lip service
                                          > to it. Every programmer will practice it (differently).
                                          > And no one will know just what it is."
                                          > http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRentschianThinking
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ..... unfortunately, "agile" is bound to go through that
                                          > irreversible cycle of commercialization that tends to evaporate
                                          > the meaning of valuable things as it has done with
                                          > "structured programming", "functional programming",
                                          > "object-oriented programming", "agent-technology", and now
                                          > "service-oriented architecture".
                                          >
                                          > Just like everything else that our industry has managed to
                                          > mangle, obfuscate, obscure, but simultaneously glamorize and
                                          > idolize, "agile development", like any other wave, will be
                                          > the prey of commercialization, opportunism, envy,
                                          > silver-bulleting, .... and the rest of the socio-economic
                                          > diseases of our time.
                                          >
                                          > Agile is dead, Long live Agile!
                                          >
                                          > - Mike
                                          >
                                          > (For some reason this discussion makes me think of the following poem
                                          > ;-)
                                          >
                                          > Could Be
                                          >
                                          > I only sang
                                          > because the lonely road was long;
                                          > and now the road and I are gone
                                          > but not the song.
                                          > I only spoke
                                          > the verse to pay for borrowed time
                                          > and now the clock and I are broken
                                          > but not the rhyme.
                                          > Possibly,
                                          > the self not being fundamental,
                                          > eternity
                                          > breathes only on the incidental.
                                          >
                                          > -- Ernesto Galarza (1905-1984)
                                          >
                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: Daniel Gackle [mailto:gackle@...]
                                          > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 12:10 PM
                                          > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Ken,
                                          >
                                          > I agree. Reading those articles, I was astonished at how contentless
                                          > they are. It's impossible to figure out what they mean by "agile"
                                          > because, IMHO, they don't mean anything by it. A precise translation
                                          > might be "buzz buzz buzz".
                                          >
                                          > Perhaps this is an inevitable stage in the lifecycle of any movement
                                          > that reaches a certain mass. If so, we can expect this wave of
                                          > misunderstanding to continue. What matters is that enough of the core
                                          > value manage to survive it. The key place to preserve this value is in
                                          > our own individual and team practice.
                                          >
                                          > This relates to the conversation about "selling agile". The risk in
                                          > selling agile is that only the word will be bought and exchanged, not
                                          > the core. (For this we now have Exhibit A: CIO magazine.) This will make
                                          > some people some money, but it will not bring what many of us would most
                                          > like to see from Agile, which someone expressed to me recently as
                                          > "making software projects less soul-destroying".
                                          >
                                          > You can bottle the bathwater, but not the baby.
                                          >
                                          > - Daniel
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 1:34 am
                                          > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Digest Number 701
                                          >
                                          > There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to "agile"
                                          > (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the meeting
                                          > in Snowbird in 2001, Martin Fowler suggested that we name the thing
                                          > "quackenpoof" rather than "agile" to discourage other people from
                                          > cheaply using the name, as the have in this issue of CIO. "Oh, yes,
                                          > goodness sakes, we are doing much better in my "100 Most Agile"
                                          > organization... we now get the software out the door sometimes."
                                          >
                                          > I'd have been so much more pleased if one of these people had a clue
                                          > about Agile rather than just the word agile. So, remember that when you
                                          > discuss agile, if you are referring to the commercialization fad that
                                          > will fade in about two years, use the small "a" agile. When you are
                                          > referring to something that comforms to the Agile movement and the Agile
                                          > manifesto, use the capital "A" Agile.
                                          >
                                          > Scrum on,
                                          > Ken
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                          > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          > ADVERTISEMENT
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          >
                                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment/
                                          >
                                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Clarke Ching
                                          ... Or we could sell the baby to gypsies, take the money and run.
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Sep 1, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
                                            >
                                            > I think our job is to keep the baby alive, help it grow, and
                                            > watch it mature and have a life, a real life, of its own.
                                            > Ken

                                            Or we could sell the baby to gypsies, take the money and run.
                                          • Hubert Smits
                                            Clarke! We re not all from Linlithgow. Behave! ... -- Hubert hubert.smits@gmail.com
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Sep 1, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Clarke! We're not all from Linlithgow. Behave!

                                              On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:32:53 +0100, Clarke Ching <lists@...> wrote:
                                              > > From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
                                              > >
                                              > > I think our job is to keep the baby alive, help it grow, and
                                              > > watch it mature and have a life, a real life, of its own.
                                              > > Ken
                                              >
                                              > Or we could sell the baby to gypsies, take the money and run.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >


                                              --
                                              Hubert

                                              hubert.smits@...
                                            • Garnett, Steve
                                              Tim, Yes, everyone associated with the project believes it has been brilliant. The business are far more confident and happy with the functionality built, its
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Sep 1, 2004
                                              • 0 Attachment

                                                Tim,

                                                 

                                                Yes, everyone associated with the project believes it has been brilliant. The business are far more confident and happy with the functionality built, its been built to budget, and we’ve been able to incorporate change by managing the product backlog effectively…

                                                 

                                                My company is enthusiastic about using Scrum and XP on future projects, however, I can’t quantify the benefits of using agile over traditional to customers.

                                                 

                                                The best we’ll have is an excellent case study, which is useful but it is the clear bottom-line quantification that is needed rather than customer and team testimonies.

                                                 

                                                Cheers,

                                                 

                                                Steve

                                                 


                                                From: Tim Marston [mailto:t.marston@...]
                                                Sent: 01 September 2004 11:04
                                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile

                                                 

                                                Steve,

                                                 

                                                    Has this first project been a success, which you are now able to proffer as evidence to the less enthusiastic areas?

                                                 

                                                Tim

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Garnett, Steve [mailto:steve.garnett@...]
                                                Sent: 01 September 2004 09:45
                                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile

                                                Mike,

                                                 

                                                I’ve been reading the thread on agile v Agile whilst trying to articulate and “sell” Agile within my company and to prospective customers. I have recently completed my first project as scrum master.

                                                 

                                                The way I have begun to see scrum mastering versus traditional project management is similar to the difference between transactional and transformational leadership, and similar in consequence between hierarchical/process organizations and flat-structured/cultural organizations.

                                                 

                                                It is by using “metaphors” such as these that I am finding some traction with the “unconverted hordes”.

                                                 

                                                The problem I’m having with “selling” Agile is that most of my customers think in a traditional way, the rationalism of Weber… This is leading the marketing team to sell Agile techniques using traditional language.

                                                 

                                                How can I articulate the difference that self-organization makes to a team versus command and control structures without evidence!

                                                 

                                                I am swiftly coming to the conclusion that the only way we will “sell” Agile is to do so by example. Until there is clear proof of its value, the dominant logic of the IT industry will be to load the front-end of projects with planning, and play the “cover my back” game with risks and issues logs.

                                                 

                                                I think the best way forward is to introduce Agile methods covertly, starting with the incremental introduction of XP development practices by the team and then over-laying it with Scrum once you’ve got enough stakeholders on board. There will always be some customers open to an Agile approach from the outset, but particularly in the UK these are few and far between.

                                                 

                                                The important thing is to maintain groups like this, and particularly the agile alliance to ensure there is a “pure” source somewhere!

                                                 

                                                Regards,

                                                 

                                                Steve  

                                                 


                                                From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
                                                Sent: 31 August 2004 20:27
                                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: !RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile

                                                 


                                                Ken/Daniel:

                                                Your postings reminded me of something I wrote a couple of years ago:

                                                "It troubles me that the _fundamental differences_ between traditional
                                                and agile processes are not highlighted, either by the creators
                                                and supporters of the Agile movement, or by traditional
                                                software development figure-heads."
                                                http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRevolution


                                                " ...Agile Software Development will be in the 2000's what
                                                Defined-Process Software Development was in the 1980's. Everyone
                                                will be in favor of it. Every manufacturer will promote his
                                                products as supporting it. Every manager will pay lip service
                                                to it. Every programmer will practice it (differently).
                                                And no one will know just what it is."
                                                http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRentschianThinking


                                                ..... unfortunately, "agile" is bound to go through that
                                                irreversible cycle of commercialization that tends to evaporate
                                                the meaning of valuable things as it has done with
                                                "structured programming", "functional programming",
                                                "object-oriented programming", "agent-technology", and now
                                                "service-oriented architecture".

                                                Just like everything else that our industry has managed to
                                                mangle, obfuscate, obscure, but simultaneously glamorize and
                                                idolize, "agile development", like any other wave, will be
                                                the prey of commercialization, opportunism, envy,
                                                silver-bulleting, .... and the rest of the socio-economic
                                                diseases of our time.

                                                Agile is dead, Long live Agile!

                                                - Mike

                                                (For some reason this discussion makes me think of the following poem
                                                ;-)

                                                Could Be

                                                I only sang
                                                because the lonely road was long;
                                                and now the road and I are gone
                                                but not the song.
                                                I only spoke
                                                the verse to pay for borrowed time
                                                and now the clock and I are broken
                                                but not the rhyme.
                                                Possibly,
                                                the self not being fundamental,
                                                eternity
                                                breathes only on the incidental.

                                                      -- Ernesto Galarza (1905-1984)

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Daniel Gackle [mailto:gackle@...]
                                                Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 12:10 PM
                                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile


                                                Ken,

                                                I agree. Reading those articles, I was astonished at how contentless
                                                they are.  It's impossible to figure out what they mean by "agile"
                                                because, IMHO, they don't mean anything by it. A precise translation
                                                might be "buzz buzz buzz".

                                                Perhaps this is an inevitable stage in the lifecycle of any movement
                                                that reaches a certain mass. If so, we can expect this wave of
                                                misunderstanding to continue. What matters is that enough of the core
                                                value manage to survive it. The key place to preserve this value is in
                                                our own individual and team practice.

                                                This relates to the conversation about "selling agile". The risk in
                                                selling agile is that only the word will be bought and exchanged, not
                                                the core. (For this we now have Exhibit A: CIO magazine.) This will make
                                                some people some money, but it will not bring what many of us would most
                                                like to see from Agile, which someone expressed to me recently as
                                                "making software projects less soul-destroying".

                                                You can bottle the bathwater, but not the baby.

                                                - Daniel


                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 1:34 am
                                                Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Digest Number 701

                                                There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to "agile"
                                                (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the meeting
                                                in Snowbird in 2001, Martin Fowler suggested that we name the thing
                                                "quackenpoof" rather than "agile" to discourage other people from
                                                cheaply using the name, as the have in this issue of CIO. "Oh, yes,
                                                goodness sakes, we are doing much better in my "100 Most Agile"
                                                organization... we now get the software out the door sometimes."

                                                I'd have been so much more pleased if one of these people had a clue
                                                about Agile rather than just the word agile. So, remember that when you
                                                discuss agile, if you are referring to the commercialization fad that
                                                will fade in about two years, use the small "a" agile. When you are
                                                referring to something that comforms to the Agile movement and the Agile
                                                manifesto, use the capital "A" Agile.

                                                Scrum on,
                                                Ken




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                                              • Deb
                                                What! Out there in the big world without us! Shocking. auntie Deb ... it mature and have a life, a real life, of its own.
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Sep 1, 2004
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  What! Out there in the big world without us!
                                                  Shocking.

                                                  auntie Deb

                                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ken Schwaber
                                                  <ken.schwaber@v...> wrote:
                                                  > I think our job is to keep the baby alive, help it grow, and watch
                                                  it mature and have a life, a real life, of its own.
                                                  > Ken
                                                • Mike Beedle
                                                  Ken: Well said, *true* Agile and Scrum practitioners will keep the flame burning -- even if the word is abused elsewhere, - Mike ... From: Ken Schwaber
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Sep 1, 2004
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Ken:

                                                    Well said, *true* Agile and Scrum practitioners will keep the
                                                    flame burning -- even if the word is abused elsewhere,

                                                    - Mike

                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
                                                    Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 9:27 AM
                                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: !RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile


                                                    I think our job is to keep the baby alive, help it grow, and
                                                    watch it mature and have a life, a real life, of its own.
                                                    Ken

                                                    >
                                                    > From: "Mike Beedle" <beedlem@...>
                                                    > Date: 2004/08/31 Tue PM 02:27:08 CDT
                                                    > To: <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > Subject: !RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Ken/Daniel:
                                                    >
                                                    > Your postings reminded me of something I wrote a couple of years ago:
                                                    >
                                                    > "It troubles me that the _fundamental differences_ between traditional

                                                    > and agile processes are not highlighted, either by the creators
                                                    > and supporters of the Agile movement, or by traditional
                                                    > software development figure-heads."
                                                    > http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRevolution
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > " ...Agile Software Development will be in the 2000's what
                                                    > Defined-Process Software Development was in the 1980's. Everyone
                                                    > will be in favor of it. Every manufacturer will promote his
                                                    > products as supporting it. Every manager will pay lip service
                                                    > to it. Every programmer will practice it (differently).
                                                    > And no one will know just what it is."
                                                    > http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRentschianThinking
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ..... unfortunately, "agile" is bound to go through that
                                                    > irreversible cycle of commercialization that tends to evaporate
                                                    > the meaning of valuable things as it has done with
                                                    > "structured programming", "functional programming",
                                                    > "object-oriented programming", "agent-technology", and now
                                                    > "service-oriented architecture".
                                                    >
                                                    > Just like everything else that our industry has managed to
                                                    > mangle, obfuscate, obscure, but simultaneously glamorize and
                                                    > idolize, "agile development", like any other wave, will be
                                                    > the prey of commercialization, opportunism, envy,
                                                    > silver-bulleting, .... and the rest of the socio-economic
                                                    > diseases of our time.
                                                    >
                                                    > Agile is dead, Long live Agile!
                                                    >
                                                    > - Mike
                                                    >
                                                    > (For some reason this discussion makes me think of the following poem
                                                    > ;-)
                                                    >
                                                    > Could Be
                                                    >
                                                    > I only sang
                                                    > because the lonely road was long;
                                                    > and now the road and I are gone
                                                    > but not the song.
                                                    > I only spoke
                                                    > the verse to pay for borrowed time
                                                    > and now the clock and I are broken
                                                    > but not the rhyme.
                                                    > Possibly,
                                                    > the self not being fundamental,
                                                    > eternity
                                                    > breathes only on the incidental.
                                                    >
                                                    > -- Ernesto Galarza (1905-1984)
                                                    >
                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > From: Daniel Gackle [mailto:gackle@...]
                                                    > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 12:10 PM
                                                    > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Ken,
                                                    >
                                                    > I agree. Reading those articles, I was astonished at how contentless
                                                    > they are. It's impossible to figure out what they mean by "agile"
                                                    > because, IMHO, they don't mean anything by it. A precise translation
                                                    > might be "buzz buzz buzz".
                                                    >
                                                    > Perhaps this is an inevitable stage in the lifecycle of any movement
                                                    > that reaches a certain mass. If so, we can expect this wave of
                                                    > misunderstanding to continue. What matters is that enough of the core
                                                    > value manage to survive it. The key place to preserve this value is in
                                                    > our own individual and team practice.
                                                    >
                                                    > This relates to the conversation about "selling agile". The risk in
                                                    > selling agile is that only the word will be bought and exchanged, not
                                                    > the core. (For this we now have Exhibit A: CIO magazine.) This will
                                                    make
                                                    > some people some money, but it will not bring what many of us would
                                                    most
                                                    > like to see from Agile, which someone expressed to me recently as
                                                    > "making software projects less soul-destroying".
                                                    >
                                                    > You can bottle the bathwater, but not the baby.
                                                    >
                                                    > - Daniel
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 1:34 am
                                                    > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Digest Number 701
                                                    >
                                                    > There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to "agile"
                                                    > (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the
                                                    meeting
                                                    > in Snowbird in 2001, Martin Fowler suggested that we name the thing
                                                    > "quackenpoof" rather than "agile" to discourage other people from
                                                    > cheaply using the name, as the have in this issue of CIO. "Oh, yes,
                                                    > goodness sakes, we are doing much better in my "100 Most Agile"
                                                    > organization... we now get the software out the door sometimes."
                                                    >
                                                    > I'd have been so much more pleased if one of these people had a clue
                                                    > about Agile rather than just the word agile. So, remember that when
                                                    you
                                                    > discuss agile, if you are referring to the commercialization fad that
                                                    > will fade in about two years, use the small "a" agile. When you are
                                                    > referring to something that comforms to the Agile movement and the
                                                    Agile
                                                    > manifesto, use the capital "A" Agile.
                                                    >
                                                    > Scrum on,
                                                    > Ken
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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                                                  • Doug Shimp
                                                    Hi Tim, ... Has anyone ever done this? Is the quantification for the traditional methods on any better ground as a basis for using in software development than
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Sep 1, 2004
                                                    • 0 Attachment

                                                      Hi Tim,

                                                       

                                                      >>  quantify the benefits of using agile over traditional to customers.

                                                       

                                                       Has anyone ever done this? Is the quantification for the traditional methods on any better ground as a basis for using in software development than Scrum or Agile?

                                                       

                                                      What has been measured

                                                      The traditional methods have been marginally (at best) successful in justifying their position quantitatively. They have tried to measure the business value derived from producing a system and mapping it to the methods involved. At best, they have made rough large grained measurements of the benefit but, they have not made a reliable mapping to the individual methods involved.

                                                       

                                                      What is interesting is that we can still use their argument…

                                                      Scrum/Agile practices can be considered as a subset of these traditional methods. Many of these traditional methods could be called the “IT Process of Everything”. We have found that these traditional methods are over complicated, create confusion and we spend far more energy tailoring them than using them. Scrum/Agile can be considered to focus on the minimal set of methods necessary to successfully achieve business objectives.

                                                       

                                                      How does Scrum help…

                                                      Scrum helps us focus on what our product needs. Scrum/Agile is not something new; rather it is a clear minimal set of methods that our industry has found to be useful in getting the job done. Scrum helps us focus on those methods that are needed to produce product within our given environment and helps us eliminate those methods that get in the way. Our industry has found that it is far easier to extend a body of knowledge than it is to reduce it to what is needed. Scrum helps us by starting with a minimal set. That’s what makes it beautiful, enticing and useful.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      _________________________________

                                                       

                                                      Douglas Shimp

                                                      Senior Consultant

                                                      doug_shimp@...

                                                      414.839.2933

                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: Garnett, Steve [mailto:steve.garnett@...]
                                                      Sent
                                                      : Wednesday, September 01, 2004 10:58 AM
                                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile

                                                       

                                                      Tim,

                                                       

                                                      Yes, everyone associated with the project believes it has been brilliant. The business are far more confident and happy with the functionality built, its been built to budget, and we’ve been able to incorporate change by managing the product backlog effectively…

                                                       

                                                      My company is enthusiastic about using Scrum and XP on future projects, however, I can’t quantify the benefits of using agile over traditional to customers.

                                                       

                                                      The best we’ll have is an excellent case study, which is useful but it is the clear bottom-line quantification that is needed rather than customer and team testimonies.

                                                       

                                                      Cheers,

                                                       

                                                      Steve

                                                       


                                                      From: Tim Marston [mailto:t.marston@...]
                                                      Sent: 01 September 2004 11:04
                                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile

                                                       

                                                      Steve,

                                                       

                                                          Has this first project been a success, which you are now able to proffer as evidence to the less enthusiastic areas?

                                                       

                                                      Tim

                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: Garnett, Steve [mailto:steve.garnett@...]
                                                      Sent: 01 September 2004 09:45
                                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile

                                                      Mike,

                                                       

                                                      I’ve been reading the thread on agile v Agile whilst trying to articulate and “sell” Agile within my company and to prospective customers. I have recently completed my first project as scrum master.

                                                       

                                                      The way I have begun to see scrum mastering versus traditional project management is similar to the difference between transactional and transformational leadership, and similar in consequence between hierarchical/process organizations and flat-structured/cultural organizations.

                                                       

                                                      It is by using “metaphors” such as these that I am finding some traction with the “unconverted hordes”.

                                                       

                                                      The problem I’m having with “selling” Agile is that most of my customers think in a traditional way, the rationalism of Weber… This is leading the marketing team to sell Agile techniques using traditional language.

                                                       

                                                      How can I articulate the difference that self-organization makes to a team versus command and control structures without evidence!

                                                       

                                                      I am swiftly coming to the conclusion that the only way we will “sell” Agile is to do so by example. Until there is clear proof of its value, the dominant logic of the IT industry will be to load the front-end of projects with planning, and play the “cover my back” game with risks and issues logs.

                                                       

                                                      I think the best way forward is to introduce Agile methods covertly, starting with the incremental introduction of XP development practices by the team and then over-laying it with Scrum once you’ve got enough stakeholders on board. There will always be some customers open to an Agile approach from the outset, but particularly in the UK these are few and far between.

                                                       

                                                      The important thing is to maintain groups like this, and particularly the agile alliance to ensure there is a “pure” source somewhere!

                                                       

                                                      Regards,

                                                       

                                                      Steve  

                                                       


                                                      From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
                                                      Sent: 31 August 2004 20:27
                                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: !RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile

                                                       


                                                      Ken/Daniel:

                                                      Your postings reminded me of something I wrote a couple of years ago:

                                                      "It troubles me that the _fundamental differences_ between traditional
                                                      and agile processes are not highlighted, either by the creators
                                                      and supporters of the Agile movement, or by traditional
                                                      software development figure-heads."
                                                      http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRevolution


                                                      " ...Agile Software Development will be in the 2000's what
                                                      Defined-Process Software Development was in the 1980's. Everyone
                                                      will be in favor of it. Every manufacturer will promote his
                                                      products as supporting it. Every manager will pay lip service
                                                      to it. Every programmer will practice it (differently).
                                                      And no one will know just what it is."
                                                      http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRentschianThinking


                                                      ..... unfortunately, "agile" is bound to go through that
                                                      irreversible cycle of commercialization that tends to evaporate
                                                      the meaning of valuable things as it has done with
                                                      "structured programming", "functional programming",
                                                      "object-oriented programming", "agent-technology", and now
                                                      "service-oriented architecture".

                                                      Just like everything else that our industry has managed to
                                                      mangle, obfuscate, obscure, but simultaneously glamorize and
                                                      idolize, "agile development", like any other wave, will be
                                                      the prey of commercialization, opportunism, envy,
                                                      silver-bulleting, .... and the rest of the socio-economic
                                                      diseases of our time.

                                                      Agile is dead, Long live Agile!

                                                      - Mike

                                                      (For some reason this discussion makes me think of the following poem
                                                      ;-)

                                                      Could Be

                                                      I only sang
                                                      because the lonely road was long;
                                                      and now the road and I are gone
                                                      but not the song.
                                                      I only spoke
                                                      the verse to pay for borrowed time
                                                      and now the clock and I are broken
                                                      but not the rhyme.
                                                      Possibly,
                                                      the self not being fundamental,
                                                      eternity
                                                      breathes only on the incidental.

                                                            -- Ernesto Galarza (1905-1984)

                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: Daniel Gackle [mailto:gackle@...]
                                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 12:10 PM
                                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile


                                                      Ken,

                                                      I agree. Reading those articles, I was astonished at how contentless
                                                      they are.  It's impossible to figure out what they mean by "agile"
                                                      because, IMHO, they don't mean anything by it. A precise translation
                                                      might be "buzz buzz buzz".

                                                      Perhaps this is an inevitable stage in the lifecycle of any movement
                                                      that reaches a certain mass. If so, we can expect this wave of
                                                      misunderstanding to continue. What matters is that enough of the core
                                                      value manage to survive it. The key place to preserve this value is in
                                                      our own individual and team practice.

                                                      This relates to the conversation about "selling agile". The risk in
                                                      selling agile is that only the word will be bought and exchanged, not
                                                      the core. (For this we now have Exhibit A: CIO magazine.) This will make
                                                      some people some money, but it will not bring what many of us would most
                                                      like to see from Agile, which someone expressed to me recently as
                                                      "making software projects less soul-destroying".

                                                      You can bottle the bathwater, but not the baby.

                                                      - Daniel


                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 1:34 am
                                                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Digest Number 701

                                                      There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to "agile"
                                                      (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the meeting
                                                      in Snowbird in 2001, Martin Fowler suggested that we name the thing
                                                      "quackenpoof" rather than "agile" to discourage other people from
                                                      cheaply using the name, as the have in this issue of CIO. "Oh, yes,
                                                      goodness sakes, we are doing much better in my "100 Most Agile"
                                                      organization... we now get the software out the door sometimes."

                                                      I'd have been so much more pleased if one of these people had a clue
                                                      about Agile rather than just the word agile. So, remember that when you
                                                      discuss agile, if you are referring to the commercialization fad that
                                                      will fade in about two years, use the small "a" agile. When you are
                                                      referring to something that comforms to the Agile movement and the Agile
                                                      manifesto, use the capital "A" Agile.

                                                      Scrum on,
                                                      Ken




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