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Re: Product management vs Product owner

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  • Roman
    Hi Sarath, This is a great discussion. My experience suggests that embracing Scrum and Scrum product ownership often requires organisational changes that
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 2, 2009
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      Hi Sarath,

      This is a great discussion. My experience suggests that embracing Scrum and Scrum product ownership often requires organisational changes that affect the people working as product marketers and product managers. It would be wrong to always equate a product manager with a product owner just like it would be wrong to equate the project manager role with the ScrumMaster. The product owner role in Scrum is a disruptive innovation for most organisations. Making it work requires some initial thought (and training) and subsequent inspect and adapt cycles.

      Best regards,
      Roman

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Sarath Kummamuru <kcsarath@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Inanc,
      > I agree with Roman's perspective on the definition of the product owner
      > >>Ken Schwaber's defines the product owner in the Scrum Guide as "the one
      > and only person responsible for managing the Product Backlog and ensuring
      > the value of the work the team performs. This person maintains the Product
      > Backlog and ensures that it is visible to everyone." This often includes
      > creating the product vision, grooming the product backlog, planning the
      > release, involving customers, users and other stakeholders, managing the
      > budget, preparing the product launch, attending the Scrum meetings, and
      > collaborating with the team. The product owner plays a crucial part not only
      > in bringing new products to life but also in managing the product
      > lifecycle.
      > >>>>
      >
      > But in most organizations, Product Management is more than just managing
      > the product back log and there is a need for the various product management
      > roles that are discussed in the article.
      >
      > But the important aspect about the Product owner* is that he/she forms
      > the single point of contact and decision for the team on the product vision,
      > prioritization*, etc. So *he/she needs to be part of the Product Management
      > team* and understand what the Product managers and other stake holders are
      > saying about customer need, *understand the needs and be able to provide a
      > vision to the team*.
      >
      > So both sets of roles are needed the ones on the product management side
      > and the *PO to be the funnel* of the vision to the team as visualized by the
      > Product Management Team.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Sarath.
      >
      > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Roman <roman.pichler@...>wrote:
      >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Inanc,
      > >
      > > I think it is important to recognise that the product owner is a new,
      > > multifaceted role that unites the authority and responsibility traditionally
      > > scattered across separate roles.
      > >
      > > Ken Schwaber's defines the product owner in the Scrum Guide as "the one and
      > > only person responsible for managing the Product Backlog and ensuring the
      > > value of the work the team performs. This person maintains the Product
      > > Backlog and ensures that it is visible to everyone." This often includes
      > > creating the product vision, grooming the product backlog, planning the
      > > release, involving customers, users and other stakeholders, managing the
      > > budget, preparing the product launch, attending the Scrum meetings, and
      > > collaborating with the team. The product owner plays a crucial part not only
      > > in bringing new products to life but also in managing the product lifecycle.
      > >
      > >
      > > I sum, the product owner often combines product marketing and product
      > > management duties. Having said that, being the product owner is no solo act.
      > > The product owner is part of the Scrum team and closely collaborates with
      > > its other members; the (development) team should spend up to 10% of its time
      > > to help he product owner groom the product backlog. Product ownership is
      > > hence a group effort in Scrum with the product owner being responsible for
      > > making sure that the necessary work is carried out.
      > >
      > > Best regards,
      > > Roman
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com<scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>,
      > > "Inanc Gumus" <inanc.gumus@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > In the following article the author talks about the product management
      > > role. The categories it applies.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > http://michael.hightechproductmanagement.com/2006/04/product_management_product_marketing.html
      > > >
      > > > I want to ask how these categories apply to Scrum, or to general agile
      > > practices like on-site customer? What categories intersects with the product
      > > owner role of Scrum?
      > > >
      > > > The author talks about product marketing manager and product manager
      > > roles. This puts them into a committee. But, there's a common thinking that
      > > there should only be one champion for the product. A committee doesn't work
      > > as efficient as the single champion.
      > > >
      > > > What do you think?
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Thanks,
      > Sarath.
      >
      > Quad One Technologies | Mobile: +91 98490 05620 | Off: +91 40 2335 0221 |
      > www.quadone.com
      >
    • Inanc Gumus
      Hello Roman, ... So, are you saying that the product owner is a bridge between product managers/marketers and developers? If it s that so, product owner is
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 2, 2009
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        Hello Roman,
        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman" <roman.pichler@...> wrote:
        > I think it is important to recognise that the product owner is a new, multifaceted role that unites the authority and responsibility traditionally scattered across separate roles.
        >

        So, are you saying that the product owner is a bridge between product managers/marketers and developers? If it's that so, product owner is just a feature prioritizer. My experience with Scrum and other agile practices show me that product owner is just a role, but is an important one. That, works *inside* marketing, product management and within developers. Collobrates with each teams from inside rather than just an outside prioritized messenger. It is an invention that tries to close the gap between the developers and the business.

        What do you think?
      • Roman Pichler
        Hi Inanc, I am saying that the Scrum product owner is a genuinely new role that does not easily map onto traditional roles. What we are doing in Scrum is
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 2, 2009
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          Hi Inanc,

          I am saying that the Scrum product owner is a genuinely new role that does not easily map onto traditional roles. What we are doing in Scrum is redefining the relationship between "the business" and "the techies" by asking the right people to form a closely-knit Scrum team. The product owner as the individual mostly concerned with target customers, customer needs and product features is part of this team, as you explained. I view a proxy product owner who is a go-between marketers and developers as an anti-pattern. Another anti-pattern is splitting the Scrum product owner role into an "agile product manager" and a "technical product owner" role (or a big and small "product owner").

          Best regards,
          Roman

          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Inanc Gumus" <inanc.gumus@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Roman,
          > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman" <roman.pichler@> wrote:
          > > I think it is important to recognise that the product owner is a new, multifaceted role that unites the authority and responsibility traditionally scattered across separate roles.
          > >
          >
          > So, are you saying that the product owner is a bridge between product managers/marketers and developers? If it's that so, product owner is just a feature prioritizer. My experience with Scrum and other agile practices show me that product owner is just a role, but is an important one. That, works *inside* marketing, product management and within developers. Collobrates with each teams from inside rather than just an outside prioritized messenger. It is an invention that tries to close the gap between the developers and the business.
          >
          > What do you think?
          >
        • gregc
          Inmac, To build upon what Roman and Sarath have already written, it is important to realize the Product Owner actually has a well defined role in a well
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 2, 2009
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            Inmac,

             

            To build upon what Roman and Sarath have already written, it is important to realize the Product Owner actually has a well defined role in a well defined process, Scrum.  Product Management and Product Marketing are not that well defined and thus the roles vary dramatically by company.  So you may see disconnects with what you read that a product manager should be doing and what you observe in your own company.

             

            But at the highest level, the Product Manager's role is to ensure the business success of the product. As the Scrum Team is responsible for achieving the Sprint Goal, the Product Manager is responsible for ensuring the product meets the business objectives.  If the product is not meeting its sales objectives, for example, it is the product managers responsibility to solve this problem, including evaluating pricing, business model, packaging (e.g. premium, basic, free versions,) messaging, product enhancements, service enhancements, sales training, competitive landscape, partnerships, etc.

             

            The Product Owner role, on the other hand, is really about representing the business side and working with engineering to optimize the software (or technology) delivery part of the entire product solution. 

             

            There is considerable overlap in the knowledge needed to do either job well. So it is often the logical choice for the product manager to assume the product owner role or the product owner to assume some responsibilities that would traditionally fall under product management. 

             

            As a business or product scales, it no longer is possible for one individual to perform both inbound and outbound product management.  Inbound being the listening side of understanding the customer needs and working with development.  Outbound being activities to communicate to the market the benefits of the product.  Outbound activities are therefore often carved off into a product marketing role. This works well because inbound people tend to be more detail oriented and like the technology and outbound people tend to be more big picture and sales oriented.  Decision authority usually still resides with either the inbound product manager, the outbound product marketing manager, or a senior product manager who owns the business strategy and who the inbound product manager and outbound product marketing manager report into. I have never seen it be a committee of product manager and product marketer as you suggest.  But I have seen this person need to report into a committee for authorization. Thus, they lead through influence, not authority.  But I think this is true for any Product Owner as well.  


            -greg

            280group


            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Pichler" <roman.pichler@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Inanc,
            >
            > I am saying that the Scrum product owner is a genuinely new role that does not easily map onto traditional roles. What we are doing in Scrum is redefining the relationship between "the business" and "the techies" by asking the right people to form a closely-knit Scrum team. The product owner as the individual mostly concerned with target customers, customer needs and product features is part of this team, as you explained. I view a proxy product owner who is a go-between marketers and developers as an anti-pattern. Another anti-pattern is splitting the Scrum product owner role into an "agile product manager" and a "technical product owner" role (or a big and small "product owner").
            >
            > Best regards,
            > Roman
            >
            > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Inanc Gumus" inanc.gumus@ wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Roman,
            > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman" <roman.pichler@> wrote:
            > > > I think it is important to recognise that the product owner is a new, multifaceted role that unites the authority and responsibility traditionally scattered across separate roles.
            > > >
            > >
            > > So, are you saying that the product owner is a bridge between product managers/marketers and developers? If it's that so, product owner is just a feature prioritizer. My experience with Scrum and other agile practices show me that product owner is just a role, but is an important one. That, works *inside* marketing, product management and within developers. Collobrates with each teams from inside rather than just an outside prioritized messenger. It is an invention that tries to close the gap between the developers and the business.
            > >
            > > What do you think?
            > >
            >
          • Amanda Abelove
            I m the product manager for a cash revenue product suite at a very small company. The product owner is the COO. I fill the role of the Product Owner, but I m
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 2, 2009
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              I'm the product manager for a cash revenue product suite at a very small company. The product owner is the COO. I fill the role of the Product Owner, but  I'm his proxy. I basically take his requests and break them down for implementation. There are additional requests from the bus dev, sales and account managers. I relate them to what the COO sets down and then put them in where they "fit".

              I have a true "product owner" role on the internal business systems we built.


              -Amanda

              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              310-237-6370
              Skype: amanda.abelove

              Scrum Club - A Scrum methodology user group
              @scrumclub, #scrumclub
              http://scrumclub.org

              Corporate Espionage - A tradable card game on entrepreneurship
              @corpespionage, #corpespionage
              http://masterofespionage.com
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


              On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 2:54 AM, Inanc Gumus <inanc.gumus@...> wrote:
               

              In the following article the author talks about the product management role. The categories it applies.

              http://michael.hightechproductmanagement.com/2006/04/product_management_product_marketing.html

              I want to ask how these categories apply to Scrum, or to general agile practices like on-site customer? What categories intersects with the product owner role of Scrum?

              The author talks about product marketing manager and product manager roles. This puts them into a committee. But, there's a common thinking that there should only be one champion for the product. A committee doesn't work as efficient as the single champion.

              What do you think?


            • Roman Pichler
              Hi Greg, The product owner *is* the person responsible for the product success. The role goes beyond your description as a representative of the business to
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 3, 2009
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                Hi Greg,

                The product owner *is* the person responsible for the product success. The role goes beyond your description as a representative of the business to development. The product owner is outward and inward facing, communicates with customers, users, and other stakeholders and works with the team. As I mentioned before, the product owner role is a genuinely new role and disruptive for most organisations, as it does not easily map onto existing roles and structures.

                If a product grows and the project has to be scaled, we introduce a product owner hierarchy with an overall or chief product owner at the top. A complex product owner hierarchy introduces a certain specialization of the individual product owner jobs. The chief product owner leads the overall development effort, coordinating with customers and other stakeholders. The lower-level product owners are more focused on their features or subsystems and work closely with the development teams. Ken Schwaber writes in his book "The Enterprise and Scrum:" "The Product Owner plans, composes, distributes, and tracks work from his or her level down. … The higher the level is, the harder the Product Owner's … job is. The responsibility of Product-level jobs usually requires someone with Vice President-level or Director-level title and authority."

                Best regards,
                Roman

                PS: You can find out more about product ownership in Scrum in my upcoming book "Agile Product Management with Scrum."

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "gregc" <greg@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Inmac,
                >
                >
                >
                > To build upon what Roman and Sarath have already written, it is
                > important to realize the Product Owner actually has a well defined role
                > in a well defined process, Scrum. Product Management and Product
                > Marketing are not that well defined and thus the roles vary dramatically
                > by company. So you may see disconnects with what you read that a
                > product manager should be doing and what you observe in your own
                > company.
                >
                >
                >
                > But at the highest level, the Product Manager's role is to ensure
                > the business success of the product. As the Scrum Team is responsible
                > for achieving the Sprint Goal, the Product Manager is responsible for
                > ensuring the product meets the business objectives. If the product is
                > not meeting its sales objectives, for example, it is the product
                > managers responsibility to solve this problem, including evaluating
                > pricing, business model, packaging (e.g. premium, basic, free versions,)
                > messaging, product enhancements, service enhancements, sales training,
                > competitive landscape, partnerships, etc.
                >
                >
                >
                > The Product Owner role, on the other hand, is really about representing
                > the business side and working with engineering to optimize the software
                > (or technology) delivery part of the entire product solution.
                >
                >
                >
                > There is considerable overlap in the knowledge needed to do either job
                > well. So it is often the logical choice for the product manager to
                > assume the product owner role or the product owner to assume some
                > responsibilities that would traditionally fall under product management.
                >
                >
                >
                > As a business or product scales, it no longer is possible for one
                > individual to perform both inbound and outbound product management.
                > Inbound being the listening side of understanding the customer needs and
                > working with development. Outbound being activities to communicate to
                > the market the benefits of the product. Outbound activities are
                > therefore often carved off into a product marketing role. This works
                > well because inbound people tend to be more detail oriented and like the
                > technology and outbound people tend to be more big picture and sales
                > oriented. Decision authority usually still resides with either the
                > inbound product manager, the outbound product marketing manager, or a
                > senior product manager who owns the business strategy and who the
                > inbound product manager and outbound product marketing manager report
                > into. I have never seen it be a committee of product manager and product
                > marketer as you suggest. But I have seen this person need to report
                > into a committee for authorization. Thus, they lead through influence,
                > not authority. But I think this is true for any Product Owner as well.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -greg
                >
                > 280group
                >
                >
                > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Pichler"
                > <roman.pichler@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Inanc,
                > >
                > > I am saying that the Scrum product owner is a genuinely new role that
                > does not easily map onto traditional roles. What we are doing in Scrum
                > is redefining the relationship between "the business" and "the techies"
                > by asking the right people to form a closely-knit Scrum team. The
                > product owner as the individual mostly concerned with target customers,
                > customer needs and product features is part of this team, as you
                > explained. I view a proxy product owner who is a go-between marketers
                > and developers as an anti-pattern. Another anti-pattern is splitting the
                > Scrum product owner role into an "agile product manager" and a
                > "technical product owner" role (or a big and small "product owner").
                > >
                > > Best regards,
                > > Roman
                > >
                > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Inanc Gumus" inanc.gumus@
                > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hello Roman,
                > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman" <roman.pichler@>
                > wrote:
                > > > > I think it is important to recognise that the product owner is a
                > new, multifaceted role that unites the authority and responsibility
                > traditionally scattered across separate roles.
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > So, are you saying that the product owner is a bridge between
                > product managers/marketers and developers? If it's that so, product
                > owner is just a feature prioritizer. My experience with Scrum and other
                > agile practices show me that product owner is just a role, but is an
                > important one. That, works *inside* marketing, product management and
                > within developers. Collobrates with each teams from inside rather than
                > just an outside prioritized messenger. It is an invention that tries to
                > close the gap between the developers and the business.
                > > >
                > > > What do you think?
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • srinivas chillara
                Roman, I read one of the chapters of your book (posted on the Mike Cohn series site) with great interest. I agree with all that you say below.   However I
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 4, 2009
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                  Roman,
                  I read one of the chapters of your book (posted on the Mike Cohn series site) with great interest. I agree with all that you say below.
                   
                  However I worry about the (almost certainly) un-intended side-effect:
                   
                  Such a powerful PO might very well be the person who compromises the effectiveness of the team because of
                  1. PO changing priorities and/or adding features mid-sprint
                  2. Over-ruling the rules of Scrum and the Scrum-Master... who can stand up to the director, when the pressure is high?
                   
                  What has is your experience/opinion/solution?
                   
                  cheers
                  Srinivas
                   


                  --- On Wed, 4/11/09, Roman Pichler <roman.pichler@...> wrote:

                  From: Roman Pichler <roman.pichler@...>
                  Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Product management vs Product owner
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, 4 November, 2009, 1:25 PM

                   
                  Hi Greg,

                  The product owner *is* the person responsible for the product success. The role goes beyond your description as a representative of the business to development. The product owner is outward and inward facing, communicates with customers, users, and other stakeholders and works with the team. As I mentioned before, the product owner role is a genuinely new role and disruptive for most organisations, as it does not easily map onto existing roles and structures.

                  If a product grows and the project has to be scaled, we introduce a product owner hierarchy with an overall or chief product owner at the top. A complex product owner hierarchy introduces a certain specialization of the individual product owner jobs. The chief product owner leads the overall development effort, coordinating with customers and other stakeholders. The lower-level product owners are more focused on their features or subsystems and work closely with the development teams. Ken Schwaber writes in his book "The Enterprise and Scrum:" "The Product Owner plans, composes, distributes, and tracks work from his or her level down. … The higher the level is, the harder the Product Owner's … job is. The responsibility of Product-level jobs usually requires someone with Vice President-level or Director-level title and authority."

                  Best regards,
                  Roman

                  PS: You can find out more about product ownership in Scrum in my upcoming book "Agile Product Management with Scrum."

                  --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, "gregc" <greg@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Inmac,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To build upon what Roman and Sarath have already written, it is
                  > important to realize the Product Owner actually has a well defined role
                  > in a well defined process, Scrum. Product Management and Product
                  > Marketing are not that well defined and thus the roles vary dramatically
                  > by company. So you may see disconnects with what you read that a
                  > product manager should be doing and what you observe in your own
                  > company.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > But at the highest level, the Product Manager's role is to ensure
                  > the business success of the product. As the Scrum Team is responsible
                  > for achieving the Sprint Goal, the Product Manager is responsible for
                  > ensuring the product meets the business objectives. If the product is
                  > not meeting its sales objectives, for example, it is the product
                  > managers responsibility to solve this problem, including evaluating
                  > pricing, business model, packaging (e.g. premium, basic, free versions,)
                  > messaging, product enhancements, service enhancements, sales training,
                  > competitive landscape, partnerships, etc.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The Product Owner role, on the other hand, is really about representing
                  > the business side and working with engineering to optimize the software
                  > (or technology) delivery part of the entire product solution.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > There is considerable overlap in the knowledge needed to do either job
                  > well. So it is often the logical choice for the product manager to
                  > assume the product owner role or the product owner to assume some
                  > responsibilities that would traditionally fall under product management.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > As a business or product scales, it no longer is possible for one
                  > individual to perform both inbound and outbound product management.
                  > Inbound being the listening side of understanding the customer needs and
                  > working with development. Outbound being activities to communicate to
                  > the market the benefits of the product. Outbound activities are
                  > therefore often carved off into a product marketing role. This works
                  > well because inbound people tend to be more detail oriented and like the
                  > technology and outbound people tend to be more big picture and sales
                  > oriented. Decision authority usually still resides with either the
                  > inbound product manager, the outbound product marketing manager, or a
                  > senior product manager who owns the business strategy and who the
                  > inbound product manager and outbound product marketing manager report
                  > into. I have never seen it be a committee of product manager and product
                  > marketer as you suggest. But I have seen this person need to report
                  > into a committee for authorization. Thus, they lead through influence,
                  > not authority. But I think this is true for any Product Owner as well.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -greg
                  >
                  > 280group
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, "Roman Pichler"
                  > <roman.pichler@ > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Inanc,
                  > >
                  > > I am saying that the Scrum product owner is a genuinely new role that
                  > does not easily map onto traditional roles. What we are doing in Scrum
                  > is redefining the relationship between "the business" and "the techies"
                  > by asking the right people to form a closely-knit Scrum team. The
                  > product owner as the individual mostly concerned with target customers,
                  > customer needs and product features is part of this team, as you
                  > explained. I view a proxy product owner who is a go-between marketers
                  > and developers as an anti-pattern. Another anti-pattern is splitting the
                  > Scrum product owner role into an "agile product manager" and a
                  > "technical product owner" role (or a big and small "product owner").
                  > >
                  > > Best regards,
                  > > Roman
                  > >
                  > > --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, "Inanc Gumus" inanc.gumus@
                  > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hello Roman,
                  > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, "Roman" <roman.pichler@ >
                  > wrote:
                  > > > > I think it is important to recognise that the product owner is a
                  > new, multifaceted role that unites the authority and responsibility
                  > traditionally scattered across separate roles.
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > So, are you saying that the product owner is a bridge between
                  > product managers/marketers and developers? If it's that so, product
                  > owner is just a feature prioritizer. My experience with Scrum and other
                  > agile practices show me that product owner is just a role, but is an
                  > important one. That, works *inside* marketing, product management and
                  > within developers. Collobrates with each teams from inside rather than
                  > just an outside prioritized messenger. It is an invention that tries to
                  > close the gap between the developers and the business.
                  > > >
                  > > > What do you think?
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >



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                • Roman Pichler
                  Hi Srinivas, Thanks for the feedback. My experience suggests that many companies struggle to empower their product owners rather than the product owners
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 4, 2009
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                    Hi Srinivas,

                    Thanks for the feedback. My experience suggests that many companies struggle to empower their product owners rather than the product owners becoming too powerful. As we all know, Scrum is based on collaboration and trust. To work well, Scrum requires a strong but cooperative product owner, a team that is empowered and committed, and a ScrumMaster who looks after the process and facilitates collaboration. Filled properly, the three roles balance each other nicely.

                    Of course I have seen product owners trying to bend the rules, pressurising teams and compromising the process. If such a case, the ScrumMaster has to show strength and courage. If that's not enough then a senior Scrum sponsor who can act as an escalation partner comes in handy.

                    Best regards,
                    Roman


                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, srinivas chillara <ceezone@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Roman,
                    > I read one of the chapters of your book (posted on the Mike Cohn series site) with great interest. I agree with all that you say below.
                    >  
                    > However I worry about the (almost certainly) un-intended side-effect:
                    >  
                    > Such a powerful PO might very well be the person who compromises the effectiveness of the team because of
                    > 1. PO changing priorities and/or adding features mid-sprint
                    > 2. Over-ruling the rules of Scrum and the Scrum-Master... who can stand up to the director, when the pressure is high?
                    >  
                    > What has is your experience/opinion/solution?
                    >  
                    > cheers
                    > Srinivas
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    > --- On Wed, 4/11/09, Roman Pichler <roman.pichler@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Roman Pichler <roman.pichler@...>
                    > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Product management vs Product owner
                    > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Wednesday, 4 November, 2009, 1:25 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Greg,
                    >
                    > The product owner *is* the person responsible for the product success. The role goes beyond your description as a representative of the business to development. The product owner is outward and inward facing, communicates with customers, users, and other stakeholders and works with the team. As I mentioned before, the product owner role is a genuinely new role and disruptive for most organisations, as it does not easily map onto existing roles and structures.
                    >
                    > If a product grows and the project has to be scaled, we introduce a product owner hierarchy with an overall or chief product owner at the top. A complex product owner hierarchy introduces a certain specialization of the individual product owner jobs. The chief product owner leads the overall development effort, coordinating with customers and other stakeholders. The lower-level product owners are more focused on their features or subsystems and work closely with the development teams. Ken Schwaber writes in his book "The Enterprise and Scrum:" "The Product Owner plans, composes, distributes, and tracks work from his or her level down. … The higher the level is, the harder the Product Owner's … job is. The responsibility of Product-level jobs usually requires someone with Vice President-level or Director-level title and authority."
                    >
                    > Best regards,
                    > Roman
                    >
                    > PS: You can find out more about product ownership in Scrum in my upcoming book "Agile Product Management with Scrum."
                    >
                    > --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, "gregc" <greg@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Inmac,
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > To build upon what Roman and Sarath have already written, it is
                    > > important to realize the Product Owner actually has a well defined role
                    > > in a well defined process, Scrum. Product Management and Product
                    > > Marketing are not that well defined and thus the roles vary dramatically
                    > > by company. So you may see disconnects with what you read that a
                    > > product manager should be doing and what you observe in your own
                    > > company.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > But at the highest level, the Product Manager's role is to ensure
                    > > the business success of the product. As the Scrum Team is responsible
                    > > for achieving the Sprint Goal, the Product Manager is responsible for
                    > > ensuring the product meets the business objectives. If the product is
                    > > not meeting its sales objectives, for example, it is the product
                    > > managers responsibility to solve this problem, including evaluating
                    > > pricing, business model, packaging (e.g. premium, basic, free versions,)
                    > > messaging, product enhancements, service enhancements, sales training,
                    > > competitive landscape, partnerships, etc.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The Product Owner role, on the other hand, is really about representing
                    > > the business side and working with engineering to optimize the software
                    > > (or technology) delivery part of the entire product solution.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > There is considerable overlap in the knowledge needed to do either job
                    > > well. So it is often the logical choice for the product manager to
                    > > assume the product owner role or the product owner to assume some
                    > > responsibilities that would traditionally fall under product management.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > As a business or product scales, it no longer is possible for one
                    > > individual to perform both inbound and outbound product management.
                    > > Inbound being the listening side of understanding the customer needs and
                    > > working with development. Outbound being activities to communicate to
                    > > the market the benefits of the product. Outbound activities are
                    > > therefore often carved off into a product marketing role. This works
                    > > well because inbound people tend to be more detail oriented and like the
                    > > technology and outbound people tend to be more big picture and sales
                    > > oriented. Decision authority usually still resides with either the
                    > > inbound product manager, the outbound product marketing manager, or a
                    > > senior product manager who owns the business strategy and who the
                    > > inbound product manager and outbound product marketing manager report
                    > > into. I have never seen it be a committee of product manager and product
                    > > marketer as you suggest. But I have seen this person need to report
                    > > into a committee for authorization. Thus, they lead through influence,
                    > > not authority. But I think this is true for any Product Owner as well.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -greg
                    > >
                    > > 280group
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, "Roman Pichler"
                    > > <roman.pichler@ > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi Inanc,
                    > > >
                    > > > I am saying that the Scrum product owner is a genuinely new role that
                    > > does not easily map onto traditional roles. What we are doing in Scrum
                    > > is redefining the relationship between "the business" and "the techies"
                    > > by asking the right people to form a closely-knit Scrum team. The
                    > > product owner as the individual mostly concerned with target customers,
                    > > customer needs and product features is part of this team, as you
                    > > explained. I view a proxy product owner who is a go-between marketers
                    > > and developers as an anti-pattern. Another anti-pattern is splitting the
                    > > Scrum product owner role into an "agile product manager" and a
                    > > "technical product owner" role (or a big and small "product owner").
                    > > >
                    > > > Best regards,
                    > > > Roman
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, "Inanc Gumus" inanc.gumus@
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hello Roman,
                    > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, "Roman" <roman.pichler@ >
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > > > I think it is important to recognise that the product owner is a
                    > > new, multifaceted role that unites the authority and responsibility
                    > > traditionally scattered across separate roles.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So, are you saying that the product owner is a bridge between
                    > > product managers/marketers and developers? If it's that so, product
                    > > owner is just a feature prioritizer. My experience with Scrum and other
                    > > agile practices show me that product owner is just a role, but is an
                    > > important one. That, works *inside* marketing, product management and
                    > > within developers. Collobrates with each teams from inside rather than
                    > > just an outside prioritized messenger. It is an invention that tries to
                    > > close the gap between the developers and the business.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > What do you think?
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! India has a new look. Take a sneak peek http://in.yahoo.com/trynew
                    >
                  • srinivas chillara
                    Thanks Roman.... oh yes, many groups struggle to empower the PO, very true. cheers Srinivas ... From: Roman Pichler Subject:
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 4, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thanks Roman....
                      oh yes, many groups struggle to empower the PO, very true.
                      cheers
                      Srinivas

                      --- On Wed, 4/11/09, Roman Pichler <roman.pichler@...> wrote:

                      From: Roman Pichler <roman.pichler@...>
                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Product management vs Product owner
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, 4 November, 2009, 9:49 PM

                       
                      Hi Srinivas,

                      Thanks for the feedback. My experience suggests that many companies struggle to empower their product owners rather than the product owners becoming too powerful. As we all know, Scrum is based on collaboration and trust. To work well, Scrum requires a strong but cooperative product owner, a team that is empowered and committed, and a ScrumMaster who looks after the process and facilitates collaboration. Filled properly, the three roles balance each other nicely.

                      Of course I have seen product owners trying to bend the rules, pressurising teams and compromising the process. If such a case, the ScrumMaster has to show strength and courage. If that's not enough then a senior Scrum sponsor who can act as an escalation partner comes in handy.

                      Best regards,
                      Roman

                      --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, srinivas chillara <ceezone@... > wrote:
                      >
                      > Roman,
                      > I read one of the chapters of your book (posted on the Mike Cohn series site) with great interest. I agree with all that you say below.
                      >  
                      > However I worry about the (almost certainly) un-intended side-effect:
                      >  
                      > Such a powerful PO might very well be the person who compromises the effectiveness of the team because of
                      > 1. PO changing priorities and/or adding features mid-sprint
                      > 2. Over-ruling the rules of Scrum and the Scrum-Master. .. who can stand up to the director, when the pressure is high?
                      >  
                      > What has is your experience/opinion/ solution?
                      >  
                      > cheers
                      > Srinivas
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > --- On Wed, 4/11/09, Roman Pichler <roman.pichler@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Roman Pichler <roman.pichler@ ...>
                      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Product management vs Product owner
                      > To: scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Date: Wednesday, 4 November, 2009, 1:25 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Greg,
                      >
                      > The product owner *is* the person responsible for the product success. The role goes beyond your description as a representative of the business to development. The product owner is outward and inward facing, communicates with customers, users, and other stakeholders and works with the team. As I mentioned before, the product owner role is a genuinely new role and disruptive for most organisations, as it does not easily map onto existing roles and structures.
                      >
                      > If a product grows and the project has to be scaled, we introduce a product owner hierarchy with an overall or chief product owner at the top. A complex product owner hierarchy introduces a certain specialization of the individual product owner jobs. The chief product owner leads the overall development effort, coordinating with customers and other stakeholders. The lower-level product owners are more focused on their features or subsystems and work closely with the development teams. Ken Schwaber writes in his book "The Enterprise and Scrum:" "The Product Owner plans, composes, distributes, and tracks work from his or her level down. … The higher the level is, the harder the Product Owner's … job is. The responsibility of Product-level jobs usually requires someone with Vice President-level or Director-level title and authority."
                      >
                      > Best regards,
                      > Roman
                      >
                      > PS: You can find out more about product ownership in Scrum in my upcoming book "Agile Product Management with Scrum."
                      >
                      > --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, "gregc" <greg@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Inmac,
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > To build upon what Roman and Sarath have already written, it is
                      > > important to realize the Product Owner actually has a well defined role
                      > > in a well defined process, Scrum. Product Management and Product
                      > > Marketing are not that well defined and thus the roles vary dramatically
                      > > by company. So you may see disconnects with what you read that a
                      > > product manager should be doing and what you observe in your own
                      > > company.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > But at the highest level, the Product Manager's role is to ensure
                      > > the business success of the product. As the Scrum Team is responsible
                      > > for achieving the Sprint Goal, the Product Manager is responsible for
                      > > ensuring the product meets the business objectives. If the product is
                      > > not meeting its sales objectives, for example, it is the product
                      > > managers responsibility to solve this problem, including evaluating
                      > > pricing, business model, packaging (e.g. premium, basic, free versions,)
                      > > messaging, product enhancements, service enhancements, sales training,
                      > > competitive landscape, partnerships, etc.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The Product Owner role, on the other hand, is really about representing
                      > > the business side and working with engineering to optimize the software
                      > > (or technology) delivery part of the entire product solution.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > There is considerable overlap in the knowledge needed to do either job
                      > > well. So it is often the logical choice for the product manager to
                      > > assume the product owner role or the product owner to assume some
                      > > responsibilities that would traditionally fall under product management.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > As a business or product scales, it no longer is possible for one
                      > > individual to perform both inbound and outbound product management.
                      > > Inbound being the listening side of understanding the customer needs and
                      > > working with development. Outbound being activities to communicate to
                      > > the market the benefits of the product. Outbound activities are
                      > > therefore often carved off into a product marketing role. This works
                      > > well because inbound people tend to be more detail oriented and like the
                      > > technology and outbound people tend to be more big picture and sales
                      > > oriented. Decision authority usually still resides with either the
                      > > inbound product manager, the outbound product marketing manager, or a
                      > > senior product manager who owns the business strategy and who the
                      > > inbound product manager and outbound product marketing manager report
                      > > into. I have never seen it be a committee of product manager and product
                      > > marketer as you suggest. But I have seen this person need to report
                      > > into a committee for authorization. Thus, they lead through influence,
                      > > not authority. But I think this is true for any Product Owner as well.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -greg
                      > >
                      > > 280group
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, "Roman Pichler"
                      > > <roman.pichler@ > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Inanc,
                      > > >
                      > > > I am saying that the Scrum product owner is a genuinely new role that
                      > > does not easily map onto traditional roles. What we are doing in Scrum
                      > > is redefining the relationship between "the business" and "the techies"
                      > > by asking the right people to form a closely-knit Scrum team. The
                      > > product owner as the individual mostly concerned with target customers,
                      > > customer needs and product features is part of this team, as you
                      > > explained. I view a proxy product owner who is a go-between marketers
                      > > and developers as an anti-pattern. Another anti-pattern is splitting the
                      > > Scrum product owner role into an "agile product manager" and a
                      > > "technical product owner" role (or a big and small "product owner").
                      > > >
                      > > > Best regards,
                      > > > Roman
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, "Inanc Gumus" inanc.gumus@
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hello Roman,
                      > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, "Roman" <roman.pichler@ >
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > > > I think it is important to recognise that the product owner is a
                      > > new, multifaceted role that unites the authority and responsibility
                      > > traditionally scattered across separate roles.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > So, are you saying that the product owner is a bridge between
                      > > product managers/marketers and developers? If it's that so, product
                      > > owner is just a feature prioritizer. My experience with Scrum and other
                      > > agile practices show me that product owner is just a role, but is an
                      > > important one. That, works *inside* marketing, product management and
                      > > within developers. Collobrates with each teams from inside rather than
                      > > just an outside prioritized messenger. It is an invention that tries to
                      > > close the gap between the developers and the business.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > What do you think?
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! India has a new look. Take a sneak peek http://in.yahoo. com/trynew
                      >



                      The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage.
                    • gregc
                      Roman, I was speaking with a well known scrum expert today about this topic, and he agrees with you that the PO is the person responsible for the business
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 5, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Roman,

                        I was speaking with a well known scrum expert today about this topic, and he agrees with you that the PO is the person responsible for the business success of the product. We even discussed that profit and loss responsibility should sit with the PO. So I consider you to be in very good company. But I have to admit, I am just not seeing that Scrum formally says this.

                        Although I think the PO role might be evolving to assume the broader responsibilities of business success that you describe, I do not find support in the literature to suggest that Scrum assigns this level of responsibility to the PO. In particular, when I review the Scrum Guide on the Scrum Alliance site, it states "The Product Owner is the one and only person responsible for managing the Product Backlog and ensuring the value of the work the Team performs."

                        Thus my point, Scrum empowers the PO with a single lever to ensure business success of the product, which is deciding the features in the product. I am not saying that a PO cannot or may not have broader responsibility. But in the way I read it, Scrum does not prescribe further responsibility to the PO beyond optimizing development to ensure business success. The Scrum Guide further adds: "For commercial development, the Product Owner may be the product manager." In other words, the PO may be a product manager and therefore may have additional product management responsibilities such as pricing, packaging, channel, buy/build/partner decisions, etc. But the more "other" responsibilities we pile on, the more the PO starts sounding like a product manager.

                        Another way to approach it is to ask ourselves at what point is a PO no longer a PO and the team therefore no longer doing scrum?

                        1. If a PO does not conduct win/loss analysis, would you still call them a PO and would the team still be doing scrum?

                        2. If a PO does not develop a roadmap but maintains a visible, prioritized product backlog, would you still call them a PO and would the team still be doing Scrum?

                        3. If the PO maintains a roadmap and develops all outbound messaging and sales training for the product, but a business analyst maintains the product backlog and the Scrum Master decides what is in the product, would you still call the PO a PO and would the team still be doing Scrum?

                        For me, the answer is yes, yes, and no.

                        There are many good practices PO's can adopt to be more successful in their role, and most if not all strike me as classic product management tasks. And from the couple of chapters of your book that I have seen, I know you have provided an excellent treatment on these topics and a major contribution to the field. But as I wrote at the top, I am just not seeing that Scrum formally says the PO owns these responsibilities.


                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Pichler" <roman.pichler@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Greg,
                        >
                        > The product owner *is* the person responsible for the product success. The role goes beyond your description as a representative of the business to development. The product owner is outward and inward facing, communicates with customers, users, and other stakeholders and works with the team. As I mentioned before, the product owner role is a genuinely new role and disruptive for most organisations, as it does not easily map onto existing roles and structures.
                        >
                        > If a product grows and the project has to be scaled, we introduce a product owner hierarchy with an overall or chief product owner at the top. A complex product owner hierarchy introduces a certain specialization of the individual product owner jobs. The chief product owner leads the overall development effort, coordinating with customers and other stakeholders. The lower-level product owners are more focused on their features or subsystems and work closely with the development teams. Ken Schwaber writes in his book "The Enterprise and Scrum:" "The Product Owner plans, composes, distributes, and tracks work from his or her level down. … The higher the level is, the harder the Product Owner's … job is. The responsibility of Product-level jobs usually requires someone with Vice President-level or Director-level title and authority."
                        >
                        > Best regards,
                        > Roman
                        >
                        > PS: You can find out more about product ownership in Scrum in my upcoming book "Agile Product Management with Scrum."
                        >
                        > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "gregc" <greg@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Inmac,
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > To build upon what Roman and Sarath have already written, it is
                        > > important to realize the Product Owner actually has a well defined role
                        > > in a well defined process, Scrum. Product Management and Product
                        > > Marketing are not that well defined and thus the roles vary dramatically
                        > > by company. So you may see disconnects with what you read that a
                        > > product manager should be doing and what you observe in your own
                        > > company.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > But at the highest level, the Product Manager's role is to ensure
                        > > the business success of the product. As the Scrum Team is responsible
                        > > for achieving the Sprint Goal, the Product Manager is responsible for
                        > > ensuring the product meets the business objectives. If the product is
                        > > not meeting its sales objectives, for example, it is the product
                        > > managers responsibility to solve this problem, including evaluating
                        > > pricing, business model, packaging (e.g. premium, basic, free versions,)
                        > > messaging, product enhancements, service enhancements, sales training,
                        > > competitive landscape, partnerships, etc.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The Product Owner role, on the other hand, is really about representing
                        > > the business side and working with engineering to optimize the software
                        > > (or technology) delivery part of the entire product solution.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > There is considerable overlap in the knowledge needed to do either job
                        > > well. So it is often the logical choice for the product manager to
                        > > assume the product owner role or the product owner to assume some
                        > > responsibilities that would traditionally fall under product management.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > As a business or product scales, it no longer is possible for one
                        > > individual to perform both inbound and outbound product management.
                        > > Inbound being the listening side of understanding the customer needs and
                        > > working with development. Outbound being activities to communicate to
                        > > the market the benefits of the product. Outbound activities are
                        > > therefore often carved off into a product marketing role. This works
                        > > well because inbound people tend to be more detail oriented and like the
                        > > technology and outbound people tend to be more big picture and sales
                        > > oriented. Decision authority usually still resides with either the
                        > > inbound product manager, the outbound product marketing manager, or a
                        > > senior product manager who owns the business strategy and who the
                        > > inbound product manager and outbound product marketing manager report
                        > > into. I have never seen it be a committee of product manager and product
                        > > marketer as you suggest. But I have seen this person need to report
                        > > into a committee for authorization. Thus, they lead through influence,
                        > > not authority. But I think this is true for any Product Owner as well.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -greg
                        > >
                        > > 280group
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Pichler"
                        > > <roman.pichler@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hi Inanc,
                        > > >
                        > > > I am saying that the Scrum product owner is a genuinely new role that
                        > > does not easily map onto traditional roles. What we are doing in Scrum
                        > > is redefining the relationship between "the business" and "the techies"
                        > > by asking the right people to form a closely-knit Scrum team. The
                        > > product owner as the individual mostly concerned with target customers,
                        > > customer needs and product features is part of this team, as you
                        > > explained. I view a proxy product owner who is a go-between marketers
                        > > and developers as an anti-pattern. Another anti-pattern is splitting the
                        > > Scrum product owner role into an "agile product manager" and a
                        > > "technical product owner" role (or a big and small "product owner").
                        > > >
                        > > > Best regards,
                        > > > Roman
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Inanc Gumus" inanc.gumus@
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hello Roman,
                        > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman" <roman.pichler@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > > > I think it is important to recognise that the product owner is a
                        > > new, multifaceted role that unites the authority and responsibility
                        > > traditionally scattered across separate roles.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > So, are you saying that the product owner is a bridge between
                        > > product managers/marketers and developers? If it's that so, product
                        > > owner is just a feature prioritizer. My experience with Scrum and other
                        > > agile practices show me that product owner is just a role, but is an
                        > > important one. That, works *inside* marketing, product management and
                        > > within developers. Collobrates with each teams from inside rather than
                        > > just an outside prioritized messenger. It is an invention that tries to
                        > > close the gap between the developers and the business.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > What do you think?
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Oliver Condurache
                        Hello Gentle people, I am not sure if scrum is explaining enough the distinction between roles and persons, as a person can take a role or multiple scrum
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 5, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Gentle people,

                          I am not sure if scrum is explaining enough the distinction between
                          roles and persons, as a person can take a role or multiple scrum roles
                          (for example in a small organization).
                          The role of the Product Owner ca be taken sometimes by the Scum Master
                          (scrum guide excerpt "The Scrum Master teaches the Product Owner how
                          to do his or her job. Product Owners are expected to know how to
                          manage to optimize value using Scrum. If they don’t, we hold the Scrum
                          Master accountable.").

                          (I notice scrum alliance does not recommend the scrum master to take
                          the role of a team member.)

                          From my experience the role of PO can be taken by the marketing
                          manager, commercial manager, customer, a group of senior users.

                          Kind Regards,
                          Oliver


                          Many roles can be embodied on various persons.
                          On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:37 AM, gregc <greg@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Roman,
                          >
                          > I was speaking with a well known scrum expert today about this topic, and he agrees with you that the PO is the person responsible for the business success of the product. We even discussed that profit and loss responsibility should sit with the PO. So I consider you to be in very good company. But I have to admit, I am just not seeing that Scrum formally says this.
                          >
                          > Although I think the PO role might be evolving to assume the broader responsibilities of business success that you describe, I do not find support in the literature to suggest that Scrum assigns this level of responsibility to the PO. In particular, when I review the Scrum Guide on the Scrum Alliance site, it states "The Product Owner is the one and only person responsible for managing the Product Backlog and ensuring the value of the work the Team performs."
                          >
                          > Thus my point, Scrum empowers the PO with a single lever to ensure business success of the product, which is deciding the features in the product. I am not saying that a PO cannot or may not have broader responsibility. But in the way I read it, Scrum does not prescribe further responsibility to the PO beyond optimizing development to ensure business success. The Scrum Guide further adds: "For commercial development, the Product Owner may be the product manager." In other words, the PO may be a product manager and therefore may have additional product management responsibilities such as pricing, packaging, channel, buy/build/partner decisions, etc. But the more "other" responsibilities we pile on, the more the PO starts sounding like a product manager.
                          >
                          > Another way to approach it is to ask ourselves at what point is a PO no longer a PO and the team therefore no longer doing scrum?
                          >
                          > 1. If a PO does not conduct win/loss analysis, would you still call them a PO and would the team still be doing scrum?
                          >
                          > 2. If a PO does not develop a roadmap but maintains a visible, prioritized product backlog, would you still call them a PO and would the team still be doing Scrum?
                          >
                          > 3. If the PO maintains a roadmap and develops all outbound messaging and sales training for the product, but a business analyst maintains the product backlog and the Scrum Master decides what is in the product, would you still call the PO a PO and would the team still be doing Scrum?
                          >
                          > For me, the answer is yes, yes, and no.
                          >
                          > There are many good practices PO's can adopt to be more successful in their role, and most if not all strike me as classic product management tasks. And from the couple of chapters of your book that I have seen, I know you have provided an excellent treatment on these topics and a major contribution to the field. But as I wrote at the top, I am just not seeing that Scrum formally says the PO owns these responsibilities.
                          >
                          > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Pichler" <roman.pichler@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Greg,
                          > >
                          > > The product owner *is* the person responsible for the product success. The role goes beyond your description as a representative of the business to development. The product owner is outward and inward facing, communicates with customers, users, and other stakeholders and works with the team. As I mentioned before, the product owner role is a genuinely new role and disruptive for most organisations, as it does not easily map onto existing roles and structures.
                          > >
                          > > If a product grows and the project has to be scaled, we introduce a product owner hierarchy with an overall or chief product owner at the top. A complex product owner hierarchy introduces a certain specialization of the individual product owner jobs. The chief product owner leads the overall development effort, coordinating with customers and other stakeholders. The lower-level product owners are more focused on their features or subsystems and work closely with the development teams. Ken Schwaber writes in his book "The Enterprise and Scrum:" "The Product Owner plans, composes, distributes, and tracks work from his or her level down. … The higher the level is, the harder the Product Owner's … job is. The responsibility of Product-level jobs usually requires someone with Vice President-level or Director-level title and authority."
                          > >
                          > > Best regards,
                          > > Roman
                          > >
                          > > PS: You can find out more about product ownership in Scrum in my upcoming book "Agile Product Management with Scrum."
                          > >
                          > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "gregc" <greg@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Inmac,
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > To build upon what Roman and Sarath have already written, it is
                          > > > important to realize the Product Owner actually has a well defined role
                          > > > in a well defined process, Scrum. Product Management and Product
                          > > > Marketing are not that well defined and thus the roles vary dramatically
                          > > > by company. So you may see disconnects with what you read that a
                          > > > product manager should be doing and what you observe in your own
                          > > > company.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > But at the highest level, the Product Manager's role is to ensure
                          > > > the business success of the product. As the Scrum Team is responsible
                          > > > for achieving the Sprint Goal, the Product Manager is responsible for
                          > > > ensuring the product meets the business objectives. If the product is
                          > > > not meeting its sales objectives, for example, it is the product
                          > > > managers responsibility to solve this problem, including evaluating
                          > > > pricing, business model, packaging (e.g. premium, basic, free versions,)
                          > > > messaging, product enhancements, service enhancements, sales training,
                          > > > competitive landscape, partnerships, etc.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > The Product Owner role, on the other hand, is really about representing
                          > > > the business side and working with engineering to optimize the software
                          > > > (or technology) delivery part of the entire product solution.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > There is considerable overlap in the knowledge needed to do either job
                          > > > well. So it is often the logical choice for the product manager to
                          > > > assume the product owner role or the product owner to assume some
                          > > > responsibilities that would traditionally fall under product management.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > As a business or product scales, it no longer is possible for one
                          > > > individual to perform both inbound and outbound product management.
                          > > > Inbound being the listening side of understanding the customer needs and
                          > > > working with development. Outbound being activities to communicate to
                          > > > the market the benefits of the product. Outbound activities are
                          > > > therefore often carved off into a product marketing role. This works
                          > > > well because inbound people tend to be more detail oriented and like the
                          > > > technology and outbound people tend to be more big picture and sales
                          > > > oriented. Decision authority usually still resides with either the
                          > > > inbound product manager, the outbound product marketing manager, or a
                          > > > senior product manager who owns the business strategy and who the
                          > > > inbound product manager and outbound product marketing manager report
                          > > > into. I have never seen it be a committee of product manager and product
                          > > > marketer as you suggest. But I have seen this person need to report
                          > > > into a committee for authorization. Thus, they lead through influence,
                          > > > not authority. But I think this is true for any Product Owner as well.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > -greg
                          > > >
                          > > > 280group
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Pichler"
                          > > > <roman.pichler@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hi Inanc,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I am saying that the Scrum product owner is a genuinely new role that
                          > > > does not easily map onto traditional roles. What we are doing in Scrum
                          > > > is redefining the relationship between "the business" and "the techies"
                          > > > by asking the right people to form a closely-knit Scrum team. The
                          > > > product owner as the individual mostly concerned with target customers,
                          > > > customer needs and product features is part of this team, as you
                          > > > explained. I view a proxy product owner who is a go-between marketers
                          > > > and developers as an anti-pattern. Another anti-pattern is splitting the
                          > > > Scrum product owner role into an "agile product manager" and a
                          > > > "technical product owner" role (or a big and small "product owner").
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Best regards,
                          > > > > Roman
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Inanc Gumus" inanc.gumus@
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Hello Roman,
                          > > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman" <roman.pichler@>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > > > > I think it is important to recognise that the product owner is a
                          > > > new, multifaceted role that unites the authority and responsibility
                          > > > traditionally scattered across separate roles.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > So, are you saying that the product owner is a bridge between
                          > > > product managers/marketers and developers? If it's that so, product
                          > > > owner is just a feature prioritizer. My experience with Scrum and other
                          > > > agile practices show me that product owner is just a role, but is an
                          > > > important one. That, works *inside* marketing, product management and
                          > > > within developers. Collobrates with each teams from inside rather than
                          > > > just an outside prioritized messenger. It is an invention that tries to
                          > > > close the gap between the developers and the business.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > What do you think?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                        • Roman Pichler
                          Hi Greg, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are right. The Scrum Guide does not state that the product owner is responsible for the commercial success of
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 6, 2009
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                            Hi Greg,

                            Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are right. The Scrum Guide does not state that the product owner is responsible for the commercial success of the product. I attribute this to its brevity. In his book his "Agile Project Management with Scrum," Ken Schwaber writes on p. 18: "The Product Owner's focus is return on investment (ROI)." And he writes in "The Enterprise and Scrum" on p. 78 about large project involving a product owner hierarchy: "The Product Owner at the very top of the hierarchy (..) is responsible for overall Product ROI and success."

                            The trouble with the product owner role (as well as with the product manager role) is that it is highly context-sensitive; its application varies depending on the type of product, its product lifecycle stage, the project size, and other factors. I completely agree with you that the product owner role can be filled by a product manager. What I've tried to point out is that the two roles are not the same. That's important to me as I see companies simply re-brand their product managers without making the necessary changes to establish Scrum product ownership. I regard the product owner role for commercial software products as product manager plus x. The x includes release planning, product backlog grooming and close collaboration with the team (which is usually not the product manager's job).

                            I agree with your answers to the three questions. Scrum does not require that the product owner works with a product road map, and the product vision is not part of the Scrum framework as defined in the Scrum Guide. But that does not mean that the vision and roadmap are not useful in a Scrum context. In fact, Ken talks about the vision in "Agile Software Development with Scrum" and in "Agile Project Management with Scrum." I think we will see more product owner practices and techniques emerge in the coming years that help product owners do a great job and support Scrum team to create great products.

                            Best regards,
                            Roman

                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "gregc" <greg@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Roman,
                            >
                            > I was speaking with a well known scrum expert today about this topic, and he agrees with you that the PO is the person responsible for the business success of the product. We even discussed that profit and loss responsibility should sit with the PO. So I consider you to be in very good company. But I have to admit, I am just not seeing that Scrum formally says this.
                            >
                            > Although I think the PO role might be evolving to assume the broader responsibilities of business success that you describe, I do not find support in the literature to suggest that Scrum assigns this level of responsibility to the PO. In particular, when I review the Scrum Guide on the Scrum Alliance site, it states "The Product Owner is the one and only person responsible for managing the Product Backlog and ensuring the value of the work the Team performs."
                            >
                            > Thus my point, Scrum empowers the PO with a single lever to ensure business success of the product, which is deciding the features in the product. I am not saying that a PO cannot or may not have broader responsibility. But in the way I read it, Scrum does not prescribe further responsibility to the PO beyond optimizing development to ensure business success. The Scrum Guide further adds: "For commercial development, the Product Owner may be the product manager." In other words, the PO may be a product manager and therefore may have additional product management responsibilities such as pricing, packaging, channel, buy/build/partner decisions, etc. But the more "other" responsibilities we pile on, the more the PO starts sounding like a product manager.
                            >
                            > Another way to approach it is to ask ourselves at what point is a PO no longer a PO and the team therefore no longer doing scrum?
                            >
                            > 1. If a PO does not conduct win/loss analysis, would you still call them a PO and would the team still be doing scrum?
                            >
                            > 2. If a PO does not develop a roadmap but maintains a visible, prioritized product backlog, would you still call them a PO and would the team still be doing Scrum?
                            >
                            > 3. If the PO maintains a roadmap and develops all outbound messaging and sales training for the product, but a business analyst maintains the product backlog and the Scrum Master decides what is in the product, would you still call the PO a PO and would the team still be doing Scrum?
                            >
                            > For me, the answer is yes, yes, and no.
                            >
                            > There are many good practices PO's can adopt to be more successful in their role, and most if not all strike me as classic product management tasks. And from the couple of chapters of your book that I have seen, I know you have provided an excellent treatment on these topics and a major contribution to the field. But as I wrote at the top, I am just not seeing that Scrum formally says the PO owns these responsibilities.
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Pichler" <roman.pichler@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Greg,
                            > >
                            > > The product owner *is* the person responsible for the product success. The role goes beyond your description as a representative of the business to development. The product owner is outward and inward facing, communicates with customers, users, and other stakeholders and works with the team. As I mentioned before, the product owner role is a genuinely new role and disruptive for most organisations, as it does not easily map onto existing roles and structures.
                            > >
                            > > If a product grows and the project has to be scaled, we introduce a product owner hierarchy with an overall or chief product owner at the top. A complex product owner hierarchy introduces a certain specialization of the individual product owner jobs. The chief product owner leads the overall development effort, coordinating with customers and other stakeholders. The lower-level product owners are more focused on their features or subsystems and work closely with the development teams. Ken Schwaber writes in his book "The Enterprise and Scrum:" "The Product Owner plans, composes, distributes, and tracks work from his or her level down. … The higher the level is, the harder the Product Owner's … job is. The responsibility of Product-level jobs usually requires someone with Vice President-level or Director-level title and authority."
                            > >
                            > > Best regards,
                            > > Roman
                            > >
                            > > PS: You can find out more about product ownership in Scrum in my upcoming book "Agile Product Management with Scrum."
                            > >
                            > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "gregc" <greg@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Inmac,
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > To build upon what Roman and Sarath have already written, it is
                            > > > important to realize the Product Owner actually has a well defined role
                            > > > in a well defined process, Scrum. Product Management and Product
                            > > > Marketing are not that well defined and thus the roles vary dramatically
                            > > > by company. So you may see disconnects with what you read that a
                            > > > product manager should be doing and what you observe in your own
                            > > > company.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > But at the highest level, the Product Manager's role is to ensure
                            > > > the business success of the product. As the Scrum Team is responsible
                            > > > for achieving the Sprint Goal, the Product Manager is responsible for
                            > > > ensuring the product meets the business objectives. If the product is
                            > > > not meeting its sales objectives, for example, it is the product
                            > > > managers responsibility to solve this problem, including evaluating
                            > > > pricing, business model, packaging (e.g. premium, basic, free versions,)
                            > > > messaging, product enhancements, service enhancements, sales training,
                            > > > competitive landscape, partnerships, etc.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > The Product Owner role, on the other hand, is really about representing
                            > > > the business side and working with engineering to optimize the software
                            > > > (or technology) delivery part of the entire product solution.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > There is considerable overlap in the knowledge needed to do either job
                            > > > well. So it is often the logical choice for the product manager to
                            > > > assume the product owner role or the product owner to assume some
                            > > > responsibilities that would traditionally fall under product management.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > As a business or product scales, it no longer is possible for one
                            > > > individual to perform both inbound and outbound product management.
                            > > > Inbound being the listening side of understanding the customer needs and
                            > > > working with development. Outbound being activities to communicate to
                            > > > the market the benefits of the product. Outbound activities are
                            > > > therefore often carved off into a product marketing role. This works
                            > > > well because inbound people tend to be more detail oriented and like the
                            > > > technology and outbound people tend to be more big picture and sales
                            > > > oriented. Decision authority usually still resides with either the
                            > > > inbound product manager, the outbound product marketing manager, or a
                            > > > senior product manager who owns the business strategy and who the
                            > > > inbound product manager and outbound product marketing manager report
                            > > > into. I have never seen it be a committee of product manager and product
                            > > > marketer as you suggest. But I have seen this person need to report
                            > > > into a committee for authorization. Thus, they lead through influence,
                            > > > not authority. But I think this is true for any Product Owner as well.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > -greg
                            > > >
                            > > > 280group
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Pichler"
                            > > > <roman.pichler@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Hi Inanc,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I am saying that the Scrum product owner is a genuinely new role that
                            > > > does not easily map onto traditional roles. What we are doing in Scrum
                            > > > is redefining the relationship between "the business" and "the techies"
                            > > > by asking the right people to form a closely-knit Scrum team. The
                            > > > product owner as the individual mostly concerned with target customers,
                            > > > customer needs and product features is part of this team, as you
                            > > > explained. I view a proxy product owner who is a go-between marketers
                            > > > and developers as an anti-pattern. Another anti-pattern is splitting the
                            > > > Scrum product owner role into an "agile product manager" and a
                            > > > "technical product owner" role (or a big and small "product owner").
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Best regards,
                            > > > > Roman
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Inanc Gumus" inanc.gumus@
                            > > > wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Hello Roman,
                            > > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman" <roman.pichler@>
                            > > > wrote:
                            > > > > > > I think it is important to recognise that the product owner is a
                            > > > new, multifaceted role that unites the authority and responsibility
                            > > > traditionally scattered across separate roles.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > So, are you saying that the product owner is a bridge between
                            > > > product managers/marketers and developers? If it's that so, product
                            > > > owner is just a feature prioritizer. My experience with Scrum and other
                            > > > agile practices show me that product owner is just a role, but is an
                            > > > important one. That, works *inside* marketing, product management and
                            > > > within developers. Collobrates with each teams from inside rather than
                            > > > just an outside prioritized messenger. It is an invention that tries to
                            > > > close the gap between the developers and the business.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > What do you think?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Roman Pichler
                            Hi Oliver, You may have noticed that Ken Schwaber also writes in the Scrum Guide: (..) the Product Owner can never be the ScrumMaster. Combining the two
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 6, 2009
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                              Hi Oliver,

                              You may have noticed that Ken Schwaber also writes in the Scrum Guide: "(..) the Product Owner can never be the ScrumMaster." Combining the two roles would create an overly powerful product owner who may be tempted to bend the rules with no one else protecting the team and process.

                              Best regards,
                              Roman

                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Oliver Condurache <olivercondura@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Gentle people,
                              >
                              > I am not sure if scrum is explaining enough the distinction between
                              > roles and persons, as a person can take a role or multiple scrum roles
                              > (for example in a small organization).
                              > The role of the Product Owner ca be taken sometimes by the Scum Master
                              > (scrum guide excerpt "The Scrum Master teaches the Product Owner how
                              > to do his or her job. Product Owners are expected to know how to
                              > manage to optimize value using Scrum. If they don't, we hold the Scrum
                              > Master accountable.").
                              >
                              > (I notice scrum alliance does not recommend the scrum master to take
                              > the role of a team member.)
                              >
                              > From my experience the role of PO can be taken by the marketing
                              > manager, commercial manager, customer, a group of senior users.
                              >
                              > Kind Regards,
                              > Oliver
                              >
                              >
                              > Many roles can be embodied on various persons.
                              > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:37 AM, gregc <greg@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Roman,
                              > >
                              > > I was speaking with a well known scrum expert today about this topic, and he agrees with you that the PO is the person responsible for the business success of the product. We even discussed that profit and loss responsibility should sit with the PO. So I consider you to be in very good company. But I have to admit, I am just not seeing that Scrum formally says this.
                              > >
                              > > Although I think the PO role might be evolving to assume the broader responsibilities of business success that you describe, I do not find support in the literature to suggest that Scrum assigns this level of responsibility to the PO. In particular, when I review the Scrum Guide on the Scrum Alliance site, it states "The Product Owner is the one and only person responsible for managing the Product Backlog and ensuring the value of the work the Team performs."
                              > >
                              > > Thus my point, Scrum empowers the PO with a single lever to ensure business success of the product, which is deciding the features in the product. I am not saying that a PO cannot or may not have broader responsibility. But in the way I read it, Scrum does not prescribe further responsibility to the PO beyond optimizing development to ensure business success. The Scrum Guide further adds: "For commercial development, the Product Owner may be the product manager." In other words, the PO may be a product manager and therefore may have additional product management responsibilities such as pricing, packaging, channel, buy/build/partner decisions, etc. But the more "other" responsibilities we pile on, the more the PO starts sounding like a product manager.
                              > >
                              > > Another way to approach it is to ask ourselves at what point is a PO no longer a PO and the team therefore no longer doing scrum?
                              > >
                              > > 1. If a PO does not conduct win/loss analysis, would you still call them a PO and would the team still be doing scrum?
                              > >
                              > > 2. If a PO does not develop a roadmap but maintains a visible, prioritized product backlog, would you still call them a PO and would the team still be doing Scrum?
                              > >
                              > > 3. If the PO maintains a roadmap and develops all outbound messaging and sales training for the product, but a business analyst maintains the product backlog and the Scrum Master decides what is in the product, would you still call the PO a PO and would the team still be doing Scrum?
                              > >
                              > > For me, the answer is yes, yes, and no.
                              > >
                              > > There are many good practices PO's can adopt to be more successful in their role, and most if not all strike me as classic product management tasks. And from the couple of chapters of your book that I have seen, I know you have provided an excellent treatment on these topics and a major contribution to the field. But as I wrote at the top, I am just not seeing that Scrum formally says the PO owns these responsibilities.
                              > >
                              > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Pichler" <roman.pichler@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hi Greg,
                              > > >
                              > > > The product owner *is* the person responsible for the product success. The role goes beyond your description as a representative of the business to development. The product owner is outward and inward facing, communicates with customers, users, and other stakeholders and works with the team. As I mentioned before, the product owner role is a genuinely new role and disruptive for most organisations, as it does not easily map onto existing roles and structures.
                              > > >
                              > > > If a product grows and the project has to be scaled, we introduce a product owner hierarchy with an overall or chief product owner at the top. A complex product owner hierarchy introduces a certain specialization of the individual product owner jobs. The chief product owner leads the overall development effort, coordinating with customers and other stakeholders. The lower-level product owners are more focused on their features or subsystems and work closely with the development teams. Ken Schwaber writes in his book "The Enterprise and Scrum:" "The Product Owner plans, composes, distributes, and tracks work from his or her level down. … The higher the level is, the harder the Product Owner's … job is. The responsibility of Product-level jobs usually requires someone with Vice President-level or Director-level title and authority."
                              > > >
                              > > > Best regards,
                              > > > Roman
                              > > >
                              > > > PS: You can find out more about product ownership in Scrum in my upcoming book "Agile Product Management with Scrum."
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "gregc" <greg@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Inmac,
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > To build upon what Roman and Sarath have already written, it is
                              > > > > important to realize the Product Owner actually has a well defined role
                              > > > > in a well defined process, Scrum. Product Management and Product
                              > > > > Marketing are not that well defined and thus the roles vary dramatically
                              > > > > by company. So you may see disconnects with what you read that a
                              > > > > product manager should be doing and what you observe in your own
                              > > > > company.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > But at the highest level, the Product Manager's role is to ensure
                              > > > > the business success of the product. As the Scrum Team is responsible
                              > > > > for achieving the Sprint Goal, the Product Manager is responsible for
                              > > > > ensuring the product meets the business objectives. If the product is
                              > > > > not meeting its sales objectives, for example, it is the product
                              > > > > managers responsibility to solve this problem, including evaluating
                              > > > > pricing, business model, packaging (e.g. premium, basic, free versions,)
                              > > > > messaging, product enhancements, service enhancements, sales training,
                              > > > > competitive landscape, partnerships, etc.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The Product Owner role, on the other hand, is really about representing
                              > > > > the business side and working with engineering to optimize the software
                              > > > > (or technology) delivery part of the entire product solution.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > There is considerable overlap in the knowledge needed to do either job
                              > > > > well. So it is often the logical choice for the product manager to
                              > > > > assume the product owner role or the product owner to assume some
                              > > > > responsibilities that would traditionally fall under product management.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > As a business or product scales, it no longer is possible for one
                              > > > > individual to perform both inbound and outbound product management.
                              > > > > Inbound being the listening side of understanding the customer needs and
                              > > > > working with development. Outbound being activities to communicate to
                              > > > > the market the benefits of the product. Outbound activities are
                              > > > > therefore often carved off into a product marketing role. This works
                              > > > > well because inbound people tend to be more detail oriented and like the
                              > > > > technology and outbound people tend to be more big picture and sales
                              > > > > oriented. Decision authority usually still resides with either the
                              > > > > inbound product manager, the outbound product marketing manager, or a
                              > > > > senior product manager who owns the business strategy and who the
                              > > > > inbound product manager and outbound product marketing manager report
                              > > > > into. I have never seen it be a committee of product manager and product
                              > > > > marketer as you suggest. But I have seen this person need to report
                              > > > > into a committee for authorization. Thus, they lead through influence,
                              > > > > not authority. But I think this is true for any Product Owner as well.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > -greg
                              > > > >
                              > > > > 280group
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Pichler"
                              > > > > <roman.pichler@> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Hi Inanc,
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I am saying that the Scrum product owner is a genuinely new role that
                              > > > > does not easily map onto traditional roles. What we are doing in Scrum
                              > > > > is redefining the relationship between "the business" and "the techies"
                              > > > > by asking the right people to form a closely-knit Scrum team. The
                              > > > > product owner as the individual mostly concerned with target customers,
                              > > > > customer needs and product features is part of this team, as you
                              > > > > explained. I view a proxy product owner who is a go-between marketers
                              > > > > and developers as an anti-pattern. Another anti-pattern is splitting the
                              > > > > Scrum product owner role into an "agile product manager" and a
                              > > > > "technical product owner" role (or a big and small "product owner").
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Best regards,
                              > > > > > Roman
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Inanc Gumus" inanc.gumus@
                              > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Hello Roman,
                              > > > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman" <roman.pichler@>
                              > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > > > I think it is important to recognise that the product owner is a
                              > > > > new, multifaceted role that unites the authority and responsibility
                              > > > > traditionally scattered across separate roles.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > So, are you saying that the product owner is a bridge between
                              > > > > product managers/marketers and developers? If it's that so, product
                              > > > > owner is just a feature prioritizer. My experience with Scrum and other
                              > > > > agile practices show me that product owner is just a role, but is an
                              > > > > important one. That, works *inside* marketing, product management and
                              > > > > within developers. Collobrates with each teams from inside rather than
                              > > > > just an outside prioritized messenger. It is an invention that tries to
                              > > > > close the gap between the developers and the business.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > What do you think?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • JackM
                              Hi Oliver et al, I see this all very clearly. First in response to Oliver s comment about the Scrum Master taking on the role of PO .. this is a definite NO
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 6, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi Oliver et al,

                                I see this all very clearly. First in response to Oliver's comment about the Scrum Master taking on the role of PO .. this is a definite NO NO.

                                I believe the founders of scrum specifically changed the title to PO to make it distinct from that of the PM. The PO has a very specific task at hand.

                                "His" team has a certain available capacity, and its his responsibility has to fill that available capacity with high value work (turning hi priority stories into functioning code). In order to know what's valuable and what's not means the PO has to be plugged in to the Customer, the market etc.

                                The PO also has specific duties like grooming the backlog, participating in the planning meetings and other inspect and adapt meetings, explaining stories to the team, on call to the team as questions arise in regards implementation etc.

                                There are other duties that relate to PM's (which can be done by the PO depending on the company) like, pricing, positioning, marketing, competitive analysis etc.

                                From my point of view, whether or not the PO also takes on the duties of a PM I don't really care as long as the PO is doing what he must do as specified by Scrum (And this is very clear to me), then all is good.

                                I blogged about this over on agilesoftwaredevelopment.com at

                                http://agilesoftwaredevelopment.com/blog/jackmilunsky/product-owner-vs-product-manager

                                Jack
                                www.agilebuddy.com
                                blog.agilebuddy.com
                                twitter.com/agilebuddy



                                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Pichler" <roman.pichler@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Greg,
                                >
                                > Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are right. The Scrum Guide does not state that the product owner is responsible for the commercial success of the product. I attribute this to its brevity. In his book his "Agile Project Management with Scrum," Ken Schwaber writes on p. 18: "The Product Owner's focus is return on investment (ROI)." And he writes in "The Enterprise and Scrum" on p. 78 about large project involving a product owner hierarchy: "The Product Owner at the very top of the hierarchy (..) is responsible for overall Product ROI and success."
                                >
                                > The trouble with the product owner role (as well as with the product manager role) is that it is highly context-sensitive; its application varies depending on the type of product, its product lifecycle stage, the project size, and other factors. I completely agree with you that the product owner role can be filled by a product manager. What I've tried to point out is that the two roles are not the same. That's important to me as I see companies simply re-brand their product managers without making the necessary changes to establish Scrum product ownership. I regard the product owner role for commercial software products as product manager plus x. The x includes release planning, product backlog grooming and close collaboration with the team (which is usually not the product manager's job).
                                >
                                > I agree with your answers to the three questions. Scrum does not require that the product owner works with a product road map, and the product vision is not part of the Scrum framework as defined in the Scrum Guide. But that does not mean that the vision and roadmap are not useful in a Scrum context. In fact, Ken talks about the vision in "Agile Software Development with Scrum" and in "Agile Project Management with Scrum." I think we will see more product owner practices and techniques emerge in the coming years that help product owners do a great job and support Scrum team to create great products.
                                >
                                > Best regards,
                                > Roman
                                >
                                > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "gregc" <greg@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Roman,
                                > >
                                > > I was speaking with a well known scrum expert today about this topic, and he agrees with you that the PO is the person responsible for the business success of the product. We even discussed that profit and loss responsibility should sit with the PO. So I consider you to be in very good company. But I have to admit, I am just not seeing that Scrum formally says this.
                                > >
                                > > Although I think the PO role might be evolving to assume the broader responsibilities of business success that you describe, I do not find support in the literature to suggest that Scrum assigns this level of responsibility to the PO. In particular, when I review the Scrum Guide on the Scrum Alliance site, it states "The Product Owner is the one and only person responsible for managing the Product Backlog and ensuring the value of the work the Team performs."
                                > >
                                > > Thus my point, Scrum empowers the PO with a single lever to ensure business success of the product, which is deciding the features in the product. I am not saying that a PO cannot or may not have broader responsibility. But in the way I read it, Scrum does not prescribe further responsibility to the PO beyond optimizing development to ensure business success. The Scrum Guide further adds: "For commercial development, the Product Owner may be the product manager." In other words, the PO may be a product manager and therefore may have additional product management responsibilities such as pricing, packaging, channel, buy/build/partner decisions, etc. But the more "other" responsibilities we pile on, the more the PO starts sounding like a product manager.
                                > >
                                > > Another way to approach it is to ask ourselves at what point is a PO no longer a PO and the team therefore no longer doing scrum?
                                > >
                                > > 1. If a PO does not conduct win/loss analysis, would you still call them a PO and would the team still be doing scrum?
                                > >
                                > > 2. If a PO does not develop a roadmap but maintains a visible, prioritized product backlog, would you still call them a PO and would the team still be doing Scrum?
                                > >
                                > > 3. If the PO maintains a roadmap and develops all outbound messaging and sales training for the product, but a business analyst maintains the product backlog and the Scrum Master decides what is in the product, would you still call the PO a PO and would the team still be doing Scrum?
                                > >
                                > > For me, the answer is yes, yes, and no.
                                > >
                                > > There are many good practices PO's can adopt to be more successful in their role, and most if not all strike me as classic product management tasks. And from the couple of chapters of your book that I have seen, I know you have provided an excellent treatment on these topics and a major contribution to the field. But as I wrote at the top, I am just not seeing that Scrum formally says the PO owns these responsibilities.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Pichler" <roman.pichler@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hi Greg,
                                > > >
                                > > > The product owner *is* the person responsible for the product success. The role goes beyond your description as a representative of the business to development. The product owner is outward and inward facing, communicates with customers, users, and other stakeholders and works with the team. As I mentioned before, the product owner role is a genuinely new role and disruptive for most organisations, as it does not easily map onto existing roles and structures.
                                > > >
                                > > > If a product grows and the project has to be scaled, we introduce a product owner hierarchy with an overall or chief product owner at the top. A complex product owner hierarchy introduces a certain specialization of the individual product owner jobs. The chief product owner leads the overall development effort, coordinating with customers and other stakeholders. The lower-level product owners are more focused on their features or subsystems and work closely with the development teams. Ken Schwaber writes in his book "The Enterprise and Scrum:" "The Product Owner plans, composes, distributes, and tracks work from his or her level down. � The higher the level is, the harder the Product Owner's � job is. The responsibility of Product-level jobs usually requires someone with Vice President-level or Director-level title and authority."
                                > > >
                                > > > Best regards,
                                > > > Roman
                                > > >
                                > > > PS: You can find out more about product ownership in Scrum in my upcoming book "Agile Product Management with Scrum."
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "gregc" <greg@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Inmac,
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > To build upon what Roman and Sarath have already written, it is
                                > > > > important to realize the Product Owner actually has a well defined role
                                > > > > in a well defined process, Scrum. Product Management and Product
                                > > > > Marketing are not that well defined and thus the roles vary dramatically
                                > > > > by company. So you may see disconnects with what you read that a
                                > > > > product manager should be doing and what you observe in your own
                                > > > > company.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > But at the highest level, the Product Manager's role is to ensure
                                > > > > the business success of the product. As the Scrum Team is responsible
                                > > > > for achieving the Sprint Goal, the Product Manager is responsible for
                                > > > > ensuring the product meets the business objectives. If the product is
                                > > > > not meeting its sales objectives, for example, it is the product
                                > > > > managers responsibility to solve this problem, including evaluating
                                > > > > pricing, business model, packaging (e.g. premium, basic, free versions,)
                                > > > > messaging, product enhancements, service enhancements, sales training,
                                > > > > competitive landscape, partnerships, etc.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The Product Owner role, on the other hand, is really about representing
                                > > > > the business side and working with engineering to optimize the software
                                > > > > (or technology) delivery part of the entire product solution.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > There is considerable overlap in the knowledge needed to do either job
                                > > > > well. So it is often the logical choice for the product manager to
                                > > > > assume the product owner role or the product owner to assume some
                                > > > > responsibilities that would traditionally fall under product management.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > As a business or product scales, it no longer is possible for one
                                > > > > individual to perform both inbound and outbound product management.
                                > > > > Inbound being the listening side of understanding the customer needs and
                                > > > > working with development. Outbound being activities to communicate to
                                > > > > the market the benefits of the product. Outbound activities are
                                > > > > therefore often carved off into a product marketing role. This works
                                > > > > well because inbound people tend to be more detail oriented and like the
                                > > > > technology and outbound people tend to be more big picture and sales
                                > > > > oriented. Decision authority usually still resides with either the
                                > > > > inbound product manager, the outbound product marketing manager, or a
                                > > > > senior product manager who owns the business strategy and who the
                                > > > > inbound product manager and outbound product marketing manager report
                                > > > > into. I have never seen it be a committee of product manager and product
                                > > > > marketer as you suggest. But I have seen this person need to report
                                > > > > into a committee for authorization. Thus, they lead through influence,
                                > > > > not authority. But I think this is true for any Product Owner as well.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > -greg
                                > > > >
                                > > > > 280group
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Pichler"
                                > > > > <roman.pichler@> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Hi Inanc,
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I am saying that the Scrum product owner is a genuinely new role that
                                > > > > does not easily map onto traditional roles. What we are doing in Scrum
                                > > > > is redefining the relationship between "the business" and "the techies"
                                > > > > by asking the right people to form a closely-knit Scrum team. The
                                > > > > product owner as the individual mostly concerned with target customers,
                                > > > > customer needs and product features is part of this team, as you
                                > > > > explained. I view a proxy product owner who is a go-between marketers
                                > > > > and developers as an anti-pattern. Another anti-pattern is splitting the
                                > > > > Scrum product owner role into an "agile product manager" and a
                                > > > > "technical product owner" role (or a big and small "product owner").
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Best regards,
                                > > > > > Roman
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Inanc Gumus" inanc.gumus@
                                > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Hello Roman,
                                > > > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Roman" <roman.pichler@>
                                > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > > > I think it is important to recognise that the product owner is a
                                > > > > new, multifaceted role that unites the authority and responsibility
                                > > > > traditionally scattered across separate roles.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > So, are you saying that the product owner is a bridge between
                                > > > > product managers/marketers and developers? If it's that so, product
                                > > > > owner is just a feature prioritizer. My experience with Scrum and other
                                > > > > agile practices show me that product owner is just a role, but is an
                                > > > > important one. That, works *inside* marketing, product management and
                                > > > > within developers. Collobrates with each teams from inside rather than
                                > > > > just an outside prioritized messenger. It is an invention that tries to
                                > > > > close the gap between the developers and the business.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > What do you think?
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
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