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[Fwd: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Agile Is Not A Product]

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  • Linda Rising
    A note from Cope. ... Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Agile Is Not A Product Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:52:44 -0500 From: James O. Coplien
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 23, 2004
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      A note from Cope.


      -------- Original Message --------
      Subject:Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Agile Is Not A Product
      Date:Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:52:44 -0500
      From:James O. Coplien <JOCoplien@...>
      To:Mike Beedle <beedlem@...>
      CC:'Linda Rising' <risingl@...>, <scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com>
      References:<002c01c48920$60a2d760$ed37fea9@VEGA>


      I'm not a member of scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com (and probably don't
      have the time to invest in the group).  Can you forward the following 
      to the group?
      
      1. I agree with just about everything that Mike said. The only nit is 
      about XP
      being in line with patterns. XP is a closed system, and a system where 
      the
      principles and practices are mandated by a master plan.  There is little
      XP wiggle room for reflection and for changes in the principles or 
      practices.
      As Cockburn and others have observed, it is a very high-ceremony 
      methodology.
      Patterns are about being open to your feelings, to your own culture, 
      and to
      instinct.
      
      In SCRUM, on the other hand, you start with a new world every day, and 
      decide
      to do what needs to be done.
      
      In the Organizational Patterns, we go all the way and let the 
      organization
      follow learning organization principles to learn new patterns, one step 
      at
      a time.
      
      
      2. I also concur with Mike about the cultural foundations.  Patterns 
      have everything
      to do with culture;  if you strip out the culture, all you have is a 
      pure geometry.
      And culture has everything to do with patterns.  Much of the classical
      literature of anthropology employs a pattern "formalism" that is almost
      identical to Alexander's. Kroeber's work is the best-known.
      
      In our new book, "Organizational Patterns of Agile Software 
      Development,"
      we build the patterns using tools from social network theory -- a tool 
      used
      in sociology, itself a branch of anthropology.
      
      
      3. There is a renewed awareness these days about the place and value
      of culture in the pattern community.  At PLoP this year, there will be 
      a reflection
      on the community values. The discussion will be based in part on this 
      paper
      which is about to be published.  The paper has been widely socialized 
      among
      the founders of the software pattern community, as well as among a few
      well-informed outsiders.  Enjoy.
      
      
      
    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Simply not true. ... As someone who does it, I don t see this as true either. ... Yes. So s XP. I wish people who have never done it, never sat down with
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 23, 2004
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        On Monday, August 23, 2004, at 3:03:53 PM, Linda Rising wrote:

        > 1. I agree with just about everything that Mike said. The only nit is
        > about XP
        > being in line with patterns. XP is a closed system, and a system where
        > the
        > principles and practices are mandated by a master plan. There is little
        > XP wiggle room for reflection and for changes in the principles or
        > practices.

        Simply not true.

        > As Cockburn and others have observed, it is a very high-ceremony
        > methodology.

        As someone who does it, I don't see this as true either.

        > Patterns are about being open to your feelings, to your own culture,
        > and to
        > instinct.

        Yes. So's XP.

        I wish people who have never done it, never sat down with someone who does,
        would stop writing conclusions about it. It's bad science.

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        I must create a system, or be enslaved by another man's;
        I will not reason and compare; my business is to create. --William Blake
      • Linda Rising
        I feel bad -- it says Linda Rising wrote -- :-(! Should I send this on to Cope who isn t on this list?
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 23, 2004
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          I feel bad -- it says "Linda Rising wrote" -- :-(!

          Should I send this on to Cope who isn't on this list?



          Ron Jeffries wrote:
          On Monday, August 23, 2004, at 3:03:53 PM, Linda Rising wrote:
          
            
          1. I agree with just about everything that Mike said. The only nit is 
          about XP
          being in line with patterns. XP is a closed system, and a system where 
          the
          principles and practices are mandated by a master plan.  There is little
          XP wiggle room for reflection and for changes in the principles or 
          practices.
              
          Simply not true.
          
            
          As Cockburn and others have observed, it is a very high-ceremony 
          methodology.
              
          As someone who does it, I don't see this as true either.
          
            
          Patterns are about being open to your feelings, to your own culture, 
          and to
          instinct.
              
          Yes. So's XP.
          
          I wish people who have never done it, never sat down with someone who does,
          would stop writing conclusions about it. It's bad science.
          
          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          I must create a system, or be enslaved by another man's;
          I will not reason and compare; my business is to create. --William Blake
          
          
          
          
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        • Mike Cohn
          Nah, we all saw your earlier message crediting him. Besides, I m sure his lawyers will be in touch with you soon. :-) --Mike Cohn Author of User Stories
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 23, 2004
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            Nah, we all saw your earlier message crediting him.

            Besides, I’m sure his lawyers will be in touch with you soon. J

             

            --Mike Cohn

            Author of User Stories Applied for Agile Software Development

            www.userstories.com

            www.mountaingoatsoftware.com


            From: Linda Rising [mailto: risingl@... ]
            Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 7:04 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Agile Is Not A Product]

             

            I feel bad -- it says "Linda Rising wrote" -- :-(!

            Should I send this on to Cope who isn't on this list?



            Ron Jeffries wrote:

            On Monday, August 23, 2004, at 3:03:53 PM, Linda Rising wrote:
              
              
            1. I agree with just about everything that Mike said. The only nit is 
            about XP
            being in line with patterns. XP is a closed system, and a system where 
            the
            principles and practices are mandated by a master plan.  There is little
            XP wiggle room for reflection and for changes in the principles or 
            practices.
                
              
            Simply not true.
              
              
            As Cockburn and others have observed, it is a very high-ceremony 
            methodology.
                
              
            As someone who does it, I don't see this as true either.
              
              
            Patterns are about being open to your feelings, to your own culture, 
            and to
            instinct.
                
              
            Yes. So's XP.
              
            I wish people who have never done it, never sat down with someone who does,
            would stop writing conclusions about it. It's bad science.
              
            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            I must create a system, or be enslaved by another man's;
            I will not reason and compare; my business is to create. --William Blake
              
              
              
              
            ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> 
            Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
            Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
            http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9EfwlB/TM
            --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> 
              
            To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@... 
            Yahoo! Groups Links
              
            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment/
              
            <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              
            <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
             
              
              
              



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          • Ron Jeffries
            ... Sorry. The computer did it. :) ... No. I was just whining to the list. He s surely not interested. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Get over it. -- The
            Message 5 of 5 , Aug 23, 2004
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              On Monday, August 23, 2004, at 9:03:59 PM, Linda Rising wrote:

              > I feel bad -- it says "Linda Rising wrote" -- :-(!

              Sorry. The computer did it. :)

              > Should I send this on to Cope who isn't on this list?

              No. I was just whining to the list. He's surely not interested.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              Get over it. -- The Eagles
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