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SCRUM and IEEE 12207

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  • xenomino
    Hi all! I m preparing an academic paper supporting the idea of using SCRUM as the software development process within the IEEE 12207 standard. In order to
    Message 1 of 29 , Aug 18, 2004
      Hi all!

      I'm preparing an academic paper supporting the idea of using SCRUM as
      the software development process within the IEEE 12207 standard. In
      order to support the notion that this combination is effective, I was
      wondering if any of you could provide case-studies? Also, if anyone
      here has experience using these two processes together, I'd like to
      hear what you thought of the combination.

      v/r,

      Mike Van, PMP
    • Maurizio Tripi
      Hi mike, I think the targets of the ISO 12207 and the Scrum s are quite different. ISO12207 describes processes, activities and tasks, however it doesn t
      Message 2 of 29 , Aug 18, 2004
        Hi mike,
        I think the targets of the ISO 12207 and the Scrum's are quite different.
        ISO12207 describes processes, activities and tasks, however it doesn't
        describe how to implements these processes. While Scrum describes an
        implementation of a process for controlling projects. That process may
        be a (partial) implementation of the ISO 12207.
        I think it is possible to follow Scrum in such a way for it to be
        compliant with
        ISO 12207, but is difficult to tell which one is included in the other.
        Anyway it is an interesting issue: maybe considering Scrum to be 12207
        compliant
        may help some old fashioned managers to accept agile methods :-)

        Maurizio
      • xenomino
        Maurizio, 12207 contains a large number of items that follow the development of a software item from pre-proposal activities through project closure. There
        Message 3 of 29 , Aug 18, 2004
          Maurizio,

          12207 contains a large number of items that follow the development of
          a software item from pre-proposal activities through project
          closure. There are 5 primary processes and 1 of which is
          development. There are also a number sub-processes, each of which
          can be mapped to parts of the SCRUM iterations. Also, there are 4
          processes that are considered "organizational".

          The reason I state all of this is that I believe that SCRUM can and
          will easily fit within 12207 by mapping it to the development primary
          process and then map the sub-processes to individual SCRUM portions.

          Mike Van, PMP

          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Maurizio Tripi <mtripi@a...>
          wrote:
          > Hi mike,
          > I think the targets of the ISO 12207 and the Scrum's are quite
          different.
          > ISO12207 describes processes, activities and tasks, however it
          doesn't
          > describe how to implements these processes. While Scrum describes
          an
          > implementation of a process for controlling projects. That
          process may
          > be a (partial) implementation of the ISO 12207.
          > I think it is possible to follow Scrum in such a way for it to be
          > compliant with
          > ISO 12207, but is difficult to tell which one is included in the
          other.
          > Anyway it is an interesting issue: maybe considering Scrum to be
          12207
          > compliant
          > may help some old fashioned managers to accept agile methods :-)
          >
          > Maurizio
        • Maurizio Tripi
          I m sure that a good methodologist can fit 12207 into Scrum and viceversa. Scrum outlines a general purpose process hence it can be used for the primary,
          Message 4 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
            I'm sure that a good methodologist can fit 12207 into Scrum and viceversa.
            Scrum outlines a general purpose process hence it can be used for the
            primary,
            supporting and organizational life cycle processes. Scrum describes how
            to control
            a process and you can choose what activities to follow.
            We could set up a number of parallel Scrums to implements all the 12207
            processes.
            It's nice to see all that interest in standard life cycles.

            regards
            Maurizio

            xenomino wrote:

            > Maurizio,
            >
            > 12207 contains a large number of items that follow the development of
            > a software item from pre-proposal activities through project
            > closure. There are 5 primary processes and 1 of which is
            > development. There are also a number sub-processes, each of which
            > can be mapped to parts of the SCRUM iterations. Also, there are 4
            > processes that are considered "organizational".
            >
            > The reason I state all of this is that I believe that SCRUM can and
            > will easily fit within 12207 by mapping it to the development primary
            > process and then map the sub-processes to individual SCRUM portions.
            >
            > Mike Van, PMP
            >
            > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Maurizio Tripi <mtripi@a...>
            > wrote:
            > > Hi mike,
            > > I think the targets of the ISO 12207 and the Scrum's are quite
            > different.
            > > ISO12207 describes processes, activities and tasks, however it
            > doesn't
            > > describe how to implements these processes. While Scrum describes
            > an
            > > implementation of a process for controlling projects. That
            > process may
            > > be a (partial) implementation of the ISO 12207.
            > > I think it is possible to follow Scrum in such a way for it to be
            > > compliant with
            > > ISO 12207, but is difficult to tell which one is included in the
            > other.
            > > Anyway it is an interesting issue: maybe considering Scrum to be
            > 12207
            > > compliant
            > > may help some old fashioned managers to accept agile methods :-)
            > >
            > > Maurizio
            >
            >
            >
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          • xenomino
            Maurizio, IMHO, a proven SWDev methodology is long overdue in government contracting circles. The latest statistic I read stated that only 30% of all IT
            Message 5 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
              Maurizio,

              IMHO, a proven SWDev methodology is long overdue in government
              contracting circles. The latest statistic I read stated that only
              30% of all IT projects begun in Federal contracting actually produce
              thier intended products.

              A number of books point to political issues like the pursuit of
              power, and lack of management commitment as the major reasons for
              this trend. However, I think the major reason for this is the
              extremely risk-averse nature of government program managers who
              oversee these projects. They are simply not willing to bet thier
              careers on a project whose development methodologies don't fall
              within thier myopic plan-driven "standards". What my paper tries to
              prove is that you CAN use a tried and tested agile S/W development
              process within the overall plan-driven lifecycle of a software
              product.

              Lets face it, most of the truly awe-inspiring case-studies of SCRUM
              involve enlightened S/W development managers coming into dying
              projects, reviving the projects using SCRUM and producing
              deliverables "against all odds". If we can take a plan-driven
              process like IEEE 12207, and use SCRUM in the development areas, we
              can "save" projects before they even start. All of this while
              ensuring that government program managers have enough documents to
              show progress in thier projects.

              In the end, we can keep our developers highly productive while saving
              them from the production of mindless documents. Note, I didn't
              say "mindless documentation". To most of my customers, there is no
              such thing as "self-documenting" code and clear documentation is
              required before we get paid.

              Good debate. Now, has anyone actually used SCRUM and IEEE 12207
              together?

              Mike Van, PMP

              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Maurizio Tripi <mtripi@a...>
              wrote:
              > I'm sure that a good methodologist can fit 12207 into Scrum and
              viceversa.
              > Scrum outlines a general purpose process hence it can be used for
              the
              > primary,
              > supporting and organizational life cycle processes. Scrum describes
              how
              > to control
              > a process and you can choose what activities to follow.
              > We could set up a number of parallel Scrums to implements all the
              12207
              > processes.
              > It's nice to see all that interest in standard life cycles.
              >
              > regards
              > Maurizio
              >
              > xenomino wrote:
              >
              > > Maurizio,
              > >
              > > 12207 contains a large number of items that follow the
              development of
              > > a software item from pre-proposal activities through project
              > > closure. There are 5 primary processes and 1 of which is
              > > development. There are also a number sub-processes, each of which
              > > can be mapped to parts of the SCRUM iterations. Also, there are 4
              > > processes that are considered "organizational".
              > >
              > > The reason I state all of this is that I believe that SCRUM can
              and
              > > will easily fit within 12207 by mapping it to the development
              primary
              > > process and then map the sub-processes to individual SCRUM
              portions.
              > >
              > > Mike Van, PMP
              > >
              > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Maurizio Tripi
              <mtripi@a...>
              > > wrote:
              > > > Hi mike,
              > > > I think the targets of the ISO 12207 and the Scrum's are quite
              > > different.
              > > > ISO12207 describes processes, activities and tasks, however it
              > > doesn't
              > > > describe how to implements these processes. While Scrum
              describes
              > > an
              > > > implementation of a process for controlling projects. That
              > > process may
              > > > be a (partial) implementation of the ISO 12207.
              > > > I think it is possible to follow Scrum in such a way for it to
              be
              > > > compliant with
              > > > ISO 12207, but is difficult to tell which one is included in the
              > > other.
              > > > Anyway it is an interesting issue: maybe considering Scrum to
              be
              > > 12207
              > > > compliant
              > > > may help some old fashioned managers to accept agile methods :-)
              > > >
              > > > Maurizio
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
              > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
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            • Maurizio Tripi
              Mike I think your idea is very good. My company works in the goverment and telco markets so very few projects in my experience can be *pure* Scrum. We always
              Message 6 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
                Mike I think your idea is very good.
                My company works in the goverment and telco markets so very few projects
                in my
                experience can be *pure* Scrum. We always have to follow a document driven
                process, and that's the way.
                I follow you in all yours arguments with only a couple of exceptions:
                * Scrum should not be used just for development but it can be a very
                good implementation of a documentation or acquisition process, for example.
                * Scrum is not against documents, if the project aims to produce documents,
                well Scrum can drive you in *the art of possible* in creating documents.

                cheers
                Maurizio

                xenomino wrote:

                > Maurizio,
                >
                > IMHO, a proven SWDev methodology is long overdue in government
                > contracting circles. The latest statistic I read stated that only
                > 30% of all IT projects begun in Federal contracting actually produce
                > thier intended products.
                >
                > A number of books point to political issues like the pursuit of
                > power, and lack of management commitment as the major reasons for
                > this trend. However, I think the major reason for this is the
                > extremely risk-averse nature of government program managers who
                > oversee these projects. They are simply not willing to bet thier
                > careers on a project whose development methodologies don't fall
                > within thier myopic plan-driven "standards". What my paper tries to
                > prove is that you CAN use a tried and tested agile S/W development
                > process within the overall plan-driven lifecycle of a software
                > product.
                >
                > Lets face it, most of the truly awe-inspiring case-studies of SCRUM
                > involve enlightened S/W development managers coming into dying
                > projects, reviving the projects using SCRUM and producing
                > deliverables "against all odds". If we can take a plan-driven
                > process like IEEE 12207, and use SCRUM in the development areas, we
                > can "save" projects before they even start. All of this while
                > ensuring that government program managers have enough documents to
                > show progress in thier projects.
                >
                > In the end, we can keep our developers highly productive while saving
                > them from the production of mindless documents. Note, I didn't
                > say "mindless documentation". To most of my customers, there is no
                > such thing as "self-documenting" code and clear documentation is
                > required before we get paid.
                >
                > Good debate. Now, has anyone actually used SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                > together?
                >
                > Mike Van, PMP
                >
                > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Maurizio Tripi <mtripi@a...>
                > wrote:
                > > I'm sure that a good methodologist can fit 12207 into Scrum and
                > viceversa.
                > > Scrum outlines a general purpose process hence it can be used for
                > the
                > > primary,
                > > supporting and organizational life cycle processes. Scrum describes
                > how
                > > to control
                > > a process and you can choose what activities to follow.
                > > We could set up a number of parallel Scrums to implements all the
                > 12207
                > > processes.
                > > It's nice to see all that interest in standard life cycles.
                > >
                > > regards
                > > Maurizio
                > >
                > > xenomino wrote:
                > >
                > > > Maurizio,
                > > >
                > > > 12207 contains a large number of items that follow the
                > development of
                > > > a software item from pre-proposal activities through project
                > > > closure. There are 5 primary processes and 1 of which is
                > > > development. There are also a number sub-processes, each of which
                > > > can be mapped to parts of the SCRUM iterations. Also, there are 4
                > > > processes that are considered "organizational".
                > > >
                > > > The reason I state all of this is that I believe that SCRUM can
                > and
                > > > will easily fit within 12207 by mapping it to the development
                > primary
                > > > process and then map the sub-processes to individual SCRUM
                > portions.
                > > >
                > > > Mike Van, PMP
                > > >
                > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Maurizio Tripi
                > <mtripi@a...>
                > > > wrote:
                > > > > Hi mike,
                > > > > I think the targets of the ISO 12207 and the Scrum's are quite
                > > > different.
                > > > > ISO12207 describes processes, activities and tasks, however it
                > > > doesn't
                > > > > describe how to implements these processes. While Scrum
                > describes
                > > > an
                > > > > implementation of a process for controlling projects. That
                > > > process may
                > > > > be a (partial) implementation of the ISO 12207.
                > > > > I think it is possible to follow Scrum in such a way for it to
                > be
                > > > > compliant with
                > > > > ISO 12207, but is difficult to tell which one is included in the
                > > > other.
                > > > > Anyway it is an interesting issue: maybe considering Scrum to
                > be
                > > > 12207
                > > > > compliant
                > > > > may help some old fashioned managers to accept agile methods :-)
                > > > >
                > > > > Maurizio
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                > > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@e...
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                > > > click here
                > > >
                > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129ukq2qa/M=298184.5285298.6392945.300117
                > 6/D=groups/S=1707209021:HM/EXP=1092942886/A=2319501/R=0/SIG=11tq0u909/
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                > > >
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                > ------
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                > > >
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                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment/
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                > > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > > <mailto:scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
                > subject=Unsubscribe>
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                > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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              • Ron Jeffries
                ... There are no proven SWDev methodolgies . There never will be. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Some people take everything personally. -- Ron Jeffries
                Message 7 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
                  On Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 12:23:56 PM, xenomino wrote:

                  > IMHO, a proven SWDev methodology is long overdue in government
                  > contracting circles. The latest statistic I read stated that only
                  > 30% of all IT projects begun in Federal contracting actually produce
                  > thier intended products.

                  There are no "proven SWDev methodolgies". There never will be.

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  "Some people take everything personally." -- Ron Jeffries
                  "I do not!" -- Ann Anderson
                • xenomino
                  Ok Ron, I ll bite. What is your definition of proven s/w development methodology ? Mike Van, PMP ... only ... produce
                  Message 8 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
                    Ok Ron, I'll bite. What is your definition of "proven s/w
                    development methodology"?

                    Mike Van, PMP


                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries <jeffries@d...>
                    wrote:
                    > On Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 12:23:56 PM, xenomino wrote:
                    >
                    > > IMHO, a proven SWDev methodology is long overdue in government
                    > > contracting circles. The latest statistic I read stated that
                    only
                    > > 30% of all IT projects begun in Federal contracting actually
                    produce
                    > > thier intended products.
                    >
                    > There are no "proven SWDev methodolgies". There never will be.
                    >
                    > Ron Jeffries
                    > www.XProgramming.com
                    > "Some people take everything personally." -- Ron Jeffries
                    > "I do not!" -- Ann Anderson
                  • Ron Jeffries
                    ... I took the OP to be asking for a methodology which is proven to work, every time. There s no such thing. If the OP means proven to be written down
                    Message 9 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
                      On Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 2:35:27 PM, xenomino wrote:

                      > Ok Ron, I'll bite. What is your definition of "proven s/w
                      > development methodology"?

                      I took the OP to be asking for a methodology which is proven to work,
                      every time.

                      There's no such thing.

                      If the OP means "proven to be written down somewhere" then there are lots
                      of candidates.

                      Ron Jeffries
                      www.XProgramming.com
                      You are to act in the light of experience as guided by intelligence.
                      -- Nero Wolfe
                    • xenomino
                      ... are lots ... Ron, What I meant by proven was shown to be successful more often than not when used . Perhaps that is what I should have said instead of
                      Message 10 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
                        > If the OP means "proven to be written down somewhere" then there
                        are lots
                        > of candidates.
                        >

                        Ron,

                        What I meant by "proven" was "shown to be successful more often than
                        not when used". Perhaps that is what I should have said instead
                        of "proven s/w dev. process".

                        v/r,

                        Mike Van, PMP
                      • Steven Gordon
                        Mike, This criteria is still meaningless until you define success. If you can satisfactorily defined success, are you sure that achieving success %51 of the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
                          Mike,
                           
                          This criteria is still meaningless until you define success.
                           
                          If you can satisfactorily defined success, are you sure that achieving success %51 of the time is good enough?
                           
                          Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                          Manager, Software Factory
                          Arizona State University
                          PO Box 875506
                          Tempe, AZ 85287-9509
                          http://sf.asu.edu
                          (480)-727-6271
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:48 AM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207

                          > If the OP means "proven to be written down somewhere" then there
                          are lots
                          > of candidates.
                          >

                          Ron,

                          What I meant by "proven" was "shown to be successful more often than
                          not when used".  Perhaps that is what I should have said instead
                          of "proven s/w dev. process".

                          v/r,

                          Mike Van, PMP

                        • Mike Dwyer
                          SCRUM is a way of getting results in a variety of environments. If you choose to, you can embed SCRUM into any environment, task the team at 100%, and call for
                          Message 12 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004

                            SCRUM is a way of getting results in a variety of environments.

                            If you choose to, you can embed SCRUM into any environment, task the team at 100%, and call for deliverables in the equivalent of 30 business days.  (although you may find it better to do daily recurring tasks for each scrum and then call the parent task the Sprint). With a Review cycle of 4 hours at the end.)

                             

                            I have used SCRUM or its equivalent in Government, Commercial, and child rearing – it’s in the mindset not the method.

                             

                            -----------------------------------------

                            Mike Dwyer, CSM 

                            Program Manager – Information Technology

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@...]
                            Sent:
                            Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:24 PM
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207

                             

                            Maurizio,

                            IMHO, a proven SWDev methodology is long overdue in government
                            contracting circles.  The latest statistic I read stated that only
                            30% of all IT projects begun in Federal contracting actually produce
                            thier intended products.

                            A number of books point to political issues like the pursuit of
                            power, and lack of management commitment as the major reasons for
                            this trend.  However, I think the major reason for this is the
                            extremely risk-averse nature of government program managers who
                            oversee these projects.  They are simply not willing to bet thier
                            careers on a project whose development methodologies don't fall
                            within thier myopic plan-driven "standards".  What my paper tries to
                            prove is that you CAN use a tried and tested agile S/W development
                            process within the overall plan-driven lifecycle of a software
                            product. 

                            Lets face it, most of the truly awe-inspiring case-studies of SCRUM
                            involve enlightened S/W development managers coming into dying
                            projects, reviving the projects using SCRUM and producing
                            deliverables "against all odds".  If we can take a plan-driven
                            process like IEEE 12207, and use SCRUM in the development areas, we
                            can "save" projects before they even start.  All of this while
                            ensuring that government program managers have enough documents to
                            show progress in thier projects.

                            In the end, we can keep our developers highly productive while saving
                            them from the production of mindless documents. Note, I didn't
                            say "mindless documentation".  To most of my customers, there is no
                            such thing as "self-documenting" code and clear documentation is
                            required before we get paid.

                            Good debate.  Now, has anyone actually used SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                            together?

                            Mike Van, PMP

                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Maurizio Tripi <mtripi@a...>
                            wrote:
                            > I'm sure that a good methodologist can fit 12207 into Scrum and
                            viceversa.
                            > Scrum outlines a general purpose process hence it can be used for
                            the
                            > primary,
                            > supporting and organizational life cycle processes. Scrum describes
                            how
                            > to control
                            > a process and you can choose what activities to follow.
                            > We could set up a number of parallel Scrums to implements all the
                            12207
                            > processes.
                            > It's nice to see all that interest in standard life cycles.
                            >
                            > regards
                            > Maurizio
                            >
                            > xenomino wrote:
                            >
                            > > Maurizio,
                            > >
                            > > 12207 contains a large number of items that follow the
                            development of
                            > > a software item from pre-proposal activities through project
                            > > closure.  There are 5 primary processes and 1 of which is
                            > > development.  There are also a number sub-processes, each of which
                            > > can be mapped to parts of the SCRUM iterations.  Also, there are 4
                            > > processes that are considered "organizational".
                            > >
                            > > The reason I state all of this is that I believe that SCRUM can
                            and
                            > > will easily fit within 12207 by mapping it to the development
                            primary
                            > > process and then map the sub-processes to individual SCRUM
                            portions.
                            > >
                            > > Mike Van, PMP
                            > >
                            > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Maurizio Tripi
                            <mtripi@a...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > > Hi mike,
                            > > > I think the targets of the ISO 12207 and the Scrum's are quite
                            > > different.
                            > > > ISO12207 describes processes, activities and tasks, however it
                            > > doesn't
                            > > > describe how to implements these processes.  While Scrum
                            describes
                            > > an
                            > > > implementation of a process for controlling   projects. That
                            > > process may
                            > > > be a (partial) implementation of the ISO 12207.
                            > > > I think it is possible to follow Scrum in such a way for it to
                            be
                            > > > compliant with
                            > > > ISO 12207, but is difficult to tell which one is included in the
                            > > other.
                            > > > Anyway it is an interesting issue: maybe considering  Scrum to
                            be
                            > > 12207
                            > > > compliant
                            > > > may help some old fashioned managers to accept agile methods :-)
                            > > >
                            > > > Maurizio
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
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                          • xenomino
                            Steve, I would use the following to define success on a S/W development project: a) on time, b) on budget, c) meets requirements, d) accepted by the customer.
                            Message 13 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
                              Steve,

                              I would use the following to define success on a S/W development
                              project:

                              a) on time,
                              b) on budget,
                              c) meets requirements,
                              d) accepted by the customer.

                              In fact, those are fairly good success criteria for any project.

                              Mike Van, PMP


                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                              <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                              > Mike,
                              >
                              > This criteria is still meaningless until you define success.
                              >
                              > If you can satisfactorily defined success, are you sure that
                              achieving success %51 of the time is good enough?
                              >
                              > Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                              > Manager, Software Factory
                              > Arizona State University
                              > PO Box 875506
                              > Tempe, AZ 85287-9509
                              > http://sf.asu.edu <http://sf.asu.edu/>
                              > (480)-727-6271
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                              > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:48 AM
                              > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                              >
                              >
                              > > If the OP means "proven to be written down somewhere" then there
                              > are lots
                              > > of candidates.
                              > >
                              >
                              > Ron,
                              >
                              > What I meant by "proven" was "shown to be successful more often
                              than
                              > not when used". Perhaps that is what I should have said instead
                              > of "proven s/w dev. process".
                              >
                              > v/r,
                              >
                              > Mike Van, PMP
                            • Mike Dwyer
                              The only one that counts is D If my memory serves me from my PMI days the PMBOK describes a successful project as one the followed the plan. However, there
                              Message 14 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004

                                The only one that counts is D

                                 

                                 

                                If my memory serves me from my PMI days the PMBOK describes a successful project as one the followed the plan.  

                                 

                                However, there seems to be little correlation between the fact that well over half of the s/w projects fail to deliver and the number of projects that fail.

                                 

                                Therefore I stopped sending my $100.00 a year (plus local dues) to PMI (a non profit institution) and chose not to spend $2500.00 to take the PMP.

                                 

                                As I said earlier, SCRUM and Agile are a mindset not a method.  This is the difference between PMBOK and Agile.

                                 

                                When customers accept something that does the job they want done, the rest of the issues go away. 

                                 

                                Except for the auditors who make their living touring the battlefield and shooting the survivors.

                                 

                                 

                                -----------------------------------------

                                Mike Dwyer

                                Program Manager – Information Technology

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@...]
                                Sent:
                                Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:17 PM
                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207

                                 

                                Steve,

                                I would use the following to define success on a S/W development
                                project:

                                a) on time,
                                b) on budget,
                                c) meets requirements,
                                d) accepted by the customer.

                                In fact, those are fairly good success criteria for any project.

                                Mike Van, PMP


                                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                > Mike,

                                > This criteria is still meaningless until you define success.

                                > If you can satisfactorily defined success, are you sure that
                                achieving success %51 of the time is good enough?

                                > Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                                > Manager, Software Factory
                                > Arizona State University
                                > PO Box 875506
                                > Tempe, AZ 85287-9509
                                > http://sf.asu.edu <http://sf.asu.edu/
                                > (480)-727-6271
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:48 AM
                                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                >
                                >
                                > > If the OP means "proven to be written down somewhere" then there
                                > are lots
                                > > of candidates.
                                > >
                                >
                                > Ron,
                                >
                                > What I meant by "proven" was "shown to be successful more often
                                than
                                > not when used".  Perhaps that is what I should have said instead
                                > of "proven s/w dev. process".
                                >
                                > v/r,
                                >
                                > Mike Van, PMP



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                              • xenomino
                                Mike, Trust me, I m no PMI apologist, but things have changed quite a bit over the last 10 years. For example, now the PMP test only costs $400 for members.
                                Message 15 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
                                  Mike,

                                  Trust me, I'm no PMI apologist, but things have changed quite a bit
                                  over the last 10 years. For example, now the PMP test only costs
                                  $400 for members. But I digress.

                                  I would agree that getting a product accepted is the only thing that
                                  really matters. But a - c are good indicators to use along to way
                                  to see if you're on track.

                                  The major difference between PMI and Agile, is that PMI directs all
                                  of its attention toward the business processes that must be followed
                                  on projects irrespective of the application. That is why infotech
                                  PM's use the same high-level tools that the construction guys use
                                  (WBS', EV, etc).

                                  All of that is good for the PM profession, but as one of the troops
                                  on the ground I like the fact that I can point to SCRUM and show my
                                  customers exactly where it has worked and when. For me, that is what
                                  SCRUM provides, a methodology that I know will work in my area of
                                  application.

                                  Mike Van, PMP

                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@s...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > The only one that counts is D
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > If my memory serves me from my PMI days the PMBOK describes a
                                  successful
                                  > project as one the followed the plan.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > However, there seems to be little correlation between the fact that
                                  well
                                  > over half of the s/w projects fail to deliver and the number of
                                  projects
                                  > that fail.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Therefore I stopped sending my $100.00 a year (plus local dues) to
                                  PMI (a
                                  > non profit institution) and chose not to spend $2500.00 to take the
                                  PMP.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > As I said earlier, SCRUM and Agile are a mindset not a method.
                                  This is the
                                  > difference between PMBOK and Agile.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > When customers accept something that does the job they want done,
                                  the rest
                                  > of the issues go away.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Except for the auditors who make their living touring the
                                  battlefield and
                                  > shooting the survivors.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Mike Dwyer
                                  >
                                  > Program Manager - Information Technology
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                  > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:17 PM
                                  > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Steve,
                                  >
                                  > I would use the following to define success on a S/W development
                                  > project:
                                  >
                                  > a) on time,
                                  > b) on budget,
                                  > c) meets requirements,
                                  > d) accepted by the customer.
                                  >
                                  > In fact, those are fairly good success criteria for any project.
                                  >
                                  > Mike Van, PMP
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                  > <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                  > > Mike,
                                  > >
                                  > > This criteria is still meaningless until you define success.
                                  > >
                                  > > If you can satisfactorily defined success, are you sure that
                                  > achieving success %51 of the time is good enough?
                                  > >
                                  > > Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                                  > > Manager, Software Factory
                                  > > Arizona State University
                                  > > PO Box 875506
                                  > > Tempe, AZ 85287-9509
                                  > > http://sf.asu.edu <http://sf.asu.edu/>
                                  > > (480)-727-6271
                                  > >
                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                  > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:48 AM
                                  > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > If the OP means "proven to be written down somewhere" then
                                  there
                                  > > are lots
                                  > > > of candidates.
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Ron,
                                  > >
                                  > > What I meant by "proven" was "shown to be successful more often
                                  > than
                                  > > not when used". Perhaps that is what I should have said instead
                                  > > of "proven s/w dev. process".
                                  > >
                                  > > v/r,
                                  > >
                                  > > Mike Van, PMP
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@e...
                                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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                                • Steven Gordon
                                  So, if the customer loves the software and makes lots of money with it despite it being late and over budget and not fulfilling all the initial requirements,
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
                                    So, if the customer loves the software and makes lots of money with it despite it being late and over budget and not fulfilling all the initial requirements, then the project would still be considered a failure?
                                     
                                    And if it was on time and on budget and the customer accepted the software because it really did fulfill the given requirements, but nobody ever used the software for one reason or another, then the project would still be considered a success?
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@...]
                                    Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:17 PM
                                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207

                                    Steve,

                                    I would use the following to define success on a S/W development
                                    project:

                                    a) on time,
                                    b) on budget,
                                    c) meets requirements,
                                    d) accepted by the customer.

                                    In fact, those are fairly good success criteria for any project.

                                    Mike Van, PMP


                                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                    <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                    > Mike,

                                    > This criteria is still meaningless until you define success.

                                    > If you can satisfactorily defined success, are you sure that
                                    achieving success %51 of the time is good enough?

                                    > Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                                    > Manager, Software Factory
                                    > Arizona State University
                                    > PO Box 875506
                                    > Tempe, AZ 85287-9509
                                    > http://sf.asu.edu <http://sf.asu.edu/
                                    > (480)-727-6271
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                    > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:48 AM
                                    > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > If the OP means "proven to be written down somewhere" then there
                                    > are lots
                                    > > of candidates.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > Ron,
                                    >
                                    > What I meant by "proven" was "shown to be successful more often
                                    than
                                    > not when used".  Perhaps that is what I should have said instead
                                    > of "proven s/w dev. process".
                                    >
                                    > v/r,
                                    >
                                    > Mike Van, PMP

                                  • xenomino
                                    You bring up good points. What would your definition of success be? Mike Van, PMP ... it despite it being late and over budget and not fulfilling all the
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
                                      You bring up good points. What would your definition of success be?

                                      Mike Van, PMP


                                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                      <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                      > So, if the customer loves the software and makes lots of money with
                                      it despite it being late and over budget and not fulfilling all the
                                      initial requirements, then the project would still be considered a
                                      failure?
                                      >
                                      > And if it was on time and on budget and the customer accepted the
                                      software because it really did fulfill the given requirements, but
                                      nobody ever used the software for one reason or another, then the
                                      project would still be considered a success?
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                      > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:17 PM
                                      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Steve,
                                      >
                                      > I would use the following to define success on a S/W development
                                      > project:
                                      >
                                      > a) on time,
                                      > b) on budget,
                                      > c) meets requirements,
                                      > d) accepted by the customer.
                                      >
                                      > In fact, those are fairly good success criteria for any project.
                                      >
                                      > Mike Van, PMP
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                      > <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                      > > Mike,
                                      > >
                                      > > This criteria is still meaningless until you define success.
                                      > >
                                      > > If you can satisfactorily defined success, are you sure that
                                      > achieving success %51 of the time is good enough?
                                      > >
                                      > > Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                                      > > Manager, Software Factory
                                      > > Arizona State University
                                      > > PO Box 875506
                                      > > Tempe, AZ 85287-9509
                                      > > http://sf.asu.edu < http://sf.asu.edu/>
                                      > > (480)-727-6271
                                      > >
                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:48 AM
                                      > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > > If the OP means "proven to be written down somewhere" then
                                      there
                                      > > are lots
                                      > > > of candidates.
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Ron,
                                      > >
                                      > > What I meant by "proven" was "shown to be successful more often
                                      > than
                                      > > not when used". Perhaps that is what I should have said instead
                                      > > of "proven s/w dev. process".
                                      > >
                                      > > v/r,
                                      > >
                                      > > Mike Van, PMP
                                    • Steven Gordon
                                      Customer satisfaction. Which leads to the single largest success factor being the setting of realistic customer expectations from the beginning of the project,
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
                                        Customer satisfaction.
                                         
                                        Which leads to the single largest success factor being the setting of realistic customer expectations from the beginning of the project, regardless of what process you follow (or pretend to follow).
                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@...]
                                        Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 1:17 PM
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207

                                        You bring up good points. What would your definition of success be?

                                        Mike Van, PMP


                                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                        <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                        > So, if the customer loves the software and makes lots of money with
                                        it despite it being late and over budget and not fulfilling all the
                                        initial requirements, then the project would still be considered a
                                        failure?

                                        > And if it was on time and on budget and the customer accepted the
                                        software because it really did fulfill the given requirements, but
                                        nobody ever used the software for one reason or another, then the
                                        project would still be considered a success?
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                        > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:17 PM
                                        > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Steve,
                                        >
                                        > I would use the following to define success on a S/W development
                                        > project:
                                        >
                                        > a) on time,
                                        > b) on budget,
                                        > c) meets requirements,
                                        > d) accepted by the customer.
                                        >
                                        > In fact, those are fairly good success criteria for any project.
                                        >
                                        > Mike Van, PMP
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                        > <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                        > > Mike,
                                        > > 
                                        > > This criteria is still meaningless until you define success.
                                        > > 
                                        > > If you can satisfactorily defined success, are you sure that
                                        > achieving success %51 of the time is good enough?
                                        > > 
                                        > > Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                                        > > Manager, Software Factory
                                        > > Arizona State University
                                        > > PO Box 875506
                                        > > Tempe, AZ 85287-9509
                                        > > http://sf.asu.edu < http://sf.asu.edu/
                                        > > (480)-727-6271
                                        > >
                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                        > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:48 AM
                                        > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > If the OP means "proven to be written down somewhere" then
                                        there
                                        > > are lots
                                        > > > of candidates.
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Ron,
                                        > >
                                        > > What I meant by "proven" was "shown to be successful more often
                                        > than
                                        > > not when used".  Perhaps that is what I should have said instead
                                        > > of "proven s/w dev. process".
                                        > >
                                        > > v/r,
                                        > >
                                        > > Mike Van, PMP



                                        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                                        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



                                      • xenomino
                                        By customer, are you including the end-user also? Mike Van, PMP ... of realistic customer expectations from the beginning of the project, regardless of what
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
                                          By customer, are you including the end-user also?

                                          Mike Van, PMP

                                          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                          <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                          > Customer satisfaction.
                                          >
                                          > Which leads to the single largest success factor being the setting
                                          of realistic customer expectations from the beginning of the project,
                                          regardless of what process you follow (or pretend to follow).
                                          >
                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                          > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 1:17 PM
                                          > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > You bring up good points. What would your definition of success be?
                                          >
                                          > Mike Van, PMP
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                          > <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                          > > So, if the customer loves the software and makes lots of money
                                          with
                                          > it despite it being late and over budget and not fulfilling all the
                                          > initial requirements, then the project would still be considered a
                                          > failure?
                                          > >
                                          > > And if it was on time and on budget and the customer accepted the
                                          > software because it really did fulfill the given requirements, but
                                          > nobody ever used the software for one reason or another, then the
                                          > project would still be considered a success?
                                          > >
                                          > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                          > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:17 PM
                                          > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Steve,
                                          > >
                                          > > I would use the following to define success on a S/W development
                                          > > project:
                                          > >
                                          > > a) on time,
                                          > > b) on budget,
                                          > > c) meets requirements,
                                          > > d) accepted by the customer.
                                          > >
                                          > > In fact, those are fairly good success criteria for any project.
                                          > >
                                          > > Mike Van, PMP
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                          > > <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                          > > > Mike,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > This criteria is still meaningless until you define success.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > If you can satisfactorily defined success, are you sure that
                                          > > achieving success %51 of the time is good enough?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                                          > > > Manager, Software Factory
                                          > > > Arizona State University
                                          > > > PO Box 875506
                                          > > > Tempe, AZ 85287-9509
                                          > > > http://sf.asu.edu < http://sf.asu.edu/>
                                          > > > (480)-727-6271
                                          > > >
                                          > > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                          > > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:48 AM
                                          > > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > > If the OP means "proven to be written down somewhere" then
                                          > there
                                          > > > are lots
                                          > > > > of candidates.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Ron,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > What I meant by "proven" was "shown to be successful more often
                                          > > than
                                          > > > not when used". Perhaps that is what I should have said
                                          instead
                                          > > > of "proven s/w dev. process".
                                          > > >
                                          > > > v/r,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Mike Van, PMP
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                        • Steven Gordon
                                          Pragmatically, we need to satisfy whoever is paying for the project, but their satisfaction is normally highly correlated to the satisfaction of the direct
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
                                            Pragmatically, we need to satisfy whoever is paying for the project, but their satisfaction is normally highly correlated to the satisfaction of the direct customers for the development team as well as the ultimate end users of the software.  If the correlation is not so high, we are likely in a no-win situation.  
                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@...]
                                            Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 1:33 PM
                                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207

                                            By customer, are you including the end-user also?

                                            Mike Van, PMP

                                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                            <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                            > Customer satisfaction.

                                            > Which leads to the single largest success factor being the setting
                                            of realistic customer expectations from the beginning of the project,
                                            regardless of what process you follow (or pretend to follow).
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                            > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 1:17 PM
                                            > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > You bring up good points. What would your definition of success be?
                                            >
                                            > Mike Van, PMP
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                            > <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                            > > So, if the customer loves the software and makes lots of money
                                            with
                                            > it despite it being late and over budget and not fulfilling all the
                                            > initial requirements, then the project would still be considered a
                                            > failure?
                                            > > 
                                            > > And if it was on time and on budget and the customer accepted the
                                            > software because it really did fulfill the given requirements, but
                                            > nobody ever used the software for one reason or another, then the
                                            > project would still be considered a success?
                                            > >
                                            > > -----Original Message-----
                                            > > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                            > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:17 PM
                                            > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Steve,
                                            > >
                                            > > I would use the following to define success on a S/W development
                                            > > project:
                                            > >
                                            > > a) on time,
                                            > > b) on budget,
                                            > > c) meets requirements,
                                            > > d) accepted by the customer.
                                            > >
                                            > > In fact, those are fairly good success criteria for any project.
                                            > >
                                            > > Mike Van, PMP
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                            > > <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                            > > > Mike,
                                            > > > 
                                            > > > This criteria is still meaningless until you define success.
                                            > > > 
                                            > > > If you can satisfactorily defined success, are you sure that
                                            > > achieving success %51 of the time is good enough?
                                            > > > 
                                            > > > Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                                            > > > Manager, Software Factory
                                            > > > Arizona State University
                                            > > > PO Box 875506
                                            > > > Tempe, AZ 85287-9509
                                            > > > http://sf.asu.edu < http://sf.asu.edu/
                                            > > > (480)-727-6271
                                            > > >
                                            > > > -----Original Message-----
                                            > > > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                            > > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:48 AM
                                            > > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > > If the OP means "proven to be written down somewhere" then
                                            > there
                                            > > > are lots
                                            > > > > of candidates.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Ron,
                                            > > >
                                            > > > What I meant by "proven" was "shown to be successful more often
                                            > > than
                                            > > > not when used".  Perhaps that is what I should have said
                                            instead
                                            > > > of "proven s/w dev. process".
                                            > > >
                                            > > > v/r,
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Mike Van, PMP
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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                                          • Ron Jeffries
                                            ... Same answer. There is no proven methodology. Wish there were. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Adapt, improvise, overcome. --Gunnery Sergeant Tom Highway
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
                                              On Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 2:47:35 PM, xenomino wrote:

                                              > What I meant by "proven" was "shown to be successful more often than
                                              > not when used". Perhaps that is what I should have said instead
                                              > of "proven s/w dev. process".

                                              Same answer. There is no proven methodology. Wish there were.

                                              Ron Jeffries
                                              www.XProgramming.com
                                              Adapt, improvise, overcome.
                                              --Gunnery Sergeant Tom Highway (Heartbreak Ridge)
                                            • Dan Rawsthorne
                                              Quality software that the users find suitable, and that the business owner was willing to pay for. Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant www.netobjectives.com
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004
                                                Quality software that the users find suitable, and that the business
                                                owner was willing to pay for.

                                                Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, Sr. Consultant
                                                www.netobjectives.com
                                                DrDan@...
                                                office: 425-269-8628

                                                Net Objectives' vision is effective software development without
                                                suffering. Our mission is to assist software development teams in
                                                accomplishing this through a combination of training and mentoring.


                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@...]
                                                > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 1:17 PM
                                                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                                >
                                                > You bring up good points. What would your definition of success be?
                                                >
                                                > Mike Van, PMP
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                                > <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                                > > So, if the customer loves the software and makes lots of money with
                                                > it despite it being late and over budget and not fulfilling all the
                                                > initial requirements, then the project would still be considered a
                                                > failure?
                                                > >
                                                > > And if it was on time and on budget and the customer accepted the
                                                > software because it really did fulfill the given requirements, but
                                                > nobody ever used the software for one reason or another, then the
                                                > project would still be considered a success?
                                                > >
                                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                                > > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                                > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:17 PM
                                                > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Steve,
                                                > >
                                                > > I would use the following to define success on a S/W development
                                                > > project:
                                                > >
                                                > > a) on time,
                                                > > b) on budget,
                                                > > c) meets requirements,
                                                > > d) accepted by the customer.
                                                > >
                                                > > In fact, those are fairly good success criteria for any project.
                                                > >
                                                > > Mike Van, PMP
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                                > > <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                                > > > Mike,
                                                > > >
                                                > > > This criteria is still meaningless until you define success.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > If you can satisfactorily defined success, are you sure that
                                                > > achieving success %51 of the time is good enough?
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                                                > > > Manager, Software Factory
                                                > > > Arizona State University
                                                > > > PO Box 875506
                                                > > > Tempe, AZ 85287-9509
                                                > > > http://sf.asu.edu < http://sf.asu.edu/>
                                                > > > (480)-727-6271
                                                > > >
                                                > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                > > > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                                > > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:48 AM
                                                > > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > If the OP means "proven to be written down somewhere" then
                                                > there
                                                > > > are lots
                                                > > > > of candidates.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Ron,
                                                > > >
                                                > > > What I meant by "proven" was "shown to be successful more often
                                                > > than
                                                > > > not when used". Perhaps that is what I should have said instead
                                                > > > of "proven s/w dev. process".
                                                > > >
                                                > > > v/r,
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Mike Van, PMP
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
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                                              • Mike Dwyer
                                                MikeV: I beg to differ on a - c. a) on time, When the team delivers functionality (something that can be used) every 30 days. The concept of time shifts from
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Aug 19, 2004

                                                  MikeV:

                                                  I beg to differ on a – c.

                                                  a) on time,      

                                                  When the team delivers functionality (something that can be used) every 30 days.  The concept of time shifts from when will it be done to - this is what do I need next now that I have this thing you showed me today.


                                                  > b) on budget, When we deliver something the customer can use then they are seeing a return, part of the return can be made available when . . . . (wait for the drum roll)

                                                  THE REQUIREMENTS CHANGE!!!  This is because the customer has a better idea what they want due to the fact they have some of the most important stuff working.  Ergo the Product backlog is a great indicator of the product’s acceptance.


                                                  > c) meets requirements,  This may be the least important item in the list -  as lack of change should make you start wondering if 1) anybody is really using the stuff you delivered or 2) These are aliens.

                                                   

                                                  This leaves you with D.
                                                  > d) accepted by the customer.

                                                  -----------------------------------------

                                                  Mike Dwyer

                                                  Program Manager – Information Technology

                                                   

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@...]
                                                  Sent:
                                                  Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:49 PM
                                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207

                                                   

                                                  Mike,

                                                  Trust me, I'm no PMI apologist, but things have changed quite a bit
                                                  over the last 10 years.  For example, now the PMP test only costs
                                                  $400 for members.  But I digress.

                                                  I would agree that getting a product accepted is the only thing that
                                                  really  matters.  But a - c are good indicators to use along to way
                                                  to see if you're on track.

                                                  The major difference between PMI and Agile, is that PMI directs all
                                                  of its attention toward the business processes that must be followed
                                                  on projects irrespective of the application.  That is why infotech
                                                  PM's use the same high-level tools that the construction guys use
                                                  (WBS', EV, etc).

                                                  All of that is good for the PM profession, but as one of the troops
                                                  on the ground I like the fact that I can point to SCRUM and show my
                                                  customers exactly where it has worked and when.  For me, that is what
                                                  SCRUM provides, a methodology that I know will work in my area of
                                                  application.

                                                  Mike Van, PMP

                                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@s...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  > The only one that counts is D
                                                  >

                                                  >

                                                  >
                                                  > If my memory serves me from my PMI days the PMBOK describes a
                                                  successful
                                                  > project as one the followed the plan. 
                                                  >

                                                  >
                                                  > However, there seems to be little correlation between the fact that
                                                  well
                                                  > over half of the s/w projects fail to deliver and the number of
                                                  projects
                                                  > that fail.
                                                  >

                                                  >
                                                  > Therefore I stopped sending my $100.00 a year (plus local dues) to
                                                  PMI (a
                                                  > non profit institution) and chose not to spend $2500.00 to take the
                                                  PMP.
                                                  >

                                                  >
                                                  > As I said earlier, SCRUM and Agile are a mindset not a method. 
                                                  This is the
                                                  > difference between PMBOK and Agile.
                                                  >

                                                  >
                                                  > When customers accept something that does the job they want done,
                                                  the rest
                                                  > of the issues go away. 
                                                  >

                                                  >
                                                  > Except for the auditors who make their living touring the
                                                  battlefield and
                                                  > shooting the survivors.
                                                  >

                                                  >

                                                  >
                                                  > -----------------------------------------
                                                  >
                                                  > Mike Dwyer
                                                  >
                                                  > Program Manager - Information Technology
                                                  >
                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                                  > Sent:
                                                  Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:17 PM
                                                  > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                                  >

                                                  >
                                                  > Steve,
                                                  >
                                                  > I would use the following to define success on a S/W development
                                                  > project:
                                                  >
                                                  > a) on time,
                                                  > b) on budget,
                                                  > c) meets requirements,
                                                  > d) accepted by the customer.
                                                  >
                                                  > In fact, those are fairly good success criteria for any project.
                                                  >
                                                  > Mike Van, PMP
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                                  > <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                                  > > Mike,
                                                  > > 
                                                  > > This criteria is still meaningless until you define success.
                                                  > > 
                                                  > > If you can satisfactorily defined success, are you sure that
                                                  > achieving success %51 of the time is good enough?
                                                  > > 
                                                  > > Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                                                  > > Manager, Software Factory
                                                  > >
                                                  Arizona State University
                                                  > >
                                                  PO Box 875506
                                                  > >
                                                  Tempe, AZ 85287-9509
                                                  > > http://sf.asu.edu <http://sf.asu.edu/
                                                  > > (480)-727-6271
                                                  > >
                                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                                  > > Sent:
                                                  Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:48 AM
                                                  > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > If the OP means "proven to be written down somewhere" then
                                                  there
                                                  > > are lots
                                                  > > > of candidates.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Ron,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > What I meant by "proven" was "shown to be successful more often
                                                  > than
                                                  > > not when used".  Perhaps that is what I should have said instead
                                                  > > of "proven s/w dev. process".
                                                  > >
                                                  > > v/r,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Mike Van, PMP
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@e...
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                                                • Maurizio Tripi
                                                  Mike, excuse me, but on points a) b) c) d) you are not talking about ISO 12207, are you? 12207 is nice but it doesn t guarantee anything. In vagueness it is
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Aug 20, 2004
                                                    Mike,
                                                    excuse me, but on points a) b) c) d) you are not talking about ISO
                                                    12207, are you?
                                                    12207 is nice but it doesn't guarantee anything. In vagueness it is far
                                                    worse than
                                                    RUP in fact as nearly every SW dev process could be 12207 compliant
                                                    as RUP could include every process, from waterfall to XP.
                                                    IMHO it can be very useful as a checklist for a methodologist.
                                                    Let's put aside Agile Methods, we can compare 3rd generation methods
                                                    like Open and RUP with ISO 12207: there is a ratio of 1 to 100.
                                                    It's a Standard not a method. :-)

                                                    Maurizio

                                                    xenomino wrote:

                                                    > Steve,
                                                    >
                                                    > I would use the following to define success on a S/W development
                                                    > project:
                                                    >
                                                    > a) on time,
                                                    > b) on budget,
                                                    > c) meets requirements,
                                                    > d) accepted by the customer.
                                                    >
                                                    > In fact, those are fairly good success criteria for any project.
                                                    >
                                                    > Mike Van, PMP
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                                    > <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                                    > > Mike,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > This criteria is still meaningless until you define success.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > If you can satisfactorily defined success, are you sure that
                                                    > achieving success %51 of the time is good enough?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                                                    > > Manager, Software Factory
                                                    > > Arizona State University
                                                    > > PO Box 875506
                                                    > > Tempe, AZ 85287-9509
                                                    > > http://sf.asu.edu <http://sf.asu.edu/>
                                                    > > (480)-727-6271
                                                    > >
                                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > > From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@y...]
                                                    > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:48 AM
                                                    > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > If the OP means "proven to be written down somewhere" then there
                                                    > > are lots
                                                    > > > of candidates.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Ron,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > What I meant by "proven" was "shown to be successful more often
                                                    > than
                                                    > > not when used". Perhaps that is what I should have said instead
                                                    > > of "proven s/w dev. process".
                                                    > >
                                                    > > v/r,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Mike Van, PMP
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
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                                                  • David Roberts
                                                    I agree with you Steve but I d like to add that I think success is relative. I hear this all the time We successfully did this at my last company , I
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Aug 20, 2004

                                                      I agree with you Steve but I’d like to add that I think success is relative. I hear this all the time “We successfully did this at my last company”, I sometimes wonder, if you did the same thing twice as fast with half the people, would you still call it a success?

                                                       

                                                      I like defining success using Cockburn’s metaphor of the game. How do you answer if you’ve won the game? -> Would that customer hire you again?

                                                       

                                                      If you win the game, how we’ll did you prepare for the next game?

                                                       

                                                      So it comes down to, winning the game with continuous improvement.

                                                       

                                                      David Roberts

                                                      InnovaSystems

                                                      (619) 368-9621

                                                       


                                                      From: Steven Gordon [mailto:sagordon@...]
                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:58 AM
                                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207

                                                       

                                                      Mike,

                                                       

                                                      This criteria is still meaningless until you define success.

                                                       

                                                      If you can satisfactorily defined success, are you sure that achieving success %51 of the time is good enough?

                                                       

                                                      Steven A. Gordon, Ph.D.
                                                      Manager, Software Factory
                                                      Arizona State University
                                                      PO Box 875506
                                                      Tempe , AZ 85287-9509
                                                      http://sf.asu.edu
                                                      (480)-727-6271

                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: xenomino [mailto:xenomino@...]
                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:48 AM
                                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207

                                                      > If the OP means "proven to be written down somewhere" then there
                                                      are lots
                                                      > of candidates.
                                                      >

                                                      Ron,

                                                      What I meant by "proven" was "shown to be successful more often than
                                                      not when used".  Perhaps that is what I should have said instead
                                                      of "proven s/w dev. process".

                                                      v/r,

                                                      Mike Van, PMP



                                                      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                                                      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...




                                                    • David A Barrett
                                                      ... Actually; a), b) and c) are supposed to be the way to achieve d). That really is the art in project management: How to satify the customer. The PMI
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Aug 20, 2004
                                                        > a) on time,
                                                        > b) on budget,
                                                        > c) meets requirements,
                                                        > d) accepted by the customer.


                                                        Actually; a), b) and c) are supposed to be the way to achieve d).

                                                        That really is the art in project management: How to satify the customer.
                                                        The PMI approach is to say, "Well, if we are on time, on budget and on
                                                        scope the customer will be happy. After all, he (by definition) is getting
                                                        what he wants, when we agreed to complete it and at the agreed price".

                                                        On the face of it, there really isn't anything wrong with this and it all
                                                        seems fairly reasonable.

                                                        Where Scrum has issues with PMI is in item c). The PMI assumption is that
                                                        all of the requirements can be known at the beginning of the project. The
                                                        traditional approach has always said that is possible, and if you failed to
                                                        do this it was because you didn't expend enough effort in doing so, weren't
                                                        skilled in researching requirements or just made mistakes. All these
                                                        things can be solved by doing a better job collecting requirements.

                                                        Scrum introduces a sort of "Software Project Heisenberg Uncertainty
                                                        Principle". Basically, you can't know everything that the users will
                                                        eventually deem to be important to the project, and the act of performing
                                                        the project will change the requirements.


                                                        Dave Barrett,
                                                        Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
                                                      • Kevin Aguanno
                                                        Mike, I could adhere to all four of your criteria yet still have a failure. One of those you gave me what I initially asked for, but not what I needed
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Aug 23, 2004

                                                          Mike, I could adhere to all four of your criteria yet still have a failure.  One of those "you gave me what I initially asked for, but not what I needed" projects.  You know, where the customer is not knowledgable enough to specify the correct (or complete, or efficient, or ...) requirements.  Or perhaps where the customer did not speak with all of the required stakeholders to validate the requirements specified  (oops, we forgot to comply with government legislation!)

                                                          I find that the real measure of success requires knowledge of the "business case" of the project sponsor.  You need to understand the benefits derived from the product of the project, and the timing/quality parameters, and other assumptions that those benefits are based upon.  Only then can you negotiate/determine success.    Maybe being over budget is OK, if it brings in business value sooner.    Maybe being late is OK if it increases safety or increases service levels over those of a competitor.    You need to understand the business case, the "why" behind the decision to initiate the project.

                                                          Not all sponsors will share this, and not all sponsors have a well-documented business case.   Even discussing business benefits at this level requires a different set of skills and maturity (also trust) than many project managers and team leads normally possess.  However, I am convinced it is the *right* answer to the question.

                                                          Want to know more about tools/techniques/formulae for doing this?  Read "Total Project Control" by Stephen Devaux.  Available on Amazon.com.


                                                          ----------
                                                          Kevin J.J. Aguanno, PMPĀ®, MAPM
                                                          IBM Certified Senior Project Manager
                                                          Portals and Content Management Practice,
                                                          Application Innovation Services,
                                                          IBM Global Services,
                                                          IBM Canada Ltd.

                                                          Phone:  (905) 316-8966
                                                          Fax:       (905) 316-2535
                                                          Pager:   (416) 600-0794


                                                          Message: 6        
                                                            Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:16:33 -0000
                                                            From: "xenomino" <xenomino@...>
                                                          Subject: Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207

                                                          Steve,

                                                          I would use the following to define success on a S/W development
                                                          project:

                                                          a) on time,
                                                          b) on budget,
                                                          c) meets requirements,
                                                          d) accepted by the customer.

                                                          In fact, those are fairly good success criteria for any project.

                                                          Mike Van, PMP
                                                        • Kevin Aguanno
                                                          ... Mike, just checked my PMBoK Guide (admittedly only the 1996 version -- but I don t believe this changed in the latest edition) and there is **NO DEFINITION
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Aug 23, 2004
                                                            >From: Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
                                                            >Subject: RE: Re: SCRUM and IEEE 12207
                                                            >
                                                            >If my memory serves me from my PMI days the PMBOK describes a successful
                                                            >project as one the followed the plan.  


                                                            Mike, just checked my PMBoK Guide (admittedly only the 1996 version -- but I don't believe this changed in the latest edition) and there is **NO DEFINITION OF SUCCESS**.  The closest that it comes to is in section 1.3 where it states that the purpose of project management is

                                                            "to meet or exceed stakeholder needs and expections from a project.  Meeting or exceeding stakeholder needs and expectations invariably involves balancing competing demands among:
                                                            * Scope, time, cost, and quality.
                                                            * Stakeholders with differing needs and expectations.
                                                            * Identified requirements (needs) and unidentified requirements (expectations)."


                                                            Those who know me would find it amusing that I am 'defending' PMI; however, I *do* get frustrated when I find those who attack the PMBoK Guide without fully understanding what it is, and what it is intended to do.  Even many "PMI supporters" misunderstand the intent of the publication, and see it as describing some type of PM method.  This is far from accurate, and leads to many misperceptions.  In fact, the PMBoK Guide illustrates in figure 2-5 (1996 edition) iterative/incremental development.   Additionally, there is nothing in the book (I know as I have studied it and have communicated with its primary author Bill Duncan on this very topic) that precludes agile methods being used on projects.  



                                                            ----------
                                                            Kevin J.J. Aguanno, PMPĀ®, MAPM
                                                            IBM Certified Senior Project Manager
                                                            Portals and Content Management Practice,
                                                            Application Innovation Services,
                                                            IBM Global Services,
                                                            IBM Canada Ltd.

                                                            Phone:  (905) 316-8966
                                                            Fax:       (905) 316-2535
                                                            Pager:   (416) 600-0794


                                                          • Mike Cohn
                                                            Mike-- Have you finished this paper or do you have a draft of it available anywhere? If so, I d love to see it. --Mike
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Jan 30, 2005
                                                              Mike--
                                                              Have you finished this paper or do you have a draft of it available
                                                              anywhere? If so, I'd love to see it.

                                                              --Mike

                                                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "xenomino" <xenomino@y...> wrote:
                                                              > Hi all!
                                                              >
                                                              > I'm preparing an academic paper supporting the idea of using SCRUM as
                                                              > the software development process within the IEEE 12207 standard. In
                                                              > order to support the notion that this combination is effective, I was
                                                              > wondering if any of you could provide case-studies? Also, if anyone
                                                              > here has experience using these two processes together, I'd like to
                                                              > hear what you thought of the combination.
                                                              >
                                                              > v/r,
                                                              >
                                                              > Mike Van, PMP
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